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moksha
09-03-2004, 04:22 PM
Using crimea map, diving to a fixed point (point moved in editor to suit pitch ;-P ) from 6100m using udpspeed to log dives at various pitches.
I'm happy to mail logs from udpspeed to anyone who wants them.
Dive method was to start at 6100 m at 200kph TAS, push tick forwward to desired pitch and hold for dive.
In each case full fuel, full auto cem, no pitch adjustments.
When looking at log data I took sample from when
200kph ias reached as by then plane had settled into dive.
Took data from then til the shakes..(usually 800+ ias kph odd for dora 750ish for spit)

I was logging pitch, variometer, ias, altitide, azimuth plus others.

Aim was to see if in a normalish situation there are dive differences for plane types.

I've done less extensive tests for p47, a6m2 etc
and will follow up on these when I have 6-7 hours spare next...

Back to the tests:
I did 3+ tests for 22.5degs, 34.75 degs, 45 degs, 57.25 degs, 68.5 degs and 80+ degs (90 pitch being bloody hard to keep to..)

Being human (and you will see) the logs show variance in pitch & heading but these are consistent with me diving as I do in game-again my aim was to see if I could use/notice dive differences.

Here's a brief summary
Each dive was done at 0 throttle and 110%+Wep for dora and spit
(dora45 not 44..spit ixe not lf)

Brief summary:

Speed ias time to speed in secs difference (dora less spit)



approx kph dive angle throttle
22.5 deg 0
d9 ixe dif sec

200 0 0 0
300 9.25 10.75 1.5
400 19.25 23.25 4
500 30.75 36.5 5.75
600 42.5 51.75 9.25
700 54.75 77.75 23
800 69.75
900

22.5deg 110%
d9 ixe
200 0 0 0
300 6.5 6.5 0
400 13.25 13.25 0
500 20.75 21.5 0.75
600 29 30.75 1.75
700 38 42.75 4.75
800 49 58 9
900

34.75deg 0
d9 ixe
200 0 0 0
300 7.5 8.25 0.75
400 14.5 15.5 1
500 21.75 23.25 1.5
600 28.5 31.5 3
700 35.25 40.15 4.9
800 42.75 51 8.25
900

34.75deg 110%
d9 ixe
200 0 0 0
300 6 5.75 -0.25
400 11 10.75 -0.25
500 16.5 16.25 -0.25
600 22 22 0
700 27.5 28.75 1.25
800 33.5 36.5 3
900

45deg 0
d9 ixe
200 0 0 0
300 6.75 7.25 0.5
400 11.75 13.25 1.5
500 17.25 18.75 1.5
600 22.25 24.5 2.25
700 27.25 30.75 3.5
800 32.5 37.5 5
900

45deg 110%
d9 ixe
200 0 0 0
300 5.5 5.75 0.25
400 9.75 10 0.25
500 14 14.25 0.25
600 18.25 18.75 0.5
700 22.75 23.75 1
800 27.25 29 1.75
900

57.25deg 0
d9 ixe
200 0 0 0
300 5.75 6 0.25
400 10 10.75 0.75
500 14.5 15.25 0.75
600 18.5 20 1.5
700 22.5 24.75 2.25
800 26.5 29.75 3.25
900

57.25deg 110%
d9 ixe
200 0 0 0
300 5.25 5 -0.25
400 8.75 8.5 -0.25
500 12.25 12.25 0
600 15.75 16 0.25
700 19.5 20 0.5
800 23 24 1
900

68.5deg 0
d9 ixe
200 0 0 0
300 5.5 5.75 0.25
400 9.5 10.25 0.75
500 13.25 14.25 1
600 17 18.5 1.5
700 20.75 22.5 1.75
800 24.25 27.75 3.5
900 28.25

68.5deg 110%
d9 ixe
200 0 0 0
300 5 5 0
400 8.5 8.25 -0.25
500 11.75 11.75 0
600 14.75 15.25 0.5
700 18 18.75 0.75
800 21.25 22.25 1
900 24.75

80+deg 0
d9 ixe
200 0 0 0
300 5.5 6 0.5
400 9.5 10 0.5
500 13.25 14 0.75
600 16.5 17.75 1.25
700 20 21.25 1.25
800 23.25 25 1.75
900

80+deg 110%
d9 ixe
200 0 0 0
300 4 5 1
400 8.5 8.25 -0.25
500 11.5 11.5 0
600 14.75 14.5 -0.25
700 17.5 17.75 0.25
800 20.5 21 0.5
900 23.5

NB the udpspeed log is too large to post here but more than happy to mail if anyone interested-includes TAS conversion and distance travelled vertical, horizonal and actual (hypoteneuse..)

moksha
09-03-2004, 04:22 PM
Using crimea map, diving to a fixed point (point moved in editor to suit pitch ;-P ) from 6100m using udpspeed to log dives at various pitches.
I'm happy to mail logs from udpspeed to anyone who wants them.
Dive method was to start at 6100 m at 200kph TAS, push tick forwward to desired pitch and hold for dive.
In each case full fuel, full auto cem, no pitch adjustments.
When looking at log data I took sample from when
200kph ias reached as by then plane had settled into dive.
Took data from then til the shakes..(usually 800+ ias kph odd for dora 750ish for spit)

I was logging pitch, variometer, ias, altitide, azimuth plus others.

