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watteville
02-06-2004, 08:20 AM
This is probably one of the nicest planes I have seen, the very forgotten l'Arsenal VG-33, fast, thin and well armed, could have been the French Yak way ahead of its time.

With it's high aspect ratio thin eliptical wing it was doing 580 kph on 830 Hp.

designed in 1939 as soon as the war broke it was supposed to be built out of simple wood assemblies coming from France's large numbers of mom and pop woodshops. They were hoping to churn 300 of these fighters a month.

One can only imagine what could have happened if hundreds of operational VG-33 vere ready by 1940 instead of 3.

This guy is a fanatic trying to rebuild one; it's a great site

http://arsenalvg33.free.fr/index.htm

watteville
02-06-2004, 08:20 AM
This is probably one of the nicest planes I have seen, the very forgotten l'Arsenal VG-33, fast, thin and well armed, could have been the French Yak way ahead of its time.

With it's high aspect ratio thin eliptical wing it was doing 580 kph on 830 Hp.

designed in 1939 as soon as the war broke it was supposed to be built out of simple wood assemblies coming from France's large numbers of mom and pop woodshops. They were hoping to churn 300 of these fighters a month.

One can only imagine what could have happened if hundreds of operational VG-33 vere ready by 1940 instead of 3.

This guy is a fanatic trying to rebuild one; it's a great site

http://arsenalvg33.free.fr/index.htm

Cold_Gambler
02-06-2004, 09:11 AM
Never heard of it before but it does have a certain elegance to it- thx 4 the link http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

TheGozr
02-06-2004, 09:17 AM
Great looking smaller plane , it look very agile.

http://www.battle-of-france-add-on.france-simulation.com/images/vg33/VG3.jpg

http://arsenalvg33.free.fr/Photos%20avions/vg33double.jpg

-GOZR
"TheMotorheads" All for One and One for All (http://www.french.themotorhead.com/themotorhead_fighters/)

[This message was edited by TheGozr on Fri February 06 2004 at 08:37 AM.]

LilHorse
02-06-2004, 09:25 AM
Beautiful plane. Looks like a cross between a P-51 and a Spitfire.

SUPERAEREO
02-06-2004, 09:48 AM
The VG33 has always been one of the most admired French designs of WW2. I hope someone will model it one day, maybe for a Battle of France addition to BoB!

MiloMorai
02-06-2004, 09:56 AM
One needs to click on the VG30 to see the rest of the VG3x line of a/c.

Some added tidbits:

- the VG 30 was suppose to use the Potez 12Dc 'flat 12' (610hp @ 1000m)

- the VG32 used a Allison V-1710C15 engine



Long live the Horse Clans.

watteville
02-06-2004, 10:37 AM
Actually they had about 200 of these planes at various stages of completion by the time Germans marched in Paris in June 40, they were all destoyed as to not fall in the wrong hands.

Kinda reminds me of a Yak-3 with 4 mg instead of 2 and a higher aspect ratio wing.
it must have climbed and turned fabulously

WUAF_Boxer
02-06-2004, 12:01 PM
I would love to be able to fly this plane eventualy.

SKULLS_LZ
02-06-2004, 12:01 PM
What a tragic end for such a beautiful plane.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.jwilliamsmusic.it/belushi.jpg
Yeah I vulched ya. Now put a cork in it and pick another base before I bust a c@p in your sorry @ss.

grinman
02-06-2004, 02:06 PM
Well, http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif they may have copied the yak design (I doubt it! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif) It's Lovley! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

TheGozr
02-06-2004, 05:57 PM
It is very elegante and beasty on the same time..
Hope Olegs Knows about that one..

-GOZR
"TheMotorheads" All for One and One for All (http://www.french.themotorhead.com/themotorhead_fighters/)

TheGozr
02-06-2004, 10:18 PM
We really should try to go around and gather some infos about those planes.

Lets not forgot such a beauty..

-GOZR
"TheMotorheads" All for One and One for All (http://www.french.themotorhead.com/themotorhead_fighters/)

clover4
02-06-2004, 11:09 PM
Very nice looking.nice lines.

