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Rampenplan
03-02-2006, 10:32 AM
A friend of my family flew for the Luftwaffe in the war. He has a large amount of anecdotes about his time there, and I thought it would be educational to me to see how he would do in IL2.

It took a while to get him used to the controls, because he is not used to using computers. Also, he can't fly long before tiring his eyes. Apart from those things, he seems not to be overly interested in flightsimming and I suspect he did it mainly to please me.

He wanted to fly the Me262, 'because he wanted to know what it was like'. He got turned down when he applied to be transferred to jets, and I guess he's still curious. What I wanted was to see him fly the 109E and the 190A, which were his machines in the war. Is just sat to the side making notes and helping him with the keyboard. He was very impressed with the graphics in the game, his impressions of computers being calibrated on 'pong'.
After a number of testflights in a Finnish Brewster, to get him used to the controls, he started with the Emil. He had to get a bit used to the flight model. According to him, the real 109 was 'stiffer'. It would want to go in a straight line, and you'd have to work to get it to turn; relaxing the controls would very quickly return you to a straight line. The radius of turn and the turn speed were OK according to his recollection, but to do it often would require 'Riesenmuskeln'. My stick setup is already very stiff, so that must have been impressive. HE didn't turn much when at speed, mostly curving gently. The climb and acceleration were a bit optimistic according to him. Such climb should be possible, but only if you had the exact right 'feel for the wing', not just b puting the nose up. In fighting, he took a lot of time to get into position, and preferred to go for positions in which he had at least two seconds uninterrupted firing time. After that, he'd break off, even if the attack had failed to do damage. He'd shoot quite accurately, even with difficult deflection shots. However, if there was any indication he might be targeted by an enemy, he'd go fully into the defensive. Especially after he learned to mistrust his AI wingmen. Even during attack approaches, he'd be throwing his view all over the glass of the cockpit, and always on the widest available angle. When landing he'd be very careful, make a long approach and touching down straight, flaring and slow. Maybe because he spent a good few months in hospital in '40 after crashing his Emil on landing.

In the 190a4, his first remark was 'Warum gibt's kein Panzerglas?', and the second was about the ReVi being mounted too low. Front visibility was completely wrong, according to him. This was compounded by the flight attitude that should have been more tail-high. When gunning the engine for take-off, he jammed the stick into his crotch, and was very surprised when his tail started slipping sideways regardless. I locked his tailwheel manually thereafter, but he insisted that should also be more effective.

The first time he took off, he immediately landed because he thought his engine was running badly. I explained to him random engine trouble isn't modeled, but he has trouble seeing the extents of the simulation, expecting everything to be modeled that he can see.
Surprisingly, he doesn't think the E loss in curves is too much. Even more surprisingly, he thinks straight flight drag is too light (said while overshooting the runway with 600 km/h). Then he made remarks about the engine giving accurate performance when at high speed, but too little thrust at speeds lower than 350-400 km/h. One of his combat moves is a very rough near-stall high-speed turn, dropping a lot of speed, then accelerating - which last part doesn't happen. That annoyed him a bit.
He did like the maneuverability of the a4. The FW was nice to maneuver, because it was very light in the controls compared to the 109E. He was much more eager to pull violent moves in the FW. It was easy to pull the acing vector away from the heading vector. He did consider the rudder too 'sharp' though. That should have been less useful. Still, most maneuvers would be quite gradual. After a violent move, he'd often fire very short bursts from his wing guns. He said that was to stop them jamming.

In the 190, when confronted with roaming fighters, he'd refuse to engage. He'd just look for a different target. Quite different from my 'kill everyhin' approach. When attacked, he held his own, once making a very impressive aerobatic move: A Spit came in fast on his high 6, which was answered with a throttle cut and a clockwise barrel roll with a steep pull-up, ending up firing from almost-stall vertically down into the Spits cockpit. When I try, I crash.

He never liked flying against Spits. He said they could still give him nightmares. Once, when pursued by a cautious AI Spit, he suddenly started firing his wingguns into open space. When asked, he said you shouldn't have a bomb inside your wing when there's a Spit behind you. He was dumping his ammo.
He remembers viidly how his plane was hit with Hispano's. He says the little clunk we hear now is nothing compared to the shock, vibration and deafening noise of getting any part of the plane hit by 2cm. Rifle calibre would also make noise, but mainly when hitting something substantive, like armour, engine, or heavier stiffeners. When he fired upon a Lightning, and took off a wing and a boom with a single burst, he was quite surprised. He said it was very rare taking off large structural parts, but a lot of paneling should come off, and fires shoudl be more frequent. When it happened a few times more (wing shedding I mean) he said it was something you'd expect after a long wing fire, when carrying vulnerable ordnance, or when hit with 3cm a lot, but not otherwise. When landing the 190 the first time, he landed much more roughly than with the 109. After making touchdown, he jammed his stick back, causing the bouncing tailwheel nose-over. That baffled him, saying that this was wholly unrealistic.