Aim was to see if in a normalish situation there are dive differences for plane types.

I've done less extensive tests for p47, a6m2 etc
and will follow up on these when I have 6-7 hours spare next...

Back to the tests:
I did 3+ tests for 22.5degs, 34.75 degs, 45 degs, 57.25 degs, 68.5 degs and 80+ degs (90 pitch being bloody hard to keep to..)

Being human (and you will see) the logs show variance in pitch & heading but these are consistent with me diving as I do in game-again my aim was to see if I could use/notice dive differences.

Here's a brief summary
Each dive was done at 0 throttle and 110%+Wep for dora and spit
(dora45 not 44..spit ixe not lf)

Brief summary:

Speed ias time to speed in secs difference (dora less spit)



approx kph dive angle throttle
22.5 deg 0
d9 ixe dif sec

200 0 0 0
300 9.25 10.75 1.5
400 19.25 23.25 4
500 30.75 36.5 5.75
600 42.5 51.75 9.25
700 54.75 77.75 23
800 69.75
900

22.5deg 110%
d9 ixe
200 0 0 0
300 6.5 6.5 0
400 13.25 13.25 0
500 20.75 21.5 0.75
600 29 30.75 1.75
700 38 42.75 4.75
800 49 58 9
900

34.75deg 0
d9 ixe
200 0 0 0
300 7.5 8.25 0.75
400 14.5 15.5 1
500 21.75 23.25 1.5
600 28.5 31.5 3
700 35.25 40.15 4.9
800 42.75 51 8.25
900

34.75deg 110%
d9 ixe
200 0 0 0
300 6 5.75 -0.25
400 11 10.75 -0.25
500 16.5 16.25 -0.25
600 22 22 0
700 27.5 28.75 1.25
800 33.5 36.5 3
900

45deg 0
d9 ixe
200 0 0 0
300 6.75 7.25 0.5
400 11.75 13.25 1.5
500 17.25 18.75 1.5
600 22.25 24.5 2.25
700 27.25 30.75 3.5
800 32.5 37.5 5
900

45deg 110%
d9 ixe
200 0 0 0
300 5.5 5.75 0.25
400 9.75 10 0.25
500 14 14.25 0.25
600 18.25 18.75 0.5
700 22.75 23.75 1
800 27.25 29 1.75
900

57.25deg 0
d9 ixe
200 0 0 0
300 5.75 6 0.25
400 10 10.75 0.75
500 14.5 15.25 0.75
600 18.5 20 1.5
700 22.5 24.75 2.25
800 26.5 29.75 3.25
900

57.25deg 110%
d9 ixe
200 0 0 0
300 5.25 5 -0.25
400 8.75 8.5 -0.25
500 12.25 12.25 0
600 15.75 16 0.25
700 19.5 20 0.5
800 23 24 1
900

68.5deg 0
d9 ixe
200 0 0 0
300 5.5 5.75 0.25
400 9.5 10.25 0.75
500 13.25 14.25 1
600 17 18.5 1.5
700 20.75 22.5 1.75
800 24.25 27.75 3.5
900 28.25

68.5deg 110%
d9 ixe
200 0 0 0
300 5 5 0
400 8.5 8.25 -0.25
500 11.75 11.75 0
600 14.75 15.25 0.5
700 18 18.75 0.75
800 21.25 22.25 1
900 24.75

80+deg 0
d9 ixe
200 0 0 0
300 5.5 6 0.5
400 9.5 10 0.5
500 13.25 14 0.75
600 16.5 17.75 1.25
700 20 21.25 1.25
800 23.25 25 1.75
900

80+deg 110%
d9 ixe
200 0 0 0
300 4 5 1
400 8.5 8.25 -0.25
500 11.5 11.5 0
600 14.75 14.5 -0.25
700 17.5 17.75 0.25
800 20.5 21 0.5
900 23.5

NB the udpspeed log is too large to post here but more than happy to mail if anyone interested-includes TAS conversion and distance travelled vertical, horizonal and actual (hypoteneuse..)

moksha
09-03-2004, 04:25 PM
bolx format apologies--looked lovely when previewed....

faustnik
09-03-2004, 04:32 PM
Moksha,

So, the shallower the dive the greater the dive acceleration difference?

