PDA

View Full Version : Finished The Lost Archive - Discussion? [SPOILERS]



Nomad86x
02-29-2012, 05:28 AM
I thought, for those who would be interested, it would be nice to post a thread about anyone's thoughts about what we learned in the DLC, or didn't learn, depending on who you are.

Personally - the "Lucy" revelation was huge for me, because I thought three was more to it than what we found out.

But the literal enactment of the Loop, The End is the Beginning - for me it reminds me of the frequently inserted (moreso than the others at least) "Lorenz Attractor" glyph.

But what else is there in the DLC that intrigued you? Or didn't?

MaKaVeLiTL
02-29-2012, 06:15 AM
Possibly the worst, most pointless and most boring DLC ever released. I hope everyone boycotts it. I decided to watch it on youtube instead of buying it, not paying money for something which probably took them a few days to make with little effort. And what it reveals could have and should have been explained when the game was released. ACR should have been named "Assassins Creed: Revelations (but you'll have to wait another 3 months and pay extra money for any real revelations)"

PS well done for listening to the fans yet again Ubi, everyone loved that first person crap and couldn't wait for more!

DavisP92
02-29-2012, 06:43 AM
Possibly the worst, most pointless and most boring DLC ever released. I hope everyone boycotts it. I decided to watch it on youtube instead of buying it, not paying money for something which probably took them a few days to make with little effort. And what it reveals could have and should have been explained when the game was released. ACR should have been named "Assassins Creed: Revelations (but you'll have to wait another 3 months and pay extra money for any real revelations)"

PS well done for listening to the fans yet again Ubi, everyone loved that first person crap and couldn't wait for more!

where did you watch the dlc? i've been looking but i haven't seen it yet.

ac4ev
02-29-2012, 06:48 AM
where did you watch the dlc? i've been looking but i haven't seen it yet.

its on youtube
and yea this was a huge thing which should have been included in the game but instead they waste space with the multiplayer and desmond mission crap

twenty_glyphs
02-29-2012, 08:10 AM
I thought the DLC was kind of boring as well, though it was still somewhat interesting. At least it provided some of the mystique of mystery that Revelations itself was missing. It looks like we've found at least 3 secret messages so far, and there may be more (possibly one in each memory?).

But it still feels rather lazy when it comes to storytelling. The fact that it isn't incorporated into the game and just sits there in its own menu with no explanation just feels really lazy. Coupled with the fact that Desmond is in the Animus at the end of Revelations with no story explanation, it feels lazy compared to the rest of the series. The last two games at least had one line of dialogue that perfectly explained why Desmond was still in the Animus at the end. I'm still not even sure what exactly I just played in The Lost Archive. Was I Desmond viewing Subject 16's memories? Was I the Clay Kaczmarek Construct reliving his own memories?

There were some interesting things to come out of the new content. Subject 16's backstory was pretty good, and it showed that the Assassins and Templars are a little more cunning than we have seen in the modern day.

Lucy being a traitor is not a surprise at this point, and I'm glad they addressed it, but I wish they had foreshadowed it a little more instead of having it come completely out of left field. I guess perhaps they did, it was just very subtle. I still think she wasn't evil, she was just on the Templars' side. She still tried to protect Subject 16 and probably did feel bad about his death. She may have been having a change of heart in Brotherhood. One of the emails from William Miles to her in that game makes it sound like she's trying to get out of having Desmond recover the Apple, perhaps because she doesn't want to turn him back over to the Templars.

Either way, the DLC gives clarity to the last Chess puzzle in Brotherhood, where it says that every move has been accounted for and that it's the company's game. Desmond stabbing Lucy was the act of taking his king off the chess board and refusing to play by Abstergo's rules.

I guess the most interesting part of the DLC is that Juno contacted Subject 16 somehow and told him to help Desmond, which he eventually agreed to. I also noticed that the loading screen when you load The Lost Archive says "Fragmented Memory Located: Clay Kaczmarek" followed by "October 10, 2012". That's the day that Desmond met Juno and stabbed Lucy, 72 days before the moment of awakening. As for Juno's comment that they all must suffer as they did, I doubt it means she's evil. She could want the Templars to suffer, or perhaps humanity will have to suffer in order to gain knowledge — "he who increaseth knowledge also increaseth sorrow."

I also found it interesting that Adam's voice in Memory 5 was not Nolan North or Desmond. That gives something to think about in regards to the theory that the voice that says "Eve..." in The Truth video is Desmond and not Adam.

There were also some quotes at the end of Memory 4 that were interesting:


Italian Female: Dai nemici mi guardo io, dagli amici mi guardi Iddio
(God watch me among friends, that I may watch myself among enemies.)

La Fontaine: Rien ne pese rant qu'un secret.
(Nothing weighs on us so heavily as a secret.)

The Italian quote likely refers to Lucy, and who knows if more of La Fontaine's (famous French poet of the 1600s) writings will show up in a future game...

LightRey
02-29-2012, 09:06 AM
"They must all suffer as we suffered" - Juno

Who are "they" and for that matter who are "we" exactly?

masterfenix2009
02-29-2012, 10:16 AM
Oh, besides the fact it had the most cliche and boring plot twist ever, it was okay with gameplay and SOME backstory.

Zrvan
02-29-2012, 10:24 AM
I LOVE this dlc. Some actual revelations, for once. Learning Clay's backstory was a delight even if it was a little disjointed in the middle. I'm a little upset that he's far more likable than Desmond at this point, but Que sera. I love the puzzles and collectibles, didn't get everything on the first try but I usually felt like I was awesome when I got the solutions.

I still think there is reasonable doubt re: Lucy. That part happened on a stage, might have been staged for Clay's benefit. Either way, water under the bridge now.

I am left with questions, of course - how did Juno contact Clay? Through memories, as Minerva and Jupiter did, or directly, as with Brotherhood?

Also, I would like to say extra especial thanks for the Styx section and really all of the final sequence. That was awesome.

SDGR Blaze
02-29-2012, 01:27 PM
I didn't get the ending. In memory 7 u cross the river Styx which is in hell and then ur in this bright beautiful place which I think is heaven. So how do u cross Styx and get to heaven? Then the loop happens which I think Is like a limbo thing. Then when u break the loop clay writes a letter to his dad. I didn't get that. I still liked the dlc though.

Nomad86x
02-29-2012, 03:09 PM
I didn't get the ending. In memory 7 u cross the river Styx which is in hell and then ur in this bright beautiful place which I think is heaven. So how do u cross Styx and get to heaven? Then the loop happens which I think Is like a limbo thing. Then when u break the loop clay writes a letter to his dad. I didn't get that. I still liked the dlc though.

That's the bit I find most interesting is this loop analogy and I feel that there's something in that last sequence - his death(with the blood on the walls), the river Styx, and that mountain coupled with the falling cinematic - right before we reach that last gate...

But I go back to the Lorenz Attractor (& loop) again and again for me, because it appears over and over - please someone tell me I'm not just seeing it more because I'm just noticing it more than the others - it just shows up again and again in my mind - and that's a major plot hint - this DLC only reinforced it.
-As a glyph - it makes a number of appearances
-In the Brotherhood (#9/#10) glyph/message - it's revealed at the end of one of the puzzles
-On the door of the Vault in Brotherhood, when you use Eagle Vision as Desmond


But it still feels rather lazy when it comes to storytelling. The fact that it isn't incorporated into the game and just sits there in its own menu with no explanation just feels really lazy. Coupled with the fact that Desmond is in the Animus at the end of Revelations with no story explanation, it feels lazy compared to the rest of the series. The last two games at least had one line of dialogue that perfectly explained why Desmond was still in the Animus at the end. I'm still not even sure what exactly I just played in The Lost Archive. Was I Desmond viewing Subject 16's memories? Was I the Clay Kaczmarek Construct reliving his own memories?

That was the other portion that really perplexed me, because I could have sworn this DLC would use the two gates on Animus Island, and tie a bow on the singleplayer in that regard. It makes me wonder, is this just "looping" in some database somewhere, is it archived in the Animus and we're accessing it? Or is it Desmond accessing it as well? (Didn't seem so, we never heard any of his)

For me it's interesting because excluding this DLC - every other "revelation" we've had in this series we have experienced analogous to the main characters . . so this just raises a question for me - were they lazy? Or is this bonus insight? (I kinda doubt it and resent that idea, just because the thing I liked about the plot is that the characters discovered things as we did, we never had a moment of "Yea I knew that" - When Desmond says "What the ****?!" - I say what the ****?!) Was this portrayal intentional?

And of course there's the surprise that Juno contacted Clay - that's really interesting..

All in all, I loved this DLC, I know most people probably hated the whole Desmond Journey segments for various reasons, but those were probably my favorite.
Everyone seems to give really miffed about the fact that none of the original writers/creators are still around - but they've stated that the main head honcho who started with Assassin's Creed - essentially who guides the story - is still around - he just isn't with the company anymore if I recall - but he's still there, guiding the plot and the story - But also I think some of us feel the mystique of AC ebbing away simply because we're now seeing the big picture of the plot - whereas that mysterious "wtf" feeling doesn't happen at the end of ACI anymore, because we're just like..."Yea..we know..."

zerocooll21
02-29-2012, 04:47 PM
Either way, the DLC gives clarity to the last Chess puzzle in Brotherhood, where it says that every move has been accounted for and that it's the company's game. Desmond stabbing Lucy was the act of taking his king off the chess board and refusing to play by Abstergo's rules.

I guess the most interesting part of the DLC is that Juno contacted Subject 16 somehow and told him to help Desmond, which he eventually agreed to. I also noticed that the loading screen when you load The Lost Archive says "Fragmented Memory Located: Clay Kaczmarek" followed by "October 10, 2012". That's the day that Desmond met Juno and stabbed Lucy, 72 days before the moment of awakening. As for Juno's comment that they all must suffer as they did, I doubt it means she's evil. She could want the Templars to suffer, or perhaps humanity will have to suffer in order to gain knowledge — "he who increaseth knowledge also increaseth sorrow."



Good Stuff man :)

stefman6987
02-29-2012, 08:59 PM
It was ok, a bit anti climactic, i didn't really understand the relevance of clay writing the letter to his dad once you broke the loop.. What really interested me was on the loading screen it said "10th of october 2012"... clay died on august 8th... lucy was stabbed on that day aswell, maybe when desmond went into a coma, the archives were activated, that way desmond could see the truth about 16... but the problem with that theory is that we don't know from who's point of view where seeing it from :\ i think ubisoft messed up a tiny bit on this dlc.. but overall i liked it. wasn't any revelations though considering i saw the leaked audio -.-

oh and in memory 6 i found this code on a wall - "Oxfb, vkh lv dOzdbv ehklqg Brx" anyone else see this? i have no idea what it means :\

ShaneO7K
02-29-2012, 09:05 PM
It was ok, a bit anti climactic, i didn't really understand the relevance of clay writing the letter to his dad once you broke the loop.. What really interested me was on the loading screen it said "10th of october 2012"... clay died on august 8th... lucy was stabbed on that day aswell, maybe when desmond went into a coma, the archives were activated, that way desmond could see the truth about 16... but the problem with that theory is that we don't know from who's point of view where seeing it from :\ i think ubisoft messed up a tiny bit on this dlc.. but overall i liked it. wasn't any revelations though considering i saw the leaked audio -.-

oh and in memory 6 i found this code on a wall - "Oxfb, vkh lv dOzdbv ehklqg Brx" anyone else see this? i have no idea what it means :\

I thinks it says "Lucy, she is always behind you." and all the captial letters together say "LILY" I think.
For each letter you go back 3 letters.

Xandar11
02-29-2012, 09:14 PM
There was also a bit of braille during memory 5. It read "Truth is constructed from Lies" when sorted out. And I think dead_gunner187 is right, though I have no idea what it could mean by it... Anyone else find something off about Clay's mothers message? Something hidden perhaps?

Guess I will add all that I found through it... The greek letter Theta, which stands for the earth, was on one of the pillars in memory 5 as well. During Clay's freak out and the repeated rooms, The Gettysburg address is playing, along with a line from Fontaine: Nothing weighs so heavily on us as a secret, and a line in Italian: I can watch my enemy, so God watch my friends.

I thought the DLC is amazing, might explain alot if we can actually figure it out... I loved the first person part, it added an entire new area of immersion, which is something I enjoy about Assassin's Creed.

twenty_glyphs
02-29-2012, 09:20 PM
After thinking about it some more, it seems like the memories may have been from Clay's perspective. When he's sending the email to his dad after breaking the loop, you see "root access construct 'Clay Kaczmarek'" on the screen before a password is entered and the console says "Operation successful." The phrase "construct" makes me think that the Clay simulation that Desmond meets inside the Animus is what's going through the memories and the loop. It seems his simulation finally breaks the loop and then sends the email to his dad from within the Animus.

Perhaps The Lost Archive is the fragmented memories of Clay Kaczmarek that he broke apart and hid inside the Animus before he killed himself. Perhaps the Animus is saying that it located a fragmented memory on October 10, 2012. So maybe the canonical date that Desmond unlocked The Truth in Brotherhood was the same day that he discovered where the Apple was hidden, 10/10/2012. Perhaps executing the Truth file let Desmond meet Subject 16, who may not have been "whole" yet because he hadn't fully assimilated all his memories yet. Maybe Clay then got stuck in his own memory loop until he broke out, said goodbye to his dad, and went on to help Desmond in Revelations.

VacuusDeus
02-29-2012, 09:23 PM
It was ok, a bit anti climactic, i didn't really understand the relevance of clay writing the letter to his dad once you broke the loop.. What really interested me was on the loading screen it said "10th of october 2012"... clay died on august 8th... lucy was stabbed on that day aswell, maybe when desmond went into a coma, the archives were activated, that way desmond could see the truth about 16... but the problem with that theory is that we don't know from who's point of view where seeing it from :\ i think ubisoft messed up a tiny bit on this dlc.. but overall i liked it. wasn't any revelations though considering i saw the leaked audio -.-


I interpreted it as Clay looking back on his life, the way Desmond did in the main game. For my my hangup is when does LA take place? 10.10.12 is when Desmond entered his coma but Juno telling Clay to help Desmond seems like it places it after Revelations because Clay really hasn't helped Desmond all that much. His writings in the Animus room were nonsense to everyone but Clay, as were the Truth Files and Clusters.

Also the animus states in sequence 7 that "Clay Kaczmarek construct quarantined". So yeah, for me at least, I'm most curious when LA takes place.

Also, there are still two unused arches on Animus Island. I thought this DLC would fix that so maybe more SP DLC on the way?

zerocooll21
02-29-2012, 09:27 PM
After thinking about it some more, it seems like the memories may have been from Clay's perspective. When he's sending the email to his dad after breaking the loop, you see "root access construct 'Clay Kaczmarek'" on the screen before a password is entered and the console says "Operation successful." The phrase "construct" makes me think that the Clay simulation that Desmond meets inside the Animus is what's going through the memories and the loop. It seems his simulation finally breaks the loop and then sends the email to his dad from within the Animus.

Perhaps The Lost Archive is the fragmented memories of Clay Kaczmarek that he broke apart and hid inside the Animus before he killed himself. Perhaps the Animus is saying that it located a fragmented memory on October 10, 2012. So maybe the canonical date that Desmond unlocked The Truth in Brotherhood was the same day that he discovered where the Apple was hidden, 10/10/2012. Perhaps executing the Truth file let Desmond meet Subject 16, who may not have been "whole" yet because he hadn't fully assimilated all his memories yet. Maybe Clay then got stuck in his own memory loop until he broke out, said goodbye to his dad, and went on to help Desmond in Revelations.

YES. S16 did say he had do reconstruct his own fragmented memories to Desmond.

I just noticed something. I wanted to see the that loading screen again for the Lost Archive so I went back to the main menu and there was another loading screen like the one you see when Desmond gets yanked back to the black room. Any meaning?

twenty_glyphs
02-29-2012, 09:32 PM
YES. S16 did say he had do the same thing to Desmond.

I just noticed something. I wanted to see the that loading screen again for the Lost Archive so I went back to the main menu and there was another loading screen like the one you see when Desmond gets yanked back to the black room. Any meaning?

I think the loading screen when leaving The Lost Archive may be the same one that loads when Desmond finishes a Desmond's Journey mission. It may be saying that it's loading Desmond again, giving more evidence that The Lost Archive is played from Subject 16's perspective.

zerocooll21
02-29-2012, 09:36 PM
Gotcha, thanks.

dAnNyKiLlZ
02-29-2012, 11:13 PM
Looking back at AC2 when "Subject 16" tries to warn Desmond I recall him saying that we've been lied to this whole time. everything we know and everything we were bought up to believe, is wrong.. If he is speaking about the assassin order, did Lucy brainwash him or something?

NVM I THINK HE WAS SPEAKING ABOUT THE WORLD AND HOW ABSTERGO IS CONTROLLING THE WORLD.. TOO CONFUSING LOL SORRY.

Apirka
02-29-2012, 11:48 PM
I made notes while playing through it again. This is a bit tl;dr, so I bolded the stuff I think is especially important; there's also some random thoughts, character stuff and symbolism there that I'll leave in in case anyone is interested in that as well.

“Abstergo has experimented through their Animus project on 17 known est subjects. This is the story of Subject 16.” I can't be the only one who finds this intro odd, right?

Animus Island not only looks differently, but is already part of the this simulation instead of the normal Animus simulation. Hmm. And the gate is where the gate to Ezio's memories would be... And different from the Desmond gates.

And we start out grey! And with laughing. There's quite a bit of laughing later as well, I think. At least some of it reminds me of ACII and Brotherhood Clay... Is that audio taken from there? (Though why would they do that?)

William gives us orders and the colour turns on when we reach the funeral. I assume the prayer has to do with it being, well, a funeral, but does anyone know it? And if this is supposed to be like Desmond's Journey, why does apparently dead Clay remember his funeral? At least with the loop it makes somewhat sense to have that at the beginning.

Jumping in the grave gets the “You got hurt” effect (or however you would call it), but without the blocks we can't do anything about it. Colour is gone again.

“The End is only the Beginning” - Clay's funeral and in his grave we get child Clay talking.

Walking into the light and hearing those... heart beat measuring things from hospitals.

Birds. Appear later as well.

Dead end, only going back lets you proceed.

William again and we get the blocks, while the grey ones disappear. Clay doesn't need them any more because he has gotten stronger? (They're everywhere during “The Bleeding Effect”... but that's also where we break the loop.)

The stairs from memory seven (The loop?)

and then we get weird noises. And some mentor figure like advice.

“Knowledge grows only through challenge” in a room with a giant cross of light. Incidentally, I am reminded of Tadao Ando's Church of Light. The way the walls look – with the holes in the concrete – is rather Ando as well, though they are a bit too exact.

Harold is being an idiot and then William talks about obstacles. Not quite convinced they have something to do with each other, though it's a nice contrast between the two.

The first way shown leads right into one of those fields, keeping you out of the induction room. It's only accessible by going back and past more obstacles.

Room with the window from memory seven.

I wonder if there's anything concerning the red and blue blocks you can't touch – why different colours?

That last decipher fragment is evil.


[B]So Clay was already good enough to break into Abstergo and then get out? Must be an Assassin genius.

Room with the hole in the roof from mem 7.

Laughter again when you get to the first lasers. (I hate this room.)

The blocks become useless a lot throughout this level, and then there's the room when the grey ones show up, before you get the jump block. Hmm.

“Search for key cartographer ancestral DNA ongoing.” …?

Alarm goes off and Clay pulls a daring escape? Clearly, Abstergo is pretty **** bad at security.

“I'm counting on your help, Clay.” Assassin genius, I tell you.

“Ability deactivated.” I wonder why.

Sudden flashback of doom and daddy being a jerk. Looks a bit like a prison? (Bars on the doors.) That's a nice touch.

And we get to the psychiatrist. Who's also a jerk. Interestingly, Clay continued the therapy a few months after starting to work with the Assassins. And he apparently only met them in 2007. Since a later memory says Vidic experimented on him for over a year, he must have infiltrated Abstergo during 2011 at least. The memo says January 2008, so depending on how new it is, he already broke into Abstergo after what may be less than a year of training.


“Lucy Stillman. I know you're out there.” That's an odd line.

The first path you see in the big room where the grey blocks... block the hole in the ground is protected by one of those fields.

“His readings aren't normal, Miss Stillman.” - “Are you there, Clay? Remember, stick to the mission.” The way Clay says “Lucy” is odd.

The ability is deactivated just as what I assume is the bleeding effect starts. (The room with the three voices.)


Lots of grey blocks and the whole environment looks completely different.

“Remember. In Eden.” Juno, you speak in odd ways.

Birds again.

The letter from Mom is odd – the mistakes seem to start only when she mentions alcohol.

“I... No. Not me. I refuse!” - “Go forth, with eyes opened to all but the truth.” Clay is their sacrifice? Which truth?


“Ability activated.” And drugs. I hate Vidic.

Obvious way is blocked again.

The unreachable gate.

Over a year of experiments but only now he gets into the mainframe?

Over a year and after the bleeding effect gets bad, but still thinks of leaving. (“Remember, stick to the mission.”...)

The truth is shown differently to pretty much everything else, almost as a sort of cutscene. Then there's the stage... I'm not saying Lucy isn't a Templar, but it stands out somewhat.

Then there's “I'm trapped”, the picture shows a door and that door actually appears. And what is Clay's way of escaping? The suicide?


“The End of the Line” - “The Loop”

Why are we outside?

“Your eyes are now open.” So it was The Truth about Lucy? And Clay answers. “I will.”

“They must all suffer as we suffered.” This is odd, but we all noticed that.

Lucy's letter is so full of contradictions. “You of all people should understand.” But it's Abstergo and her who run the experiments on him, not William. The secret message here is the only one in plain view, from what I've noticed, since collecting the letter practically forces you to look at it and the letter itself is just where you need to go.

The glyphs. How can AI!Clay remember them perfectly, though? Even the spelling mistake of Quetzalcoatl's name? In his database entry he says he doesn't remember the actual suicide since he was made a day prior.

“Ability activated.” Why here?

The noises at River Styx D: Why Ubisoft, why.

In the room after the third fragment there's laughing again.

How does Clay know of that call? Was that just before infiltrating Abstergo?

The break the loop gate without the bridge.

The birds again during the falling cutscene.

There's no dialogue when breaking the loop accept repeating “Your eyes are now open. Help Desmond Miles.” - “I will.”

How can AI!Clay send his Dad a message? And I think the first sentence is important, even if just seems like a character thing. (“Don't worry about me. I've found my place and my purpose. There is another I must help along the same path.”) He sounds surprisingly calm -- even calmer than in ACR.

EvolutionIXMR
03-01-2012, 05:05 AM
This DLC is utter garbage.
For someone who has followed AC since about a year before the first game came out, I must say that it has definitely fallen from grace, Brotherhood being it's peak.
Revelations brought lots of stupid little unnecessary things(ex. den defense, bombs, etc) to the series. Not to mention Ubisoft seems to be devoting 80% of their effort into multiplayer which is sickening at times. Also, the ever-expanding AC-universe might seem like a great idea to some, but IMO it's only watering down the series/story. Think Star Wars.
Since finishing Revelations, I don't even think i've posted here since. Just left a bad taste in my mouth you could say. This DLC though, is just complete nonsense. $9.99...I wouldn't of paid 1/10 of that for it. The whole time I was hoping for it to just end already. I mean, are people REALLY asking for this portal-like gameplay from AC enough to base an entire DLC on it? C'mon.
I honestly can't believe I just paid for that. Next DLC aught to be free as an apology-like gesture from Ubisoft to it's fans.

Nomad86x
03-01-2012, 05:12 AM
Excellent Analysis Apirka!

And something you brought up that I was stuck on during the DLC, but moved past and forgot entirely:


“Search for key cartographer ancestral DNA ongoing.” …?

I want to say this is Desmond - but then if it is - what is the signification of "Key Cartographer" tite

Does it refer to Altair's knowledge - The Eagle Vision Map on the Codex - aka - the projection we saw at the end of ACI, showing the Vault/PoE locations, or does it refer to Ezio in some manner? (Doubtful, as Clay was already a descendent)

But all in all a lot of great observations Apirka! Plenty for us to muddle over - I would not be surprised that there is lot more plot significance in this DLC than we notice at a glance from this first few run-throughs

As for my thoughts on the "Breaking the Loop" - My interpretation is that it's Clay/his consciousness contacting his father through the Animus, as we have "broken the loop" - meaning he has broken from the cycle (And I keep coming back to this notion of the cycle and the loop - namely WHAT IS THE CYCLE? - is it life? The struggle? The conflict spanning generations? That's why I'm personally fascinated with the chunk of Memory 7 after you pass through the blood paintings and move on to the River Styx and all the way through to the point that the cycle restarts - I think there's something huge there) But back to the message - The question for me is was his consciousness playing in a loop until that day when Desmond entered the coma? Was it mere coincidence or was it triggered by something substantial that happened?

At least I think this is what happened in a way - The glyphs from ACII - were pre-recorded - namely S16/Clay was almost making research notes and had compiled the Truth as a file to be read - not interfaced with. (But that raises a further question - did he witness "The Truth" from ACII analogous to being contacted by Juno??) Or was it before? After? But then the glyphs in Brotherhood - that i think was partially an active attempt by S16 to get out - because if anyone remembers "Compiling subsystems - tendons, lungs heart, Voice" ad when it says voice - it changes from that AI woman's voice to S16's voice - and during the later glyphs - the intro to them has the AI woman's voice saying things like "Who Am I?" or "Is anyone there? Hello?" And so during this time - he's in the loop but also trying to break away - and some points succeeds (all this happening in the Animus) and the S16 we meet in Revelations has finished this rebirth and death cycle and "broke the loop" and all that information he may or may not still have - but he still knows his mission - and that he does NOT want to be in the animus anymore.

But I'm starting to ramble - Another question that's eating away at me now - Juno's contact with Subject 16 - and how much did he really witness from Primordial Adam's perspective?

Also, I'm sure there's a huge amount of information that he found out that we still don't know - because the Memory Sequence where he is in Abstergo as a Test Subject - in that we just travel through his process of interfacing with the memories and hacking the mainframe at Abstergo - we don't discover what he discovered - for all we know - there was a **** ton of information that he discovered that we still don't know - so one more question now -

DId the information he discovered while the Bleeding Effect was taking place and he discovered more and more from memories and his private Animus sessions - did that die away when he Broke the Loop - therefore producing a much more calm and relaxed Clay whom we meet in ACR? Is it still locked away in fragments in the Animus's databanks? Because I'm sure still information that has yet to be revelaed to us that he discovered - but that's just me LOL - I'll stop now :rolleyes:

Nomad86x
03-01-2012, 05:25 AM
I definitely understand your position - but here's the way I see it - Brotherhood and Revelations didn't really add much to the gameplay - A) Because they didn't need to - why fix it if it ain't broke? B) The goal of both games was to advance the plot principally

Even with this game series' excellent gameplay that consistently keeps me entertained (although not as challenging as it's first iteration :mad: the true merit in AC is it's plot - and that's why I loved ACB and ACR ( in other words AC2.33 and AC2.66) This DLC and the Desmond Journey segments weren't about gameplay, they were about plot development - almost as simplified and yet accessible cinematics - ones that could contain more than first meets the eye.

I definitely can relate to your feeling that as the plot is expanded and the scope of the AC Universe grows - and we learn much more than we did when we started - it definitely takes away from that original mystique - that weird spine-chilling feeling that you got from the Glyphs or ACII Puzzles - that you didn't know what was going on, and only got glimpses into the unknown - but at the same time - that's inevitable - the mystique will diminish but it will never completely go away.

