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View Full Version : They need to take away the ability to use the hidden blades to fight with.



The_Despair_
02-17-2012, 11:34 PM
They should return to AC1's version of the hidden blades where you could not block with the hidden blade if you used it in combat. AC1 was the only game where I actually needed to use my sword/dagger. It's silly to have the hidden blade be effective as a weapon AND have the ability to counter every attack. This would make swords and daggers not completely useless if only for the novelty.

LightRey
02-17-2012, 11:40 PM
I disagree. Each weapon has its own advantages and not being able to use the hidden blade like that makes little sense to me. Besides, AC gameplay is about being free to do things your own creative way, so the more you can do with them the better.

kriegerdesgottes
02-17-2012, 11:46 PM
I too must disagree. I can see where you are coming from but I personally think it was done well. It's not like he just blocks blows from a sword with the hidden blade. He does a slide motion where he kind of deflects of swing and lets it slide down the hidden blade which I think is cool. I do hope however that we are not forced to use the hook blade. I really don't care much for the hook blade and if it is in ACIII then I hope it's optional.

LordWolv
02-18-2012, 06:58 AM
And I, have to agree. It is a tool of silent assassination, a weapon intended for inflicting a quick death while staying undetected. To me it seems like bringing a crossbow to a sword fight, utterly pointless. It makes no sense when daggers are just as quick, much more easy to control (aim etc) and much more durable. Before you say you can't block with daggers, the wrist brace. You need to think of the pressures when fighting with the blade, attached to your arm. If someone pushes it down, you're going to have the other end dig into your arm. If it's knocked hard it's almost definitely not going to hold up and stay on, as it's only delicate clockwork and some leather keeping it as the mechanism it is. It just doesn't make sense to me.

ElTORO713
02-18-2012, 07:14 AM
Well leather lasts a long time if you keep it in good condition but as for the hidden blades its sometimes saves you do you really want to go back to how it was that really doesnt make any sense bcuz sometimes even though you have a sword you cant counter someone with a heavy weapon but with the blades you can cause you can move a bit more freely than with your sword and its pretty freakin awesome when yo think about it so its better to use in a fight cause some times you also dont even have a weapon to fight with

LightRey
02-18-2012, 11:36 AM
If anything, they should go even further. I can think of so many (little) things that one could do with the hidden blade(s).

D.I.D.
02-18-2012, 12:35 PM
I think it's likely to change anyway, along with other details. It's such an iconic weapon that they'll probably always keep it in the series, but I suspect they'll have to slim it down and make it fit under the clothes if we're going to see later time periods or it'll be too incongruous with the rest of the world. The hood is probably going to have to be dropped too unless they give us a female player character, in which case there's more flexibility to combine hoods with other clothing.

rafiqul84
02-18-2012, 10:51 PM
disagree; fighting with the hidden blade produces a little challenge of fighting for an otherwise VERY EASY game - if they took that ability away i probs wouldn't even buy the game. Seriously, single player would begin to get boring pretty quickly.

DavisP92
02-19-2012, 05:24 AM
I have to agree somewhat, the fact that we can block and attack with the hidden blade doesn't really make sense. Mainly because guarding with the blades doesn't make much sense and attacking with them against swords, daggers and heavy weapons doesn't seem realistic either. I liked how AC1 did it, you couldn't attack the guards with it unless they weren't guarding. And of course counters were fun, that's what made the game challenging. Now all weapons in AC are easy to kill all guards in the world

Krayus Korianis
02-19-2012, 10:00 AM
They need to take away your ability to post tbh, OP.

Nowhere would UbiSoft be THAT stupid.

ShaneO7K
02-19-2012, 01:43 PM
I still think hand-to-hand combat could be taken further than just a few simple punches

LightRey
02-19-2012, 01:52 PM
I still think hand-to-hand combat could be taken further than just a few simple punches

I agree. I want taking out enemies without killing them to be a realistic option.

ShaneO7K
02-19-2012, 02:00 PM
I agree. I want taking out enemies without killing them to be a realistic option.