My favorite french fighter has to be DeWoitine D.520.I havent really got a link for it ,just books and the pic is a plastic model so it doesnt really do it justice.But a beauty all the same http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
http://www.tamiyausa.com/product/plastic/148aircraftseries/images/61048.jpg

This is the info that came with the pic:The Dewoitine D.520, without doubt the best fighter at the disposal of the French Air Force (Armee de l'Air) in 1940, was developed by the French engineer Emille Dewoitine during the late 1930's. In this period of growing international tension, France had gained consciousness of her lag behind Germany and her future ally, Great Britain. New high performance fighters were urgently needed.

Performing its first flight on 2 October 1938, the Dewoitine D.520 was an elegant and nimble monoplane with refined aerodynamics and outstanding performances. It was powered by an in line 12 cylinder Hispano Suiza 12Y45 engine yielding 935hp and allowing a top level speed of 534km/h. Its armament comprised one 20mm HS404 gun firing through the propeller hub and two 7.5mm machine guns in each wing. The first production aircraft made its maiden flight on 31 October 1939. Only 200 out of the 437 aircraft produced before the 25 June 1940 armistice were able to participate to the aerial flights of the French Campaign. Their pilots claimed 108 official aerial victories and 39 probables. Had the Armee de l'Air possessed a few more squadrons of this superb fighter, the fate of the Luftwaffe in the skies of France might have been different.


*S* Clover4

warweapon2
02-06-2004, 11:40 PM
BUT ITS FRENCH!!! :P

watteville
02-07-2004, 07:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by warweapon2:
BUT ITS FRENCH!!! :P<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So is Concorde, most helicopters, all multi hull F-1 sailboats, High speed trains, Bugatti, Hispano-Suiza, Hermes bags, La Cornue, Waterworks, Chateau-latour, I could go on and on.

The fact that right now France's government is a corrupted, old fashioned, inefficient old boys club, should not mask the fact that when it comes to high end design the french are pretty good; 580 kph on 830 hp is impressive; For info, a 109-E goes 560 kph with 1200 hp, and both planes are witin 100 kg the same weight.

One13
02-07-2004, 09:04 AM
Concerning the Dewoitine D.520, I remember reading Eric Browns book on aircraft he had tested. he said it was great in the air but a real dog to land and take off. Some French pilot told him it was only really safe when parked in a hanger!
An interesting plane and one needed if you are going to fight the battle of France.
Also what about the Bloch MB-151 &152? 593 were delivered to French squadrons during the war.
Also the MB-157, 441mph(710kph) in 1942.
Finally how about the Arsenal VB10? Two Hispano-Suiza HS-12X engines, four 20mm cannon, six 0.5inch machine guns & top speed 700kph.

-----------------------------
One plane we really need.....

http://uk.geocities.com/peter.squire3@btopenworld.com/vampire-sig.jpg

Get my skins at....
http://www.il2skins.com/?action=list&authoridfilter=one13&ts=1073140490&comefrom=cedits

grinman
02-07-2004, 10:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by warweapon2:
BUT ITS FRENCH!!! :P<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif Warweapon2 are you saying the french are the worst contry in the world?! I don't think so! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

watteville
02-07-2004, 01:10 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by One13:
Concerning the Dewoitine D.520, I remember reading Eric Browns book on aircraft he had tested. he said it was great in the air but a real dog to land and take off. Some French pilot told him it was only really safe when parked in a hanger!
An interesting plane and one needed if you are going to fight the battle of France.
Also what about the Bloch MB-151 &152? 593 were delivered to French squadrons during the war.
Also the MB-157, 441mph(710kph) in 1942.
Finally how about the Arsenal VB10? Two Hispano-Suiza HS-12X engines, four 20mm cannon, six 0.5inch machine guns & top speed 700kph.

that's a 1946 plane.

as for the Dewotine; It must have been a plane very different from others; One pilot; le Gloan scored 5 kills in one sortie with one only to crash land a P-39 a few months later. I also heard that German student who trained on it crashed at an alarming rate. I would be curious to know what was it that made it such a bad lander; maybe a nasty stall with no warning? All I know was that it was a delight to fly and hard to get in a spin.

clover4
02-07-2004, 03:50 PM
I cant really find any info on this problem you mention about landing and taking off.unless it was down to the early designs I.E 500,510,513 having a skid as a tail wheel.Still looking into it.
I have read though researching into it that of all accounts it was slightly slower but had no problems outmanouvering the bf109.E
Heres a good link on the plane.