I also take solace in the fact that the original fellas who really thought up Assassin's Creed haven't divorced themselves from the project and the series - they still do oversee what's happening - so it's not like the storyline is being tarnished in my mind - it just feels that way as we learn more because the original attraction for me was in that weird sense of foreshadowing into the unknown - where you were given all these clues but had no clue what the **** they meant. That feeling is fun, exciting, and intriguing - but it can't be sustained at the same level indefinitely - at least not if you want the plot to advance. If you want to keep that same feeling - then stop playing altogether - so as to avoid learn more about the AC Universe and diminish mystical wonder of "WTF will happen next?"

That's just my two cents though - feel free to tell me to **** off :o

jmk1999
03-01-2012, 11:17 AM
i just finished... i'm not all the fond of it being strictly the memory puzzles, but it was quite intriguing to finally get some closure on why lucy is killed... still, i'm kinda bummed out that they went the route of making her a templar. i know we all speculated this since brotherhood, but i really wanted to feel like perhaps i was wrong. sadly, they opted for what everyone was expecting. i really liked lucy so i think it was sort of a cheap thing to do to her character... especially since she basically says in her second letter to clay that she was going to kill him... something we all thought was an accident brought on by vidic's forcing her to keep him in the animus. sure, that played a part in it obviously, but her sincerity seemed quite lacking, regardless of her potential regret for doing it. oh well, i guess we'll see where it goes from here.

on another note, it sorta makes me wonder if william knew lucy was a templar after she was killed... it might bring an interesting point of view to his question about if her and desmond were close.

also, it would have been nice to unlock something after completing it... like perhaps a clay skin for single player.

stefman6987
03-01-2012, 12:57 PM
There's stlll so many unanswered questions, alright i'll make list!

what really got me was at the start it said the date was "october the 12th 2012" the day lucy was stabbed and the day desmond fell into a coma, 16 died in august. So this questions whether or not where viewing it from desmond's or clay's pov, but maybe 16 planned it? maybe that's what juno was telling him.. on this day this will happen and blah blah, so 16 planned when to initiate the "lost archive files" but yet again that doesn't add up because of the fact that when where on animus island, it's a different animus island, it's the same as the desmond's journey trailer, so maybe it is desmond's pov (i'm just speculating feel free to correct me).

Onto what juno said to clay.. i thought this dlc was going to show us why 16 wrote those glyphs on the walls. what he knows is going to happen, for example in ACB truth he sais "it is far later then you know it, everything you hold dear, is already gone... the sun... your SON"... "find eve,,. in eden... her DNA" ok this hole bit just makes me angry to know we didn't find out wtf he was talking bout in the lost archive, there has to be some meaning towards all of it, juno told and showed clay "remember in eden/eve (can't remember what she said)" theres a big chunk of info where missing, where clay was shown the truth of what's going to happen to the world, bout lucy, about eden eve and such.

one of the codes i the second memory i believe when decrypted spells "clay created adam, adam created Clay" this is a biblical reference where it states that god created adam from clay and adam then created Clay kazmareck, implying clay is a descendant of adam. Now some point while in the animus 16 would have relived adam's memories, how else would he know the truth from ac2.. what i also want to point out is how was juno talking to clay directly? if anyone asks me... this is very very confusing...

oh and the code in mem 6, "lucy, she is always behind you" thoughts on this people?

OH ONE LAST THING READ THIS... THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT ASWELL
remember in acb, erudito??? they sent an email to desmond sayig "make sure you stay in the loop" is desmond going crazy? and you had to break the loop to regain conciousness with 16, and as for breaking the loop, very anti climatic indeed..

burtie80
03-01-2012, 01:18 PM
I thought that the loop was showing us how subject 16 was traped in the animus, constantly living through this tourture of trying to escape.Its the only way he he could live inside the animus and it would have slowly made him crazy...well thats what I got out of it! lolz

stefman6987
03-01-2012, 01:29 PM
Yeah that's what it is, and when broke the loop he ragained his sanity.. hence why he was so calm when desmond met him. i just thought it was strange how erudito said "make sure you stay in the loop"

Apirka
03-01-2012, 03:08 PM
Excellent Analysis Apirka!

Thank you :D


I want to say this is Desmond - but then if it is - what is the signification of "Key Cartographer" tite

Does it refer to Altair's knowledge - The Eagle Vision Map on the Codex - aka - the projection we saw at the end of ACI, showing the Vault/PoE locations, or does it refer to Ezio in some manner? (Doubtful, as Clay was already a descendent)

Clay being a descendant doesn't necessarily mean it can't be Ezio -- the memo is written in January 2008 and Clay finds it when he breaks into Abstergo. It is only after the Assassin's gain access to that information that William decides to send Clay in as a test subject.


But all in all a lot of great observations Apirka! Plenty for us to muddle over - I would not be surprised that there is lot more plot significance in this DLC than we notice at a glance from this first few run-throughs

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if we're still missing quite a lot. The way this is set up mgives them plenty of chance to give clues through symbolism, one of the reasons why I love the "first person platformer crap". (And that as someone who adores cutscenes. I do play Metal Gear after all ;))



As for my thoughts on the "Breaking the Loop" - My interpretation is that it's Clay/his consciousness contacting his father through the Animus, as we have "broken the loop" - meaning he has broken from the cycle (And I keep coming back to this notion of the cycle and the loop - namely WHAT IS THE CYCLE? - is it life? The struggle? The conflict spanning generations? That's why I'm personally fascinated with the chunk of Memory 7 after you pass through the blood paintings and move on to the River Styx and all the way through to the point that the cycle restarts - I think there's something huge there) But back to the message - The question for me is was his consciousness playing in a loop until that day when Desmond entered the coma? Was it mere coincidence or was it triggered by something substantial that happened?

What I realized is -- we break the loop during The Bleeding Effect. I think there's significance to that, as well as the missing dialogue and repeating those two lines from the start of The End of the Line. Not only that -- the gate there is not the only one we can't access (at least at first). There's also the last gate, the one we can never each before the loop starts again. What is behind that one? And what is the significance of the "heaven" section? Throughout the other memories, we are frequently treated to images of it -- the staircase, the room with the window, the hole in the ceiling and the last gate. It may be a way to signify the loop -- but they start during memory two, not one, and and go all the way up to memory 6. It's certainly curious.


At least I think this is what happened in a way - The glyphs from ACII - were pre-recorded - namely S16/Clay was almost making research notes and had compiled the Truth as a file to be read - not interfaced with. (But that raises a further question - did he witness "The Truth" from ACII analogous to being contacted by Juno??) Or was it before? After? But then the glyphs in Brotherhood - that i think was partially an active attempt by S16 to get out - because if anyone remembers "Compiling subsystems - tendons, lungs heart, Voice" ad when it says voice - it changes from that AI woman's voice to S16's voice - and during the later glyphs - the intro to them has the AI woman's voice saying things like "Who Am I?" or "Is anyone there? Hello?" And so during this time - he's in the loop but also trying to break away - and some points succeeds (all this happening in the Animus) and the S16 we meet in Revelations has finished this rebirth and death cycle and "broke the loop" and all that information he may or may not still have - but he still knows his mission - and that he does NOT want to be in the animus anymore.

I had though that this was due to the AI being broken into parts that were only loaded after a puzzle was solved, slowly putting it back together. So when Animus voice is confused and anguished, it's because AI Clay is incomplete because Desmond hasn't put him back together yet. I think he says something about Desmond doing that in his database entry.

It may very well have to do with the loop, but I don't know. I think there might be more to the loop than that; I'm not sure though and you may very well be right.


But I'm starting to ramble - Another question that's eating away at me now - Juno's contact with Subject 16 - and how much did he really witness from Primordial Adam's perspective?

That's interesting to know. Also, Juno says "Eyes opened to all but the truth." The ACII video is called The Truth, memory 6 (finding out about Lucy? there's him hacking into the main frame, but the Lucy scene is certainly shown as being incredibly important with its representation) is also called The Truth. In memory seven Juno tells Clay that his eyes are now open -- so he seems to know the truth that they were previously closed to. Juno is the one that has Lucy stabbed. Is there more to it than her being a Templar? How does Juno know all these details?


Also, I'm sure there's a huge amount of information that he found out that we still don't know - because the Memory Sequence where he is in Abstergo as a Test Subject - in that we just travel through his process of interfacing with the memories and hacking the mainframe at Abstergo - we don't discover what he discovered - for all we know - there was a **** ton of information that he discovered that we still don't know - so one more question now -

I wonder how much significance he himself gave to it and I wonder why he was still sane then. He hacks into the mainframe, he finds out what Vidic wants -- we are reminded of the satellite -- and he says they can get out now. Then he finds out about Lucy, knows he's trapped and must get out. Memory 7 starts and "Help Desmond Miles." - "I will." which is in stark contrast to the end of 5: “I... No. Not me. I refuse!” (Incidentally, his refusal is in mem 5, then when breaking the loop, his willingness to do as Juno says is once again shown, in this same memory.)


Did the information he discovered while the Bleeding Effect was taking place and he discovered more and more from memories and his private Animus sessions - did that die away when he Broke the Loop - therefore producing a much more calm and relaxed Clay whom we meet in ACR? Is it still locked away in fragments in the Animus's databanks? Because I'm sure still information that has yet to be revealed to us that he discovered - but that's just me LOL - I'll stop now :rolleyes:

I think it should be noted that the loop is broken at the end of memory 5, after you have to go through the whole thing again. It's The Truth and The End of the Line he doesn't repeat. I also am not sure how much of AIClay's calm would come from that. He's certainly still crazed (I refer you to the scene were he's on the ground and wonders if he could get a new body, and we occasionally see glimpses of it during his other conversations with Desmond).

What exactly is behind the decipher fragments though? What are they and why can they break the loop?


There's stlll so many unanswered questions, alright i'll make list!

what really got me was at the start it said the date was "october the 12th 2012" the day lucy was stabbed and the day desmond fell into a coma, 16 died in august. So this questions whether or not where viewing it from desmond's or clay's pov, but maybe 16 planned it? maybe that's what juno was telling him.. on this day this will happen and blah blah, so 16 planned when to initiate the "lost archive files" but yet again that doesn't add up because of the fact that when where on animus island, it's a different animus island, it's the same as the desmond's journey trailer, so maybe it is desmond's pov (i'm just speculating feel free to correct me).

I don't think it is Desmond's pov, especially since this would mean he would do this before Revelations. Besides, it makes no sense to not tie this into the game if it is from his pov -- I can't think of any answer to this though. I'm pretty sure there is something important about this date.


Onto what juno said to clay.. i thought this dlc was going to show us why 16 wrote those glyphs on the walls. what he knows is going to happen, for example in ACB truth he sais "it is far later then you know it, everything you hold dear, is already gone... the sun... your SON"... "find eve,,. in eden... her DNA" ok this hole bit just makes me angry to know we didn't find out wtf he was talking bout in the lost archive, there has to be some meaning towards all of it, juno told and showed clay "remember in eden/eve (can't remember what she said)" theres a big chunk of info where missing, where clay was shown the truth of what's going to happen to the world, bout lucy, about eden eve and such.

She says "Remember. In Eden." I've no idea what exactly is going on here either, though


OH ONE LAST THING READ THIS... THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT ASWELL
remember in acb, erudito??? they sent an email to desmond sayig "make sure you stay in the loop" is desmond going crazy? and you had to break the loop to regain conciousness with 16, and as for breaking the loop, very anti climatic indeed..

This is odd. And why I certainly thought that breaking the loop was anticlimactic as well at first, I think there might be more to that e-mail then we can see right now. ("There is another I must help along the same path." when you break the loop, while here Desmond is told to stay in the loop?)

LightRey
03-01-2012, 03:13 PM
"Stay in the loop" is more likely referring to him staying aware of everything that's going on. I doubt it has anything to do with the loop in the DLC.

zerocooll21
03-01-2012, 04:11 PM
She says "Remember. In Eden." I've no idea what exactly is going on here either, though


"Remember. In Eden" is most likely just a reference to Clay needing to remember the events of the The Truth video in Eden.

Apirka
03-01-2012, 04:26 PM
Looking at it again (Thank you, EscoBlades, by the way), the scene goes:

Juno: Clay Kaczmarek. I , who was once called Juno, have come to show you the way. Remember. In Eden.

He walks for a about 10 seconds, there are birds that fly away when he comes near.

Adam: Eve, what is this device?

Eve: Touch, Adam, and you will know.

It may very well be the case that she's referring to Adam and Eve.

stefman6987
03-01-2012, 04:49 PM
i think the hole juno thing is vital and will be very imortant in ac3, 16 hasn't really shown desmond anything yet that will help him save the world. that moment that is referred to by clay in ACB truth video, juno twice now must be really important... i just want to know what it is already :\ i wander how there going to implement lucy's betrayal into ac3.. it is a big thing in the ac story line, and i hope 16 has a bigger role in ac3.. seems kinda strange to just kill him off even tho he hasn't done anything. As for erudito's email, i still find it strange.

it would be strange if it was from 16 pov, how would he have talked directly to juno? the archive was activated on the 10/10/2012... there has to be some purpose behind it... ac3 is going to have an even bigger revelation to be honest, well hopefully

SleezeRocker
03-01-2012, 05:06 PM
Jumping in the grave gets the “hurt” effect (or however you would call it), but without the blocks we can't do anything about it. Colour is gone again.

“The End is only the Beginning” - Clay's funeral and in his grave we get child Clay talking.

To die is to Live; In Clay's (subject 16) death, he was"reborned/alive/renaissance (lol)" to help Desmond eventually leading to The Island in ACR?
That's sort of how I see it, can't explain it any better though ;)

Im still missing some dam glyph pieces but all in all, I thought it was ok. Not the best thing, but not too bad either for me. theb iggest revelation for me was that Lucy was more on the Templar side, that made me say "Ah dam...why?".

Also the River of Styx and then jumping into Elysium(Heaven/Paradise) was kind of crazy too (somewhat made me think of Silent Hill for some strange reason) and then doing that big-ace Leap of faith (Hmm...'Leap' of 'Faith'???) eagle dive into memory 1 lol

In greek mythos was river of styx really going TO 'Hell"/Tartarus or was it a form of purgatory? Can't remember

Apirka
03-01-2012, 05:12 PM
How can it be from Desmond's, though? If it's the date he fell into the coma, he would be trying to get his synch nexus. Besides, he never mentions it during the story and clearly just went straight from killing Lucy and falling into the coma to walking up on Animus Island. There's also the fact that he narrated his own memories, while the person going through Clay's is suspiciously silent the entire time.

On the other hand, AI!Clay would have been busy with guiding Desmond/distracting the Animus... I keep wondering about the glyphs. I don't think they use the text based ones in ACII, though I might misremember things, which begs the question that even if he knew before creating the AI what he would write on the walls -- likely, the database entry says original!Clay thought about his suicide a lot before creating the AI -- why would the AI know original!Clay misspelled Quetzalcoatl? Unless there's some significance to it... or these aren't AI!Clay's memories.


To die is to Live; In Clay's (subject 16) death, he was"reborned/alive/renaissance (lol)" to help Desmond eventually leading to The Island in ACR?
That's sort of how I see it, can't explain it any better though ;)

Im still missing some dam glyph pieces but all in all, I thought it was ok. Not the best thing, but not too bad either for me. theb iggest revelation for me was that Lucy was more on the Templar side, that made me say "Ah dam...why?".

Also the River of Styx and then jumping into Elysium(Heaven/Paradise) was kind of crazy too (somewhat made me think of Silent Hill for some strange reason) and then doing that big-ace Leap of faith (Hmm...'Leap' of 'Faith'???) eagle dive into memory 1 lol

In greek mythos was river of styx really going TO 'Hell"/Tartarus or was it a form of purgatory? Can't remember

It's all very interesting imagery; I think I'm going to stop being lazy and read up on Styx. But I'm not sure if what we saw in ACR was all Clay was tld to do. Certainly, he saved Desmond from the Animus, thereby helping hm (and presumably being deleted and killed, explaining his freak out towards the end of The Bleeding Effect.)

And what glyphs...? Do you mean those codes/hidden symbols or the decipher fragments? There's a video on youtube for the latter; it's how I did it yesterday after I jumped into lasers like 50 times hearing a fragment that wasn't there.

SleezeRocker
03-01-2012, 05:23 PM
And what glyphs...? Do you mean those codes/hidden symbols or the decipher fragments? There's a video on youtube for the latter; it's how I did it yesterday after I jumped into lasers like 50 times hearing a fragment that wasn't there.


Ah decipher fragments yes! Im missing like 3 and you say you died in lasers 50x w/o a fragment? I htink I had that same problem yesterday....lol
Nah seriously there are time i can "hear" the glinting sound on the ciphers but then turns out it was just those golden data stream 'windows' :/

stefman6987
03-01-2012, 05:25 PM
How can it be from Desmond's, though? If it's the date he fell into the coma, he would be trying to get his synch nexus. Besides, he never mentions it during the story and clearly just went straight from killing Lucy and falling into the coma to walking up on Animus Island. There's also the fact that he narrated his own memories, while the person going through Clay's is suspiciously silent the entire time.

On the other hand, AI!Clay would have been busy with guiding Desmond/distracting the Animus... I keep wondering about the glyphs. I don't think they use the text based ones in ACII, though I might misremember things, which begs the question that even if he knew before creating the AI what he would write on the walls -- likely, the database entry says original!Clay thought about his suicide a lot before creating the AI -- why would the AI know original!Clay misspelled Quetzalcoatl? Unless there's some significance to it... or these aren't AI!Clay's memories..

what's this quote to quetzalcoati i haven't heard it :\ well either way it's really strange because this huge revelation of lucy being a traitor needs to be implemented into the ac3 story, i don't think they will just forget that lucy even existed, shaun and rebecca at this moment think she's still an assassin ( not sure about william ) well remember the quote "i have seen, what has been, what will be" he knew about 2012 and must have already knew about the glyphs. so what point that AI clay remember up to? maybe where just viewing the clay's memories as a complete non existent person, maybe it's just showing us what hppened and isn't based on who's pov it's from.

Apirka
03-01-2012, 05:41 PM
Ah decipher fragments yes! Im missing like 3 and you say you died in lasers 50x w/o a fragment? I htink I had that same problem yesterday....lol
Nah seriously there are time i can "hear" the glinting sound on the ciphers but then turns out it was just those golden data stream 'windows' :/

You know that part in memory four, where you're drifting upwards and have to change sides to dodge the lasers? Must have been the window, yes. I spent ages there, trying to find the fragment only to finally find that video and seeing that there was none :|


what's this quote to quetzalcoati i haven't heard it :\ well either way it's really strange because this huge revelation of lucy being a traitor needs to be implemented into the ac3 story, i don't think they will just forget that lucy even existed, shaun and rebecca at this moment think she's still an assassin ( not sure about william ) well remember the quote "i have seen, what has been, what will be" he knew about 2012 and must have already knew about the glyphs. so what point that AI clay remember up to? maybe where just viewing the clay's memories as a complete non existent person, maybe it's just showing us what hppened and isn't based on who's pov it's from.

"Within Emperor Jiajing's sin and Quetzcoaltz's hunger lies the Answers."

And I am sure they'll find a way to incooperate Lucy into the main story. I also think it is strange that they haven't tied The Lost Archives into the story and hope it really isn't just for our benefit but that there are story related reasons for doing it this way.

SleezeRocker
03-01-2012, 05:54 PM
@Apirka
Yeah lol
I'll have to check out youtube one these days to get the other ciphers (m kind of too lazy to look it up right now since im playing a NEW game on skyrim....since my last Skyrim file got corrupted T_T)

stefman6987
03-01-2012, 05:54 PM
"Within Emperor Jiajing's sin and Quetzcoaltz's hunger lies the Answers."

And I am sure they'll find a way to incooperate Lucy into the main story. I also think it is strange that they haven't tied The Lost Archives into the story and hope it really isn't just for our benefit but that there are story related reasons for doing it this way.[/QUOTE]

where was this quote mentioned? was it on one of the ac2 glyphs?

yeah i hope so, they probably will, how will desmond know of lucy's death while being in a coma if he didn't see 16's memories (even though it's not from his pov), either way how would he even know? maybe william knows everything, maybe 16 told him when he had access to the animus, i don't know but i want to know!! :D

stefman6987
03-01-2012, 05:57 PM
just on a note of my post about the important events of adam and eve and juno and that... in ac1 vidic sais in an email that 16 experienced a very important event which could have led him to go insane, hence something happened in eden, hopefully we find out in ac3 :)

Apirka
03-01-2012, 06:12 PM
where was this quote mentioned? was it on one of the ac2 glyphs?

yeah i hope so, they probably will, how will desmond know of lucy's death while being in a coma if he didn't see 16's memories (even though it's not from his pov), either way how would he even know? maybe william knows everything, maybe 16 told him when he had access to the animus, i don't know but i want to know!! :D

It was in AC 1 over Desmond's bed.

I'm not sure yet, but William didn't sound like he knew. I'm sort of hoping that Clay's role isn't finished quite yet.


just on a note of my post about the important events of adam and eve and juno and that... in ac1 vidic sais in an email that 16 experienced a very important event which could have led him to go insane, hence something happened in eden, hopefully we find out in ac3 :)

It was Session 12 when The Truth was recorded, which seems relatively early -- and Clay was sane enough to get into the mainframe and think of getting out of Abstergo after over a year of experiments according to Lost Archive's The Truth (memory 6), which was after the bleeding effect got bad (memory 5 along with Juno's first appearance in the DLC and the short bit of dialogue between Adam and Eve).

Moultonborough
03-01-2012, 06:57 PM
Anyone find the last Fragment in memory 6 and the last of memory 7? It sounds like there might be one in the "theatre" room once it starts to close on you but I cant find it. Thanks.

WhiteSheWolf
03-01-2012, 07:09 PM
So, I also found a set of numbers in one of the later memories:

"53686520 6F T5 6C6420 6861 766520
6C65 6420 442061 7761 7920
66 726F 6D20 T46865 207061 T468"

Anyone else see this/have any idea what code it could be?

Apirka
03-01-2012, 07:10 PM
There's none in the theatre room but I refer you to this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=315A10qNGBQ

Xandar11
03-01-2012, 10:09 PM
I haven't seen the numbers that you found White, could you tell me where they are? Also, the points about the significance of it ending at the Bleeding Effect... a few thoughts occur. One, the bleeding effect is the learning of knowledge and skills from someone in the past... maybe this is a reference to Clay breaking out and passing on the knowledge to Desmond? Two, since the bleeding effect comes before The Truth, perhaps Juno means to stay blind to "The Truth", since she says to "Keep your eyes open to All But the Truth." The repeated Dialogue about his eyes being open might be him accepting his fate, and to not pass on that Lucy was a templar. I'm reminded of the opening to Revelations when Clay mentions to Desmond that Lucy is dead, Desmond remembers, and Clay says "Sorry, I thought you knew..." Maybe he means more than just that Lucy is dead.

Anyone think of anything on the Theta symbol or the braille message in chapter 5? It translated to "The Truth is constructed from lies." Also the odd text of the mother's email, or the bit of french and italian during the repeating rooms?

Apirka
03-01-2012, 10:31 PM
I haven't seen the numbers that you found White, could you tell me where they are? Also, the points about the significance of it ending at the Bleeding Effect... a few thoughts occur. One, the bleeding effect is the learning of knowledge and skills from someone in the past... maybe this is a reference to Clay breaking out and passing on the knowledge to Desmond? Two, since the bleeding effect comes before The Truth, perhaps Juno means to stay blind to "The Truth", since she says to "Keep your eyes open to All But the Truth." The repeated Dialogue about his eyes being open might be him accepting his fate, and to not pass on that Lucy was a templar. I'm reminded of the opening to Revelations when Clay mentions to Desmond that Lucy is dead, Desmond remembers, and Clay says "Sorry, I thought you knew..." Maybe he means more than just that Lucy is dead.

Anyone think of anything on the Theta symbol or the braille message in chapter 5? It translated to "The Truth is constructed from lies." Also the odd text of the mother's email, or the bit of french and italian during the repeating rooms?

Actually, she says, “Go forth, with eyes opened to all but the truth.” then later says, “Your eyes are now open. Help Desmond Miles.” The fact that "Your eyes are now open." is repeated before breaking the loop makes me think that is important to help Desmond -- after all, Clay can't leave before learning the truth, since you need to go through The Truth and The End of the Line before you can break the loop. He also only agrees after his eyes are open -- during The Bleeding Effect he freaks and shouts, “I... No. Not me. I refuse!” and then, after The Truth, answers "I will.", again before breaking the loop and then writes, "I've found my place and my purpose. There is another I must help along the same path.”.

I do wonder though if more than just what has happened to him up to now prompted his initial refusal. Did she tell him he would have to kill himself or was there more to it than that?

The French is from La Fontaine and something like "Nothing weighs heavier on us than a secret." and the Italian apparently "May god watch me among friends so I can watch myself among enemies or something like that. Someone else translated it somewhere... I don't know if there's anything to it, though both sound like there might be a hidden meaning, while maybe Lincoln's sentence is supposed to throw us of that notion? Admittedly, I at first assumed it was simply the bleeding effect starting since IIRC Clay has an ancestor who fought in the battle of Gettysburg.

Eziolala
03-01-2012, 10:56 PM
When I first played through, I thought the ending was Clay falling to the Tiber Riber, as the newspaper that's on a chair at the funeral said "Body found in Tiber river, suicide suspected." Though I don't know why he'd be seeing it or falling from the sky. It seems that it's just part of the loop. I did like the whole loop thing.

Apirka
03-01-2012, 11:03 PM
When I first played through, I thought the ending was Clay falling to the Tiber Riber, as the newspaper that's on a chair at the funeral said "Body found in Tiber river, suicide suspected." Though I don't know why he'd be seeing it or falling from the sky. It seems that it's just part of the loop. I did like the whole loop thing.

...I never saw that D: I can't go and replay right now (and had wanted to take a break anyway), does it say any more than that? (...Stupid Clay and his pretty face distracted me <.< That has to be it, hmph.)

CanterburyTales
03-01-2012, 11:12 PM
Here's something I don't get: at the end of AC 1, Vidic and three of his superiors agree to "dispose" of Desmond as they no longer believe he is of any use to them, but Lucy then tells them that there's probably more to that they could learn from Desmond; in Lost Archive, however, Vidic's plan all along was for Lucy to take Desmond away and help Lucy find Ezio's Apple of Eden for Abstergo.

SixKeys
03-01-2012, 11:21 PM
Here's something I don't get: at the end of AC 1, Vidic and three of his superiors agree to "dispose" of Desmond as they no longer believe he is of any use to them, but Lucy then tells them that there's probably more to that they could learn from Desmond; in Lost Archive, however, Vidic's plan all along was for Lucy to take Desmond away and help Lucy find Ezio's Apple of Eden for Abstergo.

She had to act convincingly, remember? Vidic was probably fully aware of what she was planning to do after they got to Desmond's final memory and simply played along when she persuaded his superiors to let Desmond live.

Apirka
03-01-2012, 11:37 PM
Or the whole thing was staged from the beginning on, just to make Desmond trust Lucy.

WhiteSheWolf
03-01-2012, 11:43 PM
I haven't seen the numbers that you found White, could you tell me where they are?

I don't remember the exact memory, but the numbers were written on a wall behind one of the letters, and the letter was in a corner. I might go back through and try to find them again later.

samward
03-02-2012, 11:09 PM
So let me see if I get this right. This is what I think happened in the DLC and please tell me if I am on the right track or if I have this all wrong. :D



Clay has dad issues and they get to him to the point he has to go to a counselor, who is under the influence of Abstergo (possibly the medical company mentioned in the Drs notes?)