On approaching bombers: in the war, he relied on being vectored in to determine his approach. On a head-on pass, one would try to damage the formation. Large formations would have trouble reforming after being disrupted. After the pass, a return would be made from the side or behind. When one would have a good target (i.e. no close-by other bombers that could fire) one'd *park on his 6 and pick off his engines*. He aslo says that real bombers would spray MG fire from the moment they saw you comin in, and in almost random directions. They'd have trouble tracking you and just put up curtains of fire. When approaching a flight of 4 B17s from high 7, he showed that you were pretty well-protected if you kept them all just hidden behind your cowling; either they'd hit your engine (und es ist nur Halbzollfeuer)or your Panzerglas, so you were quite safe. That is when he was PK'd at 700 meters with the first burst.

One thing he really missed was ground contact. Ground control would be constantly giving information on position, vector to be taken and enemy presence. Without it, he felt quite lost.

The AI was something of an irritation. Not only do they do suicidal things, but he tracked a P38, saying 'with this kind of maneuvering, he'll be dead tired soon and I can shoot him then'. It took some convincing that the AI never gets tired.

When flying the a8, most of the above applied. He likes the 30mm we have, saying it is more reliable than the real thing. The damage it does is not quite what he remembers. A hit in the fuselage would silence bomber gunners, and on engines it would be less effective than 20mm. It would destroy propellers, and loosen large chunks of skin though. De-skinning a wing would send a bomber into a spiral. With the a8, he would want to know in advance the location of Leichte Flak, and whenever he'd get pursued, he'd dive towards it. Flak accuracy in game is equal to Hitlerjugend operated Flak, if I understand him correctly. Good Flak would fire short, well-calculated bursts, with much higher accuracy than we have. His advice on dealing with AA is to keep speed up and not get in view too long. The trick was to be in and out before the gunners had readied and swivelled. After that, the fire was murderous.

Random observations: Lightnings turn wider in game than he remembers, and B17s go down too easily to cannon fire.

Rampenplan
03-02-2006, 10:32 AM
A friend of my family flew for the Luftwaffe in the war. He has a large amount of anecdotes about his time there, and I thought it would be educational to me to see how he would do in IL2.

It took a while to get him used to the controls, because he is not used to using computers. Also, he can't fly long before tiring his eyes. Apart from those things, he seems not to be overly interested in flightsimming and I suspect he did it mainly to please me.

He wanted to fly the Me262, 'because he wanted to know what it was like'. He got turned down when he applied to be transferred to jets, and I guess he's still curious. What I wanted was to see him fly the 109E and the 190A, which were his machines in the war. Is just sat to the side making notes and helping him with the keyboard. He was very impressed with the graphics in the game, his impressions of computers being calibrated on 'pong'.
After a number of testflights in a Finnish Brewster, to get him used to the controls, he started with the Emil. He had to get a bit used to the flight model. According to him, the real 109 was 'stiffer'. It would want to go in a straight line, and you'd have to work to get it to turn; relaxing the controls would very quickly return you to a straight line. The radius of turn and the turn speed were OK according to his recollection, but to do it often would require 'Riesenmuskeln'. My stick setup is already very stiff, so that must have been impressive. HE didn't turn much when at speed, mostly curving gently. The climb and acceleration were a bit optimistic according to him. Such climb should be possible, but only if you had the exact right 'feel for the wing', not just b puting the nose up. In fighting, he took a lot of time to get into position, and preferred to go for positions in which he had at least two seconds uninterrupted firing time. After that, he'd break off, even if the attack had failed to do damage. He'd shoot quite accurately, even with difficult deflection shots. However, if there was any indication he might be targeted by an enemy, he'd go fully into the defensive. Especially after he learned to mistrust his AI wingmen. Even during attack approaches, he'd be throwing his view all over the glass of the cockpit, and always on the widest available angle. When landing he'd be very careful, make a long approach and touching down straight, flaring and slow. Maybe because he spent a good few months in hospital in '40 after crashing his Emil on landing.

In the 190a4, his first remark was 'Warum gibt's kein Panzerglas?', and the second was about the ReVi being mounted too low. Front visibility was completely wrong, according to him. This was compounded by the flight attitude that should have been more tail-high. When gunning the engine for take-off, he jammed the stick into his crotch, and was very surprised when his tail started slipping sideways regardless. I locked his tailwheel manually thereafter, but he insisted that should also be more effective.

The first time he took off, he immediately landed because he thought his engine was running badly. I explained to him random engine trouble isn't modeled, but he has trouble seeing the extents of the simulation, expecting everything to be modeled that he can see.
Surprisingly, he doesn't think the E loss in curves is too much. Even more surprisingly, he thinks straight flight drag is too light (said while overshooting the runway with 600 km/h). Then he made remarks about the engine giving accurate performance when at high speed, but too little thrust at speeds lower than 350-400 km/h. One of his combat moves is a very rough near-stall high-speed turn, dropping a lot of speed, then accelerating - which last part doesn't happen. That annoyed him a bit.
He did like the maneuverability of the a4. The FW was nice to maneuver, because it was very light in the controls compared to the 109E. He was much more eager to pull violent moves in the FW. It was easy to pull the acing vector away from the heading vector. He did consider the rudder too 'sharp' though. That should have been less useful. Still, most maneuvers would be quite gradual. After a violent move, he'd often fire very short bursts from his wing guns. He said that was to stop them jamming.

