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Worf101
07-13-2007, 06:22 PM
I was watching that ole "potboiler" "The Battle of the Bulge" with the ole lady yesterday and she said something kinda funny and kind of profound. We were watching the scene when the young Panzer Commanders were singing "Der Panzer" song for their new commander.

I hadn't seen the film in a while and I had just bought the DVD. When the scene was over she was looking at me kinda strangely... She said..

"Did you know you were smiling and singing that song along with them?"

This caught me up short. She continued...

"You have some sort of love hate relationship with the Nazi's and that war. You know that had they won we'd probably both be dead or worse?"

I turned the movie off and thought for a second. "Yes", I answered. "I guess I do have a love hate relationship with that war. I hate the loss of some 50 to 60 million men, women and children, the loss of uncountable man/hours or buildings and materiel, the countless works of art... But I love the struggle, the feats of daring, bravery and honor. Of men and women caught up in a massive struggle the likes of which the world will never witness again...It is the ultimate crucible, the ultimate test of a man and his nation."

We were silent for a while... she then added as an afterthought... "god what beautiful uniforms the Nazi's had...."

I didn't sleep well last night...

Da Worfster

Worf101
07-13-2007, 06:22 PM
I was watching that ole "potboiler" "The Battle of the Bulge" with the ole lady yesterday and she said something kinda funny and kind of profound. We were watching the scene when the young Panzer Commanders were singing "Der Panzer" song for their new commander.

I hadn't seen the film in a while and I had just bought the DVD. When the scene was over she was looking at me kinda strangely... She said..

"Did you know you were smiling and singing that song along with them?"

This caught me up short. She continued...

"You have some sort of love hate relationship with the Nazi's and that war. You know that had they won we'd probably both be dead or worse?"

I turned the movie off and thought for a second. "Yes", I answered. "I guess I do have a love hate relationship with that war. I hate the loss of some 50 to 60 million men, women and children, the loss of uncountable man/hours or buildings and materiel, the countless works of art... But I love the struggle, the feats of daring, bravery and honor. Of men and women caught up in a massive struggle the likes of which the world will never witness again...It is the ultimate crucible, the ultimate test of a man and his nation."

We were silent for a while... she then added as an afterthought... "god what beautiful uniforms the Nazi's had...."

I didn't sleep well last night...

Da Worfster

joeap
07-13-2007, 06:23 PM
Yes Worf, and not just WWII.

leitmotiv
07-13-2007, 07:06 PM
Interest in war suggests a lively intelligence combined with a healthy dose of bloody-mindedness. Pacifists tend to be unbelievable bores, and to be unbelievably unrealistic. This does not mean gloating on others' real slaughter is healthy. War is as much a part of human commerce as politics, business, culture, and art. You can't escape it. It won't ever go away. If you try to hide from it, it will find you, and God help you.

waffen-79
07-13-2007, 07:07 PM
Disclaimer::
I'm a man and as a man I love women, combat, weapons, women, sports(soccer), women, a/c-cars and WARS.

That being said, I also regret the colateral damage and human life loss. I know some of you have fought, have lost relatives to wars (as I am) and have a respectful view about wars.

BUT

I know what you're talking about Worf and with all the respect for corea, nam and rak vets around here, WW2 was THE WAR and (hopefully) we will never see those formidable foes as AXIS forces were.

nope, not even north corea or china and we already lost the cccp(russia).

So, there IS a real love-hate relationship with the axis forces BE SURE!

LStarosta
07-13-2007, 07:09 PM
Waffen-79, have you ever been in combat? If not, then what you say is extremely cocky.

waffen-79
07-13-2007, 07:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LStarosta:
Waffen-79, have you ever been in combat? If not, then what you say is extremely cocky. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

nah mate, not really

If my comment sounded like I was saying being in a jungle knee deep in water with all your platoon wipedout and hearing hisses of AK-47 rounds was a "walk in the park" that's not what I meant.

Let me just say this line and you all with understand my view:

"I'm also a fan of Vietman war and coldwar era movies, games, etc. but I prefer WW2 material above all"

Worf101
07-13-2007, 07:21 PM
I served in the Regular Army. I don't thnk Waffen was belittling the service of Vets in other wars. But there was nothing as global or titanic as the WWII. When it started, there were still cavalry units in some countries, when it ended, we'd unleashed the atom. I get what he's talking about. I'm a civil war buff as well, that war affects me as well.