Dewointine D520 (http://www.parkerinfo.com/ap17.htm)

*S* Clover4

TheGozr
02-07-2004, 04:17 PM
Are they any in actual Working condition?

-GOZR
"TheMotorheads" All for One and One for All (http://www.french.themotorhead.com/themotorhead_fighters/)

MiloMorai
02-08-2004, 05:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by watteville:

The fact that right now France's government is a corrupted, old fashioned, inefficient old boys club, should not mask the fact that when it comes to high end design the french are pretty good; 580 kph on 830 hp is impressive; For info, a 109-E goes 560 kph with 1200 hp, and both planes are witin 100 kg the same weight.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

When was it ever not? But then govenments are always corrupt, from any country, it is just their degree of corruption.

ps. The French had some help with the Concorde.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif BTW, the only Concorde to crash was from France. Now if you want to see corruption and cover-up, see the crash investigation.



Long live the Horse Clans.

robban75
02-08-2004, 06:16 AM
THAT is one great looking fighter! I've never seen it nor heard of it before, but I'd like to know more about it! Is it avaliable as a modelkit 1/48 scale I wonder? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

http://members.chello.se/unni/Dora-9-3.JPG

When it comes to aircombat, I'd rather be lucky than good any day!

Insuber
02-08-2004, 09:48 AM
Beautiful plane, but the link says

Vitesse maxi : 558 km/h 5200 m.

Where did you find the 580 km/h info?

Regards,
Insuber

Insuber
02-08-2004, 09:57 AM
.. and speaking about Bugatti, have a look at this wonderful 1938 plane, with which the Italian genius Ettore Bugatti won the German race "Deutsche de La Muerthe" Cup...

http://www.bugattiaircraft.com/

http://www.bugattiaircraft.com/kalempa.htm

Isn't she beautiful? Italian genius and French engineering, wow!

Regards,
Insuber

tsisqua
02-08-2004, 10:29 AM
Tres bien, mais Je ne parle pas Le Francais.

Tsisqua

http://server5.uploadit.org/files/tsisqua-nedChristie.jpg
Tsalagi Asgaya Galvladi

Sunday_Delight
02-08-2004, 06:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by watteville:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by warweapon2:
BUT ITS FRENCH!!! :P<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So is Concorde, most helicopters, all multi hull F-1 sailboats, High speed trains, Bugatti, Hispano-Suiza, Hermes bags, La Cornue, Waterworks, Chateau-latour, I could go on and on.

The fact that right now France's government is a corrupted, old fashioned, inefficient old boys club, should not mask the fact that when it comes to high end design the french are pretty good; 580 kph on 830 hp is impressive; For info, a 109-E goes 560 kph with 1200 hp, and both planes are witin 100 kg the same weight.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Just as the fact that right now USA's government is a dangerous, ingorant and lying warmongers club should not mask that when it comes to mass production of weapons, USA is unbeatable.

(I forgot: Heil W.Bush!)

NimbusPlus
02-08-2004, 07:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MiloMorai:
When was it ever not? But then govenments are always corrupt, from any country, it is just their degree of corruption.

ps. The French had some help with the Concorde.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif BTW, the only Concorde to crash was from France. Now if you want to see corruption and cover-up, see the crash investigation.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Whaaat!? What the H...! I'm sick and tired to hear you guys always bahsing my country! If it weren't for France you guys would still be a British colony! Stop hijacking the thread, omg I can't believe you guys are so jealous of our freedom or what!

Hehe http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif just kiding http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif

FYI the Air France Concorde crash has its root in a debris that was left on the runway by a Continental DC-10, if I'm not mistaken. Still I agree there was a design vulnerability about the wheels. As to corruption and cover up during the investigation, this just doesn't make sense. I think everyone will agree that the French Bureau Enquete Accidents is most competent (one of the top world investigation body, according to what I've heard, along with the American NTSB). These guys are good.

Ah well, excuse the rambling.