In the 190, when confronted with roaming fighters, he'd refuse to engage. He'd just look for a different target. Quite different from my 'kill everyhin' approach. When attacked, he held his own, once making a very impressive aerobatic move: A Spit came in fast on his high 6, which was answered with a throttle cut and a clockwise barrel roll with a steep pull-up, ending up firing from almost-stall vertically down into the Spits cockpit. When I try, I crash.

He never liked flying against Spits. He said they could still give him nightmares. Once, when pursued by a cautious AI Spit, he suddenly started firing his wingguns into open space. When asked, he said you shouldn't have a bomb inside your wing when there's a Spit behind you. He was dumping his ammo.
He remembers viidly how his plane was hit with Hispano's. He says the little clunk we hear now is nothing compared to the shock, vibration and deafening noise of getting any part of the plane hit by 2cm. Rifle calibre would also make noise, but mainly when hitting something substantive, like armour, engine, or heavier stiffeners. When he fired upon a Lightning, and took off a wing and a boom with a single burst, he was quite surprised. He said it was very rare taking off large structural parts, but a lot of paneling should come off, and fires shoudl be more frequent. When it happened a few times more (wing shedding I mean) he said it was something you'd expect after a long wing fire, when carrying vulnerable ordnance, or when hit with 3cm a lot, but not otherwise. When landing the 190 the first time, he landed much more roughly than with the 109. After making touchdown, he jammed his stick back, causing the bouncing tailwheel nose-over. That baffled him, saying that this was wholly unrealistic.

On approaching bombers: in the war, he relied on being vectored in to determine his approach. On a head-on pass, one would try to damage the formation. Large formations would have trouble reforming after being disrupted. After the pass, a return would be made from the side or behind. When one would have a good target (i.e. no close-by other bombers that could fire) one'd *park on his 6 and pick off his engines*. He aslo says that real bombers would spray MG fire from the moment they saw you comin in, and in almost random directions. They'd have trouble tracking you and just put up curtains of fire. When approaching a flight of 4 B17s from high 7, he showed that you were pretty well-protected if you kept them all just hidden behind your cowling; either they'd hit your engine (und es ist nur Halbzollfeuer)or your Panzerglas, so you were quite safe. That is when he was PK'd at 700 meters with the first burst.

One thing he really missed was ground contact. Ground control would be constantly giving information on position, vector to be taken and enemy presence. Without it, he felt quite lost.

The AI was something of an irritation. Not only do they do suicidal things, but he tracked a P38, saying 'with this kind of maneuvering, he'll be dead tired soon and I can shoot him then'. It took some convincing that the AI never gets tired.

When flying the a8, most of the above applied. He likes the 30mm we have, saying it is more reliable than the real thing. The damage it does is not quite what he remembers. A hit in the fuselage would silence bomber gunners, and on engines it would be less effective than 20mm. It would destroy propellers, and loosen large chunks of skin though. De-skinning a wing would send a bomber into a spiral. With the a8, he would want to know in advance the location of Leichte Flak, and whenever he'd get pursued, he'd dive towards it. Flak accuracy in game is equal to Hitlerjugend operated Flak, if I understand him correctly. Good Flak would fire short, well-calculated bursts, with much higher accuracy than we have. His advice on dealing with AA is to keep speed up and not get in view too long. The trick was to be in and out before the gunners had readied and swivelled. After that, the fire was murderous.

Random observations: Lightnings turn wider in game than he remembers, and B17s go down too easily to cannon fire.

F6_Ace
03-02-2006, 10:41 AM
Very interesting and informative and maybe surprising to see a veteran give PF the thumbs up.

Also nice to see how a real pilot would always keep to the idea that they would be attacked at any moment when distracted by firing at the enemy. Quite unlike the PF pilots we know who have no care for their life.

TgD Thunderbolt56
03-02-2006, 11:14 AM
Very cool read. I've talked with a number of bomber pilots I know (from WWII and all B-24 jocks) and passively discussed the possibility of them stopping by my house for an observational spin. One of them had seen considerable action while two others said their late-war experiences were anti-climactic and all seemed indifferent. I'm sure they'll change their tune after a virtual ride though.

Nonetheless, nice post and very interesting. Thanks.


TB

TX-Zen
03-02-2006, 11:24 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif


Neat post, thanks!

gates123
03-02-2006, 11:31 AM
it doesnt get any better then that...thanks

Aviar
03-02-2006, 11:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The AI was something of an irritation. Not only do they do suicidal things, but he tracked a P38, saying 'with this kind of maneuvering, he'll be dead tired soon and I can shoot him then'. It took some convincing that the AI never gets tired. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That was my favorite part. Maybe one day we can have pilot fatigue as a feature.

Aviar

ReligiousZealot
03-02-2006, 11:48 AM
Very cool post http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

slipBall
03-02-2006, 11:58 AM
Real good read, thank's for that. I'm happy that your friend got a taste of what we, cannot live without.

shotdownski
03-02-2006, 12:01 PM
Great post. We should have a sticky for the observations made by real WWII pilots who try IL2/FB.

rnzoli
03-02-2006, 12:11 PM
I would like to know more about this wwII pilot - what's his name, where did he serve etc.

I am a bit cautious because of this:
Volkmar L√¬∂wenherz, WWII Luftwaffe 109 pilot, speaks about 4.01,
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m...511079443#8511079443 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/2911059443/r/8511079443#8511079443)

RocketDog
03-02-2006, 12:13 PM
Not sure I believe any of this. Much of it sounds like fantasy.