Da Worfster

Blood_Splat
07-13-2007, 07:27 PM
Where brave men fight...there fight I.
In freedom's cause...I live, I die.
From Concord Bridge to Heartbreak Ridge,
from the Arctic to the Mekong,
to the Caribbean...
the Queen of Battle!



Always ready...then, now, and forever.



I am the Infantry!
FOLLOW ME!

huggy87
07-13-2007, 07:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Worf101:
When it started, there were still cavalry units in some countries, when it ended, we'd unleashed the atom.

Da Worfster </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is exactly it. All wars are personally terrible, heroic, wasteful, and mad. But on the whole WW2 is special. I think historians a thousand years from now will view it, for better or worse, as a true turning point for humanity.

SeaFireLIV
07-13-2007, 08:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Worf101:
I was watching that ole "potboiler" "The Battle of the Bulge" with the ole lady yesterday and she said something kinda funny and kind of profound. We were watching the scene when the young Panzer Commanders were singing "Der Panzer" song for their new commander.

I hadn't seen the film in a while and I had just bought the DVD. When the scene was over she was looking at me kinda strangely... She said..

"Did you know you were smiling and singing that song along with them?"

This caught me up short. She continued...

"You have some sort of love hate relationship with the Nazi's and that war. You know that had they won we'd probably both be dead or worse?"

I turned the movie off and thought for a second. "Yes", I answered. "I guess I do have a love hate relationship with that war. I hate the loss of some 50 to 60 million men, women and children, the loss of uncountable man/hours or buildings and materiel, the countless works of art... But I love the struggle, the feats of daring, bravery and honor. Of men and women caught up in a massive struggle the likes of which the world will never witness again...It is the ultimate crucible, the ultimate test of a man and his nation."

We were silent for a while... she then added as an afterthought... "god what beautiful uniforms the Nazi's had...."

I didn't sleep well last night...

Da Worfster </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ha, Worf. You and I are more similar than I thought! I know exactly what you mean. I could tell you some stories, but I er... won`t.

Pirschjaeger
07-13-2007, 08:58 PM
Besides the points Worf and Waffen made, we can also thank the movie makers for our deep interests. Have you ever considered how many movies have been made for each war? WW2 has been, by far, used the more than any other war as the subject of war movies. I think this gives us some sort of personal connection.

Stew278
07-13-2007, 09:02 PM
The air war in WWII seems especially unique. There'll probably never be air combat on that scale ever again. The weapons nowadays are just too potent and expensive. The top few German pilots combined shot down more planes than a lot of countries probably have in their entire air forces today.

Having an interest in wars as a hobby isn't necessarily a bad thing in my mind. It seems to me like people that completely ignore them have no respect or appreciation for what the people involved sacrificed. Besides, being aware of the price of war might make people less prone to rush into it. It also might make some pacifists realize that there comes a time when the only option left is violence.

My fascination with WWII is restricted mostly to the machines, especially the airplanes. Like you said, the technological advancement during those years was incredible. I'm actually most fond of the German technology and aircraft. Even if they were the bad guys, they still had some impressive engineers and scientists.

zardozid
07-13-2007, 09:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I was watching that ole "potboiler" "The Battle of the Bulge" with the ole lady yesterday and she said something kinda funny and kind of profound. We were watching the scene when the young Panzer Commanders were singing "Der Panzer" song for their new commander.

I hadn't seen the film in a while and I had just bought the DVD. When the scene was over she was looking at me kinda strangely... She said..

"Did you know you were smiling and singing that song along with them?"

This caught me up short. She continued...

"You have some sort of love hate relationship with the Nazi's and that war. You know that had they won we'd probably both be dead or worse?"

I turned the movie off and thought for a second. "Yes", I answered. "I guess I do have a love hate relationship with that war. I hate the loss of some 50 to 60 million men, women and children, the loss of uncountable man/hours or buildings and materiel, the countless works of art... But I love the struggle, the feats of daring, bravery and honor. Of men and women caught up in a massive struggle the likes of which the world will never witness again...It is the ultimate crucible, the ultimate test of a man and his nation."

We were silent for a while... she then added as an afterthought... "god what beautiful uniforms the Nazi's had...."

I didn't sleep well last night... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Nazi's you hate to love and Japanese you love to hate... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

BrotherVoodoo
07-14-2007, 12:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">We were silent for a while... she then added as an afterthought... "god what beautiful uniforms the Nazi's had....I didn't sleep well last night... " </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Got to love your old lady, LMAO!
I am also facinated with the time period during the war.


Great post Worf! S! Sir!

zugfuhrer
07-14-2007, 01:44 AM
It is known that war unite people. WWII was a good war, a well defined enemy, the fascism.

