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View Full Version : Best stick for carpaltunal/ergonomics?



tmdgm1
02-07-2004, 05:12 PM
I have early carpaltunal symdrome, but love flight sims. What is the best stick for proper ergonomics on the wrist (I know, I should just stop playing FB, but it's a sickness)?

I am currently using CH 568 combatstick with CH pro pedals. The stick is ok, but I've heard Saitek's are better when it comes to ergonomics and sore wrists. I was thinking of the cyborg USB gold or cyborg Evo. Any comments on those? Using with pro pedals?

Any other suggestions greatly appreciated.

tmdgm1
02-07-2004, 05:12 PM
I have early carpaltunal symdrome, but love flight sims. What is the best stick for proper ergonomics on the wrist (I know, I should just stop playing FB, but it's a sickness)?

I am currently using CH 568 combatstick with CH pro pedals. The stick is ok, but I've heard Saitek's are better when it comes to ergonomics and sore wrists. I was thinking of the cyborg USB gold or cyborg Evo. Any comments on those? Using with pro pedals?

Any other suggestions greatly appreciated.

Hunter82
02-07-2004, 05:26 PM
I placed my Cougar into early retirment due to hand strain. MS FFB2 did not fit my hand properly and caused lower wrist pain. The Evo or Cyborg are nice for adjustment possibilities but not durable enough for me. I finally just settled on a cordless Freedom 2.4 from Logitech. The best thing about it is it's very comfortable for me and takes most of the wrist pain away. Also since it's cordless you can position yourself to what is most comfortable for you.

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VW-IceFire
02-07-2004, 06:27 PM
Work on reducing the strain through a nice seat and line your wrists up with whatever your using. I find that keyboard/mouse stuff really kills me but the joystick is no problem...I guess it depends on hand size (I have a MS Precision 2 which fits nicely).

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BfHeFwMe
02-07-2004, 06:31 PM
Nothings going to help until you learn to get your sticks off the desktop.

You need to get it down close to the level they put the real things, they did that for a reason you know.

Woof603
02-07-2004, 09:07 PM
Go to the local gym and get a trainer or someone knowledgeable to show you the correct way to do wrist curls, both positive and negative. Start with light weights and work up over time. It's worked very well for me. No more problems with either mouse or CH combat stick.

http://www.spaads.org/denmark/spsabre.JPG

oFZo
02-08-2004, 06:08 AM
Create support for your arm, so that it's relaxed when you're not giving any input.

-oFZo
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tsisqua
02-08-2004, 07:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by oFZo:
Create support for your arm, so that it's relaxed when you're not giving any input.

-oFZo
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Founding member and Offical Keeper of The Herbs of the Eurotrolls.

"I have given you all the seed bearing plants and herbs to use." - The Bible

Riding a K2/Proflex '98 Beast, Shimano XTR, Noleen Shocks.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good Answer!
I had all sorts of trouble until I started using a gel type cushion under my forearm. It not only cushions my arm, but also lines up my arm so that when I am relaxed, my hand is still on the stick. You can get one at most any computer store . . . or even Wallmart http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Tsisqua

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tsisqua
02-08-2004, 07:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Woof603:
Go to the local gym and get a trainer or someone knowledgeable to show you the correct way to do wrist curls, both positive and negative. Start with light weights and work up over time. It's worked very well for me. No more problems with either mouse or CH combat stick.

http://www.spaads.org/denmark/spsabre.JPG <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is a good answer too . . . probably the best, since it will expose you to a gymnasium where you can train your entire body, and live longer.

"Yes, Mr. trainer. I need to start working out because of my hobby." "what is your hobby?" he asks. "I play a computer game." " . . . Hmm, lets start with some finger presses . . ." http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Tsisqua

p1ngu666
02-08-2004, 08:27 AM
i got the cyborg 3d (its the same as the gold one) and its very good. cant say ive had any real issues, after a LONG time playin ill a few lil things, but i cant imagine anything that would reduce em
i normaly have the stick on my lap (no room on desk)
the surport is good too, guess thats why i dont have problems. u dont haveto grasp the stick all the time.

tmdgm1
02-08-2004, 10:02 AM
Agreeed with the better support. But how do you get it down to where there is no stress on your wrist? I currently have it on the keyboard pull out of my desk. It's lower than the desktop, but my arm is angled upwards (if that makes sense). Anything lower will interfere with my legs doing the rudder pedals. I wish someone would make a full size stick and rudder combo.

Any other comments on the saiteks as the CH is a big stick and I have no hope of ever using the POV hat with it.

Extreme_One
02-08-2004, 10:10 AM
I fly with the stick on my lap - have you tried?