Cheers,

RocketDog.

Waldo.Pepper
03-02-2006, 12:15 PM
About time some skeptics showed up. Details please....proof would be nice.

TX-Zen
03-02-2006, 12:22 PM
Why do there need to be skeptics? Just enjoy the post for what it is, an entertaining read.

UKPsycho
03-02-2006, 12:30 PM
It's not the 1st of April yet guys!

Great read, thank you very much for sharing! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

rnzoli
03-02-2006, 12:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TX-Zen:
Why do there need to be skeptics? Just enjoy the post for what it is, an entertaining read. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Science fiction is entertaining too, but we never mix them up with documentaries. That's why.

edit: why is it a problem to be sceptic a little bit? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Willey
03-02-2006, 12:40 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

I'd like to know his opinion on the 262 then.

And a track of this "cut throttle, barrel roll etc" manoeuver would be brilliant http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

TX-Zen
03-02-2006, 12:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rnzoli:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TX-Zen:
Why do there need to be skeptics? Just enjoy the post for what it is, an entertaining read. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Science fiction is entertaining too, but we never mix them up with documentaries. That's why. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

All you cynics just need a hug, dontcha?

ploughman
03-02-2006, 12:43 PM
That's perhaps one of the most interesting things I've read on this forum abou this sim. I particularily liked this bit.

"A Spit came in fast on his high 6, which was answered with a throttle cut and a clockwise barrel roll with a steep pull-up, ending up firing from almost-stall vertically down into the Spits cockpit."

What utter mastership of his aircraft and also, I think, demonstrating how well modelled the Fw-190 is in this sim and, by association, how well modeled most other aircraft are for him to be able to pull that off 60 odd years later.

That was great.

rnzoli
03-02-2006, 12:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TX-Zen:
All you cynics just need a hug, dontcha? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif No, I get my fair share of hugs...
But seriously, with so many debates raging about conflicting pilot memoirs on aerial combat, real ww2 pilot opinion on this game is worth of gold. And this is exactly I am sceptic, considering the posters low post-count. That's nothing cynical, it's pure caution. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif

rnzoli
03-02-2006, 12:52 PM
The OP posted this about the pilot last November:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">A family friend (German) was a Bf109 pilot in France. He got no kills there (He swears that he never saw more skillful pilots than the French he fought there) until he broke his gear landing, flipped over and spent a year in hospital recovering from numerous fractures.
After being declared ready for mobilization again, he was assigned to a Geschwader flying FW190s. He fought tooth and nail to be reassigned to his old unit, but was ignored. He mistrusted the FW until he flew it in combat. Then he fell in love with it. He flew in the West. He fought bombers mostly, but later he was expected by his mates to mainly entertain the escort fighters. He got 41 'wreck kills', i.e. the wreck of his kill was found on the ground, but he swears he has killed more planes threefold. He had to parachute twice, land on country roads at least five times, and flew back in a total loss plane lots more. He said that 'the FW would bring you back home even if it was completely dead'. He was captured at the end of the war, and managed to avoid a long boring captivity by being selective with the truth. He claimed to have been schooled for the Me262, when he had merely flown escort for them taking off and landing. He was taken to an airfield in Britain, where for the first time he saw an airfield with every item the Luftwaffe prescribed for a fighter airbase. Including the BMW staff cars, coffee supplies, medicine cabinet, kitchen supplies, high-grade fuel, good beds...
He is very talkative, likes to go into detail (hard to shut him up about it, actually!), and formed my impression of how combat must have looked. I showed him IL2:FB. He was very impressed with the graphic detail, but less so with the flight model of the FW190.
He is a small, nice little well-dressed gentleman. He views the war as a large adventure, and doesn't like the thought that people got killed. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Quite consistent with his post today, which is good news.

TX-Zen
03-02-2006, 12:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rnzoli:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TX-Zen:
All you cynics just need a hug, dontcha? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif No, I get my fair share of hugs...
But seriously, with so many debates raging about conflicting pilot memoirs on aerial combat, real ww2 pilot opinion on this game is worth of gold. And this is exactly I am sceptic, considering the posters low post-count. That's nothing cynical, it's pure caution. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I got yer hug partner, don't be shy http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif


(Edit: forgot to add, other points taken in context, &lt;S&gt; )

russ.nl
03-02-2006, 01:14 PM
Nice read thanks http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif. So what did he think of the Me262?
When I read veteran stories it's like a movie being played in my head.

ploughman
03-02-2006, 01:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TX-Zen:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rnzoli:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TX-Zen:
All you cynics just need a hug, dontcha? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif No, I get my fair share of hugs...
But seriously, with so many debates raging about conflicting pilot memoirs on aerial combat, real ww2 pilot opinion on this game is worth of gold. And this is exactly I am sceptic, considering the posters low post-count. That's nothing cynical, it's pure caution. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I got yer hug partner, don't be shy http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif


(Edit: forgot to add, other points taken in context, &lt;S&gt; ) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, that's so Brokeback Mountain, sniff. You guys, how AM I ever going to quit you?

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/inlove.gif

TX-Zen
03-02-2006, 01:21 PM
lol

danjama
03-02-2006, 01:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ploughman:
That's perhaps one of the most interesting things I've read on this forum abou this sim. I particularily liked this bit.