Clay is approached by William and made into an Assassin and his issues from before go away.




Clay is sent on a mission to be captured by Abstergo and to become a test subject, his team is William working from the outside and Lucy (who has been groomed for the job and has been living outside of the Assassins for some years) who is suppose to get him out when the job is done.




Clays mission is to hack the computer system and animus to figure out what Abstergo’s plans to use the animus for and what they are looking for.




While Clay is trying to figure this out he forms some sort of relationship with Lucy because of the note where she says, “thanks for the kind words”




Clay is put into the Animus where either by design or by chance he overhears rumors of the “Apple” from some random Italian guy in the past.




This conversation Clay overhears about the apple lets Vidic know they are on the right path and makes Clay aware that Abstergo’s plans involve something much bigger then maybe he first realized.




Going back into the animus Clay overhears another conversation about Ezio and how he is supposedly the Assassin that holds the apple.




Vidic takes this information and does some research and finds out that Desmond has the perfect genetic tree to help them locate the apple through Ezio.




At the same time at some point while Clay has been in the animus he enters the Eden memory from AC2. I suspect that it is during this memory that Juno speaks with Clay. Probably the same way that Minerva speaks to Desmond through Ezio. At any rate I am guessing the memory is much bigger then what we see in the AC2 truth video and because of what Clay sees and hears from Juno (probably also much more then we hear in the memories) he understands “what will be and what has been” Some one on here suggested that Juno may have told him he had to die in order to save Desmond and that is why he did not want to do it at first. (I think this is a good possibility because there really is no other reason he should not want to help him, after all he has never he even met Desmond). At any rate Juno tells Clay he must help Desmond and after she opens his eyes to the truth, (something I think we did not get to see) he agrees to help Desmond.




It is my guess that after this is when he starts to leave the voice notes of his findings about Abstergo (the ones Desmond finds in AC2) in the animus and probably around the same time stumbles over the video footage of Vidic talking to Lucy about the importance of the Desmond and how she is to take him out of the lab and gain his trust so she can bring the Apple back.


*** I pause here to say that in AC1 when she talks to Desmond about her work and how Abstergo found her and how Vidic saved her life, that is occurs to me that one or two things could be happening there. Either the story was a lie to make Desmond think she was sharing personal things about her self in order that he would trust her. OR maybe she went into Abstergo on the Assassins side and then Vidic figured out she was a mole and he was the one who held her at gun point and told her she could either die or come work for the Templars and she picked to work for the Templars… just a thought….



I suppose Lucy figured out that Clay had seen her conversation with Vidic, probably from reviewing the items he accessed during the night.




She then writes to Clay and tell him she cant let him leave Abstergo now and that she is sorry.




It is my guess that it is at this point that he knows he is never getting out and that he really is going to die at Abstergo.




Knowing he still needs to help Desmond, he does the only thing he knows left to do. He uses his engineering skills to hack into the animus and scan himself in. Hoping that the AI form of himself will be able to tell Desmond what he knows.




He then goes around the lab and paints all the symbols in blood to leave clues and hints to Desmond to the truth he is suppose to leave behind to help Desmond; and the dies.




I guess at that point Abstergo hides his death by dumping him into the Tiber river…. Not sure about that one…


**** Still not sure how Clay would know how Abstergo would hide his death…



This leaving just the AI version of himself behind to interact with Desmond. But it would appear that the animus has an issue constructing the AI version of Clay though and while constructing his AI persona it gets stuck on just a few select attributes/ memories of who he is and loops through these preventing his AI getting to Desmond.




Now this is just a guess, but I have been wondering over and over gain why he would have to kill himself in the animus. The only thought I have is maybe when he “kills” himself that allows him to break free from the loop for just a few mins before it resets and that is when he is able to come to Desmond in Brotherhood. This would make sense why he seems so fixated on getting to the “suicide” point (with flashes in the other memories.) Perhaps he does not know when he and Desmond will be in a place where he can meet him and he is eager to get to the part of the loop where can break through as he is afraid he will miss his chance?




Then Desmond goes into a coma and the Clay AI finally puts together the pieces to break out of the loop it got stuck in, by sending the letter that Clay wrote, and my guess is that was the last thing that had to happen to finalize the metallization of the Clay AI.


***An explanation might be for the reason the date on the file (when we start the game) is the day that Desmond goes into the coma is because that is the date of the last time it repays the loop. So in other words it has been playing in a loop since he died in August, but the date updates on the file every day and we come into it the same day that Desmond goes into a coma and the day that the loop runs for the last time and Clays AI finally materializes.



That’s when Clay appears to Desmond and then eventually saves Desmond by being deleted instead of him.

Apirka
03-03-2012, 12:22 AM
So let me see if I get this right. This is what I think happened in the DLC and please tell me if I am on the right track or if I have this all wrong. :D
I think you've raised some very interesting points c: And yay, more Lost Archive discussion! (I'm useless when it comes to the codes, so...)




Clay has dad issues and they get to him to the point he has to go to a counselor, who is under the influence of Abstergo (possibly the medical company mentioned in the Drs notes?)

It's a possibility that Abstergo is the company the psychiatrist talks about Desmond does say they even make pain killers (Ibuprofen, I think was it?), but I didn't see anything that outright said it? IIRC the flashback to it was during the Abstergo memory, but after he apparently escaped.



Clay is approached by William and made into an Assassin and his issues from before go away.

I don't think the issues go away. The psychiatrist is a jerk and only out or the money, but I do think he's on to something with his thoughts regarding Clay's progress. It seemed to me that William took on a sort of father/mentor role for Clay, giving him the support his father never gave him. After all, we never hear any other Assassin (and they did add some non main character lines in) and The Order has him giving a lot of advice.



Clay is sent on a mission to be captured by Abstergo and to become a test subject, his team is William working from the outside and Lucy (who has been groomed for the job and has been living outside of the Assassins for some years) who is suppose to get him out when the job is done.


Apparently he infiltrated Abstergo first (memory 3... "Abstergo") and stole a not Vidic sent to Rickkin concerning the Animus project (curiously dated to not even a year after the psychiatrist notes the change in Clay's attitude). It tips of William that there's something about that project and that s when he sends Clay in.




Clays mission is to hack the computer system and animus to figure out what Abstergo’s plans to use the animus for and what they are looking for.

I find it strange that if that was all he needed over a year to do so...



While Clay is trying to figure this out he forms some sort of relationship with Lucy because of the note where she says, “thanks for the kind words”

I'm not sure if it's just because of the letter -- though that seemed to have some significance to him -- but they were "working together" (or so he thought) for over a year while he was being tested on.



Vidic takes this information and does some research and finds out that Desmond has the perfect genetic tree to help them locate the apple through Ezio.

I think they took a while to find that out -- after all, the apple conversation is during memory 4, then comes memory 5 and only during memory 6 does Vidic mention Desmond.



At the same time at some point while Clay has been in the animus he enters the Eden memory from AC2. I suspect that it is during this memory that Juno speaks with Clay. Probably the same way that Minerva speaks to Desmond through Ezio. At any rate I am guessing the memory is much bigger then what we see in the AC2 truth video and because of what Clay sees and hears from Juno (probably also much more then we hear in the memories) he understands “what will be and what has been” Some one on here suggested that Juno may have told him he had to die in order to save Desmond and that is why he did not want to do it at first. (I think this is a good possibility because there really is no other reason he should not want to help him, after all he has never he even met Desmond). At any rate Juno tells Clay he must help Desmond and after she opens his eyes to the truth, (something I think we did not get to see) he agrees to help Desmond.

I'm curious as to how much the Templar knows, and I'm not sure Juno was during the same memory as The Truth. The Truth is session 12, I think he may have experienced more Adam and Eve memories during private sessions.

I also wonder what Juno told him and yes, I do think she may have foretold his death (might be me that had suggested that), but I think if there's more to it that could be very interesting. And she actually says "Go forth, with your eyes opened to all but the truth." so she didn't actually open them at that point -- and then comes memory 6, The Truth, and right at the start of memory 7 she says that his eyes are now open.

What I've been thinking about is that of the glyphs represent the point were he killed himself, why is most of memory 7 after that? There's still a big part afterwards with River Styx and after that he apparently creates AI!Clay and then there's getting to t "heaven" portion. Or is everything after the glyph room from AI!Clay? And why does he remember the exact glyphs, right down to spelling mistakes -- if he doesn't actually remember the suicide because he was created a day prior?



It is my guess that after this is when he starts to leave the voice notes of his findings about Abstergo (the ones Desmond finds in AC2) in the animus and probably around the same time stumbles over the video footage of Vidic talking to Lucy about the importance of the Desmond and how she is to take him out of the lab and gain his trust so she can bring the Apple back.


I t sounded to me like he saw the real scene as it happened and him listening in was caught on tape which Lucy destroyed so Vidic wouldn't find out, as she mentions in her second letter.


*** I pause here to say that in AC1 when she talks to Desmond about her work and how Abstergo found her and how Vidic saved her life, that is occurs to me that one or two things could be happening there. Either the story was a lie to make Desmond think she was sharing personal things about her self in order that he would trust her. OR maybe she went into Abstergo on the Assassins side and then Vidic figured out she was a mole and he was the one who held her at gun point and told her she could either die or come work for the Templars and she picked to work for the Templars… just a thought….
I wonder how that story fits in, though I don't think Vidic threatened her into joining -- if her letter expresses her true feelings he really bought into Templar ideology and her having been raised outside the order to become a mole as well as William's emotional distance put her off the order even further, since she felt alone and as if the order -- William specifically -- didn't care about her life.



It is my guess that it is at this point that he knows he is never getting out and that he really is going to die at Abstergo.

He does say he's trapped and must find a way out after we witness the Lucy - Vidic scene, and as soon as memory 7 starts he has accepted what Juno's told him and agreed to help Desmond. It may very well be that finding out about Lucy was what made him decide there was no other way and he might as well die, if that is what Juno told him would happen. I also wonder if his previous psychological problems had anything to do with it.



I guess at that point Abstergo hides his death by dumping him into the Tiber river…. Not sure about that one…


**** Still not sure how Clay would know how Abstergo would hide his death…

This would seem to be the case, but yes, it is certainly odd that AI! Clay would know of the Tiber River part. Certainly makes me wonder...


This leaving just the AI version of himself behind to interact with Desmond. But it would appear that the animus has an issue constructing the AI version of Clay though and while constructing his AI persona it gets stuck on just a few select attributes/ memories of who he is and loops through these preventing his AI getting to Desmond.


He does seem to have problems during brotherhood, but I'm not sure if that was because Desmond had just put him back together.




Now this is just a guess, but I have been wondering over and over gain why he would have to kill himself in the animus. The only thought I have is maybe when he “kills” himself that allows him to break free from the loop for just a few mins before it resets and that is when he is able to come to Desmond in Brotherhood. This would make sense why he seems so fixated on getting to the “suicide” point (with flashes in the other memories.) Perhaps he does not know when he and Desmond will be in a place where he can meet him and he is eager to get to the part of the loop where can break through as he is afraid he will miss his chance?


It never seemed like suicide to me. It is always going towards that one goal, the last gate -- it even shows in one of the flashes, without the way to it crumbling -- and I get the impression that he tries to reach it, but never can. As far as we know he can only ever break the loop by collecting the fragments and using the gate in memory 5.

orionsrise
03-03-2012, 02:41 AM
In memory 2 while backtracking for the missing data points I found this binary message in an elevated section Block 1 Block 2 block 3 block 401000011 0110110001100001 0111100100100000 0110001101110010 0110010101100001 0111010001100101 0110010000100000 0100000101100100 0110000101101101 0010110000100000 0100000101100100 0110000101101101 0010000001100011 0111001001100101 0110110001100001 0110010101100100 0010000001000011 0110000101110100 01111001I thought it was straight binary code but there is another encryption because after decoding I come up ith these lettersCr cdlaeAcd, exAddre Cy tdamamatla the spaces and comma's are part of the encryptionif I can find the key to the second encryption then I'll post it later

Apirka
03-03-2012, 03:00 AM
According to The Lost archive code thread (here: http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/660893-Can-someone-help-me-crack-this-code-in-The-Lost-Archive it is "Clay created Adam, Adam created Clay"

orionsrise
03-03-2012, 03:16 AM
thanx sorry for the repeat post

stefman6987
03-03-2012, 08:08 AM
@samward, i agree with pretty much everything you said! well done man, makes lots of sense that the "october 10th 2012" date, clay can only repeat the loop until he finds desmond, maybe that truth video in ACB was a leak, where 16 was aloud a minute or so to talk to desmond? hence him saying "theres no time". And as you said, when he finally talks to desmond in the black room, he is able to reach that final gate. My problem is, is that 16 didn't really show desmond anything, i want to know what happened in eden! why is that bit so important!

The problem with the lost archive is that, up until this point we were lead to believe that he just went crazy...but from the lost archive it seems like killing himself was the objective considering he had no way of getting out, but i suppose it works both ways, he saw all the symbols and could't stop thinking of them...and then theres the bleeding effect..

EDIT: guys watch this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCnpebzbGI4&feature=relmfu
it's glyph puzzle 20 from ac2, 16 sais "i can't do it. can i do it? will it set me free from this endless ring of time.... goes on about cutting himself.. then.. It's time to get out. Ah the moon, i can see the stars. My mind is gone. Lucy, i can't wait any longer. I'm ready to go. She see's me raise the knife".

i dunno bout you guys, but i get alot from this puzzle, 16 couldn't leave, lucy just watched him kill himself, he was going to be stuck in the loop, until he can stop the loop... he breaks the loop in the black room when he meets desmond and sends the letter to his dad (must have to be the point) then he can enter that last gate.. well that's how i interepreted it.

samward
03-03-2012, 09:00 AM
I wonder how that story fits in, though I don't think Vidic threatened her into joining -- if her letter expresses her true feelings he really bought into Templar ideology and her having been raised outside the order to become a mole as well as William's emotional distance put her off the order even further, since she felt alone and as if the order -- William specifically -- didn't care about her life.


The more I thought about this point last night, the more I have to agree with you. But it also made me think, because Lucy was lonely and all, maybe Vidic does come save her like she tells Desmond he does… maybe that is what caused her to switch sides and to attach to Vidic as a father figure as Clay attached to William as his father figure.

Speaking of fathers anyone have a guess what Clays dad did, that his wife could not forgive and Clay would say” it was not his fault” ?

zerocooll21
03-03-2012, 01:18 PM
Speaking of fathers anyone have a guess what Clays dad did, that his wife could not forgive and Clay would say” it was not his fault” ?

I assumed he was referring to how his father had acted towards him and his mother with the demanding of money.

Apirka
03-03-2012, 05:07 PM
thanx sorry for the repeat post

No problem C:


@samward, i agree with pretty much everything you said! well done man, makes lots of sense that the "october 10th 2012" date, clay can only repeat the loop until he finds desmond, maybe that truth video in ACB was a leak, where 16 was aloud a minute or so to talk to desmond? hence him saying "theres no time". And as you said, when he finally talks to desmond in the black room, he is able to reach that final gate. My problem is, is that 16 didn't really show desmond anything, i want to know what happened in eden! why is that bit so important!

The problem with the lost archive is that, up until this point we were lead to believe that he just went crazy...but from the lost archive it seems like killing himself was the objective considering he had no way of getting out, but i suppose it works both ways, he saw all the symbols and could't stop thinking of them...and then theres the bleeding effect..

EDIT: guys watch this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCnpebzbGI4&feature=relmfu
it's glyph puzzle 20 from ac2, 16 sais "i can't do it. can i do it? will it set me free from this endless ring of time.... goes on about cutting himself.. then.. It's time to get out. Ah the moon, i can see the stars. My mind is gone. Lucy, i can't wait any longer. I'm ready to go. She see's me raise the knife".

i dunno bout you guys, but i get alot from this puzzle, 16 couldn't leave, lucy just watched him kill himself, he was going to be stuck in the loop, until he can stop the loop... he breaks the loop in the black room when he meets desmond and sends the letter to his dad (must have to be the point) then he can enter that last gate.. well that's how i interepreted it.

ACB always gave me the impression that when Desmond reached him he hadn't been fully loaded -- as supported by the fact that the Animus was still compiling part of him the moment Desmond arrived there -- which is why he couldn't stick around. He seemed less "I am so crazy" incoherent as he did in some of the Truth puzzles, it was more as if he tried to say as much as he could in a short time because he knew he he needed more time to properly put himself together. What I find curious is that if The Lost Archive has anything to do with his ACB appearance, why does he not even hint on anything like that in his database entry, despite talking about how Desmond put him back together by solving the cluster puzzles?

And yes, he seemed strangely... not crazy during The Lost Archive. Hell, even after over a year of experiments and after The Bleeding Effect, where he refuses to do what Juno tells him to, he still thinks of completing the mission and leaving, which is what The Truth is about -- right up until he finds out that Lucy is working with Vidic in the end. Next we know he's agreed to helped Desmond as his eyes are now open.

What's curious is that he says "Lucy, I can't wait any longer." At this point he should know about her betrayal, after all.


The more I thought about this point last night, the more I have to agree with you. But it also made me think, because Lucy was lonely and all, maybe Vidic does come save her like she tells Desmond he does… maybe that is what caused her to switch sides and to attach to Vidic as a father figure as Clay attached to William as his father figure.

Speaking of fathers anyone have a guess what Clays dad did, that his wife could not forgive and Clay would say” it was not his fault” ?

I think working with her may have allowed Vidic enough insight into her mind that he guessed that she could be convinced to work for Abstergo -- he might have even staged the entire attack on her in order to win her over.

As for Clay's Dad, the psychiatrist proposes the theory of parental abuse, though I don't think that it was physical or even sexual as much as emotional. Clay's Mum says that she can't deal with having to take are of a husband who doesn't even want her help, every time we hear Harold says something he's a bit of a jerk and during the flashback where Clay tells him he got into a engineering programme and his Dad puts him down with "Kaczmarek's build things, they don't sit at desks.", the hallway we walk through reminds me a bit of a prison, and then there's of course the conversation about Clay's Mum leaving. (The next thing William says after Harold tells Clay to leave his history paper and what money the foreman's son makes is also "They will put obstacles into your way." But as mentioned in my notes, I am not necessarily convinced that the two have to do with each other.) The only time Harold is portrayed in a positive light is at the the end when he hear his phone call and he desperately asks Clay to call back and let him know he's okay.

Thinking about it, I'm curious what the placement of the flashbacks could tell us about Clay's psyche...

crash3
03-03-2012, 05:17 PM
I felt sorry for Lucy despite her secret allegience it was very satisfying to finally get the full story of subject 16 but it was a shame that it had to be through playing those dreadful first person missions, those were a serious blunder on ubisofts part

Steww-
03-03-2012, 05:37 PM
What kind of gameplay would you prefer Ubisoft to give us this info in?

OP, I agree with you referencing the importance of the Lorenz attractor. Every glyph seems to have a key message.

jamgamerforever
03-03-2012, 07:04 PM
Well, well, well. This DLC was amazing and with the Loop and everything, has my mind running around in circles.

So, the lack of insanity? I have a few theories, and I have read through the entire thread so will try not to repeat anything. Maybe Clay partitioned parts of his mind almost, to create the AI? The line in memory 7: 'DNA and memory scanned. Upload complete. Quarantining construct Clay Kaczmarek.'

Construct = Something formed or constructed from parts.

The problem is that we're not able to discern where Clay actually dies. Assuming it's where the symbols appear, then the Loop is the AI going through the memories over and over again to properly recreate Clay Kaczmarek. This explains his Brotherhood state, which you've all picked up already. So that quote is the Animus scanning him to see if his memory matches the original Clay's memories.

I think it's interesting that from Memory 1, time continues to move forwards. Then that message from Clay's dad is recieved, and it's from January 2011. That has to be significant somehow.

Pretty sure that door at the end of memory 7 is back to his body, but of course his body is 'worm food'.

So the backdoor is the way to the current Animus Island. Hmm... This DLC really does raise alot of questions.

Apirka
03-03-2012, 07:26 PM
Well, well, well. This DLC was amazing and with the Loop and everything, has my mind running around in circles.

So, the lack of insanity? I have a few theories, and I have read through the entire thread so will try not to repeat anything. Maybe Clay partitioned parts of his mind almost, to create the AI? The line in memory 7: 'DNA and memory scanned. Upload complete. Quarantining construct Clay Kaczmarek.'

Construct = Something formed or constructed from parts.

That's an interesting idea. I took it as "construct" being the Animus' way of saying that it's a copy of Clay Kaczmarek -- not the real thing, but a construct of the original, but not that there might actually be something other than the day after its creation being missing from the AI.


The problem is that we're not able to discern where Clay actually dies. Assuming it's where the symbols appear, then the Loop is the AI going through the memories over and over again to properly recreate Clay Kaczmarek. This explains his Brotherhood state, which you've all picked up already. So that quote is the Animus scanning him to see if his memory matches the original Clay's memories.

My main problem with that theory is that we are the ones to break the loop -- therefore, the one who fgoes through these memories is the one who does it. And yet, AI!lay tells Desmond that he put him together by solving the puzzles and never hints at anything else. (Except maybe when he speaks about the synch nexus -- actually, the first time I played ACR I think I explained AI!CLay's relative sanity to myself as him having the synch nexus now.) And I'm still bothered by AI!Clay remembering a perfect recreation of the glyphs. Clay wrote them with his own blood, he must have been dying of blood loss towards the end so they really shouldn't be perfectly the same as the ones he uses of the Truth puzzles which the AI should know, and there's still the spelling mistake. (Unless that isn't a mistake at all...)


I think it's interesting that from Memory 1, time continues to move forwards. Then that message from Clay's dad is recieved, and it's from January 2011. That has to be significant somehow.
Wait. Oh dear. I never noticed, but how does Clay know of that phone call? I only thought that it's rather sad, now that Harold finally behaves like a Dad Clay is already stuck in Abstergo with no way to escape, but -- neither the AI nor the original should remember that call. Hmm.


Pretty sure that door at the end of memory 7 is back to his body, but of course his body is 'worm food'.

So the backdoor is the way to the current Animus Island. Hmm... This DLC really does raise alot of questions.


That's brilliant! I never even thought of that! And it perfectly explains the it being unreachable -- anyone who knows more about Styx than the bit Wikipedia tells you, could it explain the imagery at the end of memory 7 as well? I always thought that was an interesting bit of symbolism, but I don't know enough about those things.

jamgamerforever
03-03-2012, 07:57 PM
That's an interesting idea. I took it as "construct" being the Animus' way of saying that it's a copy of Clay Kaczmarek -- not the real thing, but a construct of the original, but not that there might actually be something other than the day after its creation being missing from the AI.

Yeah, this came from seeing Clay in Brotherhood. He obviously wasn't whole. I think the Loop is the Animus's version of a loading process. Up until now, we didn't know AI existed did we? I imagine they're very complicated, and every time it went through the Loop, it became more "whole".


My main problem with that theory is that we are the ones to break the loop -- therefore, the one who fgoes through these memories is the one who does it. And yet, AI!lay tells Desmond that he put him together by solving the puzzles and never hints at anything else. (Except maybe when he speaks about the synch nexus -- actually, the first time I played ACR I think I explained AI!CLay's relative sanity to myself as him having the synch nexus now.) And I'm still bothered by AI!Clay remembering a perfect recreation of the glyphs. Clay wrote them with his own blood, he must have been dying of blood loss towards the end so they really shouldn't be perfectly the same as the ones he uses of the Truth puzzles which the AI should know, and there's still the spelling mistake. (Unless that isn't a mistake at all...)

I was under the impression we were playing as AI!Clay so under that assumption my theory would make sense. I like to think that this took place in-universe, despite the intro about Abstergo having 17 test subjects, and it couldn't be Desmond, as he's surprised to see 16 at the beginning of ACR. The synch nexus is where your ancestor has nothing left to show you, so is Clay, almost AI!Clay's ancestor? So his synch nexus is when Clay has nothing left to show him? It confuses me, because Clay seemingly goes through a LOT of ancestors in the Truth puzzles, but none of that is brought up in this DLC. Does an AI even have DNA?


Wait. Oh dear. I never noticed, but how does Clay know of that phone call? I only thought that it's rather sad, now that Harold finally behaves like a Dad Clay is already stuck in Abstergo with no way to escape, but -- neither the AI nor the original should remember that call. Hmm.

Actually, that didn't occur to me either. Wow. The Truth? Is it really a sixth sense, the one the First Civilization uses? Does it truly allow Clay to see everything?


That's brilliant! I never even thought of that! And it perfectly explains the it being unreachable -- anyone who knows more about Styx than the bit Wikipedia tells you, could it explain the imagery at the end of memory 7 as well? I always thought that was an interesting bit of symbolism, but I don't know enough about those things.

The River Styx goes around Hades 9 times. I'd have to check again, but that perhaps has significance? Are there 9 particle boxes above the river? Does the Loop happen 9 times?

I did find this though: "Once souls arrived on the other side of the River Styx, they joined other souls, who were waiting around until they were reborn into a new body."

This perfectly describes Clay's situation, except that there was no body to return to. It also describes him waiting with Desmond, other souls, but that's not what happens when he crosses it, it happens before, in Memory 5. Ugh, that isn't simple.

Also: "While waiting for their turn to be reborn, a soul depended on his or her living family to take care of them by offering food and wine at special times of the year."

Maybe that's why the story puts alot of emphasis on his dad? And the message at the end too?

Anxiously awaiting your reply!

Apirka
03-03-2012, 08:43 PM
Yeah, this came from seeing Clay in Brotherhood. He obviously wasn't whole. I think the Loop is the Animus's version of a loading process. Up until now, we didn't know AI existed did we? I imagine they're very complicated, and every time it went through the Loop, it became more "whole".

I'm still surprised Clay is apparently some sort of super genius or something. He can make an AI of himself, he can hack into Abstergo's main frame. and memory 3 seems to be him just breaking into Abstergo and stealing stuff from Rickkin's computer. and then escaping when apparently the alarm goes off or something. And yet the dates suggest that he's at most about a year of training before he does that...

I can't help but wonder if there isn't more about the loop than we currently think , considering the way it is done -- the start of memory one is a perfectly blending the end and the beginning (and what is up with that weird version of Animus Island? Especially since it is apparently part of the memories...), the flashes to memory 7's heaven part, and especially the breaking of the loop happening at the end of memory 5 -- The Bleeding Effect.


I was under the impression we were playing as AI!Clay so under that assumption my theory would make sense. I like to think that this took place in-universe, despite the intro about Abstergo having 17 test subjects, and it couldn't be Desmond, as he's surprised to see 16 at the beginning of ACR. The synch nexus is where your ancestor has nothing left to show you, so is Clay, almost AI!Clay's ancestor? So his synch nexus is when Clay has nothing left to show him? It confuses me, because Clay seemingly goes through a LOT of ancestors in the Truth puzzles, but none of that is brought up in this DLC. Does an AI even have DNA?


I'm pretty sure it's not Desmond, but I keep thinking that there's details in there that don't quite add up if it's AI!Clay. It may very well be him, though -- but I think there's something about Ubisoft's way of presenting this DLC. Everything else is always integrated into the story line, but this is in it's own menu, without any explanation as who we are playing and the only thing telling us the time frame is the Animus loading screen. Then there's also the fact that the Animus doesn't normally show memories like that -- Desmond had to collect the data fragments to unlock access to this part of the Animus. There's also no loading screen between memories, just a title screen, while Desmond got one for every memory he accessed, and one would think the Animus would load something and not just show us random titles.



Actually, that didn't occur to me either. Wow. The Truth? Is it really a sixth sense, the one the First Civilization uses? Does it truly allow Clay to see everything?