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/mdegnan/_images/FaustSig
www.7Jg77.com (http://www.7jg77.com)
CWoS FB forum. More Cheese, Less Whine. (http://www.acompletewasteofspace.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=31)

moksha
09-03-2004, 04:34 PM
yeah, looks like it-gravity taking over?

moksha
09-03-2004, 04:39 PM
Will post more on cwos perhaps but the udpspeed and udpgraph are a1 must haves IMo-you can use as a little display to show TAS, pitch etc or any instruments you can't see behind control columns..(no extra gunsight ;-) )
And it has an e summary.
There a link on simhq showing how to install and set up and where to download.

Doing these dive tests was a revelation-I always knew I was sloppy but seeing the pitch flop about was worrying when it looked by eye as if I was quite steady..and when pitch sorted I was rolling..or changing bearing ;-) that's why tests are from samples of best runs!

Ss!

moksha
09-03-2004, 04:42 PM
aLSO - Starting dive or any manouvre in various ways ie half roll followed by dive-you can see the enrgey you save/lose compared with say pushing the stick forwards..
Dives with trim more efficient ..(We knew that but figures bear it out on udpgraph)
With CEM and trim there are loads of variable but I'm looking at some "best"/good setting for various pitches..

moksha
09-03-2004, 04:46 PM
LOL

Also take on board what Tagert and WWMax have been saying - on the udpgraph I got a function to plot the distance travelled in a dive.
Doing two dives in two planes and looking at these distances
the diff giving the separation shows a VERY notciable difference when measured in meters!
(Proportional at a glance to time difference but
brings it home better IMO). Haven't got anywhere to host or would link but it's worth getting udpgraph to use test these personally..
Watch the AI in tracks (AI vs AI) using magic flight model! (I think, am looking at this..)

faustnik
09-03-2004, 05:16 PM
Thanks Moksha! That is VERY useful information! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/mdegnan/_images/FaustSig
www.7Jg77.com (http://www.7jg77.com)
CWoS FB forum. More Cheese, Less Whine. (http://www.acompletewasteofspace.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=31)

TAGERT.
09-03-2004, 05:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by moksha:
Using crimea map, diving to a fixed point (point moved in editor to suit pitch ;-P ) from 6100m using udpspeed to log dives at various pitches.
I'm happy to mail logs from udpspeed to anyone who wants them.
Dive method was to start at 6100 m at 200kph TAS, push tick forwward to desired pitch and hold for dive.
In each case full fuel, full auto cem, no pitch adjustments.
When looking at log data I took sample from when
200kph ias reached as by then plane had settled into dive.
Took data from then til the shakes..(usually 800+ ias kph odd for dora 750ish for spit)

I was logging pitch, variometer, ias, altitide, azimuth plus others.

Aim was to see if in a normalish situation there are dive differences for plane types.

I've done less extensive tests for p47, a6m2 etc
and will follow up on these when I have 6-7 hours spare next...

Back to the tests:
I did 3+ tests for 22.5degs, 34.75 degs, 45 degs, 57.25 degs, 68.5 degs and 80+ degs (90 pitch being bloody hard to keep to..)

Being human (and you will see) the logs show variance in pitch & heading but these are consistent with me diving as I do in game-again my aim was to see if I could use/notice dive differences.

Here's a brief summary
Each dive was done at 0 throttle and 110%+Wep for dora and spit
(dora45 not 44..spit ixe not lf)

Brief summary:

Speed ias time to speed in secs difference (dora less spit)



approx kph dive angle throttle
22.5 deg 0
d9 ixe dif sec

200 0 0 0
300 9.25 10.75 1.5
400 19.25 23.25 4
500 30.75 36.5 5.75
600 42.5 51.75 9.25
700 54.75 77.75 23
800 69.75
900

22.5deg 110%
d9 ixe
200 0 0 0
300 6.5 6.5 0
400 13.25 13.25 0
500 20.75 21.5 0.75
600 29 30.75 1.75
700 38 42.75 4.75
800 49 58 9
900

34.75deg 0
d9 ixe
200 0 0 0
300 7.5 8.25 0.75
400 14.5 15.5 1
500 21.75 23.25 1.5
600 28.5 31.5 3
700 35.25 40.15 4.9
800 42.75 51 8.25
900

34.75deg 110%
d9 ixe
200 0 0 0
300 6 5.75 -0.25
400 11 10.75 -0.25
500 16.5 16.25 -0.25
600 22 22 0
700 27.5 28.75 1.25
800 33.5 36.5 3
900

45deg 0
d9 ixe
200 0 0 0
300 6.75 7.25 0.5
400 11.75 13.25 1.5
500 17.25 18.75 1.5
600 22.25 24.5 2.25
700 27.25 30.75 3.5
800 32.5 37.5 5
900