"A Spit came in fast on his high 6, which was answered with a throttle cut and a clockwise barrel roll with a steep pull-up, ending up firing from almost-stall vertically down into the Spits cockpit."

What utter mastership of his aircraft and also, I think, demonstrating how well modelled the Fw-190 is in this sim and, by association, how well modeled most other aircraft are for him to be able to pull that off 60 odd years later.

That was great. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah i agree i really, really smiled at this bit! Its amazing that a simulation has helped this man "relive" his fighter experiences of some 60+ years ago! Quite an enchanting read, thanks for taking the time to post http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif

AKA_TAGERT
03-02-2006, 01:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Rampenplan:
Random observations: Lightnings turn wider in game than he remembers, and B17s go down too easily to cannon fire. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Rampenplan:
According to him, the real 109 was 'stiffer'. It would want to go in a straight line, and you'd have to work to get it to turn; relaxing the controls would very quickly return you to a straight line. The radius of turn and the turn speed were OK according to his recollection, but to do it often would require 'Riesenmuskeln' </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Strange, he must be mistaken, in that many of the sim 109 experts *here* say otherwise. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

PS what version was he flying? 4.04 or 4.03?

Gibbage1
03-02-2006, 01:52 PM
I like the part about clearing his wing guns before he gets hit. Matches up with what I see in Guncam footage of FW's wing exploding.

AKA_TAGERT
03-02-2006, 01:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gibbage1:
I like the part about clearing his wing guns before he gets hit. Matches up with what I see in Guncam footage of FW's wing exploding. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Too bad the DM does not modle the down side of explosive tip ammo, than we could be using the 108s as wing land mines! &lt;G&gt;

faustnik
03-02-2006, 02:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gibbage1:
I like the part about clearing his wing guns before he gets hit. Matches up with what I see in Guncam footage of FW's wing exploding. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Too bad the DM does not modle the down side of explosive tip ammo, than we could be using the 108s as wing land mines! &lt;G&gt; </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

190s with Mk108s had armored ammo boxes, but, even Mg151 minengeschoss ammo would have made a huge bang. I'm sure hispano ammo and even .50 cal would react well to being hit with an HE round either.

CD_kp84yb
03-02-2006, 02:43 PM
Its not the explosiv tips that blow up, its the propellant in the cases that is the scary part. When one is hit and it starts to burn the rest follows.

Now this .30 call had some troubles, the case without its rearend (where normaly the primer sits) fired the other by its heat of the flame, you see the result , just 2 x .30 cook off.

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f163/cd_kp84yb/1919A203020Cal20MG.jpg

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f163/cd_kp84yb/Bent203020Cal.jpg

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f163/cd_kp84yb/Blown20Casings.jpg

so to be short where there is ammo (propellant) in a box or beld (locked up in wing or nosesection) and the **** hits the fan its end of story.

Maybe thats why you get the message "gun jammed"

tagTaken2
03-02-2006, 03:31 PM
Thanks for that (giving benefit of the doubt, going to assume you're not pushing a barrow http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif), I was spellbound.

Setup details would be nice?

ploughman
03-02-2006, 03:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by CD_kp84yb:
Its not the explosiv tips that blow up, its the propellant in the cases that is the scary part. When one is hit and it starts to burn the rest follows.

Now this .30 call had some troubles, the case without its rearend (where normaly the primer sits) fired the other by its heat of the flame, you see the result , just 2 x .30 cook off.

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f163/cd_kp84yb/1919A203020Cal20MG.jpg

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f163/cd_kp84yb/Bent203020Cal.jpg

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f163/cd_kp84yb/Blown20Casings.jpg

so to be short where there is ammo (propellant) in a box or beld (locked up in wing or nosesection) and the **** hits the fan its end of story.

Maybe thats why you get the message "gun jammed" </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not sure about that. Linked or magazined ammo was worn on the chest by infantrymen not only for utility, but also to provide rudimentary 'armour' against rifle calibre rounds. I've read more than one acccount where incoming bullets have been deflected by live ammunition and the effect has not been the the catastrophic destruction of the rest of the ammunition. I thought the whole point of ammunition in cartridges was that it would not fratricidally explode.

TgD Thunderbolt56
03-02-2006, 03:50 PM
This poster didn't seem to me to be trying to validate nor discredit anything. Whether you want to believe it or not is up to you. I fly this sim for vicarious reasons and if nothing else the original post fuels MY flying fanatsy.

That's enough for me.


TB

han freak solo
03-02-2006, 03:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ploughman:

I'm not sure about that. Linked or magazined ammo was worn on the chest by infantrymen not only for utility, but also to provide rudimentary 'armour' against rifle calibre rounds. I've read more than one acccount where incoming bullets have been deflected by live ammunition and the effect has not been the the catastrophic destruction of the rest of the ammunition. I thought the whole point of ammunition in cartridges was that it would not fratricidally explode. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Luck and a false sense of security.

See http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot9.htm

Bearcat99
03-02-2006, 04:28 PM
Very nice post.. interesting about the climb rate on the 109 and the sight on the 190.... also the B-17s and lightnings... also the acceleration part...