"I can see." Has it ever been said how much First Civilization genes Clay has? We know Desmond's genes are special since William tells us as much during ACR and we know that Desmond and Clay are related, but apparently only distantly. Perhaps towards the end he did unlock the sixth sense? Maybe that is why his eyes have been opened... the reason why Juno contacts him and tells him to help Desmond -- maybe even to sacrifice himself?


The River Styx goes around Hades 9 times. I'd have to check again, but that perhaps has significance? Are there 9 particle boxes above the river? Does the Loop happen 9 times?

I did find this though: "Once souls arrived on the other side of the River Styx, they joined other souls, who were waiting around until they were reborn into a new body."

This perfectly describes Clay's situation, except that there was no body to return to. It also describes him waiting with Desmond, other souls, but that's not what happens when he crosses it, it happens before, in Memory 5. Ugh, that isn't simple.

Also: "While waiting for their turn to be reborn, a soul depended on his or her living family to take care of them by offering food and wine at special times of the year."

Maybe that's why the story puts alot of emphasis on his dad? And the message at the end too?


Oh, that's very interesting... And Styx is related to the Greek Gods, so maybe it also has a relation to TWCB?

Also, breaking the loop has Clay send a message to his Dad -- how? And yes, the placement of the gate is important, somehow. I also remember now -- the Animus voice talking about the Clay construct happens after he crosses the River, doesn't it? He has his conversation with Juno, finds Lucy's letter, the secret message, eventually gets into the hallway with the glyphs and only after jumping out of that to River Styx, which he has to cross to get to that serene room where the Animus talks. So really, when does original!Clay stop and when does AI!Cay start?

You know, I wonder if his Dad is going to play a role after this somehow. I've considered that maybe there's something about his Mum and the typo's in her e-mail are about more than just being drunk, but there's so much emphasize put onto Harold and his short comings as a father, up until that one phone call, and a lot of emphasize on Clay's conflicting feelings regarding him.


Anxiously awaiting your reply!

:D Sorry, I'm so terribly slow at typing.

jamgamerforever
03-03-2012, 09:46 PM
I'm still surprised Clay is apparently some sort of super genius or something. He can make an AI of himself, he can hack into Abstergo's main frame. and memory 3 seems to be him just breaking into Abstergo and stealing stuff from Rickkin's computer. and then escaping when apparently the alarm goes off or something. And yet the dates suggest that he's at most about a year of training before he does that...

I can't help but wonder if there isn't more about the loop than we currently think , considering the way it is done -- the start of memory one is a perfectly blending the end and the beginning (and what is up with that weird version of Animus Island? Especially since it is apparently part of the memories...), the flashes to memory 7's heaven part, and especially the breaking of the loop happening at the end of memory 5 -- The Bleeding Effect.

Yeah, there is definitely more to Clay than we first thought. He is able to interface with the Animus so easily, seemingly able to dodge the Bleeding Effect for quite some time.

The Loop. I'm getting the same feeling, that there's something really important hidden just out of plain sight, something key to Assassin's Creed lore. I think I'm going to have to play the whole thing Memory 1-7, then Memory 1-5 again. I had all the decipher cubes first time through so just jumped to Memory 5 where I knew that door was. Maybe playing the 12 memories like that will make something pop in my head.


I'm pretty sure it's not Desmond, but I keep thinking that there's details in there that don't quite add up if it's AI!Clay. It may very well be him, though -- but I think there's something about Ubisoft's way of presenting this DLC. Everything else is always integrated into the story line, but this is in it's own menu, without any explanation as who we are playing and the only thing telling us the time frame is the Animus loading screen. Then there's also the fact that the Animus doesn't normally show memories like that -- Desmond had to collect the data fragments to unlock access to this part of the Animus. There's also no loading screen between memories, just a title screen, while Desmond got one for every memory he accessed, and one would think the Animus would load something and not just show us random titles.

Yeah, we'd have probably heard Desmond comment on things if it was him. That's the thing though, nobody comments. Part of that makes me think it's the AI, another part of me wonders. It has to be Clay though, right? Because of the Loop? If it was someone watching, why would they go through the Loop?

So far, everything we have experienced has been Desmond, apart from the multiplayer. Interestingly, the cutscenes in that were 1st person. I know it's partly because it was designed to be YOU, the player, but, maybe it's something more. In reality, we see in 1st person, yet when Desmond first experiences the 'Desmond's Journey' sequences, he feels like he has no body, but clearly takes pain from high jumps. Is 'the Truth' even more than what we already believe. Does the high concentration of First Civilization genes have him view the world differently to everyone else? Or am I just putting story into what is present just for gameplay? Curious to here what you make of this - am I overthinking it? Ubisoft does seem to take presentation quite seriously.


"I can see." Has it ever been said how much First Civilization genes Clay has? We know Desmond's genes are special since William tells us as much during ACR and we know that Desmond and Clay are related, but apparently only distantly. Perhaps towards the end he did unlock the sixth sense? Maybe that is why his eyes have been opened... the reason why Juno contacts him and tells him to help Desmond -- maybe even to sacrifice himself?

No it hasn't, but he's related to Ezio, so presumably he has more than average, but not as much as Desmond. Would Clay have Eagle Vision? He did experience Ezio after all. We do not understand how the First Civilization seemingly knows all about Ezio, Desmond, Clay and 2012. I always viewed it as they could see DNA forwards, which would explain why Juno visits both Clay and Desmond. And in the Coliseum at Brotherhood's end, Lucy couldn't hear Juno speak. You see, I wonder if Clay really dies at the end of ACR. Desmond's arm does glow blue in the ending cinematic, could that be Clay? So many questions!


Oh, that's very interesting... And Styx is related to the Greek Gods, so maybe it also has a relation to TWCB?

Also, breaking the loop has Clay send a message to his Dad -- how? And yes, the placement of the gate is important, somehow. I also remember now -- the Animus voice talking about the Clay construct happens after he crosses the River, doesn't it? He has his conversation with Juno, finds Lucy's letter, the secret message, eventually gets into the hallway with the glyphs and only after jumping out of that to River Styx, which he has to cross to get to that serene room where the Animus talks. So really, when does original!Clay stop and when does AI!Cay start?

You know, I wonder if his Dad is going to play a role after this somehow. I've considered that maybe there's something about his Mum and the typo's in her e-mail are about more than just being drunk, but there's so much emphasize put onto Harold and his short comings as a father, up until that one phone call, and a lot of emphasize on Clay's conflicting feelings regarding him.

The difficulty with Styx is whether it was original!Clay or AI!Clay who experiences it. Is Styx a construct of the Animus, or a physical manifestation of the afterlife?

Yeah, you have the events in exactly the right order, except there is that strange noise just before he enters the serene room, that is the only noise between the River and the construct audio from the Animus. And I have no idea what it could represent, so UbiSoft has me there.

It's a hell of a coincidence that both during Clay's Journey and Desmond's Journey, they experience what they perceive as neglect by their respective fathers. Their direct ancestor. And they both seem to accept their fathers by the end of their journey. Come to think of it, why does Desmond never experience the Loop? Does it only happen when your body is gone? In the Styx legends of the Greeks, a "guide" has to help the soul to return to their body. Is this why Clay can't return? Clay becomes this "guide" for Desmond in a way.

"Adam created Clay. Clay created Adam." Does this refer to original!Clay creating the AI, which in turn recreates all of his ancestors?


:D Sorry, I'm so terribly slow at typing.

It's fine, ha ha, we have almost 8 months to discuss it! It might take us that long considering the amount of stuff that Assassin's Creed has built up over the years.

Gil_217
03-03-2012, 10:45 PM
*** I pause here to say that in AC1 when she talks to Desmond about her work and how Abstergo found her and how Vidic saved her life, that is occurs to me that one or two things could be happening there. Either the story was a lie to make Desmond think she was sharing personal things about her self in order that he would trust her. OR maybe she went into Abstergo on the Assassins side and then Vidic figured out she was a mole and he was the one who held her at gun point and told her she could either die or come work for the Templars and she picked to work for the Templars… just a thought….

Like you, I thought about this after I finished (or was it during?) the awesome DLC (I'm not being ironic), and, of course, your scenario is plausible, but I have a different one.

So, I think that the Templars found, somehow, that Lucy was a mole for the Assassin's, their greatest enemies, and therefore, Alan Rikkin (possibly, since he's the CEO) sent three employees to her apartment during the night ( no "if you know what I mean" here, this is serious business!) to kill her, like she told Desmond in Assassin's Creed, but then, Vidic, aware of all of this, saved her, not because he cared about her ( he could still care about her though - no "if you know what I mean" here too), but because he saw the potential in her if they could use her properly. Then, he convinced Rikkin that Lucy would be much more useful to them alive, and in the process explained his genius idea of turning her to their cause, possibly manipulating her in order to convince her to change sides, and therefore making her a mole working for the Templars now, against the Assassin's.

This was indeed a genius idea engineered by Warren Vidic, who could possibly succeed 100% if it wasn't for "outside interference" (Juno making Desmond kill Lucy).

Apirka
03-03-2012, 11:03 PM
Yeah, there is definitely more to Clay than we first thought. He is able to interface with the Animus so easily, seemingly able to dodge the Bleeding Effect for quite some time.

The Loop. I'm getting the same feeling, that there's something really important hidden just out of plain sight, something key to Assassin's Creed lore. I think I'm going to have to play the whole thing Memory 1-7, then Memory 1-5 again. I had all the decipher cubes first time through so just jumped to Memory 5 where I knew that door was. Maybe playing the 12 memories like that will make something pop in my head.

True. We know he's exhausted during most of memory 4 after entering the Animus (him asking Vidic if he can have a rest), but the only "I think he went crazy" moment was at the end with the mind screwyness and the voices just before entering the gate to memory 5. Where he seemed strangely normal, just as with memory 6. There are some curious instances of random laughter, though...

Ngh. I want to play to, but I'm currently talking a break because last time I did I almost burst into tears. And after checking EscoBlades playthrough just now as well... being so oversensitive is so annoying :|


Yeah, we'd have probably heard Desmond comment on things if it was him. That's the thing though, nobody comments. Part of that makes me think it's the AI, another part of me wonders. It has to be Clay though, right? Because of the Loop? If it was someone watching, why would they go through the Loop?

I've actually entertained the notion that this isn't AI but original!Clay, but I know there's little chance of that happening. (It does fit into the heaven imagery in memory 7 though... He can't enter the last gate -- heaven -- because he's not dead. Your idea to explain that makes a lot more sense and is less pure symbolism, though.) And the lack of narration is also an odd thing. I thought maybe the laughter is from whomever views this -- most likely Clay -- but it doesn't sound like him. There's an instance or two were I think of Cam Clarke when it happens but I doubt they'd bring him back and there's some laughter that *really* doesn't sound like him, anyway.


So far, everything we have experienced has been Desmond, apart from the multiplayer. Interestingly, the cutscenes in that were 1st person. I know it's partly because it was designed to be YOU, the player, but, maybe it's something more. In reality, we see in 1st person, yet when Desmond first experiences the 'Desmond's Journey' sequences, he feels like he has no body, but clearly takes pain from high jumps. Is 'the Truth' even more than what we already believe. Does the high concentration of First Civilization genes have him view the world differently to everyone else? Or am I just putting story into what is present just for gameplay? Curious to here what you make of this - am I overthinking it? Ubisoft does seem to take presentation quite seriously.

I've never seen any of the multiplayer scenes :| I'll go and check them out. But I think it's important to note that in normal first person view you can still see your body, while no matter how much you turn the camera here you'll only ever see your surroundings. It's of course odd that a formless mass of data has trouble passing through certain openings (there's a few times where you can go through really narrow or low passages but as soon as laser's are involved, prepare to be stuck :|) It's also odd that there are different "dying" animations -- falling too far, being hit by a laser (which I find quite creepy... and it happens to me all the time :/) and simply touching one of the blue/red box/floor thingies.

And yeah, presentation has been important up to now, which is why I'm so bothered by Lost Archive's. I can't believe it doesn't have some sort of meaning, since anything else kind of screw with the way they've been telling the story up to now.


No it hasn't, but he's related to Ezio, so presumably he has more than average, but not as much as Desmond. Would Clay have Eagle Vision? He did experience Ezio after all. We do not understand how the First Civilization seemingly knows all about Ezio, Desmond, Clay and 2012. I always viewed it as they could see DNA forwards, which would explain why Juno visits both Clay and Desmond. And in the Coliseum at Brotherhood's end, Lucy couldn't hear Juno speak. You see, I wonder if Clay really dies at the end of ACR. Desmond's arm does glow blue in the ending cinematic, could that be Clay? So many questions!

He said something about Eagle Vision in Ezio's database entry, I think, I can't remember if he mentioned having it, though. And Jupiter says something about the Nexus of time that had always been Minerva's strength regarding their ability to communicate with Desmond. I just watched Brotherhood's ending again, and Juno seems different from the others there... and apparently the only one who also contacts Clay. I also wonder if there's something hidden in her ramblings that may help with this, but I am not at all familiar with Brotherhood speculation since I only started to lurk here shortly before Revelations came out. (She does say something similar to them in memory 7: "They must all suffer as we suffered.")

And I'd be... disappointed if Scheduled for Deletion and The Lost Archive was the last we've seen of Clay. He's been there since the very beginning, there are still so many unanswered questions regarding him -- for very one Lost Archive answered, it created a new one, after all. I don't know how he'll return, but I do hope he does. (Sappy as I am, if tey'd make a ridiculous happy ending for him I'd probably be happy...)


The difficulty with Styx is whether it was original!Clay or AI!Clay who experiences it. Is Styx a construct of the Animus, or a physical manifestation of the afterlife?

Yeah, you have the events in exactly the right order, except there is that strange noise just before he enters the serene room, that is the only noise between the River and the construct audio from the Animus. And I have no idea what it could represent, so UbiSoft has me there.

Also rewatched River Styx and the noise. It reminds me a bit of an engine, but that makes no sense, so I have no idea. It's also rather foreboding, but we get to the leave the creepy "the souls of the dead are screaming don't make turn off the noise game" part.


It's a hell of a coincidence that both during Clay's Journey and Desmond's Journey, they experience what they perceive as neglect by their respective fathers. Their direct ancestor. And they both seem to accept their fathers by the end of their journey. Come to think of it, why does Desmond never experience the Loop? Does it only happen when your body is gone? In the Styx legends of the Greeks, a "guide" has to help the soul to return to their body. Is this why Clay can't return? Clay becomes this "guide" for Desmond in a way.

Desmond's Journey is different in also of ways with the way it's done -- collect data fragments, different gates... Lost Archive has the memories in one long sequence with no returns to Animus Island -- indeed, we only visit it when already in there. There's also a lot more representations of actual places -- the funeral, the animus lab, Abstergo, the psychiatrist's room, the rooms and stairs during the heaven part, as well as differently done symbolism -- compare Desmond's river when he leaves the farm to River Styx, which even has a boat at the start. I don't know if they simply refined it or if that has a meaning as well. (That's the problem with the symbolism here -- how much is actual, intended symbolism, how much is simply for gameplay or even aesthetic purposes?)

AI!Clay being Desmond's guide is very true though, considering his role in Revelations, though Desmond never comes by Styx in the first place. (Of course, the closest to dying he gets is his coma.)


"Adam created Clay. Clay created Adam." Does this refer to original!Clay creating the AI, which in turn recreates all of his ancestors?

The common interpretation seems to be that it refers to the biblical Adam being created out of clay and Adam being Clay's ancestor, therefore "creating" him. It does make sense, though the quote also has events happen the other way around, and I wouldn't be surprised if there's more to it.


It's fine, ha ha, we have almost 8 months to discuss it! It might take us that long considering the amount of stuff that Assassin's Creed has built up over the years.

C: I got into it for the story in the first place actually. Started by watching playthroughs of AC1 and 2.

Gil_217
03-03-2012, 11:35 PM
The more I think of Lucy's motives the more I believe she was totally manipulated by Vidic, and of course the fact that he saved her helped, like I explained in my previous post.

She was a sleeper agent working for the Assassin's, which normally means that she should have minimal contact with her true affiliations (Assassin's), or none at best, this was even mentioned in The Lost Archive, when William says that all her ties to the Assassin's have been erased so all this talk about her being lonely and abandoned by the Assassin's doesn't make any sense, because that's just how it's supposed to go when you're a sleeper.

Apirka
03-03-2012, 11:45 PM
That's actually the problem -- sure, that's how it's supposed to go, but it seems that she couldn't deal with the situation her status as a sleeper brought her in and thought William didn't care about her as a person. (According to the wiki the Encyclopaedia mentions that he was emotionally distant, which might have also been a problem, though he did seem to be able to take on a father/mentor role for Clay.) And then Vidic came along and used her already existing issues to manipulate her into joining him.

Gil_217
03-03-2012, 11:48 PM
That's actually the problem -- sure, that's how it's supposed to go, but it seems that she couldn't deal with the situation her status as a sleeper brought her in and thought William didn't care about her as a person. (According to the wiki the Encyclopedia mentions that he was emotionally distant, which might have also been a problem, though he did seem to be able to take on a father/mentor role for Clay.) And then Vidic came along and used her already existing issues to manipulate her into joining him.

Yeah, poor Lucy.

jamgamerforever
03-04-2012, 01:13 AM
True. We know he's exhausted during most of memory 4 after entering the Animus (him asking Vidic if he can have a rest), but the only "I think he went crazy" moment was at the end with the mind screwyness and the voices just before entering the gate to memory 5. Where he seemed strangely normal, just as with memory 6. There are some curious instances of random laughter, though...

Ngh. I want to play to, but I'm currently talking a break because last time I did I almost burst into tears. And after checking EscoBlades playthrough just now as well... being so oversensitive is so annoying :|

I agree, going into this DLC, I expected lots of craziness, but there was a surprising lack of that. And being sensitive is a good thing :) I spent days being sad after finishing the main story of Revelations and watching Embers. The departure of Altair and Ezio had me literally grieving over them for a few days. In a way, I'm almost glad we didn't see Clay be insane, because we'd see him gradually break up mentally and deteriorate until his death. That would have had me crying.


I've actually entertained the notion that this isn't AI but original!Clay, but I know there's little chance of that happening. (It does fit into the heaven imagery in memory 7 though... He can't enter the last gate -- heaven -- because he's not dead. Your idea to explain that makes a lot more sense and is less pure symbolism, though.)

I tend to swap between looking at things symbolically and then more practically, and the actual series tends to do the same. Assassin's Creed screams symbolism, and it has done it the most through the Truth puzzles and now these 1st person segments. In the Desmond, Altair and Ezio 3rd person sections, I would pass things off as gameplay. But these 1st person sections, although they have gameplay, seem to be created solely for the story and the symbolism, so I don't think we can discount anything. And the heaven imagery, it's very interesting that you can view it in two distinctly separate ways, one suiting AI!Clay more, and one suiting original!Clay more. I'm sure UbiSoft intended it that way. We just have to figure which one they are truly going for.


I've never seen any of the multiplayer scenes :| I'll go and check them out. But I think it's important to note that in normal first person view you can still see your body, while no matter how much you turn the camera here you'll only ever see your surroundings. It's of course odd that a formless mass of data has trouble passing through certain openings (there's a few times where you can go through really narrow or low passages but as soon as laser's are involved, prepare to be stuck :|) It's also odd that there are different "dying" animations -- falling too far, being hit by a laser (which I find quite creepy... and it happens to me all the time :/) and simply touching one of the blue/red box/floor thingies.

I might be wrong, but I'm pretty sure the multiplayer character never sees himself either. Of course you don't control the camera though. Yeah, I'd go watch them. The last one contains something that I am sure will play heavily into AC3's Desmond story-line. I won't spoil it here ;)

I'm not squeamish usually, but I do physically jump a little bit every time I either hit a laser, or the blue blocks/floor. I don't know why, maybe it is the closeness of the 1st person view. I have played 1st person games before though. Probably the story drawing me in a little too much.


He said something about Eagle Vision in Ezio's database entry, I think, I can't remember if he mentioned having it, though. And Jupiter says something about the Nexus of time that had always been Minerva's strength regarding their ability to communicate with Desmond. I just watched Brotherhood's ending again, and Juno seems different from the others there... and apparently the only one who also contacts Clay. I also wonder if there's something hidden in her ramblings that may help with this, but I am not at all familiar with Brotherhood speculation since I only started to lurk here shortly before Revelations came out. (She does say something similar to them in memory 7: "They must all suffer as we suffered.")

Juno seems much angrier than the other two TWCB we've seen. I like to think that Minerva wants to save humans (she lays out the "plan" in AC2), Juno wants them to suffer, and Jupiter is just indifferent. It maintains a nice balance there, and Gods are balanced in many mythologies. I do wonder why they picked it to be Juno who would contact Clay. Why not Minerva or Jupiter? Hmm... there has to be a reason they used Juno.

From what I remember Brotherhood speculation revolved around Lucy being a traitor or pregnant with Desmond's child, and all of Clay's ramblings, mostly revolving around Eden and him saying "Your son". William talking post-credits fueled a ton of speculation on whether someone was in an animus experiencing Desmond which was all quite fun.


And I'd be... disappointed if Scheduled for Deletion and The Lost Archive was the last we've seen of Clay. He's been there since the very beginning, there are still so many unanswered questions regarding him -- for very one Lost Archive answered, it created a new one, after all. I don't know how he'll return, but I do hope he does. (Sappy as I am, if they'd make a ridiculous happy ending for him I'd probably be happy...)

That they made an entire DLC about him gives me hope, and seeing him so much has turned him into one of my favourite characters of the series. He's so tragic, what with being turned insane and then knowing he had to die to save a man he didn't even know...yeah, it's sad stuff, but it makes his character so much stronger.


Also rewatched River Styx and the noise. It reminds me a bit of an engine, but that makes no sense, so I have no idea. It's also rather foreboding, but we get to the leave the creepy "the souls of the dead are screaming don't make turn off the noise game" part.

Now that you mention it, it does kind of sound like an engine. When I read that, I thought of a train engine, but I have no idea what significance that would have either. They hadn't thought of trains when all the legends about Styx and Heaven were made after all.


Desmond's Journey is different in also of ways with the way it's done -- collect data fragments, different gates... Lost Archive has the memories in one long sequence with no returns to Animus Island -- indeed, we only visit it when already in there. There's also a lot more representations of actual places -- the funeral, the animus lab, Abstergo, the psychiatrist's room, the rooms and stairs during the heaven part, as well as differently done symbolism -- compare Desmond's river when he leaves the farm to River Styx, which even has a boat at the start. I don't know if they simply refined it or if that has a meaning as well. (That's the problem with the symbolism here -- how much is actual, intended symbolism, how much is simply for gameplay or even aesthetic purposes?)

AI!Clay being Desmond's guide is very true though, considering his role in Revelations, though Desmond never comes by Styx in the first place. (Of course, the closest to dying he gets is his coma.)

Data fragments and decipher fragments are similar though, and I feel they serve the same purpose, although it doesn't seem that way at first glance. I tihnk they both allow the 'reading of data' for the Animus. In Desmond's case, it allows him to unlock his own memories, which in turn separates them from Altair and Ezio's, allowing him to access the synch nexus. In Clay's case, it depends on if he's the AI all the time or not. If he is the AI, then maybe he continues to go through the loop, but every now and then collects a decipher fragments, allowing him to decipher his own memories, and eventually become whole and unlock the backdoor. If he's the real Clay it makes much less sense, unless the insanity required him to piece his memories back together.


The common interpretation seems to be that it refers to the biblical Adam being created out of clay and Adam being Clay's ancestor, therefore "creating" him. It does make sense, though the quote also has events happen the other way around, and I wouldn't be surprised if there's more to it.

That just doesn't stick right with me. Interchanging Clay with clay feels wrong somehow. And since Adam appears further on I think there's alot more to it, though since I don't know what I guess I don't make much of a point.


C: I got into it for the story in the first place actually. Started by watching playthroughs of AC1 and 2.

So did I! :D

Somebody told me to buy AC2 because it had this great dual-developing story with all this historical tie-ins and everything but I didn't feel right starting from the second one so I bought the first one instead. Fortunately, I just happened to love the gameplay too. I even love the puzzles of these 1st person sections.

GeneralTrumbo
03-04-2012, 01:19 AM
I agree, going into this DLC, I expected lots of craziness, but there was a surprising lack of that. And being sensitive is a good thing :) I spent days being sad after finishing the main story of Revelations and watching Embers. The departure of Altair and Ezio had me literally grieving over them for a few days. In a way, I'm almost glad we didn't see Clay be insane, because we'd see him gradually break up mentally and deteriorate until his death. That would have had me crying.

I don't think that the DLC really lacked "craziness" because there was some crazy moments to it. "The Bleeding Effect" memory was a pretty crazy memory in my opinion, as well as the last memory, especially after crossing River Styx. And the memory where Clay entered the animus was a huge moment. Towards the end when everything started spazzing out around him was just wierd. And the whole Jesus on the cross thing was just odd as well...talk about craziness. And then we got to see the symbols that were on the wall in AC1 once again. That was a pretty good thing.

jamgamerforever
03-04-2012, 01:27 AM
I actually have a rather simple point that is annoying me, but maybe I'm just not seeing the obvious. If Vidic knew that Ezio once possessed the Apple, why did he have Desmond play as Altair? Why would the Templars need that map when they only need one Apple to power the Eye-Abstergo?

Was it that Clay made it appear as if Ezio never had the Apple?

Apirka
03-04-2012, 02:18 AM
I agree, going into this DLC, I expected lots of craziness, but there was a surprising lack of that. And being sensitive is a good thing :) I spent days being sad after finishing the main story of Revelations and watching Embers. The departure of Altair and Ezio had me literally grieving over them for a few days. In a way, I'm almost glad we didn't see Clay be insane, because we'd see him gradually break up mentally and deteriorate until his death. That would have had me crying.

Scheduled for Deletion actually left me so angry that I managed to pull myself together <.< I watched the whole credit sequence expecting him to show up, and after nothing happened I was too annoyed to be sad. Then I slowly realized that they hadn't told us about any of the things that Clay had rambled on about and came to the conclusion that ending his story that way didn't make sense. Then came the sadness...


tend to swap between looking at things symbolically and then more practically, and the actual series tends to do the same. Assassin's Creed screams symbolism, and it has done it the most through the Truth puzzles and now these 1st person segments. In the Desmond, Altair and Ezio 3rd person sections, I would pass things off as gameplay. But these 1st person sections, although they have gameplay, seem to be created solely for the story and the symbolism, so I don't think we can discount anything. And the heaven imagery, it's very interesting that you can view it in two distinctly separate ways, one suiting AI!Clay more, and one suiting original!Clay more. I'm sure UbiSoft intended it that way. We just have to figure which one they are truly going for.


I wonder though if mixing practical with symbolic makes more sense than going for pure symbolism. The last gate being the way to his body has symbolism -- it's the way back to where he wants to go -- AI!Clay's "heaven" -- but he falls all the way back down and can't reach it. But it's also practical and fits nicely into the story.

I do wonder though how many of the puzzles can be seen as symbolic. River Styx, of course, evading the lasers when William just talked about obstacles -- and how much of the environment is symbolism. Even when you get abilities and when they're taken and when you you have to use the grey blocks. Though a lot of that seems like it's more about characterization than story relevant.



I might be wrong, but I'm pretty sure the multiplayer character never sees himself either. Of course you don't control the camera though. Yeah, I'd go watch them. The last one contains something that I am sure will play heavily into AC3's Desmond story-line. I won't spoil it here ;)

I always found it weird when a first person view game would have always present hands, so it might just be a more realistic take to the concept or it does after all have a meaning. Does ACB'S multiplayer have those scenes?