Some background.
For europeeans Germany expanded after the powervaccum of Napoleon, and the industrialism turned the base of power upside down. So Germany was a good enemy. When Germany started to threat the global power, the brittish empire, France and UK united against Germany, so the WWI started.

Germany was a good enemy in general and as fascistic very good in particular. Italy was also fascistic but counted out as "not a real threat".

So WWII was a good clean war.
To tell stories about an old clean good war unites the people a little like a real good realtime war. But real war is not so good because our sons comes back as disabled or in bodybags, and that is not popular.

Our storytellers fill us with more or less true stories to boost our picture of ourself and our contries as good, clean and pure.
There are few movies about dirty wars like French indchina. Is there a French movie about Dien Bien Phu or any movie about "The bay of pigs".
Computer games are another way for "escapism" from the real worlds problems to be "hero" in virtual world.

Stories about incompetent leaders, corruption the meaningslessnes of war is more sparse.
But there are some that take this view
http://tadrart.com/tessalit/indigenes/movie_gb.html

Conclusion: Good war unites the population. Stories about a good war boost our nationalism and sometimes take the focus away from more up to date problems.

Advice: Read history with a scientific view.

A good quote: Grandfather where you a war hero?
No but I was in a unit of heroes.

Another qoute: He was the best general He hated every day he worked as one.

BTW what Battle of the Bulge did you see?
The old one with Henry Fonda and Charles Bronsson?

It is the worst kind of war-movie I ever have seen, the listen for and finds tanks by the sound of tank engine from a scout aircraft flying in the air. The same tanks take down the aircraft as it they where equipped by AAA-guns. The German army commander commands individual tanks to fire. All sides got Sherman tanks.
The german tanks takes hit from alied tanks and antitank guns without being damaged, but they explode while beeing struck by burning fuel-barrels. A sherman got the whole turret blown off but the crew survives. This move is junk.....

Bewolf
07-14-2007, 01:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Worf101:
I was watching that ole "potboiler" "The Battle of the Bulge" with the ole lady yesterday and she said something kinda funny and kind of profound. We were watching the scene when the young Panzer Commanders were singing "Der Panzer" song for their new commander.

I hadn't seen the film in a while and I had just bought the DVD. When the scene was over she was looking at me kinda strangely... She said..

"Did you know you were smiling and singing that song along with them?"

This caught me up short. She continued...

"You have some sort of love hate relationship with the Nazi's and that war. You know that had they won we'd probably both be dead or worse?"

I turned the movie off and thought for a second. "Yes", I answered. "I guess I do have a love hate relationship with that war. I hate the loss of some 50 to 60 million men, women and children, the loss of uncountable man/hours or buildings and materiel, the countless works of art... But I love the struggle, the feats of daring, bravery and honor. Of men and women caught up in a massive struggle the likes of which the world will never witness again...It is the ultimate crucible, the ultimate test of a man and his nation."

We were silent for a while... she then added as an afterthought... "god what beautiful uniforms the Nazi's had...."

I didn't sleep well last night...

Da Worfster </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I "so" know what you mean.

Friendly_flyer
07-14-2007, 04:19 AM
Zugfurer is right, the 2nd World War was the last "good" war. After that there was the Korean War, which ended in a very unsatisfactory standstill, then came the Vietnam War and the Summer of Love, which changed how we see leaders, authority, duty and war for more than a generation. After 1968 the protagonist is the anti-hero having trouble with his superiors. In "pre-68" stories of bravery, the hero is one who followed his duty through.

lowfighter
07-14-2007, 05:24 AM
This subject is poisonous especially when discussed in a public forum .
Worf I agree with you, but there's more than the cult of bravery and so on to justify OUR fascination for this war (and whatever other)and it's characters. And that something-more is on our dark and deep side, and not many are willing to look that deep inside their hearts.
It's poisonous because not all people are willing to look that deep inside their hearts. Once you are aware of your weak side you can fight against it...

WOODY01
07-14-2007, 07:24 AM
Yea great post Worf101, I have a similar awaking from my girl every now and then.

joeap
07-14-2007, 07:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by zardozid:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I was watching that ole "potboiler" "The Battle of the Bulge" with the ole lady yesterday and she said something kinda funny and kind of profound. We were watching the scene when the young Panzer Commanders were singing "Der Panzer" song for their new commander.

I hadn't seen the film in a while and I had just bought the DVD. When the scene was over she was looking at me kinda strangely... She said..

"Did you know you were smiling and singing that song along with them?"

This caught me up short. She continued...