45deg 110%
d9 ixe
200 0 0 0
300 5.5 5.75 0.25
400 9.75 10 0.25
500 14 14.25 0.25
600 18.25 18.75 0.5
700 22.75 23.75 1
800 27.25 29 1.75
900

57.25deg 0
d9 ixe
200 0 0 0
300 5.75 6 0.25
400 10 10.75 0.75
500 14.5 15.25 0.75
600 18.5 20 1.5
700 22.5 24.75 2.25
800 26.5 29.75 3.25
900

57.25deg 110%
d9 ixe
200 0 0 0
300 5.25 5 -0.25
400 8.75 8.5 -0.25
500 12.25 12.25 0
600 15.75 16 0.25
700 19.5 20 0.5
800 23 24 1
900

68.5deg 0
d9 ixe
200 0 0 0
300 5.5 5.75 0.25
400 9.5 10.25 0.75
500 13.25 14.25 1
600 17 18.5 1.5
700 20.75 22.5 1.75
800 24.25 27.75 3.5
900 28.25

68.5deg 110%
d9 ixe
200 0 0 0
300 5 5 0
400 8.5 8.25 -0.25
500 11.75 11.75 0
600 14.75 15.25 0.5
700 18 18.75 0.75
800 21.25 22.25 1
900 24.75

80+deg 0
d9 ixe
200 0 0 0
300 5.5 6 0.5
400 9.5 10 0.5
500 13.25 14 0.75
600 16.5 17.75 1.25
700 20 21.25 1.25
800 23.25 25 1.75
900

80+deg 110%
d9 ixe
200 0 0 0
300 4 5 1
400 8.5 8.25 -0.25
500 11.5 11.5 0
600 14.75 14.5 -0.25
700 17.5 17.75 0.25
800 20.5 21 0.5
900 23.5

NB the udpspeed log is too large to post here but more than happy to mail if anyone interested-includes TAS conversion and distance travelled vertical, horizonal and actual (hypoteneuse..)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Got Track?

http://www.geocities.com/grantsenn/kickme.jpg
TAGERT

WWMaxGunz
09-03-2004, 05:50 PM
Definite trend as dive angle increases. Highly reccomend comparing more
dissimilar planes just to highlight game physics, like Hurricane I and a late
war powerhouse.

Most important elements I can think of; drag, mass, power, in that order.
And flying of course! It is easy to see how much difference power makes with
those datum.

Collecting data, my PC stutters. I didn't know how bad till I started logging
the in-game clock and then I found it is terrible. My sad. Internet Security
and Anti-Virus use a lot of resources so I need to get another 512M RAM and find
a way to not have them instead of just disable. But they are also needed for
net, I get intrusions from nowhere so I ^LIKE^ them too much to uninstall.

Try checking a very short test if you are collecting data to see how collector
clock matches to game time passing by.

Game time format appears to be HH.MMSSSSSSS as a double float value.


Neal

JaBo_HH--Gotcha
09-03-2004, 07:51 PM
Correct me in case I didn't get it, but can it be that with the eception of the 22,5 degrees dive test all powered tests result in a difference of maximum 3 seconds ?
So in unpowered dives we have DIFFERENCES which are pronounced whereas in powered dives we don'T ?
odd to say the least.
I've also made tests with dive-angle of 20? (powered) and had a maximum difference of 1 second at 700km/h.(which at first glance coincede with my tracks).

Again ! Another soul giving it's time on the topic. !S! Welcome aboard http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://www.g-c-p.de/sigbib/hh/gotcha.jpg

moksha
09-04-2004, 02:03 AM
Hi,

no tracks, didn't want or need them, just logs-which you're welcome to.

The timer compares well-I have nothing running in the background that's not system, so it's aep and udpgraph or aep and udpspeed (not both).

On logs you can see timer's not exact as there is the odd stutter. (Three in 5000 odd lines of log IIRC).

Gotcha one route to check with what you ask (dive diffs under power) is various throttle settings-at first glance seems to suggest to me
that with no throttle we have a set of forces in action the pale/shift in significance to the forces engaged when max engine hp is applied at horizontal-to shallow dive.

In steep dives gravity becomes first comparable then greater than engine hp as an accellerating force.



I put the freefall/unpowered dives in as a yardstick-sort of minimum variables position but
will redo these comparisons next with prop pitch settings varied, see what difference this makes at idle.

Then into varying pitch or setting one pitch for full throttle.



P51D, P38L, A6M2 and perhaps gladiator will be included next..


NB the gload readout. Is this g the pilot feels or airframe stress? Or stress on a particular part of the airframe (wingroots?)

[This message was edited by moksha on Sat September 04 2004 at 01:12 AM.]