Can you give us more info about him? If he doesnt mind of course... Tell him there is a community of "kids" in here who admire all those pilots and any info he could give us wouyld be great. What would really be cool would be if you could get him on a TS server one night. See if he has any pictures....

T_O_A_D
03-02-2006, 04:43 PM
Good read,

You got track, God I hope you recorded his flights. Them alone would be worth so much, to me along with his identity, to go along with them.

It would immortalize him or any of the vets, in our PC world to boot, there RL worthyness.

danjama
03-02-2006, 04:45 PM
Yeah man id make them into MPG's so i would never lose them!

huggy87
03-02-2006, 08:11 PM
Great post. It seems that veterans as they get very old and near their end really open up with some great candid stories they would not have shared earlier. I know both of my grandfather's and some other older friends have sure opened up in the last few years.

repoman11
03-02-2006, 08:14 PM
I'd greatly hope that Maddox and company take advantage of this sort of feedback from WW-2 veterans whenever possible. In order to make a good thing even better.

slo_1_2_3
03-02-2006, 08:53 PM
that was very cool read sounds like a cool guy http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

elphifou
03-02-2006, 09:21 PM
Same here, I found this post really interesting and touching http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
I just hope I wasn't fooled...

Flying_Nutcase
03-02-2006, 10:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TgD Thunderbolt56:
This poster didn't seem to me to be trying to validate nor discredit anything. Whether you want to believe it or not is up to you. I fly this sim for vicarious reasons and if nothing else the original post fuels MY flying fanatsy.

That's enough for me.


TB </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Precisely! I found it really interesting, especially his instinctive responses to various situations.

Thx for posting this Rampenplan. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

F6_Ace
03-03-2006, 01:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Rampenplan:
However, if there was any indication he might be targeted by an enemy, he'd go fully into the defensive. Especially after he learned to mistrust his AI wingmen. Even during attack approaches, he'd be throwing his view all over the glass of the cockpit, and always on the widest available angle. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You mean they did not have F6 in those days? No wonder so many aces were shot down.

HQ1
03-03-2006, 07:36 AM
Hi very Curious, What version did he fly? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

CD_kp84yb
03-03-2006, 07:49 AM
quote:

I'm not sure about that. Linked or magazined ammo was worn on the chest by infantrymen not only for utility, but also to provide rudimentary 'armour' against rifle calibre rounds. I've read more than one acccount where incoming bullets have been deflected by live ammunition and the effect has not been the the catastrophic destruction of the rest of the ammunition. I thought the whole point of ammunition in cartridges was that it would not fratricidally explode.

end of quote

Well the brass case doesnt stop a bullet , its thin and cant stop the power of burning propellant when its not in the chamber of a cannon, MG,riffle whatever.Brass transport heat very fast.
Now what the owner of that MG thinks what happened, is that a bullet got stuck in the barrel, the next rounds fires and both the bullets leave the barrel, but the pressure gets too high, so when the breeche is going backwards, the pressure rips the back of the case (its not in the chamber anymore) the hot gasses fuses the next round in the belt. Result damaged MG.

The link someone gave where they shoot at magazine, is a good one, but mind you that where normal bullets not like API or bullets with some kind off HE content. When those lite up in a box or belt (locked in a wing or a nose, mind this) then you are in trouble, cos you get maybe 4 cases or more blown at the same time, the rest follows in a fraction and in a big kaboom.


We had a few years back a Fireworks factory burning (Enschede) there where storages on fire with alot off fireworks and other explosions, ONE storage didnt burn but was heated up by the storages beside him, after a while the temp became critical, and ..... A huge blast followed a entire block of houses and the facory was whiped out,People thought it was a huge bomb and that the storage containt military ammo. Nope just firework.

Thats is the power of a cook off, the pressure of the fast burning propellant cant blow up tanks,wing . Now when you see the Abrams tank, it has the ammo box sepperated from the crew, the loader push a button and a hatch opens, ammo comes out ,hatch closes. This ammo storage has overpressure hatches, so when the ammo gets hit not much would happen (crew not killed cos the turret wont blow up) cos the burning propellant cant build up pressure


cheers back to topic

Zoom2136
03-03-2006, 08:29 AM
Very good read I just hopped that my grandmother (yes grandmother) was still around... she flew spitfires/hurricains and bombers as a RAF ferry pilot... she passed in 99 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Scen
03-03-2006, 10:34 AM
I'm sure a lot of his observations about the feel of a particular plane is heavily influenced by the Stick setup. There is a lot of feedback missing when flying a computer games for obvious reasons.

Interesting comment he made about landing the FW190 and pulling the stick back in your lap... That comes from flying tail draggers period. You need to have that tail on the deck so you have directional control.

I can only guess but it sounds like he might have been doing a basic landing instead of a wheel landing which are much harder in real life than in the sim because of ground effect. You have to drive the plane onto the ground and stick your mains. The sim is much more forgiving but it does model bouncing which is impressive.

Nice read.

Grendel-B
03-03-2006, 10:39 AM
Rampen, A good writeup. May I however ask for a reference to confirm his identity, that this is a real person? As there has been number of "falsifications" earlier. A photo, name?