"You have some sort of love hate relationship with the Nazi's and that war. You know that had they won we'd probably both be dead or worse?"

I turned the movie off and thought for a second. "Yes", I answered. "I guess I do have a love hate relationship with that war. I hate the loss of some 50 to 60 million men, women and children, the loss of uncountable man/hours or buildings and materiel, the countless works of art... But I love the struggle, the feats of daring, bravery and honor. Of men and women caught up in a massive struggle the likes of which the world will never witness again...It is the ultimate crucible, the ultimate test of a man and his nation."

We were silent for a while... she then added as an afterthought... "god what beautiful uniforms the Nazi's had...."

I didn't sleep well last night... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Nazi's you hate to love and Japanese you love to hate... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not the same thing.

LEBillfish
07-14-2007, 07:36 AM
Militaristic honor, uniforms, regimentation, strictness, comraderie, etc....Is appealing to most people in one form or another. They see the strength of it, the great pride in nation and self, the bond formed with those standing beside you and oddly most of all the discipline.

Take the average human, though they on one hand don't desire the lack of freedom of such a thing, on the other clearly feel its powerful draw wanting it for themselves as well. People actually like order and discipline, the sacrifice it takes often seeming well worth the struggle and what one must endure to achieve it...A great thing to aspire to.

Additionally, most like an underdog that rises up and states "I'm not going to take it anymore, and infact, wait till you see how I can dish it out." Victory after victory, songs of pride sung out loud as they march on perpetuating their idea of right "cleansing" the evil (opposing side) and turning them to the side of right.

It doesn't matter who or what...Be they Cossacks or Barbarians fighting for their homeland, Romans conqouring the world....Alexander, Native Americans, Cavalry, Napoleon, Pirates, French Foreign Legion, Teddy in Cuba or the Philippines, on and on clear up to Nazi's and Afgani freedom fighters vs. the Soviets, or the U.S. vs the Afgani's...........Given the right twist on it, and even an honest one.....They are proud, "right", just and embrace all the good of above to achieve their goals.

So naturally it is drawing and enticing.....Yet, once put into perspective, and all inclusively, the luster of brass and click of heels in EVERY situation for EVERY side, quickly tarnishes and the honor and discipline becomes the mark of oppression of both that group and nation and even those men within it.

Military might and use sadly to date has been a necessary good and evil....It can force either, be the saviour or oppressor, defender or aggressor.....and only as long as it coincides with "our" personal goals of right and desires will it be looked upon favorably, the sins to achieve those goals ignorred.

Fact is, in every conflict be it between individuals or nations, booth sides have points of right and both have points of wrong....No matter what you can expect both as well to "justly" justify their actions and disregard for wrongs done in the name of ________.

The WWII german military and even Nazi's no exception.....To most of us so detatched from it it all simply exciting and drawing given the right twist.......Yet once shown for what it really was, then we despise them.

Nice to have such an indecisive luxury huh? It's an old tale that will never change as long as we have a need for militaries or police as we do not police ourselves.

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2007, 07:37 AM
Worf-

You like the film and the scene in it. There's no deep inner feelings inside

It's just you enjoying a film. It's not you enjoying what the nazis stood for. Give yourself a break here man. Life's tough enough without giving yourself a complex about what singing along with actors in a film means. It measn...nothing at all. Remember when not everything had a deep meaning? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Today's times are pretty Fd up. Don't let them F you up. Be true to yourself, and that's that. You don;t need me to tell you that, man

crucislancer
07-14-2007, 08:39 AM
It's a love/hate thing for me as well, but also a big part of my life. I'm an Army Brat, and my dad is a big-time military history buff. His bookshelf is loaded with military history books, everything from general overviews to what uniforms the Waffen SS wore. Several of my relatives from the Greatest Generation served in WWII, so I heard a few stories about it, plus all my dad's stories from Vietnam. It surrounds my life.

But, those stories, and others like them, told with a eye towards the consequences, are what gives us our love/hate relationship with it.

I would be surprised if those of us here didn't have the love/hate relationship with it.

djetz
07-14-2007, 10:25 AM
If WW2 had been a fashion competition the Nazis would have won hands-down.

K_Freddie
07-14-2007, 10:29 AM
My wife, 2 kids and I watch everything that is war related.... then I turn to my kids and say
"Now you can see what happens when people cannot learn to get along together... It all starts here in this home, so when are you 2 going to stop fighting ?"