WWMaxGunz
09-04-2004, 08:35 AM
Moksha, if you make the tracks then you can collect data in playback, even change
what data values you collect to maybe look at slip, nose pitch or prop, I dunno.

Gotcha, the difference in power full vs idle is that at idle the prop is a big
source of drag. From all I've read on good sources a spinning prop with no power
behind it is the same as a flat disk the size of the prop circle on the front of
the plane. At very high speeds well beyond level maximum, the prop is the same
way.


Neal

TAGERT.
09-04-2004, 10:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by moksha:
Hi,

no tracks, didn't want or need them, just logs-which you're welcome to.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>That is too bad really.. Tracks contain all the variables.. So unless your logging all the DeviceLink variables your log file wont contain all the variables... So if you had the track someone could look at a different variable... That and your log file will most likly not have the same format as mine! That is you may spit out velocity then engine temp.. I may do just the opposite.. Thus I can not use my excel template.. But if I had your track file I could collect data to my format.

I also noticed that you said your log files are very large.. So here is another good reason for track files.. For some reason when you play back the track file the log file is much smaller than when you record it as you fly! When you collect log files while your flying with UDPSpeed it collects the data at the rate you have set in the UDPSpeed.ini file.. At least it trys to.. Not 100% sure why that is yet.. Just something I noticed.

And the last good reason that I can think of is if your logging data as you fly the mission your collect data while your trying to get the test set up.. A lot of time can pass getting that right.. Where as with the track file you can set it to a button on your joystick to start/stop recording.. So, start the mission, fly around until you get things set up.. when ready press the joystick button to start recording and when your done press it again.

This is why I prefer track files over real time log files. I highly recommend you just fly the mission, save the track, then collect log files when you play the track back. Everybody here has the ability to play a track back.. But not everybody here as the tools to make sense out of the log files.. That and if you do find a bug you can send the track file to Oleg.. That and nobody can accuse you of editing the log file when you have the track file!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by moksha:
The timer compares well-I have nothing running in the background that's not system, so it's aep and udpgraph or aep and udpspeed (not both).

On logs you can see timer's not exact as there is the odd stutter. (Three in 5000 odd lines of log IIRC).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>On mine system it is very steady.. But I have noticed in other peoples track files it jumps around a lot.. So that points the finger back at aep not UDPGraph or UDPSpeed.. Because in those tracks they were not running it.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by moksha:
Gotcha one route to check with what you ask (dive diffs under power) is various throttle settings-at first glance seems to suggest to me that with no throttle we have a set of forces in action the pale/shift in significance to the forces engaged when max engine hp is applied at horizontal-to shallow dive.

In steep dives gravity becomes first comparable then greater than engine hp as an accellerating force.

I put the freefall/unpowered dives in as a yardstick-sort of minimum variables position but
will redo these comparisons next with prop pitch settings varied, see what difference this makes at idle.

Then into varying pitch or setting one pitch for full throttle.

P51D, P38L, A6M2 and perhaps gladiator will be included next..

NB the gload readout. Is this g the pilot feels or airframe stress? Or stress on a particular part of the airframe (wingroots?)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Sounds neat.. I just hope you save the track files!

http://www.geocities.com/grantsenn/kickme.jpg
TAGERT

moksha
09-04-2004, 04:41 PM
Tagert - thanks for your reasoning re tracks-I'll save them!

WW-Should the prop pitch at engine idle have an effect on acceleration? If so is it worth testing ?

JaBo_HH--Gotcha
09-05-2004, 04:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Gotcha, the difference in power full vs idle is that at idle the prop is a big
source of drag. From all I've read on good sources a spinning prop with no power
behind it is the same as a flat disk the size of the prop circle on the front of
the plane. At very high speeds well beyond level maximum, the prop is the same
way.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know that ! I just commented that without using power we see differences in accelrataion. With power on we don't see them.
That's odd isn't it ?
So when we idle the power, then drag seems to differ for every plane but as soon as you power up the accelaration for every plane seems to be the same.... Why ?
I mean look at all the tested planes... All the same ? All producing proportional excess thrust ?... unlikely...

http://www.g-c-p.de/sigbib/hh/gotcha.jpg

TAGERT.
09-05-2004, 10:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JaBo_HH--Gotcha:
I know that ! I just commented that without using power we see differences in acceleration. With power on we don't see them.
That's odd isn't it ?
So when we idle the power, then drag seems to differ for every plane but as soon as you power up the acceleration for every plane seems to be the same.... Why ?
I mean look at all the tested planes... All the same ? All producing proportional excess thrust ?... unlikely...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I recently did a dive test between the P47D-27 and the Bf109G-6. Both were with power on and there was a considerable difference in acceleration. Which is evident in the slopes of the velocity curves (acceleration).

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=63110913&m=167005207

I recently added a plot that shows the SEPARATION between the two.. That is to say the increase in DISTANCE between the two aircraft as time passes.