I'm not squeamish usually, but I do physically jump a little bit every time I either hit a laser, or the blue blocks/floor. I don't know why, maybe it is the closeness of the 1st person view. I have played 1st person games before though. Probably the story drawing me in a little too much.


I'm not really bothered by the blue blocks/floor because you just show back up on the last bit of concrete you stood on. The lasers have that creepy noise and zoom and ugh. When I imagined hearing a fragment in that laser elevator part ion memory 4... I'm really easily creeped out.


Juno seems much angrier than the other two TWCB we've seen. I like to think that Minerva wants to save humans (she lays out the "plan" in AC2), Juno wants them to suffer, and Jupiter is just indifferent. It maintains a nice balance there, and Gods are balanced in many mythologies. I do wonder why they picked it to be Juno who would contact Clay. Why not Minerva or Jupiter? Hmm... there has to be a reason they used Juno.

She does shout during her ramblings when Desmond gets the power back so they can reach the apple. I don't think the other two ever shouted. She also seems... disappointed because humans do not know, and yet she also goes on about how they kept the sixth sense, knowledge, from them. She actually says a lot of interesting things, especially since she's much more cryptic than Jupiter or Minerva. (Maybe she's Clay's ancestor and he has his knack for cryptic messages from her ;) ?)


From what I remember Brotherhood speculation revolved around Lucy being a traitor or pregnant with Desmond's child, and all of Clay's ramblings, mostly revolving around Eden and him saying "Your son". William talking post-credits fueled a ton of speculation on whether someone was in an animus experiencing Desmond which was all quite fun.

Shame I wasn't around back then. But there was nothing about all the other stuff? I think she may be the most informative of the TWCB.


That they made an entire DLC about him gives me hope, and seeing him so much has turned him into one of my favourite characters of the series. He's so tragic, what with being turned insane and then knowing he had to die to save a man he didn't even know...yeah, it's sad stuff, but it makes his character so much stronger.

It seems strange developing his character without answering most story relevant questions, true. I mean, we learned that Lucy was indeed a Templar, but not anything about the other stuff that had to do with him, but a lot about his family. As he's been my favourite since I saw AC2 (and already had a tendency to make me cry :|) I really hope they're going to give his story a really good ending.


Now that you mention it, it does kind of sound like an engine. When I read that, I thought of a train engine, but I have no idea what significance that would have either. They hadn't thought of trains when all the legends about Styx and Heaven were made after all.

I wonder if that has to do with the animus? But it's a bit too early for Animus noises, since it's before entering the blue room. I can't think of any other noise that sounds similar to that, though...



Data fragments and decipher fragments are similar though, and I feel they serve the same purpose, although it doesn't seem that way at first glance. I tihnk they both allow the 'reading of data' for the Animus. In Desmond's case, it allows him to unlock his own memories, which in turn separates them from Altair and Ezio's, allowing him to access the synch nexus. In Clay's case, it depends on if he's the AI all the time or not. If he is the AI, then maybe he continues to go through the loop, but every now and then collects a decipher fragments, allowing him to decipher his own memories, and eventually become whole and unlock the backdoor. If he's the real Clay it makes much less sense, unless the insanity required him to piece his memories back together.

Looking at it that way they really are quite similar, actually, even if they're presented differently. And if it is original!Clay that would mean he survived his suicide and perhaps has to put his fractured mind back together after the toll the bleeding effect and his descent into madness -- maybe even depression? -- put on his mind. I wonder why viewing your own memory is done in such a different style than viewing your ancestors memory.


That just doesn't stick right with me. Interchanging Clay with clay feels wrong somehow. And since Adam appears further on I think there's alot more to it, though since I don't know what I guess I don't make much of a point.

Clay, as far as I know, is not a too common name, so that could message could be the reason why they named him that way in the first place, but I agree, it seems to simple. It's odd that there are hidden clues to things though -- I don't think Desmond had those, and why would Clay encrypt his own memories like that? Or is that a metaphor for the state his mind is in? A left over from his Assassin training?


So did I! :D

Somebody told me to buy AC2 because it had this great dual-developing story with all this historical tie-ins and everything but I didn't feel right starting from the second one so I bought the first one instead. Fortunately, I just happened to love the gameplay too. I even love the puzzles of these 1st person sections.

For the longest time I thought I sucked at the game play because I had such a hard time with Bloodlines. Then I finally beat it, decided to buy a 360 already and really loved the gameplay c: (Even if I do kind of suck because I can never judge the distances properly.)


I don't think that the DLC really lacked "craziness" because there was some crazy moments to it. "The Bleeding Effect" memory was a pretty crazy memory in my opinion, as well as the last memory, especially after crossing River Styx. And the memory where Clay entered the animus was a huge moment. Towards the end when everything started spazzing out around him was just wierd. And the whole Jesus on the cross thing was just odd as well...talk about craziness. And then we got to see the symbols that were on the wall in AC1 once again. That was a pretty good thing.

There was quite some crazyness, true, but from what we hear Clay say he seems still so sane even after The Bleeding Effect.


I actually have a rather simple point that is annoying me, but maybe I'm just not seeing the obvious. If Vidic knew that Ezio once possessed the Apple, why did he have Desmond play as Altair? Why would the Templars need that map when they only need one Apple to power the Eye-Abstergo?

Was it that Clay made it appear as if Ezio never had the Apple?

Perhaps, or perhaps they were trying to fool the Assassin's or wanted both, so they could get the other pieces too, just in case. Someone made an interesting theory about it, I just can't remember where it was...

The13Doctors
03-04-2012, 02:20 AM
I just finished the DLC and I've noticed that many of the things from the trailer aren't in the game. The shots of Lucy, Rebecca talking, I never saw any of that in game.

Seems like key points...?

zerocooll21
03-04-2012, 02:33 AM
Yah the rebecca talking to vidic never came up in the DLC, strange.

@Apirka / jamgamerforever, thanks for the great read :)

The13Doctors
03-04-2012, 02:39 AM
Referring to the voices heard, here's what they said.

"I look from my enemies from friends may God protect"
-Italian

"Nothing so much as a secret Peer"
-French

An interesting point about the french is that I followed up on the word Peer, I came across this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peerage_of_France

Look at the timing.

Coincidence?

Gil_217
03-04-2012, 01:07 PM
I actually have a rather simple point that is annoying me, but maybe I'm just not seeing the obvious. If Vidic knew that Ezio once possessed the Apple, why did he have Desmond play as Altair? Why would the Templars need that map when they only need one Apple to power the Eye-Abstergo?

Was it that Clay made it appear as if Ezio never had the Apple?

This is a very interesting question that I thought about too when I was playing the DLC, but I couldn't come up with a proper answer.

I mean, Clay couldn't possibly hide that information from Vidic because Vidic was watching him all the time, and even if he wasn't, he probably had video tapes to check later.

So I don't understand too why they (Templars) didn't make Desmond relive Ezio's memories in the first place.

And they had to know that Ezio had some important information that they wanted, because even before their "escape", Lucy already knew they had to relive Ezio's memories.

zerocooll21
03-04-2012, 01:34 PM
IIRC Abstergo knew Altiar at some point saw a map of all POE locations so I'm guessing thats what they were after. In ACI thats the memory they want to start with but since Des has to Sync with Altiar he had to relieve a lot of his life.

Lucy was covering for Clay on the video tapes just as she did for Desmond.

Gil_217
03-04-2012, 01:46 PM
IIRC Abstergo knew Altair at some point saw a map of all POE locations so I'm guessing thats what they were after. In ACI thats the memory they want to start with but since Des has to Sync with Altair he had to relieve a lot of his life.

Lucy was covering for Clay on the video tapes just as she did for Desmond.

Still, that doesn't make much sense. In The Lost Archive, when they found Desmond, Vidic says he's the perfect candidate for what they want, and what they want is to find an Apple, to complete the Eye-Abstergo.

From Clay, they were already aware of Ezio and is importance, so why didn't they just relive his memories in the first place with Desmond.

And, even if they were aware that Altair saw a map with locations of others Pieces of Eden (how they know this is beyond me), that was in 1191, probably they weren't even there anymore, and as far as we know, they didn't retrieve nothing from the locations of the map, so it's just really stupid.

In the Lost Archive, they don't even acknowledge Altair, it just looks like that Altair came out of nowhere.

GLHS
03-04-2012, 01:55 PM
They weren't aware that Ezio held an apple. They found out from Clay's less than stable memories of Ezio that Altair held an apple and somehow found a map of the other locations, so they went looking for a direct descendant of Altair's. Vidic was always so interested in Ezio though, and forced Clay to try and relive all of Ezio memories. He couldn't get a good synch with him though, since his mind was pretty far gone and he wasn't close enough in decendance.

Also, of course, they only need one artifact for Eye-Abstergo, but they're Templars and they're greedy, so once they found the map, they wanted to make sure that all of them were under their care instead of the Assassin's.

LightRey
03-04-2012, 01:57 PM
They weren't aware that Ezio held an apple. They found out from Clay's less than stable memories of Ezio that Altair held an apple, so they went looking for a direct descendant of Altair's. Vidic was always so interested in Ezio though, and forced Clay to try and relive all of Ezio memories. He couldn't get a good synch with him though, since his mind was pretty far gone and he wasn't close enough in decendance.

Actually, they were. Vidic actually gives Lucy the mission to steal the apple once they've found it.

GLHS
03-04-2012, 02:00 PM
He only was aware after Clay was long gone and she "broke Desmond out." Once he was close to the Apple, Vidic told her to take it and bring it back to them. I'm talking about when Clay was still alive and in the Animus. They had no idea at that time, they only knew Ezio knew of Altair holding one.

jamgamerforever
03-04-2012, 02:02 PM
Scheduled for Deletion actually left me so angry that I managed to pull myself together <.< I watched the whole credit sequence expecting him to show up, and after nothing happened I was too annoyed to be sad. Then I slowly realized that they hadn't told us about any of the things that Clay had rambled on about and came to the conclusion that ending his story that way didn't make sense. Then came the sadness...

Yeah, but we didn't expect Lucy's story to end in Brotherhood. Well, I didn't at least. They put so much emphasis on Animus Island being deleted, and it makes me hopeful and disheartened at the same time :P


I wonder though if mixing practical with symbolic makes more sense than going for pure symbolism. The last gate being the way to his body has symbolism -- it's the way back to where he wants to go -- AI!Clay's "heaven" -- but he falls all the way back down and can't reach it. But it's also practical and fits nicely into the story.

I do wonder though how many of the puzzles can be seen as symbolic. River Styx, of course, evading the lasers when William just talked about obstacles -- and how much of the environment is symbolism. Even when you get abilities and when they're taken and when you have to use the grey blocks. Though a lot of that seems like it's more about characterization than story relevant.

Sorting it all out is the hard part! Having Clay have the "jump pad" whereas Desmond does not says something to me though I'm not quite sure what. Of course it could just be gameplay-driven, but it's not really used all that much, so I doubt it.


I always found it weird when a first person view game would have always present hands, so it might just be a more realistic take to the concept or it does after all have a meaning. Does ACB'S multiplayer have those scenes?

No, ACB had only an opening cutscene of Vidic describing the Animus, Revelations has the whole sub-plot with the modern day Templars. I don't enjoy the multiplayer too much so I got about half-way then watched the rest of youtube :(


She does shout during her ramblings when Desmond gets the power back so they can reach the apple. I don't think the other two ever shouted. She also seems... disappointed because humans do not know, and yet she also goes on about how they kept the sixth sense, knowledge, from them. She actually says a lot of interesting things, especially since she's much more cryptic than Jupiter or Minerva. (Maybe she's Clay's ancestor and he has his knack for cryptic messages from her ;) ?)

Shame I wasn't around back then. But there was nothing about all the other stuff? I think she may be the most informative of the TWCB.

The thing is, what she says is cryptic, but if you go to the wiki and just read the dialogue, most of it made sense. All the stuff about 6 senses, avoiding death, joining TWCB with humans, and the Pieces of Eden. There wasn't too much to speculate about other than will we see Jupiter as we saw Minerva and Juno?


It seems strange developing his character without answering most story relevant questions, true. I mean, we learned that Lucy was indeed a Templar, but not anything about the other stuff that had to do with him, but a lot about his family. As he's been my favourite since I saw AC2 (and already had a tendency to make me cry :|) I really hope they're going to give his story a really good ending.

Since the modern day stuff will come to a head in AC3, it would make sense not to reveal everything to us, even though the game before is called Revelations :)

I hope he gets a happy ending too, though I'm not entirely sure how that would even be possible.


Looking at it that way they really are quite similar, actually, even if they're presented differently. And if it is original!Clay that would mean he survived his suicide and perhaps has to put his fractured mind back together after the toll the bleeding effect and his descent into madness -- maybe even depression? -- put on his mind. I wonder why viewing your own memory is done in such a different style than viewing your ancestors memory.

I look at it as viewing your ancestor's life through DNA is basically using the sixth sense that TWCB speak of, but in a very primitive manner. Therefore looking at your own memories is using your regular 5 senses, and would lack detail compared to "having your eyes open". I love the symbolism of this too, that you can clearly see your ancestors lives, but your own life and fate is muddled and confused.

However, Desmond does say they must be in the Animus data core doesn't he? Right when he goes into the first gate. Why does it take place here, of all places?


Clay, as far as I know, is not a too common name, so that could message could be the reason why they named him that way in the first place, but I agree, it seems to simple. It's odd that there are hidden clues to things though -- I don't think Desmond had those, and why would Clay encrypt his own memories like that? Or is that a metaphor for the state his mind is in? A left over from his Assassin training?

Well, yeah, I mean we didn't know his name until Revelations did we? And even then it was only in the encyclopedia. The first in-universe time we see his name is in this DLC. He seems to like leaving clues everywhere, but they were all for Desmond - and we've already decided Desmond isn't watching these, that just wouldn't make sense at this point in time. So did Juno leave them?


For the longest time I thought I sucked at the game play because I had such a hard time with Bloodlines. Then I finally beat it, decided to buy a 360 already and really loved the gameplay c: (Even if I do kind of suck because I can never judge the distances properly.)

I've never played Bloodlines, only read the story, so don't know if it was difficult or not. AC1 was fairly easy, unless you attacked one of the 60 Templars in the game, because they killed you in two hacks of the sword.

Fortunately in ACR, we have the hookblade, so if you misjudge the distance, more often than not, you could just grab onto a building.


Perhaps, or perhaps they were trying to fool the Assassin's or wanted both, so they could get the other pieces too, just in case. Someone made an interesting theory about it, I just can't remember where it was...

I'd love to see this because it really doesn't make any sense to me :C


@Apirka / jamgamerforever, thanks for the great read

You're very welcome :o



"Nothing so much as a secret Peer"
-French

An interesting point about the french is that I followed up on the word Peer, I came across this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peerage_of_France

Look at the timing.

Coincidence?

Odd that they would continue to hint at the French Revolution when we know they're going for the American Revolution. Though I guess that was leaked, so maybe this is all just a red herring?


They weren't aware that Ezio held an apple. They found out from Clay's less than stable memories of Ezio that Altair held an apple, so they went looking for a direct descendant of Altair's. Vidic was always so interested in Ezio though, and forced Clay to try and relive all of Ezio memories. He couldn't get a good synch with him though, since his mind was pretty far gone and he wasn't close enough in decendance.

This makes sense apart from that Clay overhears some people saying that Ezio has an Apple. And Lucy covering anything up doesn't really make sense now does it? Unless she was having a change of heart because of Desmond...

LightRey
03-04-2012, 02:02 PM
He only was aware after Clay was long gone and she "broke Desmond out." Once he was close to the Apple, Vidic told her to take it and bring it back to them.

Maybe. They never do show how exactly they found out about Ezio's apple.

GLHS
03-04-2012, 02:04 PM
It says in Desmond's wki that that's why they starting looking for him, and it's part of Vidic's dialogue in the DLC.

Gil_217
03-04-2012, 02:05 PM
Actually, they were. Vidic actually gives Lucy the mission to steal the apple once they've found it.

Exactly. They already knew that Ezio had an Apple, they just needed to know where was it. Lucy already knew what she had to do before "escaping" Abstergo. Find Ezio's Apple through Desmond relieving Ezio's memories and then deliver it to the Templars.

My question is why didn't they relived Ezio's memories in the first place with Desmond?

And, like I said in my previous posts, that map with the locations of the Pieces of Eden that Altair saw wasn't even that important, since that map was probably outdated, not to mention that the Templars had already found almost all the Apples before, in 1969 they had 4 Apples ( Glyph Puzzles).

LightRey
03-04-2012, 02:05 PM
It says in Desmond's wki that that's why they starting looking for him, and it's part of Vidic's dialogue in the DLC.

I'm still talking about them knowing about Ezio's apple.

jamgamerforever
03-04-2012, 02:10 PM
I'm still talking about them knowing about Ezio's apple.

# Italian Man 1: There is an old tale, passed down through the ages, that the Apple of Eden was not flesh at all, but solid like marble or bronze. They say incredible power will be granted to the man who holds it. Truthfully, I believe such lies to be little more than blasphemy.
# Warren: If he sees the Apple, let me know immediately.
# Italian Man 1: Have you heard of the Assassino (Assassin)?
# Italian Man 2: Sì. (Yes.) Ezio Auditore.
# Warren: Find out about this Ezio Auditore. I want his records on my desk by the end of the week.

It's not directly stated but I think Vidic could work that out.

LightRey
03-04-2012, 02:12 PM
# Italian Man 1: There is an old tale, passed down through the ages, that the Apple of Eden was not flesh at all, but solid like marble or bronze. They say incredible power will be granted to the man who holds it. Truthfully, I believe such lies to be little more than blasphemy.
# Warren: If he sees the Apple, let me know immediately.
# Italian Man 1: Have you heard of the Assassino (Assassin)?
# Italian Man 2: Sì. (Yes.) Ezio Auditore.
# Warren: Find out about this Ezio Auditore. I want his records on my desk by the end of the week.

It's not directly stated but I think Vidic could work that out.

Exactly.

Gil_217
03-04-2012, 02:15 PM
So, here comes the question again, why didn't the Templars used Desmond to relive Ezio's memory's in the first place in order to find the Apple they wanted so much?

jamgamerforever
03-04-2012, 02:16 PM
Exactly.

Yeah, I suppose the problem is we don't know how much time has passed between those pieces of dialogue. If the Apple dialogue happened, and then 3/4 months later Ezio was mentioned, that link wouldn't be established would it?

The problem is that nothing in the Altair memories suggests that Ezio would have it, therefore they already knew to look at Ezio. Was Altair just to get Desmond used to the Animus? Does experiencing Ezio cause difficulties and perhaps a speed-up of the Bleeding Effect due to how much contact he had with the Apple?


So, here comes the question again, why didn't the Templars used Desmond to relive Ezio's memory's in the first place in order to find the Apple they wanted so much?

Yeah, they HAD to know else they wouldn't have explored Ezio in AC2. It doesn't make sense :'(

LightRey
03-04-2012, 02:23 PM
So, here comes the question again, why didn't the Templars used Desmond to relive Ezio's memory's in the first place in order to find the Apple they wanted so much?

They did. At least, they tried to. They wanted him to be more "at ease", so they let Lucy "help" him escape.

Gil_217
03-04-2012, 02:26 PM
Exactly.

And even if those dialogs are from different times, that doesn't even matter, because they were made before Desmond was brought in, so they were aware of it before Desmond was kidnapped and brought to Abstergo, in September, while Clay died in early August 2012.

jamgamerforever
03-04-2012, 02:27 PM
They did. At least, they tried to. They wanted him to be more "at ease", so they let Lucy "help" him escape.

Ah! So you think the entirety of AC1 was just a ruse to have Desmond trust Lucy. Getting the map was just an added bonus for the Templars.

Gil_217
03-04-2012, 02:28 PM
They did. At least, they tried to. They wanted him to be more "at ease", so they let Lucy "help" him escape.

No, what I'm saying is why did they wasted their time reliving Altair's memory's if they already knew that Ezio had one Apple, all they needed to do was reliving Ezio's memories using Desmond to find the Apple and mission accomplished.

zerocooll21
03-04-2012, 02:31 PM
since that map was probably outdated,

True but its not like the POE were just sitting out on display. They are most likely hidden in a temple or buried underground. Vidic seemed quite satisfied with all the locations, they wouldn't have spent all that time looking for the map if they thought it would be useless.

Either way it still begs the question why haha

Gil_217
03-04-2012, 02:35 PM
True but its not like the POE were just sitting out on display. They are most likely hidden in a temple or buried underground. Vidic seemed quite satisfied with all the locations, they wouldn't have spent all that time looking for the map if they thought it would be useless.

Either way it still begs the question why haha

Think with me, the map with the locations of the Pieces of Eden that Altair saw in 1191 is totally outdated, at least as far as the Apples are concerned, because since 1191 all the Apples changed hands more than once, the Templars even had 4 Apples in 1969 (Glyph Puzzles), so that map, as far as the Apples are concerned was irrelevant. Sure it could possibly reveal the locations of other Pieces of Eden, but I guess that could wait, the Templars have a deadline to find one Apple, so their main focus should be centered around Ezio (who they already knew had an Apple) and not Altair.

And, even if they wanted to track Altair's Apple, that would be stupid, because his Apple was the one destroyed in Denver.

zerocooll21
03-04-2012, 02:36 PM
Ah! So you think the entirety of AC1 was just a ruse to have Desmond trust Lucy. Getting the map was just an added bonus for the Templars.

This is very plausible, I like it.

zerocooll21
03-04-2012, 02:39 PM
Think with me, the map with the locations of the Pieces of Eden that Altair saw in 1191 is totally outdated, at least as far as the Apples are concerned, because since 1191 all the Apples changed hands more than once, the Templars even had 4 Apples in 1969 (Glyph Puzzles), so that map, as far as the Apples are concerned was irrelevant. Sure it could possibly reveal the locations of other Pieces of Eden, but I guess that could wait, the Templars have a deadline to find one Apple, so their main focus should be centered around Ezio (who they already knew had an Apple) and not Altair.

And, even if they wanted to track Altair's Apple, that would be stupid, because his Apple was the one destroyed in Denver.


Ahh I see what you're saying now. Good points, i have no idea.

jamgamerforever
03-04-2012, 02:43 PM
Think with me, the map with the locations of the Pieces of Eden that Altair saw in 1191 is totally outdated, at least as far as the Apples are concerned, because since 1191 all the Apples changed hands more than once, the Templars even had 4 Apples in 1969 (Glyph Puzzles), so that map, as far as the Apples are concerned was irrelevant. Sure it could possibly reveal the locations of other Pieces of Eden, but I guess that could wait, the Templars have a deadline to find one Apple, so their main focus should be centered around Ezio (who they already knew had an Apple) and not Altair.

And, even if they wanted to track Altair's Apple, that would be stupid, because his Apple was the one destroyed in Denver.

Though I still don't understand why they put so much emphasis on Altair's Apple (the 2nd Apple) being in the Library. I got that Altair knew the 6th Apple was at Cyprus, and by fueling those rumours, kind of eliminated the 2nd one from existence. Everybody thought his Apple was the 6th, so the 2nd one was lost to time.

I have the feeling that we already have the retcon for the Denver destruction. The Templars just mistakenly identified the Apples, is all?

Why was the 2nd Apple being there played as the big revelation of the game? (at least for the Ezio/Altair storyline)

Gil_217
03-04-2012, 02:46 PM
Ah! So you think the entirety of AC1 was just a ruse to have Desmond trust Lucy. Getting the map was just an added bonus for the Templars.

Thing is, why go in that much more difficult way when they could just had acquired the Apple if they relived Ezio's memories with Desmond at Abstergo.

Not to mention that they still could had staged that ruse while reliving Ezio's memories at Abstergo, it would be a little stupid though.

And, of course, if that was the plan it failed miserably because of "outside" interference ( Juno controlling Desmond into killing Lucy), whilst if they had gone by the easy way, they would be much more successful and in significantly less time, not to mention the risks that sending Lucy to the Assassin's had.

Well, I guess they like to do it the hard way, if you know what I mean.

LightRey
03-04-2012, 03:02 PM
No, what I'm saying is why did they wasted their time reliving Altair's memory's if they already knew that Ezio had one Apple, all they needed to do was reliving Ezio's memories using Desmond to find the Apple and mission accomplished.

Because they already knew Altaïr would help them find many more. Why waste your time on Ezio to find the location of just one apple if you can find the location of dozens?

Gil_217
03-04-2012, 03:05 PM
Because they already knew Altaïr would help them find many more. Why waste your time on Ezio to find the location of just one apple if you can find the location of dozens?

I see that you didn't read my previous posts, here it goes:

The map with the locations of the Pieces of Eden that Altair saw in 1191 is totally outdated, at least as far as the Apples are concerned, because since 1191 all the Apples changed hands more than once, the Templars even had 4 Apples in 1969 (Glyph Puzzles), so that map, as far as the Apples are concerned was irrelevant. Sure it could possibly reveal the locations of other Pieces of Eden, but I guess that could wait, the Templars have a deadline to find one Apple, so their main focus should be centered around Ezio (who they already knew had an Apple) and not Altair.

And, even if they wanted to track Altair's Apple, that would be stupid, because his Apple was the one destroyed in Denver.

And one more thing, by your logic, why in the hell did they used Lucy to make Desmond relive Ezio's memories later?

Apirka
03-04-2012, 03:05 PM
Where did you get that translation? Every other one I've seen was along the lines of "Nothing weighs so heavily on us than a secret."

[QUOTE=GLHS;8167457]He only was aware after Clay was long gone and she "broke Desmond out." Once he was close to the Apple, Vidic told her to take it and bring it back to them. I'm talking about when Clay was still alive and in the Animus. They had no idea at that time, they only knew Ezio knew of Altair holding one.

No, play through The Truth again. Vidic tells Lucy about his plans for Desmond and possibly bringing him to the Assassin's to make him more comfortable and therefore make it easier for him to view memories and how he'd come and pick up the tapes. Considering they knew Ezio was important and Lucy immediately goes for viewing Ezio's...


Yeah, but we didn't expect Lucy's story to end in Brotherhood. Well, I didn't at least. They put so much emphasis on Animus Island being deleted, and it makes me hopeful and disheartened at the same time :P

I started with AC a few months after Brotherhood was released and one of the first things my friend told me was that Lucy gets stabbed.

And his whole role in ACR is odd. He never talks about the things he's rambled on before and then there's that random deletion. It would be really silly if there's not more to it, yo yeah.




Sorting it all out is the hard part! Having Clay have the "jump pad" whereas Desmond does not says something to me though I'm not quite sure what. Of course it could just be gameplay-driven, but it's not really used all that much, so I doubt it.

I think it is interesting that he only gets the jump pad a few times -- when fleeing Abstego and during memory 7. And at his weakest points -- before the order and during The Bleeding Effect -- he doesn't have anything and has to rely on the grey blocks to get further.



The thing is, what she says is cryptic, but if you go to the wiki and just read the dialogue, most of it made sense. All the stuff about 6 senses, avoiding death, joining TWCB with humans, and the Pieces of Eden. There wasn't too much to speculate about other than will we see Jupiter as we saw Minerva and Juno?


True. reading through it it seems a lot more coherent. Although... "You are they. You possess the potential for understanding." and then she goes on about the PoEs- Could that have something to do with the mysterious they in "They must all suffered as we suffered."?


Since the modern day stuff will come to a head in AC3, it would make sense not to reveal everything to us, even though the game before is called Revelations :)

I hope he gets a happy ending too, though I'm not entirely sure how that would even be possible.

Indeed! But it does mean that his story can't be over yet.