Been doing this for years, and I have 2 fine sensible boys http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

VW-IceFire
07-14-2007, 11:33 AM
I think allot of us share this love/hate relationship with World War II. I've almost always been fascinated by World War II in particular as its a cataclysm that has pretty much defined the last 60 years. The stuff going on right now you can trace back to events in World War II that set the world on its current course. The profound influence that the conflict has had on the whole world in every respect is what completely fascinates me.

From everything including universal suffrage and womens rights to computers and our current level of technology to the alliances that have been formed and broken and the political scenery. All of this comes from World War II. Wars tend to bring out the absolute best and worst of the human race...sadly I think.

Bearcat99
07-14-2007, 01:15 PM
For me it is an overall love of history in general... but WWII in particular because the lines between good and evil were so clearly defined... and WWII changed the world so much...

Kelly your latest avatar flips me out because whenever I hit a post of yours for a split second I see the full sized avatar.... YIKES!!! Now if it was one of the older ones it wouldn't be so bad.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

zugfuhrer
07-14-2007, 01:31 PM
My interest in WWII is pure sociological. Those who are romantic about war, heroism dont know what they talk about, they have never lost a close friend in war, they have been shoot at by live ammo. They dont have to live with a knowledge such as "If have hade done this or if I havent done that my best friend would have been alive today". That is the true romance in war.

Those who say "what dont kill you makes you stronger" should amputate their right hand, it wont kill you and is not a pleasant experience. It is the same with war it is an experience that you should want to live without, like beeing a veteran.

Have you who thinks war is awsome ever thought about why veterans seldom talk about what they have done with anyone who doesn share their experience?

Interminate
07-14-2007, 08:03 PM
What a bunch of melodrama.

NO REGRETS!!

LStarosta
07-14-2007, 09:50 PM
It's so easy to like any kind of story when there is clearly a bad guy and a good guy. That, in my opinion, is the appeal that the Second World War has for many people. It's, in many ways, an example of the fairy tale archetype in the tomes of history.

zardozid
07-14-2007, 10:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Posted Sat July 14 2007 06:34 Hide Post

quote:
Originally posted by zardozid:

quote:
I was watching that ole "potboiler" "The Battle of the Bulge" with the ole lady yesterday and she said something kinda funny and kind of profound. We were watching the scene when the young Panzer Commanders were singing "Der Panzer" song for their new commander.

I hadn't seen the film in a while and I had just bought the DVD. When the scene was over she was looking at me kinda strangely... She said..

"Did you know you were smiling and singing that song along with them?"

This caught me up short. She continued...

"You have some sort of love hate relationship with the Nazi's and that war. You know that had they won we'd probably both be dead or worse?"

I turned the movie off and thought for a second. "Yes", I answered. "I guess I do have a love hate relationship with that war. I hate the loss of some 50 to 60 million men, women and children, the loss of uncountable man/hours or buildings and materiel, the countless works of art... But I love the struggle, the feats of daring, bravery and honor. Of men and women caught up in a massive struggle the likes of which the world will never witness again...It is the ultimate crucible, the ultimate test of a man and his nation."

We were silent for a while... she then added as an afterthought... "god what beautiful uniforms the Nazi's had...."

I didn't sleep well last night...



Nazi's you hate to love and Japanese you love to hate... Smile



Not the same thing. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I'll bite..."what's not the same thing?" http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

joeap
07-15-2007, 06:36 AM
A whole nation is not a political party. That's all, I don't think it is accurate but whatever.

Phil_K
07-15-2007, 12:22 PM
I think one of the aspects of WW2 that isn't often commented is that by chance it has an interesting narrative storytline (say in comparison with WW1 which was very static).

There are extreme fluctuations in the fortunes of the protagonists, vital critical moments, lots of interesting smaller narratives, lots of fascinating (andd frequently mad) characters, and, as has been mentioned above, there is a reasonably identifiable (though not purely) "good" and "bad" side.

And it was extensively filmed. I think these things are all part of the fascination, rather than just rubber-necking of the car-crash variety.

Doolittle81
07-15-2007, 06:46 PM
There is a bonding that occurs within military units and among men in combat which is unparalled in any other human endeavors, bar that of giving birth to a child and the bonds between father and mother and child. If you've not been there, you can only imagine it...and instinctively respect and, possibly, envy it.

The scene in the "Battle of the Bulge" movie evokes that bonding/spirit, and it is universal....regardless of the nationality of the depicted 'soldiers'.

Music is the most forceful medium through which such bonding can be expressed, internally and to the 'outsider'.