It could possibly be used for bonuses during contracts like only kill the target, giving a more stealthy option. Or during a mission the assassin must attend an event to be able to take out a templar, to do so you must leave all weapons behind, when inside if combat was certain you could break enemies arms and legs to disable/ knock them out. ( Think you could do something similar in AC1 not sure though.)

Some would say it could make the assassin OP but really they are supposed to skilled anyway and when they are already able to scale buildings in little time they should also able to fight a little faster.

Black_Widow9
02-19-2012, 09:16 PM
They need to take away your ability to post tbh, OP.

Nowhere would UbiSoft be THAT stupid.
Play nice.

I also disagree. The hidden blade is my weapon of choice! :p

DavisP92
02-19-2012, 09:33 PM
I have to admit I use the hidden blades as the main weapon as well, but imo i would like to see them do away with it making the hidden blade only for quick kills (assassinations and counters) and would prefer they improved the hand-to-hand combat, making it like the E3 trailer. Not just beating guards up but using their weapons against them (like how you kill the stalker). If they did i wouldn't carry a sword, dagger or crossbow. Just my hidden blades and throwing knives.

kriegerdesgottes
02-20-2012, 12:05 AM
I still think hand-to-hand combat could be taken further than just a few simple punches

I agree with this as well. I feel there is some real potential to be had in hand to hand combat still.

rileypoole1234
02-20-2012, 12:59 AM
I disagree with the OP. I'd say I use the hidden blade the most out of any weapon.

Kit572
02-20-2012, 01:40 AM
I agree. I want taking out enemies without killing them to be a realistic option.

I agree. I want to be able to crack my enemies necks or something during stealth missions.


And i disagree with the whole "Take away hidden blade fighting", hidden blades are my weapon of choice and are awesome.

kalo.yanis
02-20-2012, 02:54 AM
I disagree with the OP. I'd say I use the hidden blade the most out of any weapon.

Agreed. I'd rather have them remove the sword and the crossbow. They aren't really very incognito, if you ask me. Daggers and hidden blades all the way!

And the use-your-enemies'-weapons-against-them approach + advanced hand-to-hand should become more versatile and useful. I think this was mentioned.

JumpInTheFire13
02-20-2012, 03:18 AM
I think what the OP was trying to say is that the hidden blade has made all other weapons obsolete. It can counter everything and it's quicker. Swords, daggers, etc should have some strength/ability that you can't do with the hidden blade. I really like the ideas that were said about hand to hand combat.

kalo.yanis
02-20-2012, 03:27 AM
I don't think it's quite made them obsolete. I rarely use the hidden blade when fighting larger groups, as both swords and daggers deal much more damage with each blow and have a much larger reaction window. Daggers are about as quick as the hidden blades as well. Plus, you have the benefit of double combos when using the hidden gun or knives.

Also, you can't directly counter varangians (the spearmen in ACR) with the hidden blades. You need to use the Shift counter for that.

JumpInTheFire13
02-20-2012, 03:37 AM
That's what I found to be very... stupid... about Revelations. Ezio could counter spearmen with the hidden blade in AC2 and Brotherhood but now he somehow lost the ability in Revelations. What's the "Shift counter" ?

kalo.yanis
02-20-2012, 03:46 AM
Oops, sorry. That's when you press down Shift whilst countering on the PC. He throws them to the ground using the hookblade.

ElTORO713
02-20-2012, 05:19 AM
Yeah that sucks how do you lose an ability you have had once before its not like there is something that would make you forget they should really do something about that I can get as many kill streaks with the blades bcuz once in a while some dude with a spear come a messes me up

D.I.D.
02-20-2012, 11:13 AM
Yeah that sucks how do you lose an ability you have had once before its not like there is something that would make you forget they should really do something about that I can get as many kill streaks with the blades bcuz once in a while some dude with a spear come a messes me up

It's just an attempt to balance the combat. The spearmen are there to force you to switch your attacks. If they needed to explain it, that's easy: "these guards are better trained than Italy's guards", or "Ezio's a tiny bit slower than he used to be", or whatever.

Hopefully there'll be a completely new system for AC3 anyway. I'd like something that rewarded fast reactions, and punished you more for getting things wrong.

ChaosxNetwork
02-20-2012, 10:18 PM
The fact that it is a game and that mashing the X ****on until I insta kill a guard by slitting his throat open with both blades is highly satisfying I am going to have to disagree.