S! Simon
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tmdgm1
02-08-2004, 11:35 AM
On the lap would seem to be the most logical place ergonomically, but it's harder to control the stick and if I shift my feet while using the rudder pedals, it shifts the stick around. So basically, no, on the lap doesn't work.

voyager_663rd
02-08-2004, 11:44 AM
I don't have that problem but:

I'm guessing you have the stick sitting flat on "some" surface that is maybe a desktop? Try making an incline for it to sit on that will be long enough to also support your (fore)arm. The slight incline should help I would think. Cheap solution? Maybe the right one? Can only try it.

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Slammin_
02-08-2004, 12:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hunter82:
I placed my Cougar into early retirment due to hand strain. MS FFB2 did not fit my hand properly and caused lower wrist pain. The Evo or Cyborg are nice for adjustment possibilities but not durable enough for me. I finally just settled on a cordless Freedom 2.4 from Logitech. The best thing about it is it's very comfortable for me and takes most of the wrist pain away. Also since it's cordless you can position yourself to what is most comfortable for you.

==============================
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==============================<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Hunter,

If you are somewhat mechanically inclined you may want to take a look at the pic showing sping preloading http://forums.frugalsworld.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=35029

I did that to my Cougar and now it has about as much tension as a Saitek X45.

I also built some platforms that extend out and also lower my stick and throttle. The arm rests on my chair allow me to be perfectly relaxed when the stick is at center.

The only way I could use my Cougar for any lenght of time with stock spring strength would be to lower it enough to where the weight of my arm would offset the spring tension. I may do this one day and go back to the original spring tension.

Bottom line - make things as ergonomically confortable as possible, but Saitek and CH sticks are both very light in the spring tension area, so either should do.

AaronGT
02-08-2004, 12:24 PM
If you are having wrist pain see a
doctor as it could be refered pain
from a pinched nerve in your back
and not actually from your wrist.
Basically bad posture can inflame
the trapezoidal muscles and pinch
nerves leaving the spine. If you rub
your spine and some vertebrae are
sore then that's possibly the
problem.

My advice is to get a really good
chair and look online for information
on setting things up.

JG27_Dacripler
02-08-2004, 06:19 PM
I really can't answer this but the posture is a factor to make this game comfortable as possible being a "armchair athlete." I suggest a good computer chair with all the ergonomic measures at premium to make the game pleasureable. There is a hit and miss proposition on sticks because each of us have various hand sizes and the sticks just are a matter of preference or comfort. I am having a difficult time recently with a thumb ailiment which makes using the hats a painful afffair.. I have no Idea which is the perfect stick but. If we play this game too long something is bound to happen. Moderation is something of a factor to look at, but also attempting to use the other hand is another choice?? I mention this because my Father has a blown rotator cuff in his right shoulder from playing tennis, he was in serious pain but loved the game.. He could have quit but he improvised.. He relearned to play the game with the unaffected arm and has not looked back since..

p1ngu666
02-08-2004, 06:23 PM
get a decent chair for sure,
i sit oddly. crossed leged, with joystick on my right thigh http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif (left handed)
i use the twist for throttle

JG7_Rall
02-08-2004, 08:36 PM
Used to happen to me until i got my Logitech Freedom stick....never happens anymore!

tmdgm1
02-09-2004, 11:34 AM
Thanks for the info. Somewhere around the lap area seems the best place ergonomically, but I just can't figure out how to do that while using rudder pedals. Have to try and figure something out.

TgD Thunderbolt56
02-09-2004, 11:48 AM
I've discussed this here before and as a former commercial ergonomics instructor, I can't stress (no pun intended) enough the value of proper alignment and comfort. My suggestion mirrors some posted earlier and sadly is not completely cost-free. First, you need to get a comfortable chair that is fully adjustable (most nice office chairs work fine) and then position your controllers so they are within easy reached with the least amount of flex in your wrist.

I use one of these and they are absolutely the best I've seen or used for comfort and flexibility. While pricy, They are worth every penny to me and I've had mine for 6 months+. I fly about 15 hours a week and have been much more comfortable and less fatigued after long sessions since using this product. http://www.monsta.cc/DEV/select.htm

I have some pictures of my own setup if anyone wants to see how I did it.



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Platypus_1.JaVA
02-09-2004, 01:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Extreme_One:
I fly with the stick on my lap - have you tried?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That looks too much like an other 'thing' you can do while sitting behind your desk and surfing the web. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Nice for your moment for your parents to rush in. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

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2 For with what judgment ye judge,
ye shall be judged: and with what
measure ye mete, it shall be measured
to you again.