Panzer Anthem scene in Battle of the Bulge (http://youtube.com/watch?v=35wkGEnDZ6Y&mode=related&search=)

Panzer Anthem video with English subtitles... (http://youtube.com/watch?v=527d32Taajk&mode=related&search=)

Interminate
07-15-2007, 08:11 PM
Germans are not at all stodgy as the hollywood bulge portrayal is.

And thanks for the other link to that other version. Hadn't heard that, like it a lot..... Without Reservation whatsoever.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif

lowfighter
07-15-2007, 08:46 PM
We see the two sides as "good" and "bad" because we are in possession of the facts NOW. But the ordinary german soldier, even the lower rank officer, he didn't think he was on the bad side, at least for a while. If they thought they were the baddies they wouldn't have fought so valiantly as they did. These were mostly young people, and propaganda worked well. Were they not marching through Soviet Union to "liberate" those countries from the communist yoke? Etcetcetc
I think more and more started to ponder after they were already deep inside Soviet Union and begin to see things and receive orders which were not right. (Like the order to set villages on fire when retreating from them during the Moskow front Soviet winter counteroffensive)
But of course it's not that simple as that, and the more fascinating to try understanding what was the ordinary german thinking as the war went on.

dugong
07-15-2007, 11:14 PM
War is mysterious. It is profound. It is both necessary and unnecessary simultaneously. War will always be here. It is in the past, in the present, and in the future. It brings out both the best and the worst of humanity. Personal opinion on any particular war depends entirely on your immediate perspective.

And yes, he Germans did don some smart uniforms. War also influences fashion.

dugong
07-15-2007, 11:21 PM
I opened up both links via tabbed browsing by accident. One was playing a few seconds ahead of the other. Quite rousing.

Phil_K
07-16-2007, 06:06 AM
lowfighter!

Watch this:

Mitchell & webb (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oU_Cz8b2sM)

FliegerAas
07-16-2007, 06:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Worf101:


[...]

she then added as an afterthought... "god what beautiful uniforms the Nazi's had...."

[...]

Da Worfster </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif That's what I always think when watching WWII movies.

Interminate
07-21-2007, 11:25 PM
The people in them were beautiful too.

Von_Rat
07-22-2007, 01:39 AM
the side with the ugliest uniforms usually wins.

Phil_K
07-22-2007, 06:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Von_Rat:
the side with the ugliest uniforms usually wins. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's down to where you allocate your intellectual efforts. Grand strategy or uniform design...

DuxCorvan
07-22-2007, 08:34 AM
I don't like WW2 -I prefer ancient warfare above all.

But I love machines. Specially war machines, where the challenge is having the upper hand fighting other machines, and whose purpose is protecting the man behind and destroying the man and machine in front. It's terribly exciting, fascinating from a strictly intellectual point of view, and a bit wicked because it really combines the ethics of the conscious man, with the inherent violence of the beast/child within.

And WW2 is a wet dream for machine lovers.

Swivet
07-22-2007, 09:09 AM
I know what you mean Worf, I have this weird fascination (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4v6qRdnKas) with WW2 and Vietnam, and just the military in general and only Nam because i was born in the 60's, and after seeing "Apoc Now" i had sort of an idea of what they went thru, well sort of. But like you said the struggle, the feats of daring, bravery and honor are always intriguing.Not to mention the military has got some great toys http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Like Dux says: "We love war machines" Sometimes it's good to have a significant other who dont always understand us to bring us back to reality..We dont ask for it, it just happens. Sometimes that aint always a bad thing. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

Kongo Otto
07-22-2007, 02:28 PM
Some of you young men think that war is all glamour and glory, but let me tell you, boys, it is all hell! - William T. Sherman

MB_Avro_UK
07-22-2007, 04:42 PM
Hi all,

Most of us here are from the 'West' as far as WW2 was concerned.

We don't hear much here from the Russian perspective.

This sim is called il2. The Russian Front or East Front accounted for 90% of German military deaths in WW2.

To the German and Russian populace, the Western Front so beloved by film makers was a minor diversion.


Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

Kongo Otto
07-23-2007, 03:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Doolittle81:
There is a bonding that occurs within military units and among men in combat which is unparalled in any other human endeavors, bar that of giving birth to a child and the bonds between father and mother and child. If you've not been there, you can only imagine it...and instinctively respect and, possibly, envy it.

The scene in the "Battle of the Bulge" movie evokes that bonding/spirit, and it is universal....regardless of the nationality of the depicted 'soldiers'.

Music is the most forceful medium through which such bonding can be expressed, internally and to the 'outsider'.