Just don't use YOUR blades in that way, why limit the rest of us?

Azula2005
02-20-2012, 10:31 PM
terrible idea sir.

The_Despair_
02-21-2012, 02:56 AM
Yeah, I know the hidden blades are great in combat. I use them all the time. But that's the problem. Why carry a sword and a dagger when the hidden blade works just fine, even better. On gamefaqs everyone is always complaining that the game is too easy. I agree. At least if they took away the ability to guard/attack with the hidden blade, you'd have a reason to use your sword.

JumpInTheFire13
02-21-2012, 05:20 AM
^^^ That's what I was trying to say, you just worded it better.

DavisP92
02-21-2012, 05:46 AM
I'm with despair on this, the concept of making the game harder or more challenging is brought up on the forums quite a lot. And making the assumption that there are individuals on this thread that would like AC more challenging as well, it is quite amusing that the majority of individuals here (this thread) do not like the concept of bringing the hidden blade combat back to its origin (which was more realistic). My vote is get rid of hidden blade combat (attacking with it, but keep counters and perhaps kill streaks) but vastly improve on hand-to-hand combat.

LightRey
02-21-2012, 09:10 AM
I'm with despair on this, the concept of making the game harder or more challenging is brought up on the forums quite a lot. And making the assumption that there are individuals on this thread that would like AC more challenging as well, it is quite amusing that the majority of individuals here (this thread) do not like the concept of bringing the hidden blade combat back to its origin (which was more realistic). My vote is get rid of hidden blade combat (attacking with it, but keep counters and perhaps kill streaks) but vastly improve on hand-to-hand combat.

No it wasn't more realistic. How in god's name is it unrealistic to be able to fight with weapons. Weapons that freaking extend from your arms basically at will. The hidden blade was terribly unrealistic in AC1 if only for the fact that you couldn't fight with it.

LightRey
02-21-2012, 09:11 AM
I'm with despair on this, the concept of making the game harder or more challenging is brought up on the forums quite a lot. And making the assumption that there are individuals on this thread that would like AC more challenging as well, it is quite amusing that the majority of individuals here (this thread) do not like the concept of bringing the hidden blade combat back to its origin (which was more realistic). My vote is get rid of hidden blade combat (attacking with it, but keep counters and perhaps kill streaks) but vastly improve on hand-to-hand combat.


No it wasn't more realistic. How in god's name is it unrealistic to be able to fight with weapons. Weapons that freaking extend from your arms basically at will. The hidden blade was terribly unrealistic in AC1 if only for the fact that you couldn't fight with it.

The_Despair_
02-21-2012, 11:24 AM
No it wasn't more realistic. How in god's name is it unrealistic to be able to fight with weapons. Weapons that freaking extend from your arms basically at will. The hidden blade was terribly unrealistic in AC1 if only for the fact that you couldn't fight with it.

A weapon attached to your wrist which basically completely extends out of its sheathe so that there is maybe one or two inches of it still held tightly sounds like a weak weapon to me. It makes sense that you wouldnt want to risk blocking with the weapon and fighting with it would basically require you to swing your arm like an ape. Ezio even shows you why its a bad idea to block with it and breaks it in the ACR trailer.

LightRey
02-21-2012, 11:39 AM
A weapon attached to your wrist which basically completely extends out of its sheathe so that there is maybe one or two inches of it still held tightly sounds like a weak weapon to me. It makes sense that you wouldnt want to risk blocking with the weapon and fighting with it would basically require you to swing your arm like an ape. Ezio even shows you why its a bad idea to block with it and breaks it in the ACR trailer.

You can't block with the blade. When you block with the hidden blades equipped you use the bracer, not the blade. The blade is purely used for stabbing and slicing.

Also, as you can see from the combat animations, fighting with it is clearly not "apish" and really, saying that it would be strange to be able to fight with blades that extend from your arms is like saying it would be strange to be able to fight with your fists.

