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LLv34_Stafroty
03-20-2005, 12:59 AM
got few issues, worst which i feel annoying and unrealistic, is other plane exploding nearby, own plane gets HUGE damage if inside certain range from explosions, no matter if plane explodes behind own plane after pass or something, its like 500kg (1000lbs) bomb going off. i bet gasoline tank didnt blow up that hard, it would have been smoother boom.

second one.

why does 109 explode so fast after it lights up on fire? when other lets say yaks at least burn for decades almost always without danger of explosion. in 109 its almost always 100% sure that after few secs its BOOM time. why is it like that? i find it wrong, like biased or something.

3th thing.
why i am able to cause fuel leaks on different planes really easily, but REALLY RARELY set the fuel in flames?? why is it like that? in this way of Damage modellin, incendiary rounds are almost useless against most planes in game, while readin pilot accounts from ww2 time, from different nations, almost everytime enemy plane caught on fire really fast, not in this game. most of the cases the kill is when enemy loses tail, pilot or wing, or even controls or engine, really rarely it just burns.

bit more
why are self sealing tanks able to seal 20mm cannon made holes ? i though that it was impossible, so claims also british tests with 20mm cannons against self sealed tanks installed in wings.


these are what feels wrong in my opinion and are against my commmon sense.

Erkki_M
03-20-2005, 08:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>why does 109 explode so fast after it lights up on fire? when other lets say yaks at least burn for decades almost always without danger of explosion. in 109 its almost always 100% sure that after few secs its BOOM time. why is it like that? i find it wrong, like biased or something. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

When you begun to have a big smoke after you: engine under 50%, and your plane wont bugun to burn.

I guess that 109's explosing has something to do with that 20mm cannon with explosive bullets inside the engine?

I also hate when I cant bail out before its too late, and even if I can, plane exploses when pilot is < 20m away from plane = Erkki_M is killed.

I've been wondering Yaks in fire as well. But I wonder what wonder planes are B-25 Mitchells: I chased one of them for 30 MINUTES before it runned out of fuel, all the time its right wing and right engine were in fire!

Really annoying.

LLv34_Stafroty
03-20-2005, 09:14 AM
yea, the bombers, heh.

Not many experienced pilots goes even near of them, cos ridiculous accuracy of the gun turrets. one bomber can wipe out many fighters before itself is doomed, and not the talk about HOW MANY HITS its sucks from cannon fire, 20mm **** much and from 30mm as well, like mitchell. they are overmodelled in great degree in damage resistance.

p1ngu666
03-20-2005, 11:08 AM
not always, and ai gunners are useless, human gunners can alot of damage.

some planes can last along time on fire, also fire comes back again and again....

ive had b25 last ages, other times just falls apart

Blackdog5555
03-20-2005, 02:23 PM
I just think damage modeling is a very tricky and complicated thing. The games tries to recreate the approximate damage probabilies through rough mathamatical formulas. when you shoot a 20mm/50cal you are not shooting a real gun...as im sure you know, its just numbers and hit boxes. ive sat behind an unarmoured Zero and drilled it with API ammo. watching the dozens flashes on the wings and in/through the cockpit. Nothing, but when when you hit it with an angle perpendicular to the wing, the wing flies off with a couple of shots. Its just as esy to flame a 109 as it is to flame a Zero. So the Damage modeling needs work in a lot of areas. Ive noticed the same thing you did. Ive had planes on fire circle and attack.. Think your safe, but no flaming blazer. I thinkd its much more difficult then we think to get this DM right. Olegs crew does a pretty good job. anyway Cheers. BD

Erkki_M
03-21-2005, 05:51 AM
Blackdog: remember that in P51 & Spit you have guns in your wings, you cant "snipe" -fire like with 109.

LLv34_Stafroty
03-22-2005, 10:22 AM
and why in **** planes goes off with such a blast???? if you are any near of fighter which blows up, ur plane goes there as well. Killed manytimes cause of that? is there really some 500kg bomb inside every plane fuselage or what it is??

it cant be fuel, cos, it hasnt mixed with air before it flames up, cos, its in fuel tank, deferent case would be if it is vapoured in air, and after short time, set in fire, that makes big boom for sure, but now, its also dangerous.

its like sh!tty hollywood film, where car explodes with mighty blast when bumber bit hits on something http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

if fuel tank goes off, it should make smooth fireball which should not damage anything. if its oxygen bottle, it has way too much pressure in it then http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif anyway. i hate losing plane cos enemy explodes near me (20m) or even more. what you think guys?

LLv34_Stafroty
03-22-2005, 10:23 AM
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/dumb/fae.htm heres a link about FAE (fuel air explosives) which are way different thing than exploding fuel tank D:

"For vapor cloud explosion there is a minimum ratio of fuel vapor to air below which ignition will not occur. Alternately, there is also a maximum ratio of fuel vapor to air, at which ignition will not occur. These limits are termed the lower and upper explosive limits. For gasoline vapor, the explosive range is from 1.3 to 6.0% vapor to air, and for methane this range is 5 to 15%. Many parameters contribute to the potential damage from a vapor cloud explosion, including the mass and type of material released, the strength of ignition source, the nature of the release event (e.g., turbulent jet release), and turbulence induced in the cloud (e.g., from ambient obstructions)."



http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/dumb/faeanim.gif

NorrisMcWhirter
03-22-2005, 12:50 PM
Hi,

Biggest problem I have with exploding planes taking yours out also is with Yaks. When you can get actually get these to explode, they've nearly always destroyed what I've been in. Then again, I get in close when I fire rather than hopefully spraying from 500m away.