And yes, the D520 was a beautiful plane. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif



http://ee.1asphost.com/julienag/il2_Z_SIG.jpg

Menthol_moose
02-08-2004, 08:32 PM
In breaking news

French ban D-day vets !!

http://www.sundaymirror.co.uk/news/content_objectid=13928696_method=full_siteid=10669 4_headline=-D-DAY-BANDINGS-name_page.html

They wonder why they are so unpopular ! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

http://simpsons.metropoliglobal.com/fotogramas/2f13/09.jpg

Eh, mates! What's the good word?

watteville
02-09-2004, 05:51 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Menthol_moose:
In breaking news

French ban D-day vets !!

http://www.sundaymirror.co.uk/news/content_objectid=13928696_method=full_siteid=10669 4_headline=-D-DAY-BANDINGS-name_page.html

Murdoch's is virulently anti Franch any story about France that appear in his newspapers and nowere else is yellow journalism.

Get your news elsewere or run the risk of being brainwashed to accept anything

Slush69
02-09-2004, 06:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Menthol_moose:
In breaking news

French ban D-day vets !!

http://www.sundaymirror.co.uk/news/content_objectid=13928696_method=full_siteid=10669 4_headline=-D-DAY-BANDINGS-name_page.html

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Sunday Mirror, eh?

Any article where the other side just gets called "The &lt;INSERT BAD GUY&gt;", like this article's "The French", should set off huge internal bias alarms.

Any halfdecent journalist would have tried to get both sides story, or at least a comment. This is nothing but a rather amateurish piece of slander.

cheers/slush

http://www.wilcks.dk/crap/Eurotrolls.gif

MiloMorai
02-09-2004, 07:26 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NimbusPlus:

Whaaat!? What the H...! I'm sick and tired to hear you guys always bahsing my country! If it weren't for France you guys would still be a British colony! Stop hijacking the thread, omg I can't believe you guys are so jealous of our freedom or what!

Hehe http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif just kiding http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif

FYI the Air France Concorde crash has its root in a debris that was left on the runway by a Continental DC-10, if I'm not mistaken. Still I agree there was a design vulnerability about the wheels. As to corruption and cover up during the investigation, this just doesn't make sense. I think everyone will agree that the French Bureau Enquete Accidents is most competent (one of the top world investigation body, according to what I've heard, along with the American NTSB). These guys are good.

Ah well, excuse the rambling.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes is rambling.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Tell me, why the 'French' would not let the British have access to the investigation. The Concorde is 1/2 British.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Air France is a French govenment company so can't say anything bad about the company because that will reflect on the government. Ex Concorde crew were ignored. Did you also know that it almost hit the a/c carrying the French president which was waiting to cross the runway.

If my country had put its foot down when the French were defeated we would not have the problems we have today with les habitants. They are like the spoilt child - the more they cry, the more they get. Oh ya, Le Grand Nez did not help matters with his 'Vive Quebec Libre'.



Long live the Horse Clans.

NimbusPlus
02-09-2004, 08:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MiloMorai:
Yes is rambling.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Tell me, why the 'French' would not let the British have access to the investigation. The Concorde is 1/2 British.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Air France is a French govenment company so can't say anything bad about the company because that will reflect on the government. Ex Concorde crew were ignored. Did you also know that it almost hit the a/c carrying the French president which was waiting to cross the runway.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Direct from the BEA final report about the Concorde crash (http://www.bea-fr.org/docspa/2000/f-sc000725a/pdf/f-sc000725a.pdf):

http://img20.photobucket.com/albums/v61/julienag/AF.jpg

Besides I doubt it very much that any government would get involved in the day-to-day management of air ops or maintenance of a national airline. At most, the government would act as an policy entity (decide/check broad strategy or "life-or-death" orientations for the company).

And regarding the airplane of Chirac almost hit, well what can I say? If that's true, it's a good thing it didn't happen. Not because that aircarft was carrying Chirac, but because more lives (any life) might have been lost.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>If my country had put its foot down when the French were defeated we would not have the problems we have today with les habitants. They are like the spoilt child - the more they cry, the more they get. Oh ya, Le Grand Nez did not help matters with his 'Vive Quebec Libre'.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hm? Blablabla. A little bit irrelevant, isn't it? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

http://ee.1asphost.com/julienag/il2_Z_SIG.jpg

watteville
02-09-2004, 08:38 AM
This is about AVIATION, French bashers and defender take it there http://www.miquelon.org/

Or even better yet let's create IL-2 online fights between French lovers and bashers, Dogfights or missions, if you are interested, have ideas want to host or join, leave me your names on IM, I'll do my best to organise some real good fights.