DavisP92
02-21-2012, 12:45 PM
@Lightrey,

I'm sorry man but i'm still going to have to disagree with you, but before i do that it's amusing that you tried to simply the concept of fighting with the hidden blade. The blade is nothing but two inches wide (probably) and whatever inches long (not that big honestly). the idea that you have to block with it (yes sometimes he blocks with it from what i remember but it has been a while i might have to look at it again) and attack while almost every other guard has a larger blade (swords, axes and daggers). the way ezio fought in the CGI trailer looked so much better for the hidden blade fighting mainly because he didn't keep it out the entire time (this happens when you are guarding) in yes if a bigger sword or ace hits the hidden blade then it will break which was nice to see in the trailer. If you remember when attacking with the hidden blade, ezio is swinging full force (or it appears like that) and the guards do block it. The hidden blade should break after that constantly happens. Also idk about swinging like an ape, although Ezio does swing his arms a lot. the trailer was so much better there too, i remember the kill with the hidden blade was just putting his hand out to stop someone from getting close to him and he killed him.

ps. just so you know, the ideal AC gameplay for me is how the trailer fight was :D

LightRey
02-21-2012, 12:50 PM
@Lightrey,

I'm sorry man but i'm still going to have to disagree with you, but before i do that it's amusing that you tried to simply the concept of fighting with the hidden blade. The blade is nothing but two inches wide (probably) and whatever inches long (not that big honestly). the idea that you have to block with it (yes sometimes he blocks with it from what i remember but it has been a while i might have to look at it again) and attack while almost every other guard has a larger blade (swords, axes and daggers). the way ezio fought in the CGI trailer looked so much better for the hidden blade fighting mainly because he didn't keep it out the entire time (this happens when you are guarding) in yes if a bigger sword or ace hits the hidden blade then it will break which was nice to see in the trailer. If you remember when attacking with the hidden blade, ezio is swinging full force (or it appears like that) and the guards do block it. The hidden blade should break after that constantly happens. Also idk about swinging like an ape, although Ezio does swing his arms a lot. the trailer was so much better there too, i remember the kill with the hidden blade was just putting his hand out to stop someone from getting close to him and he killed him.

ps. just so you know, the ideal AC gameplay for me is how the trailer fight was :D

You'll have to look again, because he always blocks with the bracer. There is only one block animation for each weapon. You are also underestimating the strength of steel significantly. There is also a huge difference between a large sword or axe hitting the blade and the blade hitting a large sword or axe, that difference is the size of the force, which is what would matter if we're looking at what would break such a blade.

As we all know (I would hope) E = .5mv^2, with E being the kinetic energy, m being the mass, and v being the velocity. Obviously the hidden blade has a very small mass, so even if it is swung with a greater velocity, it is unlikely it will have a kinetic energy even close to that of a large sword or axe. Ergo, the blade will not suffer at all.

Additionally, we have to keep in mind that when a guard blocks an attack with the hidden blade it is deflected, not blocked completely. That means that most of the kinetic energy of the swing is dispersed and that means it will suffer even less damage.

DavisP92
02-21-2012, 01:33 PM
@Lightrey,

I'll take a look at it later today, but i don't think the blade is actually deflected it makes contact with force (its the animation where the guard doesn't really block the attack right and takes a bit of damage). I was using the concept of F=Ma and obviously the object with more force will always win in strength (unless the one wielding it is more skilled of course). An object with more force colliding with another object with less force the weaker one will crumble. now i'm not an expert in this field, but from what i've seen throughout my life this usually happens. this is why i think the hidden blade would normally break (like it was illustrated in the cgi trailer).

LightRey
02-21-2012, 01:50 PM
@Lightrey,

I'll take a look at it later today, but i don't think the blade is actually deflected it makes contact with force (its the animation where the guard doesn't really block the attack right and takes a bit of damage). I was using the concept of F=Ma and obviously the object with more force will always win in strength (unless the one wielding it is more skilled of course). An object with more force colliding with another object with less force the weaker one will crumble. now i'm not an expert in this field, but from what i've seen throughout my life this usually happens. this is why i think the hidden blade would normally break (like it was illustrated in the cgi trailer).