TgD Thunderbolt56
03-03-2006, 11:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Grendel-B:
..reference to confirm his identity, that this is a real person? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


While it would be cool, again, I ask...WHY? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Grendel-B
03-03-2006, 11:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TgD Thunderbolt56:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Grendel-B:
..reference to confirm his identity, that this is a real person? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


While it would be cool, again, I ask...WHY? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mmm? I think the bit you quoted already contains answer to your question.

falling-bird
03-03-2006, 12:32 PM
Really interesting. Any chance of recording tracks and setting them up for download somewhere?

Covino
03-03-2006, 01:04 PM
I agree with the fact that structural failures in this game are far too common, especially with the historically tougher aircraft. Should be more fires, leaking of various fluids, and direct engine damage.

rnzoli
03-03-2006, 01:06 PM
... and more injuries to pilots. Getting wounded ligthly or seriously is very unlikely. You either die instantly, or nothing happens, even though your plane is like swiss cheese. Seems totally unrealistic.

ploughman
03-03-2006, 01:13 PM
Actually that'd be sort of cool. There are lots of "there was this very loud bang and next thing I know I'm 16,000ft lower in an inverted spin" stories from pilots. As it is, once the red mist descends in FB you're screwed.

Hawgdog
03-03-2006, 01:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Rampenplan:
he jammed the stick into his crotch, </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Huh?
How big is the joystick you are using, or did he stuff the joystick into his crotch while sitting in front of your computer?

regards-

BlitzPig_DDT
03-03-2006, 02:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TgD Thunderbolt56:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Grendel-B:
..reference to confirm his identity, that this is a real person? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


While it would be cool, again, I ask...WHY? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well..... what if the original poster is just taking the piss?

He hasn't bothered to respond again. He *may* well be sitting back and laughing at all of us.

danjama
03-03-2006, 02:10 PM
So what if he is, i say let him laugh, fake or not, it is great to believe its real!

LeOs.K_Walstein
03-03-2006, 02:22 PM
Hi, Rampenplan!

If your writing is true, put it in a safe, because generations yet to come are going to look for it! If that happened what you described in your writing, you have written down a piece of living history.

Very interesting read, thanks,
Wallstein

codeseven7
03-03-2006, 02:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TgD Thunderbolt56:
This poster didn't seem to me to be trying to validate nor discredit anything. Whether you want to believe it or not is up to you. I fly this sim for vicarious reasons and if nothing else the original post fuels MY flying fanatsy.

That's enough for me.


TB </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I totally agree.


codeseven

Tachyon1000
03-04-2006, 12:58 AM
Tracks!!! My god, man, tracks!!!! Please tell me that the original poster recorded this veteran's performance. It would be very instructive in my estimation.

Enforcer572005
03-04-2006, 01:43 AM
while this would be fascinating if true (and it may very well be), there has just been too much nonsense wiht fake posts in the past to take this on face value. When i interviewed the 40mm gunner on the CVE sangamon, he had no problem wiht me posting his name, and i was able to illustrate what he was talking about wiht naval archives stuff.

it shouldnt be that tuff to do.

and it IS important to know if its true or not. I want accurate info, not to feel like ive been talking to some chick.....opps, sorry about the non PC comment http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

Accuracy is too important to be tainted by false info, so id like to know more about this pilot. If its true, i appreciate the post, but its of limited value as long as its veracity is so unsupported.

nsu
03-04-2006, 02:05 AM
Hi Rampenplan

please:

which unit (Jagdgeschwader) was it?
has it a "Flugbuch" ?

Gruß NSU http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

RocketDog
03-04-2006, 02:48 AM
Oh come on guys, just read the original post again. It's obviously completely made up. Rampenplan is either a very sad person or is winding you up as a joke.

I think we should start a new thread for the memories of other imaginary fighter pilots.

Cheers,

RocketDog.

Bartolomeo_ita
03-04-2006, 03:05 AM
is it fake?

if it is not: salut~

FoolTrottel
03-04-2006, 03:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RocketDog:
Oh come on guys, just read the original post again. It's obviously completely made up. Rampenplan is either a very sad person or is winding you up as a joke.
(..)
RocketDog. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Read his contribution (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/26310683/r/2581049373#2581049373) to the Is there anyone in your family who fought in WW2? (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/26310683/r/26310683#26310683) thread.
The last paragraph.

slipBall
03-04-2006, 03:50 AM
The plot thickens http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

Read his contribution (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/26310683/r/2581049373#2581049373) to the Is there anyone in your family who fought in WW2? (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/26310683/r/26310683#26310683) thread.
The last paragraph.[/QUOTE]

CD_kp84yb
03-04-2006, 04:07 AM
Lol

ok when reading one post its shows 41 kills.

http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/aces.html (http://www.csd.uwo.ca/%7Epettypi/elevon/aces.html)

Rudolf Klemm 42 WWII Germany
Emil Reinhard 42 WWII Germany
Herbert Schramm 42 WWII Germany
Werner Baake 41(night) WWII Germany
Heinz Bretnuetz 39(2 Spain) WWII Germany
Leopold Fellerer 41(39 night) WWII Germany
Ludwig Meister 41(night) WWII Germany
Robert Olejnik 41 WWII Germany
Johannes Schmidt 41 WWII Germany
Gerhard Schneider 41 WWII Germany
Heinz Arnold 40 WWII Germany
Karl Boehm-Fettelbach 40 WWII Germany
Peter Bremer 40

only 3 names shows up with 41 kills.

wich one is it ????


cheers

Lowendal
03-04-2006, 04:17 AM
Very important to know I think :
Which version of the game was used for the test ??
4.04 ?