After 10 seconds the P47D-27 is about 400ft in front of the Bf109G-6
After 20 seconds the P47D-27 is about 700ft in front of the Bf109G-6
After 30 seconds the P47D-27 is about 1100ft in front of the Bf109G-6
After 40 seconds the P47D-27 is about 1800ft in front of the Bf109G-6

All the way out to 70 seconds where the P47D-27 is about 4900ft un front of the Bf109G-6

You should really check it out sometime! I think it will help you *see* that different airplanes do indeed have different accelerations.. I also did the test wtih a Fw190 and it is simular to the P47 but there is still a difference.

http://www.geocities.com/grantsenn/kickme.jpg
TAGERT

moksha
09-05-2004, 01:26 PM
Tagert,
I was wondering if I could beg some help-
I'm going to redo these dive tests with a log and a track save for each.
I only have excel at work which is a pain so if I passed you the track files would you be willing/have time to put them through your template?
I'm aiming to do each dive 5 times, so far got
5 dives each for spit and dora at 22.5 degs max throttle +wep.
Alternatively could I have a copy of your template?-I am rubbish with excel, I could then process the tracks logs myself in one go at work.

rgds

TAGERT.
09-05-2004, 01:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by moksha:
Tagert,
I was wondering if I could beg some help-
I'm going to redo these dive tests with a log and a track save for each.
I only have excel at work which is a pain so if I passed you the track files would you be willing/have time to put them through your template? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Sure.. no problem! Might take me a few days but I could do it!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by moksha:
I'm aiming to do each dive 5 times, so far got
5 dives each for spit and dora at 22.5 degs max throttle +wep.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Cool.. how are you verifying the dive angle during the test? Are you using the UDPSpeed pitch display or just eyeballing it?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by moksha:
Alternatively could I have a copy of your template?-I am rubbish with excel, I could then process the tracks logs myself in one go at work.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I plan to upload it once I get it a little more generalized.. Bad thing is my template also depends on the order your save things to the log file.. I know there is a way to make that so it does not mater by reading the LABEL.. But then we would all have to be using the same labels! But, in the mean time I dont mind doing it for you.

http://www.geocities.com/grantsenn/kickme.jpg
TAGERT

moksha
09-05-2004, 02:46 PM
Tagert,
fantastic-big thanks.
Before the various udp programs I did tests eyeballing it-diving to a fixed spot.
I tried that for comparison after reading your post-was hopeless when viewed the track!
But these use udpspeed. With no trim (left out to avoid more variables) it's bloody hard staying within 1 deg either side of target pitch with no roll or other deviations, especially in some of the more twitchy/less stable planes-but udpspeed pitch readout helps a lot, especially with timing set at 250ms or quicker.
I'm looking to do 10 or so tests a day at the moment (any more and I get vertigo ;-P)-the tracks look to be around 70kb each, best to mail them to you?

PS not sure if it matters but an observation-when replaying tracks I've run udpspeed to check timing blips etc - the timing doesn't pick up at the same spot. The game time is constant but udp speed kicks in at fractionally different times. Can't think where this matters..;-)

TAGERT.
09-05-2004, 03:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by moksha:
Tagert,
fantastic-big thanks.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>NP!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by moksha:
Before the various udp programs I did tests eyeballing it-diving to a fixed spot.
I tried that for comparison after reading your post-was hopeless when viewed the track!
But these use udpspeed. With no trim (left out to avoid more variables) it's bloody hard staying within 1 deg either side of target pitch with no roll or other deviations, especially in some of the more twitchy/less stable planes-but udpspeed pitch readout helps a lot, especially with timing set at 250ms or quicker. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yup! It aint easy.. So I know eyeballing has to be as hard if not harder.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by moksha:
I'm looking to do 10 or so tests a day at the moment (any more and I get vertigo ;-P)-the tracks look to be around 70kb each, best to mail them to you?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>DOH! I allmost forgot! Make your you use the *.ntrk and not the *.trk format!! It is bigger but has all the data in it.. Where as the *.trk file dont!! The *.trk files only contain your stick inputs and are prone to errors when running on one pc vs. another.. And sometimes even on the same pc! That and the *.trk files dont work from one version to the next.. So if a patch comes out all your work would not be able to be ported over to the new version!!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by moksha:
PS not sure if it matters but an observation-when replaying tracks I've run udpspeed to check timing blips etc - the timing doesn't pick up at the same spot. The game time is constant but udp speed kicks in at fractionally different times. Can't think where this matters..;-)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Im still not sure about that myself.. In my tracks the tod time delta from one sample to the next is pretty rock steady.. But on other peoples tracks I have looked at it varys alot.. But.. if necessary I can plot the data using the tod or not.. And I can tell by looking at the data if it is due to udp lag.