Panzer Anthem scene in Battle of the Bulge (http://youtube.com/watch?v=35wkGEnDZ6Y&mode=related&search=)

Panzer Anthem video with English subtitles... (http://youtube.com/watch?v=527d32Taajk&mode=related&search=) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Btw there are other songs, same good as the Panzerlied.

Mechanized Infantry Anthem (http://youtube.com/watch?v=rKbN6zg6Sk8&mode=related&search=)

Panzeranthem of the Afrika Korps (http://youtube.com/watch?v=D2vv1jC08kM&mode=related&search=)

Ich hatt einen Kameraden (http://youtube.com/watch?v=bsDXGThPO64&mode=related&search=) Played at Miltary Funerals until today,one of the oldest German Miltary Songs.
Text by Ludwig Uhland 1809
Melody by Friedrich Silcher 1825


Off topic:
Again at the Line of duty (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIlo2hL1tLk&mode=related&search=)

Interminate
07-27-2007, 08:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Phil_K:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Von_Rat:
the side with the ugliest uniforms usually wins. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's down to where you allocate your intellectual efforts. Grand strategy or uniform design... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, <span class="ev_code_RED">*****</span> We pause now for a word from our sponsor.... <span class="ev_code_YELLOW">" Promote national hatred
" Are recognized as national slurs
" Allude to symbols of national hatred
" Insulting comments about various nations

If a player is found to have participated in such actions (note, not only started, but also participated in any form either for, against or just replying in the thread), he/she will:

" Be given a warning and/or receive a temporary suspension from the boards, depending upon severity </span> This has been a test.. we now return you to your regular programming... <span class="ev_code_RED">*****</span> be that nation.

Bearcat99
07-28-2007, 12:10 AM
Consider that your warning. I was about to ban you.. but I decided to give you a break. You have been around here since 05... and you should have seen by now how statements like the inflammatory one you made above - that I edited before it got out of hand - can hijack threads and turn what started out as a decent discussion into a pi$$ing contest. If you insist on going that route then I will take further action.. in the meantime keep your opinions about any modern day nation that involve current politics or can incite the ire of community members of said nation to your self or in a PM. I will not warn you again.

Interminate
07-29-2007, 10:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bearcat99:
Consider that your warning. I was about to ban you.. but I decided to give you a break. You have been around here since 05... and you should have seen by now how statements like the inflammatory one you made above - that I edited before it got out of hand - can hijack threads and turn what started out as a decent discussion into a pi$$ing contest. If you insist on going that route then I will take further action.. in the meantime keep your opinions about any modern day nation that involve current politics or can incite the ire of community members of said nation to your self or in a PM. I will not warn you again. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> What?, you mean how the people in the German Unis are beautiful?

Bearcat99
07-30-2007, 06:38 AM
No the bit about less than honorable nations and mentioning the U.S. in particular and something about starting a war..... Keep that kind of stuff out of threads in her. If yiou want to talk about that go to CWOS or anywhere but here.

Hoatee
07-30-2007, 01:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Von_Rat:
the side with the ugliest uniforms usually wins. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The most aesthetic doesn't always win.

Interminate
08-20-2007, 05:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bearcat99:
No the bit about less than honorable nations and mentioning the U.S. in particular and something about starting a war..... Keep that kind of stuff out of threads in her. If yiou want to talk about that go to CWOS or anywhere but here. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
stop flag-waving. maybe i should apologize everytime my bullet zips through the cockpit of a p51.

zardozid
08-20-2007, 07:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Posted Mon August 20 2007 16:21 Hide Post

quote:
Originally posted by Bearcat99:
No the bit about less than honorable nations and mentioning the U.S. in particular and something about starting a war..... Keep that kind of stuff out of threads in her. If yiou want to talk about that go to CWOS or anywhere but here.


stop flag-waving. maybe i should apologize everytime my bullet zips through the cockpit of a p51. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


It sure took you a while to come up with your comeback...