I look at it as viewing your ancestor's life through DNA is basically using the sixth sense that TWCB speak of, but in a very primitive manner. Therefore looking at your own memories is using your regular 5 senses, and would lack detail compared to "having your eyes open". I love the symbolism of this too, that you can clearly see your ancestors lives, but your own life and fate is muddled and confused.

However, Desmond does say they must be in the Animus data core doesn't he? Right when he goes into the first gate. Why does it take place here, of all places?

I wondered if it's because he isn't viewing genetic memory? Maybe the genetic memory of one's own life is only added to the gametes and the Animus doesn't use those to access memories? And instead uses information from his brain to make those puzzles. I find it a bit weird that the core of the Animus, where there are supposedly no simulations seems so... simulated.


Well, yeah, I mean we didn't know his name until Revelations did we? And even then it was only in the encyclopedia. The first in-universe time we see his name is in this DLC. He seems to like leaving clues everywhere, but they were all for Desmond - and we've already decided Desmond isn't watching these, that just wouldn't make sense at this point in time. So did Juno leave them?

It's mentioned in his database entry but IIRC that glitched and didn't show up when the game first came out. Perhaps it was Juno but how did she get access to his memories to put those in? Or maybe they are clues he left to himself, something he'll need later on.


I've never played Bloodlines, only read the story, so don't know if it was difficult or not. AC1 was fairly easy, unless you attacked one of the 60 Templars in the game, because they killed you in two hacks of the sword.

Fortunately in ACR, we have the hookblade, so if you misjudge the distance, more often than not, you could just grab onto a building.

It's not really hard but it took me ages to get a grip on how things work. When I sat down and didn't stop after the first failure I managed.

And the hookblade is wonderful. Running through Constantinople was so wonderfully easy, especially compared to my current attempts to get anything done in Venice :|


I'd love to see this because it really doesn't make any sense to me :C

Ugh, it must be somewhere, but I went through the threads I suspected and didn't find anything. Does anyone else remember where that theory was?



This makes sense apart from that Clay overhears some people saying that Ezio has an Apple. And Lucy covering anything up doesn't really make sense now does it? Unless she was having a change of heart because of Desmond...

She covered for Clay as well and destroyed the evidence of him seeing her conversation with Vidic. Seems like she tried to minimize the damage done to them as long as it didn't hurt Templar plans. (Not that makes her betrayal any better, hmph :|)



Incidentally, at the end of The Truth Clay realizes he's trapped and it takes a few seconds for the door to memory 7 to appear. Does anyone have an idea what the door could symbolize? It can't be the suicide yet since we find Lucy's letter in the next memory.

LightRey
03-04-2012, 03:11 PM
I see that you didn't read my previous posts, here it goes:

The map with the locations of the Pieces of Eden that Altair saw in 1191 is totally outdated, at least as far as the Apples are concerned, because since 1191 all the Apples changed hands more than once, the Templars even had 4 Apples in 1969 (Glyph Puzzles), so that map, as far as the Apples are concerned was irrelevant. Sure it could possibly reveal the locations of other Pieces of Eden, but I guess that could wait, the Templars have a deadline to find one Apple, so their main focus should be centered around Ezio (who they already knew had an Apple) and not Altair.

And, even if they wanted to track Altair's Apple, that would be stupid, because his Apple was the one destroyed in Denver.

And one more thing, by your logic, why in the hell did they used Lucy to make Desmond relive Ezio's memories later?

The map shows the locations of several dozen PoE's. There are less than one dozen we know of and considering the amount of apples we already know of and the numbers of the PoE's, there are likely many, many more apples. You're talking about the locations of about 6 PoE's, most of which have likely already been destroyed.

Again, they wanted Desmond to feel more "at ease" to make the process faster (and likely to keep Lucy's cover intact).

GLHS
03-04-2012, 03:11 PM
From Clay's Wiki: "Following Clay's physical death, the Templars were left without the location of the Vault; though they had gained the knowledge that another Assassin, Altaïr Ibn-La'Ahad, had once seen a map projected by another (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Second_Apple) Piece of Eden (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Pieces_of_Eden) that could help them find it. Searching for a descendant of both Altaïr and Ezio Auditore, Abstergo happened upon Desmond Miles. They kidnapped him, and forced him into the Animus project, labelling him Subject 17."

"Clay Kaczmarek had a rich and varied ancestry, which quickly caught the attention of Abstergo Industries. Whilst his immediate ancestors lived relatively normal lives, with many on his father's side of the family taking jobs in engineering, Clay was most notably a direct descendant of Adam (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Adam), one of the first humans (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Humans), alongside Eve (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Eve), who rose in rebellion against the First Civilization (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/First_Civilization). As Adam was a child of both a human and a member of the First Civilization, Clay had a notable concentration of First Civilization genes in his blood.[4] (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Clay_Kaczmarek#cite_note-AC2-3)

Clay also had ancestors in ancient Africa, in the Roman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Empire) forum and in the Far East. Of particular interest to Abstergo was his relation to the Italian House of Auditore (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/House_of_Auditore), founded by Domenico Auditore (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Domenico_Auditore) in the early 14th century.[4] (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Clay_Kaczmarek#cite_note-AC2-3) His Auditore bloodline ended with Ezio Auditore da Firenze (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Ezio_Auditore_da_Firenze), as Clay's next ancestor was an illegitimate child.[3] (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Clay_Kaczmarek#cite_note-ACRV-2) One of his ancestors was also connected with an unknown Queen Isabella (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_Isabella), whilst another participated in the Battle of Gettysburg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Gettysburg) during the United States (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/United_States) Civil War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War)."


"
On February 1, 2011, Clay Kaczmarek was, on schedule, captured by the Abstergo's Lineage Research and Acquisition (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Lineage_Research_and_Acquisition) and inducted into the Animus project as Subject 16. Held within the Abstergo laboratory (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Abstergo_laboratory) by Dr. Warren Vidic, Clay was forced to relive the memories of his ancestor, Ezio Auditore da Firenze (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Ezio_Auditore_da_Firenze) for dangerously long periods at a time. Throughout this, Vidic kept the true purpose of their genetic explorations a secret, though Clay soon realised that their efforts were focused on locating the mythical Apple of Eden (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Ezio's_Apple). When Clay enquired about this, Vidic threatingly responded that he could not reasonably expect to be released if he knew what they truely sought. This worried Clay. However, William later told hime to focus on his task, and when the time comes, Lucy would rescue him as they were a team.[2] (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Clay_Kaczmarek#cite_note-The_Lost_Archive-1)
Eventually, Clay discovered the true purpose (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Eye-Abstergo) of the Animus project and decided that it was time for him to escape. Unfortunately however, by this point, his over-exposure to the Animus had resulted in his suffering from the Bleeding effect (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Bleeding_effect), and he soon found himself unwillingly exploring the memories of his ancestors without the use of the Animus. During one of these experiences, Clay found himself conversing with a figure calling herself Juno (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Juno), who offered a shocking revelation about the true allegiances of his supposed ally, Lucy Stillman, as well as his own destiny.[2] (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Clay_Kaczmarek#cite_note-The_Lost_Archive-1)"

So, as you can see, they were trying to locate POE's and the map of the vaults even before kidnapping Clay. They had no idea Ezio held an Apple till Desmond relived it in 2012. At the very most, they knew it was possible, and knew that Altair also had one that showed the locations of the vaults. If they knew Ezio had an Apple, they would've also known he had knowledge of where the vaults were, rendering Desmond useless.

LightRey
03-04-2012, 03:14 PM
From Clay's Wiki: "Following Clay's physical death, the Templars were left without the location of the Vault; though they had gained the knowledge that another Assassin, Altaïr Ibn-La'Ahad, had once seen a map projected by another (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Second_Apple) Piece of Eden (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Pieces_of_Eden) that could help them find it. Searching for a descendant of both Altaïr and Ezio Auditore, Abstergo happened upon Desmond Miles. They kidnapped him, and forced him into the Animus project, labelling him Subject 17."

"Clay Kaczmarek had a rich and varied ancestry, which quickly caught the attention of Abstergo Industries. Whilst his immediate ancestors lived relatively normal lives, with many on his father's side of the family taking jobs in engineering, Clay was most notably a direct descendant of Adam (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Adam), one of the first humans (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Humans), alongside Eve (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Eve), who rose in rebellion against the First Civilization (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/First_Civilization). As Adam was a child of both a human and a member of the First Civilization, Clay had a notable concentration of First Civilization genes in his blood.[4] (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Clay_Kaczmarek#cite_note-AC2-3)

Clay also had ancestors in ancient Africa, in the Roman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Empire) forum and in the Far East. Of particular interest to Abstergo was his relation to the Italian House of Auditore (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/House_of_Auditore), founded by Domenico Auditore (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Domenico_Auditore) in the early 14th century.[4] (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Clay_Kaczmarek#cite_note-AC2-3) His Auditore bloodline ended with Ezio Auditore da Firenze (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Ezio_Auditore_da_Firenze), as Clay's next ancestor was an illegitimate child.[3] (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Clay_Kaczmarek#cite_note-ACRV-2) One of his ancestors was also connected with an unknown Queen Isabella (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_Isabella), whilst another participated in the Battle of Gettysburg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Gettysburg) during the United States (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/United_States) Civil War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War)."


"
On February 1, 2011, Clay Kaczmarek was, on schedule, captured by the Abstergo's Lineage Research and Acquisition (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Lineage_Research_and_Acquisition) and inducted into the Animus project as Subject 16. Held within the Abstergo laboratory (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Abstergo_laboratory) by Dr. Warren Vidic, Clay was forced to relive the memories of his ancestor, Ezio Auditore da Firenze (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Ezio_Auditore_da_Firenze) for dangerously long periods at a time. Throughout this, Vidic kept the true purpose of their genetic explorations a secret, though Clay soon realised that their efforts were focused on locating the mythical Apple of Eden (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Ezio's_Apple). When Clay enquired about this, Vidic threatingly responded that he could not reasonably expect to be released if he knew what they truely sought. This worried Clay. However, William later told hime to focus on his task, and when the time comes, Lucy would rescue him as they were a team.[2] (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Clay_Kaczmarek#cite_note-The_Lost_Archive-1)
Eventually, Clay discovered the true purpose (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Eye-Abstergo) of the Animus project and decided that it was time for him to escape. Unfortunately however, by this point, his over-exposure to the Animus had resulted in his suffering from the Bleeding effect (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Bleeding_effect), and he soon found himself unwillingly exploring the memories of his ancestors without the use of the Animus. During one of these experiences, Clay found himself conversing with a figure calling herself Juno (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Juno), who offered a shocking revelation about the true allegiances of his supposed ally, Lucy Stillman, as well as his own destiny.[2] (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Clay_Kaczmarek#cite_note-The_Lost_Archive-1)"

So, as you can see, they were trying to locate POE's and the map ofthe vaults even before kidnapping Clay. They had no idea Ezio held an Apple till Desmond relived it in 2012.


Thank you.

Gil_217
03-04-2012, 03:18 PM
The map shows the locations of several dozen PoE's. There are less than one dozen we know of and considering the amount of apples we already know of and the numbers of the PoE's, there are likely many, many more apples. You're talking about the locations of about 6 PoE's, most of which have likely already been destroyed.

Again, they wanted Desmond to feel more "at ease" to make the process faster (and likely to keep Lucy's cover intact).



And you didn't address the last part of my post, if they already have a map that contains the locations of the Pieces of Eden, why in the hell did they staged that escape with the objective of making Desmond reliving Ezio's memories for a simple and only one Piece of Eden if they already have a map containing much more.

Yes, I know, it just doesn't make sense.

P.S. I'm sorry but I never knew there were more than 6 Apples, please redirect me to where it was stated. And remember, Apples of Eden and Pieces of Eden are not the same thing.

GLHS
03-04-2012, 03:19 PM
@Lightrey: Lol for proving you guys wrong....or for fueling your fire?

Gil_217
03-04-2012, 03:23 PM
From Clay's Wiki: "Following Clay's physical death, the Templars were left without the location of the Vault; though they had gained the knowledge that another Assassin, Altaïr Ibn-La'Ahad, had once seen a map projected by another (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Second_Apple) Piece of Eden (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Pieces_of_Eden) that could help them find it. Searching for a descendant of both Altaïr and Ezio Auditore, Abstergo happened upon Desmond Miles. They kidnapped him, and forced him into the Animus project, labelling him Subject 17."

"Clay Kaczmarek had a rich and varied ancestry, which quickly caught the attention of Abstergo Industries. Whilst his immediate ancestors lived relatively normal lives, with many on his father's side of the family taking jobs in engineering, Clay was most notably a direct descendant of Adam (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Adam), one of the first humans (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Humans), alongside Eve (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Eve), who rose in rebellion against the First Civilization (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/First_Civilization). As Adam was a child of both a human and a member of the First Civilization, Clay had a notable concentration of First Civilization genes in his blood.[4] (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Clay_Kaczmarek#cite_note-AC2-3)

Clay also had ancestors in ancient Africa, in the Roman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Empire) forum and in the Far East. Of particular interest to Abstergo was his relation to the Italian House of Auditore (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/House_of_Auditore), founded by Domenico Auditore (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Domenico_Auditore) in the early 14th century.[4] (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Clay_Kaczmarek#cite_note-AC2-3) His Auditore bloodline ended with Ezio Auditore da Firenze (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Ezio_Auditore_da_Firenze), as Clay's next ancestor was an illegitimate child.[3] (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Clay_Kaczmarek#cite_note-ACRV-2) One of his ancestors was also connected with an unknown Queen Isabella (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_Isabella), whilst another participated in the Battle of Gettysburg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Gettysburg) during the United States (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/United_States) Civil War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War)."


"
On February 1, 2011, Clay Kaczmarek was, on schedule, captured by the Abstergo's Lineage Research and Acquisition (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Lineage_Research_and_Acquisition) and inducted into the Animus project as Subject 16. Held within the Abstergo laboratory (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Abstergo_laboratory) by Dr. Warren Vidic, Clay was forced to relive the memories of his ancestor, Ezio Auditore da Firenze (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Ezio_Auditore_da_Firenze) for dangerously long periods at a time. Throughout this, Vidic kept the true purpose of their genetic explorations a secret, though Clay soon realised that their efforts were focused on locating the mythical Apple of Eden (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Ezio%27s_Apple). When Clay enquired about this, Vidic threatingly responded that he could not reasonably expect to be released if he knew what they truely sought. This worried Clay. However, William later told hime to focus on his task, and when the time comes, Lucy would rescue him as they were a team.[2] (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Clay_Kaczmarek#cite_note-The_Lost_Archive-1)
Eventually, Clay discovered the true purpose (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Eye-Abstergo) of the Animus project and decided that it was time for him to escape. Unfortunately however, by this point, his over-exposure to the Animus had resulted in his suffering from the Bleeding effect (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Bleeding_effect), and he soon found himself unwillingly exploring the memories of his ancestors without the use of the Animus. During one of these experiences, Clay found himself conversing with a figure calling herself Juno (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Juno), who offered a shocking revelation about the true allegiances of his supposed ally, Lucy Stillman, as well as his own destiny.[2] (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Clay_Kaczmarek#cite_note-The_Lost_Archive-1)"

So, as you can see, they were trying to locate POE's and the map of the vaults even before kidnapping Clay. They had no idea Ezio held an Apple till Desmond relived it in 2012. At the very most, they knew it was possible, and knew that Altair also had one that showed the locations of the vaults. If they knew Ezio had an Apple, they would've also known he had knowledge of where the vaults were, rendering Desmond useless.


The funny thing is the source for that bolded part is Assassin's Creed 1. Yeah, I loled at that.

And they are talking about the Vault, not the Apple.

LightRey
03-04-2012, 03:25 PM
And you didn't address the last part of my post, if they already have a map that contains the locations of the Pieces of Eden, why in the hell did they staged that escape with the objective of making Desmond reliving Ezio's memories for a simple and only one Piece of Eden if they already have a map containing much more.

Yes, I know, it just doesn't make sense.

P.S. I'm sorry but I never knew there were more than 6 Apples, please redirect me to where it was stated. And remember, Apples of Eden and Pieces of Eden are not the same thing.

ugh, because they still needed an apple. They probably sent teams everywhere. Considering the fact that Desmond was supposed to escape and if Lucy didn't help him either William would have gotten suspicious (thus blowing Lucy's cover), it made perfect sense to stage the escape. It made it easier to find an apple ASAP, it kept Lucy's cover intact and should have gotten her close to the Assassin leadership (Vidic basically suggested she should take the chance to kill William).

I never said there were, I'm saying it's more than likely considering the amount of PoE's on the map, the numbers of the PoE's we know of and the fact that over 2/3 of the PoE's we know of are apples.


@Lightrey: Lol for proving you guys wrong....or for fueling your fire?
For the info. Btw, I dunno about Gil, but that didn't prove me wrong.

Gil_217
03-04-2012, 03:33 PM
ugh, because they still needed an apple. They probably sent teams everywhere. Considering the fact that Desmond was supposed to escape and if Lucy didn't help him either William would have gotten suspicious (thus blowing Lucy's cover), it made perfect sense to stage the escape. It made it easier to find an apple ASAP, it kept Lucy's cover intact and should have gotten her close to the Assassin leadership (Vidic basically suggested she should take the chance to kill William).

I never said there were, I'm saying it's more than likely considering the amount of PoE's on the map, the numbers of the PoE's we know of and the fact that over 2/3 of the PoE's we know of are apples.

Look man, the Templars, in the short run, only need one Apple to complete the EYE-Abstergo. That map, as far as the Apples are concerned is totally irrelevant because since 1191 the Apples changed hands more than once. And, we have absolutely no reason to assume there is more Apples. Remember that Apples of Eden are NOT the same thing as Pieces of Eden, and Vidic clearly states that they need one APPLE.

With this said, of course that map can be important, but only in the long run, because the Templars possibly want to collect all of them (Pieces of Eden), but for now they only need one Apple, and the map is clearly irrelevant as far as the Apples are concerned.

Your explanation would only make sense if indeed it exists more than 6 Apples but that was never mentioned.

GLHS
03-04-2012, 03:37 PM
The funny thing is the source for that bolded part is Assassin's Creed 1. Yeah, I loled at that.

And they are talking about the Vault, not the Apple.

That doesn't make it wrong...it's still accurate. Yes, they were looking for the vaults, but they were also looking for the Apple, or any other pieces for that matter. They knew Altair held one that showed him a map of possible locations. Vaults, POE's, it doesn't matter. They wanted it all. It even says in the MP files in AC:R they they were very interested in finding the vaults. The Apple was more or less just for Eye-Abstergo. And again, it says that they knew Altair held a POE so they needed a descendant to find it, or at least find the info it provided. It's not like they realized that the one they destroyed was the same one.

LightRey
03-04-2012, 03:38 PM
Look man, the Templars, in the short run, only need one Apple to complete the EYE-Abstergo. That map, as far as the Apples are concerned is totally irrelevant because since 1191 the Apples changed hands more than once. And, we have absolutely no reason to assume there is more Apples. Remember that Apples of Eden are NOT the same thing as Pieces of Eden, and Vidic clearly states that they need one APPLE.

With this said, of course that map can be important, but only in the long run, because the Templars possibly want to collect all of them (Pieces of Eden), but for now they only need one Apple, and the map is clearly irrelevant as far as the Apples are concerned.

You're being ridiculous. Juno herself said that they locked up the PoE's they couldn't destroy. That, combined with the fact that there are likely many apples makes it more than likely that there are dozens of PoE's that have been locked up for centuries, if not millenia. You're also assuming that that map was a map of the locations of the PoE's in real time. You cannot know that.

And for crying out loud. AN APPLE IS A KIND OF PIECE OF EDEN! Can you read? If 60% of the known PoE's are apples, and there are, say 40 PoE's in total, what is the most accurate prediction you can make with that data on how many apples there are? That's right, 40*.6 = 24, meaning that the most accurate estimate of the total amount of Apples of Eden is 24. Seriously, I don't often do this since it breaks the rules but you're just an idiot right now.

GLHS
03-04-2012, 03:41 PM
You're being ridiculous.

And for crying out loud. AN APPLE IS A KIND OF PIECE OF EDEN! Can you read? . Seriously, I don't often do this since it breaks the rules but you're just an idiot right now.

lol

Just Krispy
03-04-2012, 03:42 PM
Trying to get the Impress Warren Vidic Ach is giving me high blood pressure...

Gil_217
03-04-2012, 03:43 PM
That doesn't make it wrong...it's still accurate. Yes, they were looking for the vaults, but they were also looking for the Apple, or any other pieces for that matter. They knew Altair held one that showed him a map of possible locations. Vaults, POE's, it doesn't matter. They wanted it all. It even says in the MP files in AC:R they they were very interested in finding the vaults. The Apple was more or less just for Eye-Abstergo. And again, it says that they knew Altair held a POE so they needed a descendant to find it, or at least find the info it provided. It's not like they realized that the one they destroyed was the same one.

Really?? So you're basing your argument in something you found in the Assassin's Creed wiki, in which the part you bolded as the source of Assassin's Creed 1, when clearly it was never stated that in that specific game. C'mon now!

And, even if that bolded part is correct, it's only talking about the Vault, just because they don't know where some Vault is it doesn't necessarily mean they don't know about, for example, Ezio's Apple location, so I'm not quite sure why you bring that up.

LightRey
03-04-2012, 03:45 PM
Really?? So you're basing your argument in something you found in the Assassin's Creed wiki, in which the part you bolded as the source of Assassin's Creed 1, when clearly it was never stated that in that specific game. C'mon now!

And, even if that bolded part is correct, it's only talking about the Vault, just because they don't know where some Vault is it doesn't necessarily mean they don't know about, for example, Ezio's Apple location, so I'm not quite sure why you bring that up.

The wiki is right. It's all explained in detail in TLA.

jamgamerforever
03-04-2012, 03:48 PM
So, as you can see, they were trying to locate POE's and the map of the vaults even before kidnapping Clay. They had no idea Ezio held an Apple till Desmond relived it in 2012.

That all makes sense until Lucy suddenly decides, 'Hey, lets explore Ezio again.'?

Finding the map of the PoEs gives them no inclination that Ezio once held an Apple or that he visited a Vault.


I think it is interesting that he only gets the jump pad a few times -- when fleeing Abstego and during memory 7. And at his weakest points -- before the order and during The Bleeding Effect -- he doesn't have anything and has to rely on the grey blocks to get further.

I'm going to have to go through the puzzles and draw them with arrows and in 2D now, aren't I? Detailing how he gets through each puzzle and how that relates to the location in the story. :|


True. reading through it it seems a lot more coherent. Although... "You are they. You possess the potential for understanding." and then she goes on about the PoEs- Could that have something to do with the mysterious they in "They must all suffered as we suffered."?

I just assumed they were talking about humans. They possess the potential to unlock the 6th sense but don't. They must suffer because of the war they started. Maybe there is more to it. The more we talk the more I think I'm going to have to go over the entire story again.


I wondered if it's because he isn't viewing genetic memory? Maybe the genetic memory of one's own life is only added to the gametes and the Animus doesn't use those to access memories? And instead uses information from his brain to make those puzzles. I find it a bit weird that the core of the Animus, where there are supposedly no simulations seems so... simulated.

Huh. I have never thought deeper into how the Animus works than it "reads DNA". Surely if you could use gametes, then the Templars would just take samples, and then dispose of the subject. It must actually require their brain to be intact. An image of a brain does appear on the Animus at the very beginning of AC1.

Indeed. Everything is made up of blocks and so very simulated. An oxymoron if ever I saw one. What would be in the core of an Animus? I like to think of the lasers as firewalls, and they appear as obstacles whenever the story permits too. I wonder if the presence of lasers and/or those blue/red blocks plays a significant role. Definitely going to have to make that 2D diagram.


It's mentioned in his database entry but IIRC that glitched and didn't show up when the game first came out. Perhaps it was Juno but how did she get access to his memories to put those in? Or maybe they are clues he left to himself, something he'll need later on.

I stopped reading the database entries after AC2 :( Perhaps I should go and read them then...


And the hookblade is wonderful. Running through Constantinople was so wonderfully easy, especially compared to my current attempts to get anything done in Venice :|

I spent a long time in Venice jumping around the poles above the water or in the water. There was that one last timed Assassin tomb too that took me forever.


She covered for Clay as well and destroyed the evidence of him seeing her conversation with Vidic. Seems like she tried to minimize the damage done to them as long as it didn't hurt Templar plans. (Not that makes her betrayal any better, hmph :|)

Incidentally, at the end of The Truth Clay realizes he's trapped and it takes a few seconds for the door to memory 7 to appear. Does anyone have an idea what the door could symbolize? It can't be the suicide yet since we find Lucy's letter in the next memory.

I'm getting mixed signals from Lucy (obviously). Why would she cover up all the evidence when she effectively allows Clay to die in the Animus anyway. Did it just make her feel better?

Perhaps that door represents sacrificing himself to help Desmond, a door he had previously closed off in his mind, he wouldn't accept that solution. After all, isn't this the moment he decides he will help Desmond? So the door is either him 'resigning himself to his fate' or is literally a door Juno opened for him, as Juno talks to him straight afterwards.


The Altair/Ezio Debate

Let me throw in my 2 cents here. Everything I can think of.

They had 16 go through numerous ancestors, though Vidic took a personal interest to Ezio Auditore, we'll assume this was just his gut feeling. Either Clay didn't find the Apple, or he deliberately fought against finding it. He is quite smart. He could make it appear as if Ezio never had it I think. However, they do see Ezio talking about Altair (either in 2 or in Revelations)

This leads them to get Desmond, who is an ancestor to both. Vidic has them follow up on Altair to find the map, as the Templars believe that this map will lead them to an Apple. Once they discover the map, they don't just dispose of Desmond. They have him follow another lead. Since they were lead to believe it is hard to synchronise with Ezio's memories (due to Clay) they have him escape to the Assassins, where he will feel more at ease.

They have nothing to lose, so they have Desmond go through Ezio's entire life, just to be sure they didn't miss anything. And they did. And then they find the 6th Apple, and all the stuff happens.

This, I believe, satisfies both of your theories?

Gil_217
03-04-2012, 03:52 PM
The wiki is right. It's all explained in detail in TLA.

Man, I have to give it up to you, arguing with you is absolutely horrendous and tiresome, my goodness I don't even know why I'm still doing it.

It's quite funny that you actually use suppositions to sometimes validate your points, when you are the one criticizing people for using those same suppositions and possible theories, and when someone other than you does that you just disregard it saying that those are only theories and suppositions that we can't use to valid our points, because Ubisoft never mentioned or hinted at them.

Thank God (or TWCB) that we don't know each other in person.

zerocooll21
03-04-2012, 03:55 PM
Really?? So you're basing your argument in something you found in the Assassin's Creed wiki, in which the part you bolded as the source of Assassin's Creed 1, when clearly it was never stated that in that specific game. C'mon now!


The AC wiki is constantly updated.

LightRey
03-04-2012, 03:59 PM
Man, I have to give it up to you, arguing with you is absolutely horrendous and tiresome, my goodness I don't even know why I'm still doing it.

It's quite funny that you actually use suppositions to sometimes validate your points, when you are the one criticizing people for using those same suppositions and possible theories, and when someone other than you does that you just disregard it saying that those are only theories and suppositions that we can't use to valid our points, because Ubisoft never mentioned or hinted at them.

Thank God (or TWCB) that we don't know each other in person.

Dude, we know there are PoE's that have been locked away, since Juno literally told us that. We also know that the Templars are looking for apples of Eden and that they knew Altaïr would lead them to the locations of many PoE's. Finally, what GLHS quoted from the wiki is completely confirmed by TLA. Is it that hard for you to add 2 and 2 together? Let me tell you the answer, it's 4.