Thank you to all posters for interesting insights especially that Bugatti racer http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

And to finish I'd like to share what I like about the VG-33

Sexy fuselage a la DH Mosquito
Thin eliptic wing a la Spitfire
Cool tail design reminds me of F-4u Corsair
modern one piece canopy for 1939
Aristocratic Hispano V12
It's a democratic all wood construction by small mom and pop shops all over the country and not some big faceless corporation effort.

I like that it has been forgotten and had a sad story.

MiloMorai
02-09-2004, 09:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NimbusPlus:

Hm? Blablabla. A little bit irrelevant, isn't it? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not at all, for you claimed France helped liberate 'my' country.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif To bad, it was the continental French that were kicked out of 'my' country. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

As for a British colony, yes help liberating France, twice, from the Bosche went along way in giving 'my' country its own identity.

Believe what you want on the Concorde crash but the British did not have access to all info. Here is another little fact. The Concorde was overloaded and took-off down wind. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif The metal debris might or might not have cut the tire but the tire most likely would have blown anyway because of faulty maintainance - the wheel was wobbling on its axle because of missing spacers.



Long live the Horse Clans.

horseback
02-09-2004, 09:52 AM
I couldn't help seeing a resemblance to the Macchi C.202/205 lines, although, considering the timing, maybe it would be accurate to say the Macchis look like the VG-33.

Didn't the Polish pilots who joined the French AF after their country was taken over by the Germans fly a squadron of VG.33s? I also seem to recall an article referring to an example still existing in Finland, as well, although I don't think they saw any extended use there, unlike the Moranes.

Say what you will about the French fighters in terms of performance or production problems, I've always thought their camoflauge schemes were gorgeous. I'd welcome examples of French fighters and attack aircraft strictly for the eye candy value!

Cheers

horseback

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" -LTCOL Don Blakeslee, 4th FG CO, February 27th, 1944

Cold_Gambler
02-09-2004, 10:10 AM
Sorry MiloMorai (edit: I thought it was 'lil horse who'd posted) ... I'm afraid your understanding of Canadian history is quite incorrect.

The fact is that the English crown TRIED to impose British customs onto the francophones of Quebec by the Royal Proclamation of 1763. This lead to numerous revolts which the small English garrisons could not contain-

This report states it quite succinctly:
http://www.solon.org/Constitutions/Canada/English/PreConfederation/report_1766.html

?My Lords, it is evident that Two very principal sources of the Disorders in the province have been. 1st The attempt to carry on the Administration of Justice without the aid of the natives, not merely in new forms, but totally in an unknown tongue, by which means the partys Understood Nothing of what was pleaded or determined having neither Canadian Advocates or Sollicitors to Conduct their Causes, nor Canadian Jurors to give Verdicts, even in Causes between Canadians only, Nor Judges Conversant in the French Language to declare the Law, and to pronounce Judgement; This must cause the Real Mischiefs of Ignorance, oppression and Corruption, or else what is almost equal in Government to the mischiefs themselves, the suspicion and Imputation of them.

The second and great source of disorders was the Alarm taken at the Construction put upon his Majesty's Proclamation of Oct. 7th 1763. As if it were his Royal Intentions by his Judges and Officers in that Country, at once to abolish all the usages and Customs of Canada, with the rough hand of a Conqueror rather than with the true Spirit of a Lawful Sovereign, and not so much extend the protection and Benefit of his English Laws to His new subjects, by securing their Lives, Libertys and propertys with more certainty than former times, as to impose new, unnecessary and arbitrary Rules, especially in the Titles to Land, and in the modes of Decent Alienation and Settlement, which tend to confound and subvert rights, instead of supporting them."

Of course, the Quebec Act of 1774 did not put an end to the "dream" of assimilating the French population (ref: Lord Durham's report) but it was the first evidence of what (imho) makes Canada a great multicultural nation: the ability (born of necessity) to compromise.