That is not how it works my friend. Newton's thrid law states that "The mutual forces of action and reaction between two bodies are equal, opposite and collinear.". This means that when you hit the blade with the sword, the force hitting the blade = the force hitting the sword. However, the force generated by swinging a sword (especially with both hands, as is the case in the trailer) is generally much greater than the force generated by swinging a hidden blade. So if you swing a hidden blade at a sword, you are less likely to break the hidden blade than if you swing a sword at a hidden blade. The hidden blade will break if the forces keeping it's structure together are not strong enough to resist the force of the blow.

You're right that the hidden blade is not always deflected, but let me give some numbers to show you the problem more clearly:
let's estimate that the mass of a hidden blade is about the same as that of a dagger (~1/3 kg) and the mass of the sword is that of a longsword (~1.5 kg = 3/2 kg).

Now we assume that the energy transfer of both weapons is about the same (so both deliver a direct hit like in the trailer). This way the kinetic energies of both swings have to be equal. This means that:
1/2 * 1/3 kg * v1^2 = 1/2 * 3/2 kg * v2^2
(v2/v1)^2 = 2/9 kg
v2/v1 = sqrt(2)/3 = ~0.5 (it's a little smaller)
thus: v1 > 2*v2

This means that Ezio has to swing his hidden blade with a velocity greater than twice that of a sword swung with both hands to generate the same force on the blade. I'd say that's near impossible.

DavisP92
02-21-2012, 01:57 PM
hmmm. i can somewhat see your point (it's early, and marketing is on my mind). so to make sure i completely understand, are you saying that in order for ezio to break the hidden blade he has to match the force of the sword being swung?

I can agree with that the likelihood of the hidden blade breaking, when it is the weapon that is initiating contact, is low. But this is where i have to go back later today and play ACR, if the blade is what actually blocks the sword then it should break.

LightRey
02-21-2012, 02:00 PM
hmmm. i can somewhat see your point (it's early, and marketing is on my mind). so to make sure i completely understand, are you saying that in order for ezio to break the hidden blade he has to match the force of the sword being swung?

Basically, yes. That is of course assuming that is the minimal force required to break the hidden blade, but even if not, the difference is quite significant. It's of course also ignoring all the other factors that come into play.

DavisP92
02-21-2012, 02:08 PM
But from what i can remember in the trailer, Ezio didn't really swing his blade, but rather placed it in front of his head so he would be killed and the blade still broke.

LightRey
02-21-2012, 02:10 PM
But from what i can remember in the trailer, Ezio didn't really swing his blade, but rather placed it in front of his head so he would be killed and the blade still broke.

Yes, but the guy who broke it did swing his sword and with both hands at that. That is the major problem.

TorQue1988
02-21-2012, 02:12 PM
I don't understand why anyone wouldn't want to be able to fight with the hidden blades.
LightRey is right. If it was up to me i would improve the combat with them even further.

DavisP92
02-21-2012, 02:17 PM
I guess i was going under the idea that every guard was going to swing full force with both hands (or at least once in a while). But even though by using the hidden blade the way we do, it would cause wear and tear on the blade. so like torque said improving the combat with them would be nice. But i still would prefer hand to hand combat, in fact why not just improve all combat :P.

LightRey
02-21-2012, 02:21 PM
I guess i was going under the idea that every guard was going to swing full force with both hands (or at least once in a while). But even though by using the hidden blade the way we do, it would cause wear and tear on the blade. so like torque said improving the combat with them would be nice. But i still would prefer hand to hand combat, in fact why not just improve all combat :P.

Even if they did, Ezio would still guard with his bracer. The hidden blade only directly hits enemy blades if Ezio attacks, not the other way around and all attacks performed with 2 hands can't be blocked.

DavisP92
02-21-2012, 02:25 PM
see that is why i have to go back to seeing the blocking in ACR today, because i was sure that he blocked with them. However, not that i am thinking more about it it may have been when he deflects the attack, but i'll check it out later.well only heavy attacks from brutes and i think spearmen attacks can't be blocked. but everything else can.