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tmdgm1
02-10-2004, 06:21 AM
Thunderbolt,

I'm definitely curious about your setup. If possible, send pics to tmdgm@buckeye-express.com

thanks,

F19_Gazoo
02-10-2004, 07:47 AM
Sorry to hear that you´ve got that. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif
I´ve got it too (too much piano/guitarplaying).

I use the Saitek X-45, but the best is to not fly longtime sessions. Keep it short, take regularly breaks and shake off the numbness.
Don´t use sticks with twisters, those are really hard on your wrists.
But keep on flying!! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://216.12.202.106/~f19vs/F19banner_D.jpg http://216.12.202.106/~f19vs/F19banner.jpg

F19_Gazoo
02-10-2004, 07:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Woof603:
Go to the local gym and get a trainer or someone knowledgeable to show you the correct way to do wrist curls, both positive and negative. Start with light weights and work up over time. It's worked very well for me. No more problems with either mouse or CH combat stick.

http://www.spaads.org/denmark/spsabre.JPG <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I´ve just have to say that some carpaltunal problems have nothing to do with bad musceltone in the wrists, meaning that training can make it worse!
I´m waiting for a surgical operation.

http://216.12.202.106/~f19vs/F19banner_D.jpg http://216.12.202.106/~f19vs/F19banner.jpg

tmdgm1
02-10-2004, 10:48 AM
I agree that wrist curls could actually make it worse. I started to do them a while back, but seemed to hurt more.

The problem with flying short missions vs long (or even take stretch breaks) is I don't feel the numbness/pain when I'm flying. Usually, what happens is that night, my hand is numb and cold and wakes me up. Sometimes, there will be pain during the next day. So I don't actually have the problem while flying, unless I'm recovering from the night before.

TgD Thunderbolt56
02-10-2004, 11:07 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tmdgm1:
Thunderbolt,

I'm definitely curious about your setup. If possible, send pics to tmdgm@buckeye-express.com

thanks,<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



Sorry for the delay in my response tmdgm1. I'll shoot some off as soon as I get home tonight...or first thing in the a.m.



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Woof603
02-10-2004, 12:44 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by tmdgm1:
I agree that wrist curls could actually make it worse. I started to do them a while back, but seemed to hurt more.

I started doing the wrist curls over two years ago, still do them three times week, and am now pain free. It doesn't happen overnight. But I did NOT get medical advice, just an excellent trainer. I was probably just lucky with a very mild case and caught it in time. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://www.spaads.org/denmark/spsabre.JPG

robbiminator
02-10-2004, 12:56 PM
I've got an X-45, which I mounted to a board (about foot by foot and a half). When flying I sit on the board (watch for splinters http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif ) and the stick is where it would be in a real plane and my wrist is in a neutral position. I don't have rudder pedals but it's worth atry. BTW twist grip sticks are a BIG no no for ppl with CPS.

p1ngu666
02-10-2004, 01:13 PM
what i had was where the tendons? bits that operated your fingers go thru the wrist, in that hole they rub, after a while they canbe sore.
u can get it suddenly, i did
so did my mate dave

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F19_Gazoo
02-11-2004, 08:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tmdgm1:
I agree that wrist curls could actually make it worse. I started to do them a while back, but seemed to hurt more.

The problem with flying short missions vs long (or even take stretch breaks) is I don't feel the numbness/pain when I'm flying. Usually, what happens is that night, my hand is numb and cold and wakes me up. Sometimes, there will be pain during the next day. So I don't actually have the problem while flying, unless I'm recovering from the night before.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have exactly the thing you´re explaining, and the thing is that for me the only solution is surgery. The tunnel the nerve goes through, is too tight. Hope things will work out, I´m waiting for surgery. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

http://216.12.202.106/~f19vs/F19banner_D.jpg http://216.12.202.106/~f19vs/F19banner.jpg

madsarmy
02-11-2004, 08:51 AM
Force Feedback on my lap!
"I dont think so"
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"LOOK MUM NO HANDS!"

JG27_Aristo
02-11-2004, 09:05 AM
HI all.I have an L shaped desk which allows me to lay my arm securely on my desk.My FFB2 sit's to my right.When I get ready to fly I simply get comfortable and then I pick up my stick and allow the springs to center it to my arm and hand.I find this to be a great position to fly in and it makes it easy to keep the nose stable for gunnery as im not fighting the stick for stability.Just my .02. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
S! Aristo

tmdgm1
02-11-2004, 10:00 AM
Robbimater,

That board sounds like a good idea, although I don't think it will work if I'm using rudder pedals. Have to keep my legs too close together to use them.

Good luck on that surgery. I figure in 10-20 years, I'll be there.