You're using an obvious distraction method to avoid the attention from the arguments that blow your theory (which already contradicts the way the story actually went, so wth) to pieces, which you haven't responded to.

Gil_217
03-04-2012, 03:59 PM
The AC wiki is constantly updated.

It still has the Assassin's Creed 1 as the source for the bolded part.

Vairn
03-04-2012, 04:00 PM
Hey, I'm new here! This'll be my first post here, guided here by a friend of mine who use to come here all the time. I'm sorry if I haven't read allot of the other comments, but I wanted to know if anyone felt like the revelation about Lucy shown in the Lost Archive were written in as a way to explain what Juno did to her.

Gil_217
03-04-2012, 04:02 PM
Dude, we know there are PoE's that have been locked away, since Juno literally told us that. We also know that the Templars are looking for apples of Eden and that they knew Altaïr would lead them to the locations of many PoE's. Finally, what GLHS quoted from the wiki is completely confirmed by TLA. Is it that hard for you to add 2 and 2 together? Let me tell you the answer, it's 4.

You're using an obvious distraction method to avoid the attention from the arguments that blow your theory (which already contradicts the way the story actually went, so wth) to pieces, which you haven't responded to.

Then I'm sorry, because if Juno said that in the first part of your post, you are indeed correct, like I said in a previous post of mine, but please, show me where she said that because I truly don't remember.

zerocooll21
03-04-2012, 04:04 PM
It still has the Assassin's Creed 1 as the source for the bolded part.

lol b/c they are talking about events in AC1 :p

jamgamerforever
03-04-2012, 04:04 PM
Hey, I'm new here! This'll be my first post here, guided here by a friend of mine who use to come here all the time. I'm sorry if I haven't read allot of the other comments, but I wanted to know if anyone felt like the revelation about Lucy shown in the Lost Archive were written in as a way to explain what Juno did to her.

Hey, welcome! I lurked here for a while and just joined too!

It seems that Juno knew she was a traitor, and presumed that Lucy would take the Apple to Vidic. AC3 will be interesting, because I'll be looking at every scene, "what would have happened if Lucy was alive?"

How did you like The Lost Archive?

LightRey
03-04-2012, 04:04 PM
It still has the Assassin's Creed 1 as the source for the bolded part.

Wikis don't have text specific sources. The sources are listed per page and it came from Clay's page, which has all of the games, TLA and the encyclopedia listed as sources.

Gil_217
03-04-2012, 04:08 PM
So, as you can see, they were trying to locate POE's and the map of the vaults even before kidnapping Clay. They had no idea Ezio held an Apple till Desmond relived it in 2012. At the very most, they knew it was possible, and knew that Altair also had one that showed the locations of the vaults. If they knew Ezio had an Apple, they would've also known he had knowledge of where the vaults were, rendering Desmond useless


Explain me this darling: 7:46 - 7:55



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Roo6tH_wbXc

LightRey
03-04-2012, 04:09 PM
Then I'm sorry, because if Juno said that in the first part of your post, you are indeed correct, like I said in a previous post of mine, but please, show me where she said that because I truly don't remember.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&amp;v=Hc67qdROmbA
At about 1:10.

Vairn
03-04-2012, 04:09 PM
Our post counts show it to! Maybe one day I'll reach one hundred. Oh, but I didn't buy the DLC though. I wanted to, but I wasn't sure it was worth it, so I just watched Esco play it on youtube! It sounds like you could make something out of that and that makes me think of Desmond when he finds out about it. I feel sorry for him though. But it feels like they just threw it at us, lol. Desmond was doing pretty well in AC1, and if S16 knew they were going to do that to him, he would've left him a warning since only Desmond could interact with the puzzles he left behind.

Gil_217
03-04-2012, 04:12 PM
lol b/c they are talking about events in AC1 :p

Oh God, I said that because the bolded part was never mentioned or even hinted in Assassin's Creed 1, so the source is incorrect.

jamgamerforever
03-04-2012, 04:13 PM
Our post counts show it to! Maybe one day I'll reach one hundred. Oh, but I didn't buy the DLC though. I wanted to, but I wasn't sure it was worth it, so I just watched Esco play it on youtube! It sounds like you could make something out of that and that makes me think of Desmond when he finds out about it. I feel sorry for him though. But it feels like they just threw it at us, lol. Desmond was doing pretty well in AC1, and if S16 knew they were going to do that to him, he would've left him a warning since only Desmond could interact with the puzzles he left behind.

Yeah, you would think that 16 would leave a message for Desmond saying Lucy was a traitor, ha ha. I think that Juno told him not to so that AC1, 2 and Brotherhood could happen. So far, Those Who Came Before seem to have a pretty good plan in place. They know what is going to happen and how to change it to their favor. Wondering what will go wrong...

Considering how devastated Desmond was at the beginning of Revelations over Lucy, it's going to be very sad when he finds out.

LightRey
03-04-2012, 04:16 PM
Oh God, I said that because the bolded part was never mentioned or even hinted in Assassin's Creed 1, so the source is incorrect.

I don't get where you keep getting that source from. It's a quote of the wiki page for Clay, which as I said refers to all the games, TLA and the Encyclopedia as sources. It is correctly sourced.

Vairn
03-04-2012, 04:18 PM
That's why it feels tacked on. Like someone wrote it in later. Lol, makes you wonder how a race that can foresee the future was destroyed in the first place.

Gil_217
03-04-2012, 04:20 PM
I don't get where you keep getting that source from. It's a quote of the wiki page for Clay, which as I said refers to all the games, TLA and the Encyclopedia as sources. It is correctly sourced.

At least we can agree on something, the Templars were aware of Ezio's Apple before Desmond was kidnapped as it can be seen in the video I posted.

Edit: Don't know about you, but for me the source that appears is Assassin's Creed the game, not Assassin's Creed the entire series. What's the point of having as a source Assassins Creed as the entire series, when they can identify the games where something is taken from.

LightRey
03-04-2012, 04:20 PM
That's why it feels tacked on. Like someone wrote it in later. Lol, makes you wonder how a race that can foresee the future was destroyed in the first place.

They can't so much see it as use calculations to predict if (if I'm interpreting what Jupiter said correctly). They didn't see it coming because they were too preoccupied with the war (according to Minerva).


At least we can agree on something, the Templars were aware of Ezio's Apple before Desmond was kidnapped as it can be seen in the video I posted.
True.

Gil_217
03-04-2012, 04:28 PM
And thanks for the video where Juno was talking to Desmond, I possibly don't remember that because the dialog was presented during gameplay, even though what she's says regarding what we were talking about is not very precise and clear, but I think it is a possibility.

Vairn
03-04-2012, 04:29 PM
They can't so much see it as use calculations to predict if (if I'm interpreting what Jupiter said correctly). They didn't see it coming because they were too preoccupied with the war (according to Minerva).


True.

You're interpreting it well, and just as Juno implied. I knew. It's the difference between showing and doing, and if they showed me some times that they were wrong in their predictions then I'd be able to swallow that truth easily. From what I've seen they've gotten everything right though, even when Ezio glimpsed the apple and knew where Cesare was. If they saw it enough to build the temples, I'm not sure why they didn't just foresee which option was the best.

Oh! It's a pleasure to meet you though. Thanks for replying.

POP1Fan
03-04-2012, 04:41 PM
If i am not mistaken, I remember that there was mentioned in AC1or somewhere else that the map at the end of AC1 is a map showing the POE's in the present, not in Altair's time.This would make it important for the Templars.And judging on how all the messages held by the Apple are for Desmond, I guess that this was for him too.

LightRey
03-04-2012, 04:45 PM
You're interpreting it well, and just as Juno implied. I knew. It's the difference between showing and doing, and if they showed me some times that they were wrong in their predictions then I'd be able to swallow that truth easily. From what I've seen they've gotten everything right though, even when Ezio glimpsed the apple and knew where Cesare was. If they saw it enough to build the temples, I'm not sure why they didn't just foresee which option was the best.

Oh! It's a pleasure to meet you though. Thanks for replying.

A pleasure to meet you too. I think there's something at play that prevents them from looking any further ("The cross darkens the horizon").


And thanks for the video where Juno was talking to Desmond, I possibly don't remember that because the dialog was presented during gameplay, even though what she's says regarding what we were talking about is not very precise and clear, but I think it is a possibility.

True, but all in all there don't even have to be any more apples. The Templars just have to think/suspect there are. We also really don't know if the Templars know more about the amount of apples than we do. After all, almost all our information about them comes from S16, who likely got it from his genetic memories and/or Abstergo files and according to his info the last ones to hold most of the apples were Templars.


If i am not mistaken, I remember that there was mentioned in AC1or somewhere else that the map at the end of AC1 is a map showing the POE's in the present, not in Altair's time.This would make it important for the Templars.And judging on how all the messages held by the Apple are for Desmond, I guess that this was for him too.

Well I can't remember it being mentioned, but I always found it very suspicious that the map showed the borders of modern countries.

GLHS
03-04-2012, 04:46 PM
Well whatever. It's pretty obviously stated in the games and every other source that they took Desmond to find out more about Altair and his POE, along with the vault locations. And they "took" Clay and found out about Ezio and Clay couldn't show all of it to them, so they grabbed Dez. Idk what the argument is about since it's plainly stated in the games and DLC, so obviously somebody needs to replay them. This is the second time I've had arguments about stupid things I've been right about the entire time just from general knowledge of playing the games and reading the wiki, and it'll be the last time.

It's pretty obvious that there's a lot of uneducated people posting stupid things that they haven't bothered to fully research, and arguing their point till they're literally blue in the face. It's not my fault you can't correctly interpret what's presented right in front of you in the games. I'm not a godd@amn teacher and don't have time to hold everybody's hand while they play the games while making sure they learn everything. The story of the games is pointless for you to play through if you're not going invest the time into learning it and are just gonna run around like an idiot not caring and stabbing people. There's a lot of people that play it just for that. There's other people that play it for that and also the story. If you're not one of those people, you have no business taking part in discussions about the story unless you become one.

Gil_217
03-04-2012, 04:57 PM
Well whatever. It's pretty obviously stated in the games and every other source that they took Desmond to find out more about Altair and his POE, along with the vault locations. And they "took" Clay and found out about Ezio and Clay couldn't show all of it to them, so they grabbed Dez. Idk what the argument is about since it's plainly stated in the games and DLC, so obviously somebody needs to replay them. This is the second time I've had arguments about stupid things I've been right about the entire time just from general knowledge of playing the games and reading the wiki, and it'll be the last time.

It's pretty obvious that there's a lot of uneducated people posting stupid things that they haven't bothered to fully research, and arguing their point till they're literally blue in the face. It's not my fault you can't correctly interpret what's presented right in front of you in the games. I'm not a godd@amn teacher and don't have time to hold everybody's hand while they play the games while making sure they learn everything. The story of the games is pointless for you to play through if you're not going invest the time into learning it and are just gonna run around like an idiot not caring and stabbing people. There's a lot of people that play it just for that. There's other people that play it for that and also the story. If you're not one of those people, you have no business taking part in discussions about the story unless you become one.

Quite funny you say that since you were proved wrong about the Templars not being aware of Ezio's Apple before they kidnapped Desmond, when in fact they were.

I'm not trying to provoke you, I'm just saying.

jamgamerforever
03-04-2012, 04:57 PM
Well whatever. It's pretty obviously stated in the games and every other source that they took Desmond to find out more about Altair and his POE, along with the vault locations. And they "took" Clay and found out about Ezio and Clay couldn't show all of it to them, so they grabbed Dez. Idk what the argument is about since it's plainly stated in the games and DLC, so obviously somebody needs to replay them. This is the second time I've had arguments about stupid things I've been right about the entire time just from general knowledge of playing the games and reading the wiki, and it'll be the last time.

It's pretty obvious that there's a lot of uneducated people posting stupid things that they haven't bothered to fully research, and arguing their point till they're literally blue in the face. It's not my fault you can't correctly interpret what's presented right in front of you in the games. I'm not a godd@amn teacher and don't have time to hold everybody's hand while they play the games while making sure they learn everything. The story of the games is pointless for you to play through if you're not going invest the time into learning it and are just gonna run around like an idiot not caring and stabbing people. There's a lot of people that play it just for that. There's other people that play it for that and also the story. If you're not one of those people, you have no business taking part in discussions about the story unless you become one.

To be fair, it isn't overtly obvious. It took me a little bit of thinking to sort it out in my head. That's what happens with a series where it keeps layering upon itself though. Has Assassin's Creed become the proverbial Lost of video games?

The13Doctors
03-04-2012, 04:58 PM
Referring to the voices heard, here's what they said.

"I look from my enemies from friends may God protect"
-Italian

"Nothing so much as a secret Peer"
-French

An interesting point about the french is that I followed up on the word Peer, I came across this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peerage_of_France

Look at the timing.

Coincidence?



Odd that they would continue to hint at the French Revolution when we know they're going for the American Revolution. Though I guess that was leaked, so maybe this is all just a red herring?


I doubt it'd be for nothing, especially in First Person storytelling. I imagine that it may be hints as for maybe a possible future game for Conner? While the Senior Team is taking it's time and currently working on finishing this one, there are 7 Studios whose work got cleared up, could they be working on the next Title?

Assassin's Creed Peerage. I can actually see that name being used.

jamgamerforever
03-04-2012, 05:03 PM
I doubt it'd be for nothing, especially in First Person storytelling. I imagine that it may be hints as for maybe a possible future game for Conner? While the Senior Team is taking it's time and currently working on finishing this one, there are 7 Studios whose work got cleared up, could they be working on the next Title?

Assassin's Creed Peerage. I can actually see that name being used.

You know, they could be doing just that. I never took into account the 6/7 studios that are now doing nothing. It'll be fun to see if you predicted not the next title, but the one after that!

GLHS
03-04-2012, 05:14 PM
To be fair, it isn't overtly obvious. It took me a little bit of thinking to sort it out in my head. That's what happens with a series where it keeps layering upon itself though. Has Assassin's Creed become the proverbial Lost of video games?

Well, yeah, nobody's gonna understand everything on their first playthrough. And yes, it does take a good sit down to really get everything straight. This story is massive with a lot of detail, and would confuse anybody not already heavily invested in it from at least AC2. It's not an easy story to understand by many means. But through a few sessions with the games and a bit of research, things come together and make sense. Pretty much, the only questions that should still be left are questions that they haven't addressed yet, and will get to by the end of the series. But seriously, as an example,we've still got people on here asking about whether Altair's apple and Ezio's apple are the same one. A little bit of reading can do a world of good. It isn't that difficult.

Subject-22
03-04-2012, 05:19 PM
is it worth getting? or should i save my points for other stuff or maybe ac3 dlc

The13Doctors
03-04-2012, 05:19 PM
You know, they could be doing just that. I never took into account the 6/7 studios that are now doing nothing. It'll be fun to see if you predicted not the next title, but the one after that!

That would be awesome, as a matter of fact, I will follow up on this, I'm going to research the Peerage and related hints in series.

jamgamerforever
03-04-2012, 05:20 PM
Well, yeah, nobody's gonna understand everything on their first playthrough. And yes, it does take a good sit down to really get everything straight. This story is massive with a lot of detail, and would confuse anybody not already heavily invested in it from at least AC2. It's not an easy story to understand by many means. But through a few sessions with the games and a bit of research, things come together and make sense. Pretty much, the only questions that should still be left are questions that they haven't addressed yet, and will get to by the end of the series. But seriously, as an example,we've still got people on here asking about whether Altair's apple and Ezio's apple are the same one. A little bit of reading can do a world of good. It isn't that difficult.

Well, yeah, that's a silly question. As a person who scours the AC Wiki, I can understand your point of view. Most questions addressed can be easily answered there. I guess I feel more sympathy for people as 'The Lost Archive' has just been released. I'm still replaying that and trying to sort out all the symbolic stuff and the puzzles to see if I can peer into AC3 and see 16's future, but that is speculation obviously.

After all the games are done, it'll be fun to draw spider diagrams of the Apples' journeys, and such. Then people can just look at them and go, 'ah, yeah.'

zerocooll21
03-04-2012, 05:23 PM
is it worth getting? or should i save my points for other stuff or maybe ac3 dlc

If you liked the Desmond Journey in ACR then yes. Its deff visually stunning.

The13Doctors
03-04-2012, 05:28 PM
is it worth getting? or should i save my points for other stuff or maybe ac3 dlc

It's really worth it if you are interested in the story and the experience is great to actually feel everything just like Clay did, although they do have all the videos online which can catch you up on the story just as well, the experience isn't the same of course, actually playing through the game, going through the symbolism, it's amazing.

Apirka
03-04-2012, 05:45 PM
That would be awesome, as a matter of fact, I will follow up on this, I'm going to research the Peerage and related hints in series.

Don't bother -- I looked it up and the correct translation is "Nothing weighs on us so heavily as a secret.". (http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Jean_de_La_Fontaine)

I'll reply to other stuff later.

The13Doctors
03-04-2012, 05:47 PM
Don't bother -- I looked it up and the correct translation is "Nothing weighs on us so heavily as a secret.". (http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Jean_de_La_Fontaine)

I'll reply to other stuff later.

It wouldn't hurt to check it out, considering it's all related. I translated the exact words used in the DLC.



EDIT; Oh you're right. Eh, still wouldn't hurt to check it out.

Apirka
03-04-2012, 06:22 PM
I'm going to have to go through the puzzles and draw them with arrows and in 2D now, aren't I? Detailing how he gets through each puzzle and how that relates to the location in the story. :|

D: Please don't draw glyphs on your walls when finished. (It's probably be an amazing resource, though...)


I just assumed they were talking about humans. They possess the potential to unlock the 6th sense but don't. They must suffer because of the war they started. Maybe there is more to it. The more we talk the more I think I'm going to have to go over the entire story again.


There's something so random about that line. One moment she reminds Clay that he needs to help Desmond, the next she says they must suffer. It's odd.


Huh. I have never thought deeper into how the Animus works than it "reads DNA". Surely if you could use gametes, then the Templars would just take samples, and then dispose of the subject. It must actually require their brain to be intact. An image of a brain does appear on the Animus at the very beginning of AC1.

Indeed. Everything is made up of blocks and so very simulated. An oxymoron if ever I saw one. What would be in the core of an Animus? I like to think of the lasers as firewalls, and they appear as obstacles whenever the story permits too. I wonder if the presence of lasers and/or those blue/red blocks plays a significant role. Definitely going to have to make that 2D diagram.

Especially since Desmond says it simulates no environments and even just the Abstergo lab in his last memory proves that wrong. And then there's multiple times in TLA where it definitely simulates an environment (hell, that's the first thing we see -- Animus Island). I was thinking, if there's no genetic memory to use for simulation but only the brain (since both are apparently needed, you're right there), that the Animus can't make "proper", normal simulations. I'm not quite sure why though, but Animus science is weird and makes no sense :|


I stopped reading the database entries after AC2 :( Perhaps I should go and read them then...

I'd read the ones about the characters at least -- Ezio's also mentions that the child he had that Clay came from must have been born quite a while before Flavia. Maybe that helps with the discussion regarding Ezio's apple?


I spent a long time in Venice jumping around the poles above the water or in the water. There was that one last timed Assassin tomb too that took me forever.

Assassin's tombs have been all right so far (though I haven't been to the timed one) since usually there aren't many distances to misjudge.


I'm getting mixed signals from Lucy (obviously). Why would she cover up all the evidence when she effectively allows Clay to die in the Animus anyway. Did it just make her feel better?

Apparently. She said she promised to keep him safe and cites that as her reason for destroying the evidence, but at the same time won't let him leave. Of course, she goes on about how Abstergo cares more about people than William does while she helps experiment on him and watches him go insane. Yeah, Abstergo totally cares, Lucy :|


Perhaps that door represents sacrificing himself to help Desmond, a door he had previously closed off in his mind, he wouldn't accept that solution. After all, isn't this the moment he decides he will help Desmond? So the door is either him 'resigning himself to his fate' or is literally a door Juno opened for him, as Juno talks to him straight afterwards.

I'm not sure how Juno opening one would work, especially since he does indeed not escape, simply kill himself (unless there's something we don't know) so I think your first explanation is more likely. Good idea c:


It wouldn't hurt to check it out, considering it's all related. I translated the exact words used in the DLC.



EDIT; Oh you're right. Eh, still wouldn't hurt to check it out.

Perhaps. I'm not an expert on French history, after all.

jamgamerforever
03-04-2012, 06:58 PM
D: Please don't draw glyphs on your walls when finished. (It's probably be an amazing resource, though...)

I'm just about to turn my tv on and start making it now, and I can't promise anything. I'll just try to use a pen/pencil and not my own blood.


There's something so random about that line. One moment she reminds Clay that he needs to help Desmond, the next she says they must suffer. It's odd.

Perhaps Clay helping Desmond will cause 'they' to suffer. I expect a big revelation about TWCB in AC3, as the Eye-Abstergo situation is too simple IMO.


Especially since Desmond says it simulates no environments and even just the Abstergo lab in his last memory proves that wrong. And then there's multiple times in TLA where it definitely simulates an environment (hell, that's the first thing we see -- Animus Island). I was thinking, if there's no genetic memory to use for simulation but only the brain (since both are apparently needed, you're right there), that the Animus can't make "proper", normal simulations. I'm not quite sure why though, but Animus science is weird and makes no sense :|

To further complicate things, Altair uses the discs to record his own memories. And yet they play normally. I know Ezio is experiencing them, but it's not going back through DNA, Altair deliberately recorded his own memories. I guess he wasn't insane though... was Desmond insane too? At the beginning of ACR, Desmond says "I'm fine." to which 16 replies, "So was I."

Is that our explanation to the lack of insanity in 'The Lost Archive'? Can you yourself not tell you're going insane?


I'd read the ones about the characters at least -- Ezio's also mentions that the child he had that Clay came from must have been born quite a while before Flavia. Maybe that helps with the discussion regarding Ezio's apple?

Actually, that's the best theory I've heard yet. It was hinted in the wiki but not so explicitly stated. That would explain why Vidic and co. never saw the Apple. You genius, you.


IApparently. She said she promised to keep him safe and cites that as her reason for destroying the evidence, but at the same time won't let him leave. Of course, she goes on about how Abstergo cares more about people than William does while she helps experiment on him and watches him go insane. Yeah, Abstergo totally cares, Lucy :|

It's disturbing that after playing this I felt good about stabbing Lucy in Brotherhood. I felt glee knowing I'd avenged Clay Kaczmarek. What am I becoming? :D


II'm not sure how Juno opening one would work, especially since he does indeed not escape, simply kill himself (unless there's something we don't know) so I think your first explanation is more likely. Good idea c:

Yeah, I preferred the first one due to how much it speaks of Clay as a character. It's a huge moment for him. I just thought I'd throw the other one out there so you could play with it. I don't like to discount anything.

Apirka
03-04-2012, 07:32 PM
I'm just about to turn my tv on and start making it now, and I can't promise anything. I'll just try to use a pen/pencil and not my own blood.

Uh... Remember the mission?



Perhaps Clay helping Desmond will cause 'they' to suffer. I expect a big revelation about TWCB in AC3, as the Eye-Abstergo situation is too simple IMO.

At this point I'd be disappointed if there weren't. Revelations end wasn't mind screwy enough -- we need another AC" or ACB. (Though ACR does have TLA.)


To further complicate things, Altair uses the discs to record his own memories. And yet they play normally. I know Ezio is experiencing them, but it's not going back through DNA, Altair deliberately recorded his own memories. I guess he wasn't insane though... was Desmond insane too? At the beginning of ACR, Desmond says "I'm fine." to which 16 replies, "So was I."

Is that our explanation to the lack of insanity in 'The Lost Archive'? Can you yourself not tell you're going insane?

One of my history teachers once said that a person who knows they're insane isn't insane. ...Which is kind of rubbish, but hey. Maybe it's the Animus that keeps them insane? They put Desmond in there to keep his mind stable, didn't they? When AI!Clay was created it might have had a similar effect -- and ACB was either because he wasn't finished or because he tried to say too much with too little time and ended up telling us nothing.


Actually, that's the best theory I've heard yet. It was hinted in the wiki but not so explicitly stated. That would explain why Vidic and co. never saw the Apple. You genius, you.

:D Read the database! It's the answer to everything! I just wish I could remember all the nice history and architecture stuff it tells me. (That reminds me, I had wanted to go through Venice and see if I can find any of Palladio's villas.)


It's disturbing that after playing this I felt good about stabbing Lucy in Brotherhood. I felt glee knowing I'd avenged Clay Kaczmarek. What am I becoming? :D

Whatever it is, it's happening to me too. She was my favourite character and I was genuinely upset watching AC1 and 2 knowing she'd get stabbed, but now? I don't think anything can redeem her for me at this point, especially after that second letter.


Yeah, I preferred the first one due to how much it speaks of Clay as a character. It's a huge moment for him. I just thought I'd throw the other one out there so you could play with it. I don't like to discount anything.

I actually love most of the symbolism because of the characterization it offers -- like the prison like doors when he talks with his Dad about the engineering programme he got into. It's all rather lovely; I really don't understand the people who say there's no emotion in this. Sure if you dislike the gameplay I can understand that you'd prefer the normal AC one or even just cutscenes, but saying this is emotionless?

liamisic911
03-04-2012, 08:44 PM
Don't know if this has already been said but is very relevant. The clue left which says (lillith) it's a biblical reference to Adams first wife. Completely went over my head at first.

Crash911

Gil_217
03-04-2012, 09:04 PM
:D Read the database! It's the answer to everything! I just wish I could remember all the nice history and architecture stuff it tells me. (That reminds me, I had wanted to go through Venice and see if I can find any of Palladio's villas.)

I read the entire database of Ezio in Revelations and I never saw that, maybe you wanted to say Clay's database entry, but of course the woman that Ezio impregnated and produced the offspring that later reached Clay was before the events of Revelations, I think in Clay's database he even says way before Ezio's time in Revelations, it was an illegitimate son after all, of course.

I wonder who was that woman! It would be cool if the devs revealed that information in one of those interviews.

Apirka
03-04-2012, 09:14 PM
Really? I'm quite sure he said something about his time with Ezio going darer much sooner than Desmond's in Ezio's entry. That one glitched on me in my last playthrough though, so I'm going by what I remember from my first one in November. I'm pretty sure it was said somewhere in the database, though.

Maybe the woman was just one of his many conquests? We know at least that despite his ancestry Clay wasn't born into the order.

Gil_217
03-04-2012, 09:17 PM
Really? I'm quite sure he said something about his time with Ezio going darer much sooner than Desmond's in Ezio's entry. That one glitched on me in my last playthrough though, so I'm going by what I remember from my first one in November. I'm pretty sure it was said somewhere in the database, though.

Maybe the woman was just one of his many conquests? We know at least that despite his ancestry Clay wasn't born into the order.

Yeah man, but I'm pretty sure that information is from Clay's database entry, but who cares, the bottom line is it's there.

Well, I guess Ezio "visited" Rosa so many times between 1481-1488 that some offspring would had to be made. LOL. It's still a possibility though.

twenty_glyphs
03-04-2012, 09:21 PM
I've mentioned before that there's a possibility the map that Altaïr saw is a diversion to keep the modern-day Assassins occupied while Abstergo searches for Ezio's Apple. Lucy passed on the information from the map to the Assassins, and they're using that info to try to track them down themselves. If Lucy was a traitor, her revealing those locations is certainly suspicious. Perhaps Abstergo is only revealing that information to keep the Assassins preoccupied with many separate searches. There's definitely something special about Ezio's Apple because Minerva altered it somehow in the Vault. Maybe the Templars suspected this once they found out about the Vault and theorized that Ezio had taken the Apple inside, making it special. Maybe the Templars don't need just any Apple, but specifically need Ezio's Apple for their plan. But it seems that Apple is also very important for the Assassins' cause as well.