Let me know when your ready to send them.. You do have ZIP right? That will make them alot smaller to send!

http://www.geocities.com/grantsenn/kickme.jpg
TAGERT

moksha
09-05-2004, 03:41 PM
Tagert,
excellent thanks again-
2 (newbie!) questions
how to save as ntrk as opposed to trk
and
If already .trk can they be converted?

Off to have a look, tracks at moment are .trk saves.

rgds

PS yes I have winzip!

moksha
09-05-2004, 04:00 PM
D'oh,
put it down to lack of sleep..ignore the query re trk/ntrk..sorted
;-)

I've been saving as .trk's so i'll re do first tests tomorrow pm and save as ntrk's!

S!

WWMaxGunz
09-05-2004, 04:09 PM
Weird. Oleg doesn't want .ntrks because he says they don't have all the data.
Perhaps it's about toggles and what happened before an ntrk would be recorded.

For ntrks, if I remember, you set up a key to start recording and one to stop.

Finding out that the difference of UDPSpeed collect time and game time seems
to be the difference of when the data collection process starts (UDPSpeed sends
a request to FB) and when FB responds. It's very small I am finding and has no
real bearing on collection, but good to use just in case. Stutter only seems to
affect what I see and not the action of the game code.

Tagert, I have a 2 Edit window proggie working. One reads in the data file and
you can clip out what you don't want translated. Yeah, people can "cheat" but
then that's easily done with NotePad or WordPad so I left the Write permission
on. Window #2 is to the right. Hit 'Run' and a line by line match comes up.
Right now all it does is check itself (had a beotch of a time with the alpha to
float routines making daggone system exceptions even with the straight C atof()
so a while ago I rolled my own and they work fine.
Got to change the parser as right now it is depending on data in the right order
and header-letters ? #.# C: #.# V: #.# A: #.# S: #.#. Want that to be flexible
via ini at least as to order.
Haven't been able to set up UDPSpeed ini blocks for extra instruments. All I want
is the text not the guages. Don't know how to add extra collection folders yet.
Simple point to point with data by time will be out soon and on my homepage. It
depends on getting the flex into the input spec and how long it takes to recover
from tomorrow and tuesday.

Neal

TAGERT.
09-05-2004, 04:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by moksha:
D'oh,
put it down to lack of sleep..ignore the query re trk/ntrk..sorted
;-)

I've been saving as .trk's so i'll re do first tests tomorrow pm and save as ntrk's!

S!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I have not tried it.. But maybe during the play back of a .trk you can save a .ntrk using the quick save? There is an option to make a quicksave to a .ntrk via a joystick button.. I forget what it is called.. But it is kind of like a gun cameara option.. it will save it to a default file name that it displays for a few seonds then fades.

http://www.geocities.com/grantsenn/kickme.jpg
TAGERT

TAGERT.
09-05-2004, 04:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
Weird. Oleg doesn't want .ntrks because he says they don't have all the data. Perhaps it's about toggles and what happened before an ntrk would be recorded.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Well I'm not sure what it was Oleg was referring to when he said data so I wont guess at that.. But a .trk does contain the user inputs (joystick) and from what I can tell basically reflys the game for you.. I find it hard to belive it would work at all.. They much not make any used of random numbers for AI.. Which means the AI will allays respond the same way to a give situation.. Which kind of sucks! So in that since a .trk does have the user input data that a .ntrk does not.. The .ntrk basically has all the end results from the calculations record.. So even if the FM changes due to a patch the .ntrk will still play back correctly, in that it is not calculating anything new.. Where as with the .trk file it would be different because it has to calculate the results due to the user inputs all over again.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
For ntrks, if I remember, you set up a key to start recording and one to stop.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>That is what I do.. But I could swore even in the past if I did the esc to menu and pressed the start recording it too was a .ntrk. I personally have never made a .trk file.. I have only look at them from other people