TorQue1988
02-21-2012, 02:28 PM
I guess i was going under the idea that every guard was going to swing full force with both hands (or at least once in a while). But even though by using the hidden blade the way we do, it would cause wear and tear on the blade. so like torque said improving the combat with them would be nice. But i still would prefer hand to hand combat, in fact why not just improve all combat :P.
Yeah but then if the hidden blades would be damaged in time, the same rule would apply to any weapon.
And if you prefer hand to hand combat then just use you fists and not the hidden blades, it's simple. No one is forcing you to use your hidden blades in combat if you don't like it.
For me, if a game has more combat and gameplay options is better, because you can experiment and the game won't feel repetitive.
Removing or limiting gameplay mechanics isn't the right way to raise the difficulty of a game. That would mean that the developers are just lazy.

LightRey
02-21-2012, 02:32 PM
see that is why i have to go back to seeing the blocking in ACR today, because i was sure that he blocked with them. However, not that i am thinking more about it it may have been when he deflects the attack, but i'll check it out later.well only heavy attacks from brutes and i think spearmen attacks can't be blocked. but everything else can.

There is only one instance where he actually uses the blade to fend off an attack. That is during a counter when he uses both blades and uses them to make a V-shape to catch the opponent's weapon. This is completely different from a direct hit, however, since the force is already halved because of the second hidden blade and because the force is slowly absorbed thanks to the V-shape.

mrjimenez
02-21-2012, 02:34 PM
My little brother always speaks about this game, he is always saying how nice it is. But for me the game is not that interesting. I see it but I don't like what I see later I come to this wonderful forum and find a lot of people speaking wonders about it but I still don't get it. Is there anyone who can make me understand what makes this game so good that I haven't seen?



best regards from apuestas deportivas (https://www.interapuestas.com/es/apuestasdeportivas)

DavisP92
02-21-2012, 02:36 PM
@Torque,

yea that's why i liked the concept that blades break, but that would get very tedious after a while. It's not a concept of forcing someone to use a certain fighting style i do use fists in the game but seeing how they haven't really improved like i hope they will in AC3 i go to hidden blades and dagger. and you are right about removing or limiting gameplay isn't the right way to make a game more challenging but Ubisoft has already done that with the syn. system. (yea i'm one of those that says either remove it or revamp it, but i still play the game getting 100 syn. because i like AC).

@lightrey,

yea i remember that one, i wasn't referring to counters and i agree the the force applied is halved because of the second hidden blade. It's been a while since i've played AC, when i go back to it i'll look at all the hidden blade animations again

D.I.D.
02-21-2012, 08:30 PM
I don't understand why anyone wouldn't want to be able to fight with the hidden blades.
LightRey is right. If it was up to me i would improve the combat with them even further.

You could still have the ability but be forced to dodge to use them, or something along those lines.

They've done all kinds of things to alter the combat from game to game, and I'm not sure if they can take things any further under the current system, so I'll be very surprised if AC3 doesn't give the combat a complete overhaul. I'm hoping for that anyway. Having to learn something completely new from scratch would be very welcome.

RzaRecta357
02-21-2012, 09:29 PM
It just wouldn't make any sense now to not have it. I enjoyed the challenge in AC1. But they've learned their lesson and know people want a bit more challenge. We got some stronger guards. Good enough!

Dieinthedark
02-22-2012, 01:23 AM
It just wouldn't make any sense now to not have it. I enjoyed the challenge in AC1. But they've learned their lesson and know people want a bit more challenge. We got some stronger guards. Good enough!

Stronger guards yes but I want it even more so, stop with whole pull a gun and shoot you because IMHO (@ Lightrey lol) I am personally tired of the guns thing. I'd rather see more difficult actual sword play type combat, maybe something more in depth with combat. Not really sure exactly.

But on topic I would say no, the hidden blades need to stay but a new game should have a new assassin who isn't a master assassin already and therefore has to work to get the hidden blades in turn making you appreciate their capabilities with them more.

LightRey
02-22-2012, 08:48 AM
It just wouldn't make any sense now to not have it. I enjoyed the challenge in AC1. But they've learned their lesson and know people want a bit more challenge. We got some stronger guards. Good enough!

Exactly. The fact of the matter is that not being able to fight with them in a way that is just obvious is ridiculous. Even in AC1 where there wasn't a serious bracer it realistically should've been an option to at least be able to do more than just stab people. Besides, I would wager most people prefer the hidden blade combat as it is now.