Gil_217
03-04-2012, 09:27 PM
I've mentioned before that there's a possibility the map that Altaïr saw is a diversion to keep the modern-day Assassins occupied while Abstergo searches for Ezio's Apple. Lucy passed on the information from the map to the Assassins, and they're using that info to try to track them down themselves. If Lucy was a traitor, her revealing those locations is certainly suspicious. Perhaps Abstergo is only revealing that information to keep the Assassins preoccupied with many separate searches. There's definitely something special about Ezio's Apple because Minerva altered it somehow in the Vault. Maybe the Templars suspected this once they found out about the Vault and theorized that Ezio had taken the Apple inside, making it special. Maybe the Templars don't need just any Apple, but specifically need Ezio's Apple for their plan. But it seems that Apple is also very important for the Assassins' cause as well.

Yeah, I too thought about that.

But I don't remember Lucy revealing those locations to the Assassin's.

jamgamerforever
03-04-2012, 09:56 PM
Yeah, I too thought about that.

But I don't remember Lucy revealing those locations to the Assassin's.

After escaping Abstergo in AC2, Shaun mentions that he's having a few teams track them down. I think it was even mentioned again in Brotherhood, though I may be mistaken. I seem to remember it being just before Lucy breaks down a little bit.


Uh... Remember the mission?

I really like you. :)


At this point I'd be disappointed if there weren't. Revelations end wasn't mind screwy enough -- we need another AC" or ACB. (Though ACR does have TLA.)

Yeah, it wouldn't be AC without leaving us completely confused! I'm torn, I want things answered, but perhaps not everything. I hope they leave parts of TWCB a mystery, just to make them seem alien to us.


One of my history teachers once said that a person who knows they're insane isn't insane. ...Which is kind of rubbish, but hey. Maybe it's the Animus that keeps them insane? They put Desmond in there to keep his mind stable, didn't they? When AI!Clay was created it might have had a similar effect -- and ACB was either because he wasn't finished or because he tried to say too much with too little time and ended up telling us nothing.

Hmmm... the Animus keeping them sane? They are experiencing the Bleeding Effect so much out of the Animus that putting them in slows the process? Interesting theory. And quite a good one in my opinion.


Read the database! It's the answer to everything! I just wish I could remember all the nice history and architecture stuff it tells me. (That reminds me, I had wanted to go through Venice and see if I can find any of Palladio's villas.)

I enjoyed all the mini-history lessons on all the historical buildings in AC2. In hindsight, I don't know quite why I stopped reading them.


Whatever it is, it's happening to me too. She was my favourite character and I was genuinely upset watching AC1 and 2 knowing she'd get stabbed, but now? I don't think anything can redeem her for me at this point, especially after that second letter.

I'm a little worried we're being possessed by Clay here...


I actually love most of the symbolism because of the characterization it offers -- like the prison like doors when he talks with his Dad about the engineering programme he got into. It's all rather lovely; I really don't understand the people who say there's no emotion in this. Sure if you dislike the gameplay I can understand that you'd prefer the normal AC one or even just cutscenes, but saying this is emotionless?

If you can't see the emotion in this then you're obviously either heartless or deliberately avoiding it. Revelations in general had quite a sad mood due to Altair and Ezio's increasing age. This DLC has just enforced this.

I have gone through the first memory twice, and tried to look at everything. My list is below. It may take me a few days to go through all 7 and then another to decipher it all though!

jamgamerforever
03-04-2012, 10:25 PM
(I'm going to add my theories later as it's easier for you and anyone else to view them like this and then see my comments - I know much of this we can gleam from watching or playing the DLC, but it may be easier just to read what happens - a different viewpoint perhaps - if you don't feel you need these just tell me before I post all 7 ;) - if you do feel free to save them to a word document for easy use, as they'll be on different pages here)

My method is play the memory twice. Then play a video, just listening to it, to get those specific sounds.


Accessing Animus archives. Fragmented memory located: Clay Kaczmarek. Date: October 10, 2012

Memory 1: The End is Only the Beginning

(Laughter) We appear on a daytime version of Animus Island, and are able to just walk into the gate. We can look into the gate and see color, but once inside all color is drained. If you look behind where the gate was there are now two narrow windows, each ending at different lengths.

William: "So we're in agreement. Reach your goal, then get out of there."

Step down to the water streams. There are gaps at the side. The color returns as soon as you leave the water. (I've tried and it's only possible to have color and be in the water if you glitch yourself where you're half on the path and half on the water.)

Priest: "The Lord is my shepherd, I lack nothing. He makes me lie down in green pastures, he leads me besides quiet waters, he refreshes my soul. He guides me along the right paths for his name's sake. Even though I walk through the darkest valley, I will fear no evil, for you are with me; your rod and your staff, they comfort me. You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies. You anoint my head with oil; my cup overflows."

Around the grave is VERY fake looking grass (more like green mats/carpet). 16 empty chairs surround the empty grave. Newspaper detailing "Man found in Tiber River. Suspected suicide." found on closest left chair. There's a picture of Clay, 2 shrubs, 1 reef and the gravestone in front of the grave: August 8, 2012. Behind the grave is a door-like shape with a slight alcove then a solid wall with bars over it.

Jump down the grave. Take damage. Color fades and screen goes fuzzy. Grave is closed above you. As you walk through the narrow cavern (with broken pave stones, and the occasional gap in the roof letting bright light in).

Clay: "And, then, we all got up and marked our favorite jobs on the board. I'm going to be an astronaut, dad."
Harold: "Did you hear your son? The kid wants to be a spaceman."

Walk up the stairs, towards the light. Color returns about 2/3 the way up. Walk through bright light. Can hear the beeeeeeep of someone's heart that has stopped, and then it starts (beep, beep, beep, beep) like a regular human heart.

(While the beeping is happening) William: "Clay Kaczmarek, few are offered the opportunity I now give you."

There's a ledge (almost like a view point). Jump down. Take damage. Jump down twice more, but no damage taken. First time that you have to jump over gaps. There are birds on one of the platforms that fly away when you get close.

When you get to the other side, and walk through, there is a room identical to the first actual room you see. The one with the two narrow windows that end at different places. This time you walk through in the opposite direction and there is a little room off to the side. It's empty and you have to turn around, go back through and the outside has changed.

William: "Prove yourself, novice, and you will be one of us."

Fall onto narrow ledge. The silver blocks take you up. Jumping on them too. The silver blocks fall away after you have gotten to the next physical stone platform. There is an odd platform with a little rectangle missing from it. You have to fall down again, taking damage. Silver blocks once again take you up. Throughout all this section is a strange string of musical notes.

You get to the top of the central platform you've been going around.

William: "Together, we will defend the free will of humanity from those who would steal it."

There are 6 stairs up to the ability gate. Whole room goes blue-ish (Eagle Vision?). All the silver blocks fly back up and make an odd cube-like shape. They then break apart and fall down again, and you have the ability to create blocks.

Make blocks to get to the gate.

Apirka
03-04-2012, 11:43 PM
I really like you. :)

Likewise :D (Throwing quotes at people is what I would do all the time if there were any people around me that would actually understand the references.)


Yeah, it wouldn't be AC without leaving us completely confused! I'm torn, I want things answered, but perhaps not everything. I hope they leave parts of TWCB a mystery, just to make them seem alien to us.

Same here. They just wouldn't be the same without a bit of mystery. And hey, I like MGS2, I love mind screws.


Hmmm... the Animus keeping them sane? They are experiencing the Bleeding Effect so much out of the Animus that putting them in slows the process? Interesting theory. And quite a good one in my opinion.

Thank you! And there never seems to be trouble inside the Animus that aren't glitching memories like in AC2 or synchronization problems. When Desmond walks around as Ezio he doesn't suddenly see Altair chasing after Maria, or memories of Ezio coming to the villa when he's older, while by the time of Brotherhood he seemed to be seeing the ghosts everywhere.


I enjoyed all the mini-history lessons on all the historical buildings in AC2. In hindsight, I don't know quite why I stopped reading them.


I wish I could actually remember them <.< They're really nice reads. During Revelations I even tried to read them in Clay's voice. (And in hindsight, I am dumb -- Palladio wasn't even born during the time you're in Venice. Fortunately I looked up the dates before I went looking :|)


I'm a little worried we're being possessed by Clay here...

I'll start worrying when I repaint my room with my blood. Especially when it's the red wall, that would just be silly. (I actually wanted to let him come with me during ACR. If I were Desmond I would have said yes when he asked, found him a body and then given him some blankets and a nice cup of tea. And lots of hugs.)


If you can't see the emotion in this then you're obviously either heartless or deliberately avoiding it. Revelations in general had quite a sad mood due to Altair and Ezio's increasing age. This DLC has just enforced this.

Apparently people are so blinded by their dislike for the gameplay that they just can't let themselves enjoy the emotion and symbolism :| It's a shame, there's so much in this DLC. And so much that can only be there because of the gameplay.


(I'm going to add my theories later as it's easier for you and anyone else to view them like this and then see my comments - I know much of this we can gleam from watching or playing the DLC, but it may be easier just to read what happens - a different viewpoint perhaps - if you don't feel you need these just tell me before I post all 7 ;) - if you do feel free to save them to a word document for easy use, as they'll be on different pages here).

I love you, this is wonderful and beautiful and I'll shut up before I creep people out. ...I'm definitely interested in seeing more! (It's like what I tried to do with my notes but you're a lot less lazy and far more thorough. This is really great.)


Accessing Animus archives. Fragmented memory located: Clay Kaczmarek. Date: October 10, 2012

I just checked and the loading screen for Desmond's Journey is quite different.


William: "So we're in agreement. Reach your goal, then get out of there."

I hadn't noticed before but this is an odd placement for the quote. He only introduce Clay to the order a bit later, but already gives orders here. It doesn't even fit with the end being the beginning.


Step down to the water streams. There are gaps at the side. The color returns as soon as you leave the water. (I've tried and it's only possible to have color and be in the water if you glitch yourself where you're half on the path and half on the water.)

I think there's some more moments where the colour gets drained later. I wonder if there's a connection.


Priest: "The Lord is my shepherd, I lack nothing. He makes me lie down in green pastures, he leads me besides quiet waters, he refreshes my soul. He guides me along the right paths for his name's sake. Even though I walk through the darkest valley, I will fear no evil, for you are with me; your rod and your staff, they comfort me. You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies. You anoint my head with oil; my cup overflows."

Does anyone know this prayer? I've a very limited knowledge of religion, but I've been wondering if there's more to it than just being a funeral.


Around the grave is VERY fake looking grass (more like green mats/carpet). 16 empty chairs surround the empty grave. Newspaper detailing "Man found in Tiber River. Suspected suicide." found on closest left chair. There's a picture of Clay, 2 shrubs, 1 reef and the gravestone in front of the grave: August 8, 2012. Behind the grave is a door-like shape with a slight alcove then a solid wall with bars over it.

16 chairs D:

Also, how did the get the picture? Could they identify the body despite the newspaper giving no details?


Walk up the stairs, towards the light. Color returns about 2/3 the way up. Walk through bright light. Can hear the beeeeeeep of someone's heart that has stopped, and then it starts (beep, beep, beep, beep) like a regular human heart.

I wonder if the heart sound is there because we leave the grave and return to life or if there's more to it.


(While the beeping is happening) William: "Clay Kaczmarek, few are offered the opportunity I now give you."

The "the end is the beginning" theme here is jsut so beautifully done.


There's a ledge (almost like a view point). Jump down. Take damage. Jump down twice more, but no damage taken. First time that you have to jump over gaps. There are birds on one of the platforms that fly away when you get close.

I think I actually heard bird sounds on Animus Island. I walked around a bit when I checked the voice logs for another thread. Does anyone know what specific type those birds are? They appear all throughout the DLC.


When you get to the other side, and walk through, there is a room identical to the first actual room you see. The one with the two narrow windows that end at different places. This time you walk through in the opposite direction and there is a little room off to the side. It's empty and you have to turn around, go back through and the outside has changed.

The curious thing is that none of the other times you have to turn back there's a change in environment, at least as far as I remember.


Throughout all this section is a strange string of musical notes.

The notes play (almost?) always when the grey platforms show up. I don't recognize the tune, though.


There are 6 stairs up to the ability gate. Whole room goes blue-ish (Eagle Vision?). All the silver blocks fly back up and make an odd cube-like shape. They then break apart and fall down again, and you have the ability to create blocks.

Make blocks to get to the gate


I never noticed the blue! And I like that you get the ability after apparently doing your first Assassin training stuff. (Incidentally, at the end of River Styx there are grey platforms and you have all three abilities.)

jamgamerforever
03-05-2012, 03:38 AM
This one reads too much like a walkthrough for my taste, but that's kind of what this is. I'm including all the puzzles in case the obstacles and their placement carry some significance. I decided not to detail the environment unless unusual due to the blocks just being randomly placed - there really is no reason for them.

If you don't think you need all the puzzles, say so, and I won't write them down for future memories.

Memory 2: The Order

After going through the gate in memory 1, there is a small-ish rectangular corridor with two bright windows. (There is a constant line of light for one edge, but the other fluctuates, and if you look through it, the light shines over everything, the entire corridor in this case. They act like 'clouds' of light. - they do not work like this in memory 1. Light doesn't usually travel forwards either, it enters and leaves the window at an angle.)

Vision of stairs from memory 7. Have 2 short glimpses, and then 1 slightly longer glimpse of the image. Static-like noise accompanies the image.

Create blocks to get up to the platform.

William: "We are not public figures and never submit ourselves to the hollow quest for fame. We move through clouded spaces."

NOTE: There are 3 windows with the aforementioned 'cloud' effect, and 1 window at the top overlooking the entire room. This window gives off floating white dust/feathers. I will mention every window that does this. Any window unmentioned has the cloud effect.

Jump down the other side of the platform. There is a previously 'hidden' alcove underneath the platform. Jump down. There is a noise that resembles blinds blowing against each other in the wind/footsteps.

NOTE: The occasional chalk on a chalk board noise is played throughout this memory.

Jump down rectangular hole. Looks rather like the grave from memory 1.

William: "Beware the easy path. Knowledge grows only through challenge."

A narrow ledge (almost like a tiny view point) leads into a large square room with a square window resembling a cross. The light left on the ground resembles a cross also. This window leaves the white dust effect.

Turn around and go under the small ledge, and fall down into another 'hidden' alcove.

Harold: "You're retiling the roof at noon, Clay."
Clay: "But I'm working on a history paper."
Harold: "Let it slide. The foreman's son just finished engineering school and he's pocketing 60k a year. Now, that's where the money is."

There is a peculiar structure to the left that resembles a horse racing stall (the bits where the horses come out). Also reminded me of a garage, with many cars behind each one. Large chasm with 3 long windows descending down, they have the white dust effect. There are black blocks at the bottom (1st appearance) Have to create a block to save yourself.

Create blocks to get over to platform. Up above is the area with the binary code: "Clay created Adam. Adam created Clay." A hidden alcove at the side hides a decipher fragment. Go through a corridor and drop down, taking damage (unless you use a block).

We have our first look at the yellow lasers. The window here gives the white dust effect.

William: "They will throw obstacles in your path to distract you. But never lose sight of your goal."

There is a small opening at the side of the otherwise rectangular room. If you stand inside it, it is the only space where you cannot see the yellow lasers (provided you're looking towards them of course). The white dust leads into this side opening.

2 more sets of yellow lasers. There are now falls here (note no black blocks, just falling). Have to create blocks to get over and past the yellow lasers. Once over, there is a strange 'n' shaped gate above you. It serves no purpose but does stand out. There are now 2 yellow lasers, one either side. Requires 2 blocks to stop them.

The next walkway has gaps to either side, and looks rather like the water streams just before the grave in memory 1. There are two square holes in the front wall. Three yellow lasers cover the back of both holes. You must block your way up to the top, place a block in the laser, and walk through the bottom opening.

The small 'room' after this is the first symmetrical section of the DLC. The light's reflections, however, aren't. The actual windows are. This opens up to a large chasm filled with towers that reach from floor to ceiling. The towers are symmetrical, the room is not. Create blocks to get up and across the chasm.

The first appearance of red lasers. These turn on and off and you just walk through them. The next lasers are horizontal, and you must time your jump to get through them. There's now a very big jump with 3 sets of on/off red lasers all horizontally. They are synchronized. Time your jump, and place a block below you or you will die.

Walk through a strange door-like shape into the first fairly dark room of the memory. The windows are above. Create blocks to get up. Walk through a very narrow corridor to see a gap in the wall. This allows you to see the laser maze and the hand to deactivate the 2 'Animus walls' blocking the path. With no way forward, you must turn back to see a platform above the dark room. Create blocks to get up. The windows here are both shaped oddly, they almost look like keys, and both have a prominent 'H' symbol for the handle.

Once at the top you get a vision of the window from memory 7. Again, 2 short glimpses, then a longer one. The windows in the actual hallway are barred, and the later ones are shaped like 'H's.

Jump down through on/off red lasers. Make a block to save you from the red block floor. 3 sides are now red lasers, the roof is too, and the floor is red blocks. This leaves you 1 direction to go. Block your way over. From this platform, you can see the hand, but there are lasers in the way. Jump down to the right, save yourself from the red floor, and go through more on/off lasers.

Create blocks to reach the hand, then block your way up to the original corridor where the 2 'Animus walls' were. Red lasers now block your way back. (You can, however, make your way back through the maze).

Step down into the Assassin's Ceremony, where the pillars light up red with the Assassin's symbol. 6 pillars either side. One symbol at the top of the Ceremony. They use the same amount as the assassins you can get on Brotherhood/Revelations. 12 regular pillars. 1 leader at the top. Note again the objects are symmetrical but the room is not.

William: "You have proven yourself worthy. Today, commit to uphold the pillars of our Creed (Once near the view point) William: "We are Assassins."

The windows in here give off the white dust effect. You can't place blocks in the chasm below the view point, not once you pass the 'lid' of the chasm. An eagle noise is heard once you jump.

Is the gameplay useful? Again if it isn't I won't write it down because going through each memory like this takes 2+ hours, and I don't want to take the time if it isn't useful. I just think a pattern might emerge is all. If there's anything specific you want me to look for let me know, I'm trying to be as thorough as I possibly can.

samward
03-05-2012, 02:55 PM
Just a thought. If Lucy knew that Clay found out she was on the Templars side, then why would she let Desmond explore the stuff 16 left behind? I know Shawn was the one who figured out they were there... but surly as the leader of the group, Lucy would have found some excuse for Desmond to not explore them... after all it is rather a big risk to her that Desmond might find out what 16 knew... Just seems weird to me that she would take such a big risk... any thoughts?

LightRey
03-05-2012, 02:57 PM
Just a thought. If Lucy knew that Clay found out she was on the Templars side, then why would she let Desmond explore the stuff 16 left behind? I know Shawn was the one who figured out they were there... but surly as the leader of the group, Lucy would have found some excuse for Desmond to not explore them... after all it is rather a big risk to her that Desmond might find out what 16 knew... Just seems weird to me that she would take such a big risk... any thoughts?

Good question, though I still think it's possible she could not really have come up with a good excuse to ignore them. Besides, they're optional to explore.

Apirka
03-05-2012, 06:51 PM
Is the gameplay useful? Again if it isn't I won't write it down because going through each memory like this takes 2+ hours, and I don't want to take the time if it isn't useful. I just think a pattern might emerge is all. If there's anything specific you want me to look for let me know, I'm trying to be as thorough as I possibly can.

I think keeping it to gameplay that stands out, like having to take damage when jumping into the grave might be be the best option. We can always play through the memories ourselves/watch a playthrough for the "normal" stuff. (Though, as I caught the cold of doom, I'm not gonna do much playing or... much of anything, really. Sorry :|)

jamgamerforever
03-05-2012, 07:02 PM
I think keeping it to gameplay that stands out, like having to take damage when jumping into the grave might be be the best option. We can always play through the memories ourselves/watch a playthrough for the "normal" stuff. (Though, as I caught the cold of doom, I'm not gonna do much playing or... much of anything, really. Sorry :|)

As I said before, we have 8 months. There's really no rush for anything :D

I actually have a broken back at the moment so have to sit really still. It's quite difficult for me to write the stuff down in fact, but my hobby and obsession with Assassin's Creed overcomes all common sense!

(P.S. Hope you get better soon!)

Apirka
03-05-2012, 09:11 PM
As I said before, we have 8 months. There's really no rush for anything :D

I actually have a broken back at the moment so have to sit really still. It's quite difficult for me to write the stuff down in fact, but my hobby and obsession with Assassin's Creed overcomes all common sense!

(P.S. Hope you get better soon!)

D: That sounds... very painful. Don't overdo it!

And thank you. Took some medicine and it's getting a bit better.

Steww-
03-05-2012, 09:32 PM
Just to say, I liked the way they presented this info.
I don't think it could have been done as effectively in the normal AC way, and the symbolism/secret messages they've weaved in give us something to talk about for the agonizing months before AC3.

The analysis you guys are doing is great as well, so thanks.

Acrimonious_Nin
03-10-2012, 08:44 PM
Did anyone notice how many chairs there are at Clay's funeral in memory 1 lol and the newspaper on the chair with the heading of ''Body of american man found in the tiber river'' :D just wanted to exploit that bit :D

CanterburyTales
03-20-2012, 10:33 PM
This is very plausible, I like it.

I disagree. If the entirety of AC 1 was a ruse to gain Desmond's trust, it would have required ridiculous amounts of planning from the get-go and for everything to go as planned.

zerocooll21
03-20-2012, 10:57 PM
I disagree. If the entirety of AC 1 was a ruse to gain Desmond's trust, it would have required ridiculous amounts of planning from the get-go and for everything to go as planned.

I never the said the entirety of AC1. I also said its plausible ;)

LightRey
03-20-2012, 11:41 PM
I disagree. If the entirety of AC 1 was a ruse to gain Desmond's trust, it would have required ridiculous amounts of planning from the get-go and for everything to go as planned.
That's because it's not true. The Templars really did want that map at the end.

EDIT: dammit I need to get my act together. I keep missing words. Still, the point stands.

CanterburyTales
03-21-2012, 12:29 AM
I never the said the entirety of AC1. I also said its plausible

Actually, you did (sort of); a post by jamgamerforever wrote:


Ah! So you think the entirety of AC1 was just a ruse to have Desmond trust Lucy. Getting the map was just an added bonus for the Templars.

To which you responded:


This is very plausible, I like it.

I was disagreeing with you on the plausibility of this situation.

zerocooll21
03-21-2012, 01:01 AM
I was disagreeing with you on the plausibility of this situation.

Ahh I C. So you know what happens already? Car to share?

jamgamerforever
08-07-2012, 08:39 PM
So... it's been a while since I've been here. Anyways, new thoughts.

The Lost Archive is being played by the AI Construct of Clay Kaczmarek. The "real" Clay uploaded himself (and all his DNA, along with his memories) into the Animus. He hid these in 10 pieces within Renaissance Rome.

Once they had been pieced together, the AI Construct looped through these memories. We know not how many times. At the end of Memory 7 the Construct is quarantined. This was set by the original Clay to prevent the Construct from escaping before October 10, 2012. That is the date it had to be released. Whether Clay saw that himself or was told by Juno is unknown.

I have inferred the Loop is set up to get the Construct synched with Clay's memories. Only once the Construct fully becomes Clay Kaczmarek is it released to help Desmond Miles.

Another meaning then, to "The End is Only the Beginning". As Clay dies (in the memories), the AI Construct is born. Therefore, as Clay reaches his end, another Clay (the AI) is beginning.

ScarFace_1415
08-07-2012, 08:42 PM
I've finished it and i don't got any trophy !!

is there a way to get the trophies or not ?

jamgamerforever
08-07-2012, 08:47 PM
I've finished it and i don't got any trophy !!

is there a way to get the trophies or not ?

The trophies should trigger as you get them. That's odd if they are not triggering.

ScarFace_1415
08-07-2012, 08:53 PM
The trophies should trigger as you get them. That's odd if they are not triggering.

I told you I've finished it and i don't got any trophy !!

jamgamerforever
08-07-2012, 09:04 PM
I told you I've finished it and i don't got any trophy !!

The only solution I can think of is to uninstall "The Lost Archive" and then reinstall it and replay it. Pretty major bug, and not one I've heard happening before.

LoyalACFan
08-07-2012, 09:10 PM
The only solution I can think of is to uninstall "The Lost Archive" and then reinstall it and replay it. Pretty major bug, and not one I've heard happening before.

Do this. It actually is pretty common, it happened to both me and my roommate. Just delete and reinstall it.

ScarFace_1415
08-08-2012, 01:02 AM
ok thanks guys

but i've same problem in Assassin's Creed Brotherhood The Da Vinci Disappearance in High Roller trophy

i've uninstalled it and reinstalled but i didn't got it :\

jamgamerforever
08-08-2012, 03:00 AM
Strange things are happening.

I've been replaying the entire series, and have got to Revelations. "The Lost Archive" feels great when you play it in between "The Da Vinci Disappearance" and Revelations. What Clay says in Revelations proper actually makes more sense now.

Anyway, all the Desmond memories are open, even though I have 0 Animus Memory Fragments. I also have the database entries for Greek Fire, and Capadocia, seemingly for no reason. Strange.

LoyalACFan
08-08-2012, 03:16 AM
Strange things are happening.

I've been replaying the entire series, and have got to Revelations. "The Lost Archive" feels great when you play it in between "The Da Vinci Disappearance" and Revelations. What Clay says in Revelations proper actually makes more sense now.

Anyway, all the Desmond memories are open, even though I have 0 Animus Memory Fragments. I also have the database entries for Greek Fire, and Capadocia, seemingly for no reason. Strange.

Once you unlock the Desmond missions, they're unlocked for good on all new files. At least, that's how it is on mine. Revelations is quite glitchy.

jamgamerforever
08-08-2012, 03:24 AM
Once you unlock the Desmond missions, they're unlocked for good on all new files. At least, that's how it is on mine. Revelations is quite glitchy.

Wow, that's rather odd. I've not known of games carrying over things like that, except for skins. Yeah, it's supposed to be glitchy but I've been fortunate enough to not encounter any major ones. I got the one guard multiplies continuously glitch which amused me to no end. Once there was about 100 of them, they just started falling off the rooftops en masse.

LoyalACFan
08-08-2012, 03:26 AM
Wow, that's rather odd. I've not known of games carrying over things like that, except for skins. Yeah, it's supposed to be glitchy but I've been fortunate enough to not encounter any major ones. I got the one guard multiplies continuously glitch which amused me to no end. Once there was about 100 of them, they just started falling off the rooftops en masse.

This actually happened to me in AC2 XD I remember I was playing it when I was really tired, and I was thinking "WTF they're using my Apple of Eden against me!!"

zandadoum
08-30-2012, 08:06 AM
INCEPTION MOVIE SPOILER!

i am starting to think that the whole AC universe is like the movie: animus inside animus inside animus.

maybe we aren't really playing desmond, maybe we're playing desmonds son, who is reviving desmonds memories who is reviving his ancestor memories

maybe that is "the loop"

infamous_ezio
08-30-2012, 09:39 AM
INCEPTION MOVIE SPOILER!

i am starting to think that the whole AC universe is like the movie: animus inside animus inside animus.

maybe we aren't really playing desmond, maybe we're playing desmonds son, who is reviving desmonds memories who is reviving his ancestor memories

maybe that is "the loop"

Interesting, but jeffrey yohalem stated that the loop is pretty much this cycle humanity is stuck in,and it's not moving forward, hence when clay ultimately kills himself in order to help desmond, he is breaking the 'loop' if you get what i mean