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
Finding out that the difference of UDPSpeed collect time and game time seems
to be the difference of when the data collection process starts (UDPSpeed sends
a request to FB) and when FB responds. It's very small I am finding and has no
real bearing on collection, but good to use just in case. Stutter only seems to
affect what I see and not the action of the game code. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes.. but there is a miss mach sometimes.. I have done it both ways and when I use the tod time I get the pause in data sometimes.. It is as if the data you get is relative to the time of request.. But can be delayed in tod time.. As if it collected all the data.. then paused and collected the time stamp (tod). Eitherway it is pretty easy to spot in velocity curves.. But harder to spot in things like the pitch that jump around a lot.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
Tagert, I have a 2 Edit window proggie working. One reads in the data file and
you can clip out what you don't want translated. Yeah, people can "cheat" but
then that's easily done with NotePad or WordPad so I left the Write permission
on. Window #2 is to the right. Hit 'Run' and a line by line match comes up.
Right now all it does is check itself (had a beotch of a time with the alpha to
float routines making daggone system exceptions even with the straight C atof()
so a while ago I rolled my own and they work fine.
Got to change the parser as right now it is depending on data in the right order
and header-letters ? #.# C: #.# V: #.# A: #.# S: #.#. Want that to be flexible
via ini at least as to order. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I have a UDP program up and running right now.. I'm toggling lights and reading back data and such.. At this point.. I think I'm going to dump the data to a txt file where the first row will have the column headings.. And I think I'm going to just use the DeviceLink get/set numbers there.. Then the next row will be my ASCII text description of those numbers, then the next and all following rows will be the data. At least with that someone could just search the 1st row for the DeviceLink number they want.. Then use mine or there own discption for it.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
Haven't been able to set up UDPSpeed ini blocks for extra instruments. All I want
is the text not the guages. Don't know how to add extra collection folders yet.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That is actually pretty easy! Here is the DIRECTORY structure I used..
<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">
01_048_instrument_pitch
02_040_instrument_altimeter
03_030_instrument_speedometer_indicated
04_086_ctrl_elevator
05_092_ctrl_prop_pitch
06_064_instrument_rpm
xx_032_instrument_variometer
xx_034_instrument_slip
xx_036_instrument_turn
xx_038_instrument_angular_speed
xx_042_instrument_azimuth
xx_044_instrument_beacon_azimuth
xx_050_instrument_fuel
xx_052_instrument_overload
xx_054_instrument_shake_level
xx_066_instrument_manifold
xx_068_instrument_temp_oilin
xx_070_instrument_temp_oilout
xx_072_instrument_temp_water
xx_074_instrument_temp_cylinders
xx_080_ctrl_power
xx_082_ctrl_flaps
xx_084_ctrl_aileron
xx_088_ctrl_rudder
xx_094_ctrl_aileron_trim
xx_096_ctrl_elevator_trim
xx_098_ctrl_rudder_trim
xx_490_undoc_ENERGY
xx_491_undoc_ENERGY
xx_492_undoc_ENERGY
</pre>
Note that the order that the DIRECTORY sorts is how the data sorts in the log file. I wanted pitch to be the first thing in the log (other than the defaults) so I started the dir name with "01_"

As long as your order is the same we could share log files.. Also note that I used the DeviceLink number in there too, this is about the only standard we got.. Followed by my descriptions.

As for guages.. I don't use the *.bmp guages.. Just the LED text read out types.. And here is all you need in each directory for that to work

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">
[Main]
Prefix=PITCH:
ArrowCounter=1
AddPanel=0
Visible=1
RequestString=/48
PosX=243
PosY=372
Mode=1

[Arrow1]
DataIndex=48
</pre>

This is the contents of my G48.ini file that is in the "01_048_instrument_pitch" directory.. UDPSpeed does not care what the name of the ini file is.. Again I just used the DeviceLink number 48 (where G is for get). You can have as many ini files per dir too.. The only thing you have to change in this for the other directory is these two things

RequestString=/48
DataIndex=48

And for the most part they have to match.. I noticed that in the energy directory is has a miss match.. Don't know why yet.. But oh well.

The last thing you would want to change in here is the Visible option.. If you want the gauge displayed or not. I only display some of them.. But I log all of them.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
Simple point to point with data by time will be out soon and on my homepage. It
depends on getting the flex into the input spec and how long it takes to recover
from tomorrow and tuesday.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Roger! Looking forward to it!

http://www.geocities.com/grantsenn/kickme.jpg
TAGERT

moksha
09-05-2004, 05:11 PM
One neat thing you can do is have an instance of udpspeed for each setup you use a lot-saves editing. I have one for lw, one for jets, one for allied and one for dive tests..just plonk the exe and conf ini in a named folder, with named instrument folders.

I don't use the pribor/dials just leds but was wondering if the part of the ini file where angles are set for each instrument readout could be manipulated to give functions-as there can be up to 50 dials in a single instrument readout (clumsy but if possible might make up for not being able to write/use functions in udpspeed as you can in udpgraph ie a TAS readout worked from IAS call) Ie could use a dial combo of alt and ias to give tas readout-maybe a non linear scale on the dial readout.

moksha
09-05-2004, 05:18 PM
Then again if I want TAS I use udpgraph, if I want TAs in data log just add an excel column..
Off to bed..

WWMaxGunz
09-05-2004, 10:39 PM
Thanks a-much for the ini example, Tagert! I *needed* that!

Think I'll do a super-simple semi-accurate straight-line flight distance renderer.
Can you guess? It involves figuring TAS and then average speeds. Not super
accurate but not terribly inaccurate either, I think. hehehe


Neal