Most recent memories involve bnz'ing Yak3s with a 262 or 190A9...hit them good and BOOM...your screen is pink or red/jet engines on fire/engine spluttering/big hole in wings/etc.

Were they carrying bombs? Nope. Do they have a lot of ammo to explode? Less than other aircraft.

So, I agree - what's the deal?

Cheers,
Norris

IIRC, being able to ignite leaking fuel was removed as long ago as the Il-2 demo because there were complaints about it.

LLv34_Stafroty
03-22-2005, 12:54 PM
so, we must use our imagination that fuel which is leakin isnt fuel, but pilots supply water or juice. and planes are using nuclear reactors http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

ECV56_Rolf
03-23-2005, 06:59 AM
I guess that the Kamikaze thing brought this...

Before this last patch, you won´t do much damage to anything by crashing near it. But now your plane explosion make nearly the same effect as an SC500 will.

LLv34_Stafroty
03-23-2005, 02:28 PM
todqay got killed or lost plane by enemy plane explosion. Oleg pls remove the 500sc bomb from the fighters http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
its not realistic at all.
(yea i know that there isnt bomb inside planes, but it sure goes of like one)

LLv34_Stafroty
03-24-2005, 08:10 AM
fuel cannot make such a BOOM like now in game. well, it could, but, you should spray that fuel in air and let it vaporise and mix with air for really good mixture, after that, set it in fire. but in game, fuel tank exploding means that its rightaway in fire without time to mix with air so well, so, it should make only fireball without much pressure or blast damage ability, cos it burns much slower than with really good mixture.

http://www.military.cz/russia/armour/artillery/tos1/TOS-1_4.jpg

if plain fuel would go off like that, why would Russian army use some TOS-1 FAE rocket lauchers etc, which use some powder type explosives, which really are capable to make big boom. (like in game http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif)

LLv34_Stafroty
05-02-2005, 01:03 PM
bumbage, once again lost some planes in online due enemy plane exploding "next" to mine, at some 50m distance, at 8 o clock or at 12oc. lost plane 5 times, on which 3 of em was cos of an enemy plane going off like SC500 bomb. ridiculous. fuel cannot fume up that easy and after it perfectly fumed and mixed up with air, goes off with such a bang..

hope this gets fixed. why use TNT in bombs if fuel is so much better, its lighter etc. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

LEBillfish
05-02-2005, 01:27 PM
Though no expert I would think a few things....

First off, I would assume most self sealing tanks have a bladder in them, as the tank empties the bladder collapses keeping relatively tight to the fuel....What that does is make it so there is no airspace...No air space no air to light the fuel with as it takes heat/fuel/oxygen to burn......So an incindiary can enter a fuel tank but would do nothing probably even going out.

A fuel tank full same thing, a half filled or less well then if the vapor ignites it would cause the tank to explode vs. just burn as the expansion happens faster then it can vent out the hole.

Burning can be a lot of things....just like taking a can of something flamable and setting a match to it...what shoots out burns, but it never quite reaches back inside the pressure enough to keep it from entering the tank, hose whatever.

Gasoline is a powerful explosive under the RIGHT conditions....A fuel air bomb like above an example....But if ALL the conditions are not right it will simply burn if even that. Incindiary rounds working if only there is an airspace to ignite the vapor....

Don't believe me?....pour a small amount of gasoline in a tiny cup filling it to the brim and drop a match in it...99% of the time if there is no area for fumes to linger (a half filled cup)....The match will hit the fuel and go out.....Then, put a tiny very tiny amount of fuel in a bucket....swirl it around, pour most out just leaving it wet in the bottom....Give it a minute and toss a match in from a distance.

You very well will get your whoosh and a fireball.......If that bucket was sealed however, and don't try this as you can get seriously hurt....and the match went in through a small hole, it very probably would blow it apart.

So consider those examples of the spraycan, cup and bucket when speaking of fuel exploding and burning. Also know one gallon of gasoline vaporised or fumes will level a brick home to small building....easily....So a plane whos fuel tank goes off next to you would be like a bomb....the concussion alone would rock your world let alone any of the shrapnel.

LLv34_Flanker
05-03-2005, 05:31 AM
S!

I've stopped playing IL2 almost completely due to some really annoying anomalies we see, like planes burning forever, lottery-DM etc. having nothing to do with realism. Fire was and is the worst enemy to a pilot, period.

About fuel tanks, self sealing ones. This material that reacts with fuel sealing holes is for some minor damage, but a big calibre HE/HEI renders them nearly useless since the hole they blow is too big and the tank does not regenerate itself. Even modern jet fuel tanks can withstand only a limited amount of damage before being unable to seal the leak.

As of IL2, the code is too old or similar. Oleg must have learned a lot from it and BoB will have totally different approach when released some day is my guess. Until then there is not much we can do but try to live with what we have.

LLv34_Stafroty
05-03-2005, 07:01 AM
LEBillfish, yes, i know that fuel can make niec boom if it has fumed up, but, in fuel tanks, there aint much room for fumes even if tank is empty, fuel tanks are quite small anyway in fighter sized planes, and if they do have right and perfect mixture of gas vapours and air and then they would boom, it would still not be such big bang as we have now in sim. would be much more realistic if that huge boomb effect is taken out from sim totally, and put partial plane explosion to replace it, IF its the fuel tank which makes that big boom effect when hit.
i would like to see that wing tank gets hit, it blows out huge fireball, while still wing would be intact, somehow, and after that huge poof, there would be trail of fire and smoke etc.

that big bang is just annoying. would it be possible to tweak that only plane pieces and depris damages the plane?