And I hate to say it but I think you missed his point.

josephs1959
08-20-2007, 08:56 PM
When I think of the loss that wars bring I always see it this way; It's much,much more than only the loss of life or destruction of property. I think how one life might affect another. Not by just being there to save a life, but also by inspiring others as teachers do for instance.The lost potential that the dead had to offer. In other words; The cures that the dead doctors or soldiers that wanted to be doctors or researchers cannot offer the living and that's just one generation's renumination and just one field-medicine. If you start to think of all of the other fields of study,art,music,law,politics,philosophy thenmultiply that by the next generations, the loss is hugely momentous to modern societyand of course can never be corrected. The children of the dead fathers/mothers, what would have been their contribution? For instance; What if John Kennedy was killed in that ramming instead of injured? I know you can go on and on about what if's. But how different would society be if only????????????

heywooood
08-20-2007, 10:46 PM
it seems to me that life is too short - so short in fact, that while one is too young to realize the scope of the brevity of life, one develops feelings of a very powerful kind.
Feelings of righteousness and immortality...sometimes ideology can be propelled and energized by these feelings and if there is a charismatic personality at their head, these ideologies can take hold...unfortunately - some of these ideologies are fundamentally flawed in some way...usually having something to do with the use of force being an acceptable way for the ones supporting it to promote it. Very simple - you join our way and live - or you resist our way and die (or otherwise eat sh1t)

Whenever this occurs there is by default an opposition - rooted within some people is the core essense of what is truly right - and the battle is joined (usually after a great deal of reluctance on the the part of the truly righteous because war is infact hell)

That is what you are drawn to mostly - unless you are drawn to bloodlust and domination.

That is what always inspires me - the reluctance of the people that are forced to war by the miserable mongers and despots..people who would rather just live and let live but can't - and they rally hard and they overcome...for a while anyways...until some ******* starts it all up again.

We are our own worst enemy...but god loves us anyways...and maybe thats because some of us will fight for life - some of us will run into a burning building with rescue in mind, even as others flee - some of us will work to protect children from predators - some of us will wear a badge of law and face the unknowable hostility of strangers - some of us will sail into dark storms in search of distressed travelers - some of us know the value of life even if others forget it.

Maybe thats why we are drawn to the stories of war.

LEXX_Luthor
08-21-2007, 02:19 AM
leitmotiv:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Interest in war suggests a lively intelligence combined with a healthy dose of bloody-mindedness. Pacifists tend to be unbelievable bores, and to be unbelievably unrealistic. This does not mean gloating on others' real slaughter is healthy. War is as much a part of human commerce as politics, business, culture, and art. You can't escape it. It won't ever go away. If you try to hide from it, it will find you, and God help you. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Some pacifists are the ones we learn most from. The most convincing anti-war activists are combat vets.

Each side claims God is on their side. Mark Twain seems to well describe Man's attempt to create a proxy God with a role in worldy war in...

War Prayer ~&gt; http://lexrex.com/informed/otherdocuments/warprayer.htm

LEXX_Luthor
08-21-2007, 02:35 AM
Stew278:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">My fascination with WWII is restricted mostly to the machines, especially the airplanes. Like you said, the technological advancement during those years was incredible. I'm actually most fond of the German technology and aircraft. Even if they were the bad guys, they still had some impressive engineers and scientists. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
That's my own personal rationalization. The flying machines are fascinating, from before WW1 to about 1960, when McNamara, Kruschev, and Sandys killed off real military aviation development in favour of missiles.

MrMojok
08-21-2007, 02:50 AM
Bearcat should wait three weeks before responding to this.

Worf101
08-21-2007, 11:52 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MrMojok:
Bearcat should wait three weeks before responding to this. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Hey, stop hatin on BossMan, he's got things to see and places to do.

Da Worfster

Friendly_flyer
08-21-2007, 12:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
Each side claims God is on their side. Mark Twain seems to well describe Man's attempt to create a proxy God with a role in worldy war in...

War Prayer ~&gt; http://lexrex.com/informed/otherdocuments/warprayer.htm </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That was very ... well put. I can see why Mr. Twains relatives weren't overly pleased.

GreyFox5
08-21-2007, 02:17 PM
Love/Hate relationship - Well for me it's a real interest in History. Why WWII? Well I'm not really sure about that. It's a question I may never really be sure what the answer is.

However I also think this is true mostly. http://www.warisaracket.com/

But this is a view from someone that's been there. Just something to read I'm not pushing this agenda that they have here but I think the some people may have other things on the collective mind then the cost of it all.

But I also believe that freedom isn't free. So there is the conflict I have.

My 2 cents
~S~

Bearcat99
08-21-2007, 03:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by zardozid:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Posted Mon August 20 2007 16:21 Hide Post

quote:
Originally posted by Bearcat99:
No the bit about less than honorable nations and mentioning the U.S. in particular and something about starting a war..... Keep that kind of stuff out of threads in her. If yiou want to talk about that go to CWOS or anywhere but here.


stop flag-waving. maybe i should apologize everytime my bullet zips through the cockpit of a p51. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


It sure took you a while to come up with your comeback...

And I hate to say it but I think you missed his point. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

He got it now..... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif