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View Full Version : AI gunners too powerful



panzerd18
04-25-2006, 12:55 AM
Flying against an old Russian bomber offline. Head on attack and one engine has some black smoke. Come around from behind, at around 500meters the AI gunners start firing. 2 seconds later I hear two hits and my left wing is gone.

Can two machine gun hits destroy a wing? It's suicude going up behind bombers in this game but in WW2 a lot were shot down this way. Also why is it they can snipe us from so far but we have only a good chance getting them when we are up close?

Its like AI IL-2's attacking tanks with rockets. They never miss!

panzerd18
04-25-2006, 12:55 AM
Flying against an old Russian bomber offline. Head on attack and one engine has some black smoke. Come around from behind, at around 500meters the AI gunners start firing. 2 seconds later I hear two hits and my left wing is gone.

Can two machine gun hits destroy a wing? It's suicude going up behind bombers in this game but in WW2 a lot were shot down this way. Also why is it they can snipe us from so far but we have only a good chance getting them when we are up close?

Its like AI IL-2's attacking tanks with rockets. They never miss!

Capt.LoneRanger
04-25-2006, 01:09 AM
Actually it is suicide to attack ANY bomber from dead six. That's a fact, not a bug.

Especially if you fly straight at him, you're a nice target. You can hit a bomber from that distance, too. Just set your convergence to 500m and try it. Takes a stable weapons-platform and some sniping skills, though.

Dunno about the IL2-thing, but I guess it largely depends on the AI-skill-level.

zoinks_
04-25-2006, 01:11 AM
dude, they're shooting at me now and i ain't even running the game!

panzerd18
04-25-2006, 01:11 AM
Is there anyway to mod the files so AI gunners are not so effective?

HotelBushranger
04-25-2006, 01:19 AM
No. Get some new tactics instead.

panzerd18
04-25-2006, 01:47 AM
Quick mission builder.

4 B17G's against 4 ME109G10's. All three AI 109's lost their engine to AI gunner fire

HotelBushranger
04-25-2006, 01:48 AM
Skill level? If their average, they're gonna do an online noob and come up slowly straight dead six. It'd have to take a blind, mentally and physically ******ed human being to miss a target like that.

panzerd18
04-25-2006, 01:55 AM
So why should average AI gunners be better shots than average AI pilots?

Capt.LoneRanger
04-25-2006, 02:38 AM
Because average AI-Pilots are expert targets.

lowfighter
04-25-2006, 03:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Capt.LoneRanger:
Because average AI-Pilots are expert targets. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hehe, thats a nice one! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

seriously you can set the AI bombers to rookie level, this will help.

F19_Ob
04-25-2006, 05:04 AM
Any attack against a bomber along its flight path will get u damaged or killed, unless u come in at very high speed and break away quickly.
Many german experts died while attacking bomberformations, sometimes because they took too great risks to down a bomber.
Many rookies went down this way aswell.
The reason for this is that the gunners will have an easy time to shoot at u with virtually no deflection nessesary and at as long distances of 500-1000m although most waited until closer if they could.

The best angles to attack is from above and about 3-4 o'clock, and then up and repeat from 8-9 o'clock. This gives difficult angles and makes calculating deflection difficult.

Most other methods will force u to fly for long times to get lined up again at safe height and angle, or fool u to fire from unsafe positions perhaps because u forget to be patient and/or try to kill fast.

There is one position more but it requires skill and good knowledge of the range and deflection of ones guns, preferably cannons.

Bf 110's used to fire from 6 o'clock but from about 800-1000m away, outside the defensive gunners effective range. Not absolutely safe but still acceptable, especially with 30mm cannons.

With only machine guns it is very difficult to down a bomber at all and it often requires taking risks- like for RAF in the battle of britain. it's best to concentrate on the engines and abort as soon as it burns.

With above described method it's possible to survive attacking 4 ace B-17 bombers with a Bf 110 with dual 20mm pod and shoot them all down, although one might leave with one smoking engine or so. 30mm canons are preferable though.

Quckmissionbuilder is great for practicing this method.


a few thoughts

panzerd18
04-25-2006, 05:36 AM
Thanks for your help. Will try a different method now as I was coming up straight behind them to shoot them down. I guess then its side on slashing attacks from now on.

horseback
04-25-2006, 08:24 AM
Of course the ai gunners are far more effective than their real life counterparts; according to some, it's a programming choice between them being totally inaccurate or absolutely accurate.

I think that is balderdash. The real reason the ai is so efffective is that unlike their real-life counterparts, they use a mouse to aim from a stable firing platform, instead of muscling a medium or heavy machine gun around on a rocking, bouncing aircraft in conditions of extreme cold and stress.

cheers

horseback

R988z
04-25-2006, 09:32 AM
I've shot down a few clowns online from turret positions when they tried to come in from 6 o' clock level, and if I can do it then anyone can.

On aircraft with no lower turret you can attack from underneath quite effectively. If it's a cockpit on server they probably won't even see you http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

ColoradoBBQ
04-25-2006, 09:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by panzerd18:
Thanks for your help. Will try a different method now as I was coming up straight behind them to shoot them down. I guess then its side on slashing attacks from now on. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You can do what the German also did back then, fly in fast below the bomber and shoot the bomber from below.

shotdownski
04-25-2006, 09:35 AM
I've been doing some research on my uncle who was a B-17 pilot KIA over Germany in 1944. Thirteen B-17s flying at about 22,000 feet were attacked by ~15-20 Fw-190(A8)s. The Fw's came in masked by the bomber's contrails; between the 5 and 7 o'clock position. Ten of the B-17s were attacked and nine were shot down within a matter of minutes. What struck me was the number of B-17 gunners killed or wounded during this brief attack; in IL2 when we attack bombers it seems overly difficult to disable the AI gunners.

MG and cannon rounds fired into the fuselage of a bomber would/should create havoc and greatly reduce the effectiveness of the bomber's defensive fire. In the action mentioned above, of the 10 tail gunners, 5 were killed or wounded during the first pass; waist gunners 3 of 10; radio gunner (waist) 5 of 10; ball turret 3 of 10; top turret 3 of 10.

horseback
04-25-2006, 10:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by shotdownski:
I've been doing some research on my uncle who was a B-17 pilot KIA over Germany in 1944. Thirteen B-17s flying at about 22,000 feet were attacked by ~15-20 Fw-190(A8)s. The Fw's came in masked by the bomber's contrails; between the 5 and 7 o'clock position. Ten of the B-17s were attacked and nine were shot down within a matter of minutes. What struck me was the number of B-17 gunners killed or wounded during this brief attack; in IL2 when we attack bombers it seems overly difficult to disable the AI gunners.

MG and cannon rounds fired into the fuselage of a bomber would/should create havoc and greatly reduce the effectiveness of the bomber's defensive fire. In the action mentioned above, of the 10 tail gunners, 5 were killed or wounded during the first pass; waist gunners 3 of 10; radio gunner (waist) 5 of 10; ball turret 3 of 10; top turret 3 of 10. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>This is a typical experience; the fighters could aim more accurately than the individual gunners, and from much farther off.

Added to this was the far greater comfort and protection enjoyed by the fighter pilot compared to the gunner, a situation reversed in this (and to be fair, every other) combat flight sim. The ai gunner in ai piloted aircraft is the next best thing to invulnerable; you need multiple head shots to kill or disable the buggers. Instead of the thin aluminum or fabric skinning used by the real things, the gunners' positions in-game are apparently surrounded by alternating layers of Chobham and titanium armor.

cheers

horseback

JG5_UnKle
04-25-2006, 01:03 PM
When you come in with 90 degrees deflection in a half roll at 700 kph and they STILL HIT YOU that's when you realise it isn't your tactics...

The hits they do score seem to be "golden BB's" - engine kills PK etc

To be honest I hate the 88/85mm flak more, its BS that it can hit you at 7km when you are pushing 600kph and jinking - that stuff is evil. Real AA gunners wouldn't even bother - and certainly not when engaged with their fighters. I find this off putting http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

Stigler_9_JG52
04-25-2006, 06:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Capt.LoneRanger:
Actually it is suicide to attack ANY bomber from dead six. That's a fact, not a bug.

Especially if you fly straight at him, you're a nice target. You can hit a bomber from that distance, too. Just set your convergence to 500m and try it. Takes a stable weapons-platform and some sniping skills, though.

Dunno about the IL2-thing, but I guess it largely depends on the AI-skill-level. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, that is not fact. It is certainly much more dangerous, but far from a fait accompli.

You want the REAL facts? Here are a few:

Gunners could not be counted on to put the very first round right into the engine block or oil pan so as to destroy your engine. Yes, it happened occasionally (or more accurately, rarely) but not commonly.

Gunners could not possibly hope to score hits while their host plane was doing barrel rolls. I've seen this countless times in IL-2.

Gunners (even those with twin .50s turrets) weren't removing wings of target aircraft. They might kill the pilot, or damage the plane and force it to break off smoking, sure..but to concentrate enough power in a burst or two to detach the wing? Pffffff....

Here are things to consider about flex gunners:

1) They are sitting backwards or sideways in relation to the direction of their aircraft's travel.

2) They are manning a moving gun, not one mounted in the wings or nose and carefully calibrated on the ground to hit a single point.

3) That moving gun has its own weight and recoil which must be "handled" whenever the plane moves in any of 3 directions (unless it's turret operated)

4) They do not control and cannot anticipate where their aircraft is going, like the pilot of a plane with fixed forward weapons can. Even a slight bank, skid or change in altitude can badly throw off a gunner's shot.

Given all this, how is it that a AI gunner can often score hits faster than the attacking plane can, when the attacker has control over his aircraft, fixed forward weaponry and usually overtake speed? The answer is, the AI are getting "hints" from the game itself, since the program creates the AI and all the planes flying in it, and the weapons and guns, too.

Put another way, the AI gunners are not "humanized" enough to properly simulate the challenges a flex gunner faced.

VW-IceFire
04-25-2006, 06:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by shotdownski:
I've been doing some research on my uncle who was a B-17 pilot KIA over Germany in 1944. Thirteen B-17s flying at about 22,000 feet were attacked by ~15-20 Fw-190(A8)s. The Fw's came in masked by the bomber's contrails; between the 5 and 7 o'clock position. Ten of the B-17s were attacked and nine were shot down within a matter of minutes. What struck me was the number of B-17 gunners killed or wounded during this brief attack; in IL2 when we attack bombers it seems overly difficult to disable the AI gunners.

MG and cannon rounds fired into the fuselage of a bomber would/should create havoc and greatly reduce the effectiveness of the bomber's defensive fire. In the action mentioned above, of the 10 tail gunners, 5 were killed or wounded during the first pass; waist gunners 3 of 10; radio gunner (waist) 5 of 10; ball turret 3 of 10; top turret 3 of 10. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think the interesting and most important part about this small piece of history is that the B-17s were in a group of 17 and the fighters were in a group of 15 or 20. Its not likely that the FW190s attacked singly or in pairs...they probably came in essentially all at once or in groups. The average AI pilot or even human pilot tends to go in by themselves and thus expose themselves to the defensive fire from several bombers at once. Ths coupled with a slow closure speed and a dead six approach is a recipie for disaster.

Altering your tactics and attempting to come in at the same time as your AI compatriots usually increases your chances of surviving.

Remember that it was a good day for a Luftwaffe pilot to down more than one B-17. It was often a good day when one pilot managed to get one B-17. Getting several was unusual...although it happened. I think the larger numbers of kills per pilots were usually wracked up by Me-262 pilots who came in really fast and had the benefit of overwhelming anti-bomber firepower.

WTE_Galway
04-25-2006, 07:20 PM
taking out flights of bombers ingame requires quite a different set of skills to dogfighting and the AI pilots are particulary poor at it

you need to keep moving in the vertical and horizontal .. sitting behind one bomber is suicidal neverlone four

The choice of planes is also significant, for example i can regualrly take out a flight of 4 x B17 on "ace" flying a 190A8 with mk108 "in-wing" and fly away intact .. but havent got a hope of doing it reliably in any of the 109's

i find a good initial attack is from head on and about 50 metres below pulling up as the flight passes over

my personal preference for the next run is below again at high speed .. I approach at least 150 metres or more below the target and only nose up once it is directly above me .. this allows me to straf the bottom of the wings and engines before overflying and ending up above the target

at this point i usually invert and deflection shoot a couple of plane lengths in front of the target allowing it to fly into my fire before diving below and away and repeating the attack

at all times avoid anything other than a quick opportunity snap shot from the dead 6 .. its both dangerous and a waste of ammunition

blakduk
04-25-2006, 08:21 PM
I find myself with the bizarre preference for engaging with fighters while avoiding anything with a gunner.
I've been playing an offline campaign based in the PTO and EVERYTIME i have had to engage bombers i have been hit. Bizarrely, when i'm engaging fighters i can get away without a scratch.
I accept that if i sit on their 6 i will take hits, but even diving on them from all angles i'm taking bullets. I've taken to ordering most of my AI comrades to engage the bombers while i and some others take on the fighters. Once the fighters are gone i will try to hit a couple of bombers with slashing attacks- then head for home.
It does seem as if the gunners have some pretty awesome armour around them too.

Treetop64
04-25-2006, 08:26 PM
I don't know if anyone has noticed, but the pan rate for AI gunners is very slow, perhaps to compensate for their uncanny ability to stick-it to your aircraft, even on the Rookie level.

I agree that the AI gunners are just a bit too damned good at what they do, even while their aircraft, as well as yours, are performing evasive maneuvers. The only way I've been able to avoid their fire is to:

A: Come down on top of them at an exreme dive angle, from very high up, and at a very high rate of speed, and score deflection shots on the wings and engines with very short one-second bursts, before blasting past them and zooming back up again for another pass.

...or:

B: Don't attack the bomber at all.

Head-on shots are a safe way at hitting bombers, too, but it is very difficult to score hits this way.

tagTaken2
04-25-2006, 08:34 PM
Just set the line in conf.ini... which I've now forgotten...

MAXBomberSkill=0 it's something like that.

They're a lot better than they were. I played FB 1.22 recently, and sheesh...

Other than that, just barrel roll a lot, and send your kill-stealing buddies in first to draw their fire.

I_KG100_Prien
04-25-2006, 09:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Stigler_9_JG52:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Capt.LoneRanger:
Actually it is suicide to attack ANY bomber from dead six. That's a fact, not a bug.

Especially if you fly straight at him, you're a nice target. You can hit a bomber from that distance, too. Just set your convergence to 500m and try it. Takes a stable weapons-platform and some sniping skills, though.

Dunno about the IL2-thing, but I guess it largely depends on the AI-skill-level. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, that is not fact. It is certainly much more dangerous, but far from a fait accompli.

You want the REAL facts? Here are a few:

Gunners could not be counted on to put the very first round right into the engine block or oil pan so as to destroy your engine. Yes, it happened occasionally (or more accurately, rarely) but not commonly.

Gunners could not possibly hope to score hits while their host plane was doing barrel rolls. I've seen this countless times in IL-2.

Gunners (even those with twin .50s turrets) weren't removing wings of target aircraft. They might kill the pilot, or damage the plane and force it to break off smoking, sure..but to concentrate enough power in a burst or two to detach the wing? Pffffff....

Here are things to consider about flex gunners:

1) They are sitting backwards or sideways in relation to the direction of their aircraft's travel.

2) They are manning a moving gun, not one mounted in the wings or nose and carefully calibrated on the ground to hit a single point.

3) That moving gun has its own weight and recoil which must be "handled" whenever the plane moves in any of 3 directions (unless it's turret operated)

4) They do not control and cannot anticipate where their aircraft is going, like the pilot of a plane with fixed forward weapons can. Even a slight bank, skid or change in altitude can badly throw off a gunner's shot.

Given all this, how is it that a AI gunner can often score hits faster than the attacking plane can, when the attacker has control over his aircraft, fixed forward weaponry and usually overtake speed? The answer is, the AI are getting "hints" from the game itself, since the program creates the AI and all the planes flying in it, and the weapons and guns, too.

Put another way, the AI gunners are not "humanized" enough to properly simulate the challenges a flex gunner faced. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sometimes even Stigler has useful information for the masses.

I also really believe that the AI gets "hints" from the game... I can't count how many times I've been on the 6 of an AI controlled aircraft, and just followed, with him in my sights.. Often times there is little to no attempt by the AI aircraft to make any evasive action... Then, miraculously the SECOND I squeeze the trigger, they pull in to some dance moves that would make Elvis and Michael Jackson proud.

Line up behind the same bogie, and the same thing will happen again. It may seem like a coincidence, but I have a hard time believing so. I love this sim, however the AI is terrible and it is a big turn off when flying offline.

I sit and think back on it, and think about some of the out-dated sims like Their Finest Hour: The BoB, Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffe, Aces of the Pacific, Aces over Europe, and European Air War.. All "Dated" programs.. But yet.. The AI gunners in bombers weren't snipers.. AI wingmen NEVER shot over your shoulder or crashed into eachother/the ground at random times, and the AI opponents weren't competitors in extreme break dancing by night..
So, it kind of makes me Raise* an eyebrow when one of the more "advanced" sims has these problems.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/compsmash.gif

*edited because this is the first time I've seen a bad word filter bleep out c-o-c-k... wow.... I know it has it's in-appropriate slang usage but JU-HEE-ZUZ