RocketDog
03-04-2006, 04:18 AM
We are indeed lucky. One of the highest scoring aces of WWII knows Mr total-of-six-posts Rampenplan and had a go at flying IL-2. I particularly liked the bit where our ace fired off his wing cannon ammo when chased by a Spitfire. I believe that happened a lot in real life http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif.

Cheers,

RocketDog.

PS - am I the only one who remembers when someone posted up at SimHQ claiming to be a flyer with the (IIRC) Confederate Airforce and proceeded to pass comment on all the PF flight models? It suckered me for about an hour. It turned out he also claimed to be a Navy SEAL and quite a few other things. It was either a sad fantasy or a wind up or a bit of both. Same here.

CD_kp84yb
03-04-2006, 04:29 AM
Good one rocketdog,

Now we say he tested version 3 4 or 4.03 4.04. So the guy must be still alive, who of all the aces is still alive in the year 2004 ,2005 2006 . that will lower the number of pilots imho

For the firing the guns when being chased , i remembered they also did that to give the impression to the chaser that he could fire backwards (lol) i had read it somewhere.

But i realy like to know who he is.

slipBall
03-04-2006, 04:30 AM
Sad to say for most of us, who wanted to believe. And felt a connection with this man, who had lived our dreams so long ago.
I may have been hoodwinked! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif or maybe not http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

BSS_Goat
03-04-2006, 05:16 AM
I was Spetsnaz........ and a cosmonaut.
http://www.jsc.nasa.gov/Bios/images/cosmonauts.jpg

BSS_Goat
03-04-2006, 05:23 AM
Oh and a SEAL.....

carguy_
03-04-2006, 06:20 AM
Seeing few fake posts recently,I have tough time believing it.

joeap
03-04-2006, 06:21 AM
No I'm a seal. Lier.


I flew a Sea Harrier during the Falklands war too. So the Spit FM is right on target for me.

BSS_Goat
03-04-2006, 06:30 AM
Ya'll should see me whip @ss in the Call of Duty.....then you would KNOW I'm the REAL DEAL!

danjama
03-04-2006, 08:48 AM
You people are dickheads

Chuck_Older
03-04-2006, 09:06 AM
I think I know why there's no name

If the old gentleman even knows about the large group of people online who discuss these things to death, my feeling is that he asked to have his name with-held, specifically

The reason being, that he thinks you, I, and everyone else who posts online is as full of sh*t as the broken pay toilet at a Texas chili-eating contest

...and he's probably wise to think it

BSS_Goat
03-04-2006, 09:07 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/sadeyes.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif

darelc
03-04-2006, 09:29 AM
great post (nice english for a non english writer!). I don't know why you are all doubting, I think it is 100% genuine http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

SnapdLikeAMutha
03-04-2006, 09:36 AM
I want to believe

Assuming it is kosher, the one thing that struck me the most was how much the instinctive reflex actions stuck with him - like dumping his shells when chased by a Spit

I guess you never really forget the little details that save your life, even after 60 years

Jetbuff
03-04-2006, 10:13 AM
What's the fascination about being so insulting on these boards? I have my doubts too about the authenticity of this account but chose to withhold them because:
a) it was fascinating regardless
b) there's little chance of proving it either way
c) who frickin' cares if it's fake or not; it's not like the FM/DM are going to be changed to conform to this pilot's expectations (it takes a lot more than that to convince Oleg, thank goodness!)

Chill pills, aisle 3, on the right... oh and they come in an economy container.

BlitzPig_DDT
03-04-2006, 10:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jetbuff:
c) who frickin' cares if it's fake or not; it's not like the FM/DM are going to be changed to conform to this pilot's expectations (it takes a lot more than that to convince Oleg, thank goodness!) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It matters because if it's fake, and it hooks people (which it is - hooking people), it can cause enough of an uproar to get things changed, possibly in a detrimental (non-realistic) way.

And don't think it wouldn't. The history of patches has shown that there IS an effect of mass whinning/badgering, on all sides.

carguy_
03-04-2006, 12:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jetbuff:
What's the fascination about being so insulting on these boards? I have my doubts too about the authenticity of this account but chose to withhold them because:
a) it was fascinating regardless
b) there's little chance of proving it either way
c) who frickin' cares if it's fake or not; it's not like the FM/DM are going to be changed to conform to this pilot's expectations (it takes a lot more than that to convince Oleg, thank goodness!)

Chill pills, aisle 3, on the right... oh and they come in an economy container. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


OWNAGE!

Targ
03-04-2006, 01:17 PM
I can say that he has not visited the forums since he posted this and that he is indeed where he says he is fromhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Perhaps he will post back, perhaps not.
Great read either way and thanks!

rnzoli
03-04-2006, 01:19 PM
There's always a benefit of doubt. Where beliefs start, knowledge ends. I would like to know, if this story is true or not, just out of curiosity. If it's made up, fine with me, I don't depend of fairy tales for feeling good about IL2. Neither do you.

The reasons why I am seriously confused about this story are these:
- the original poster wrote about this man months ago. I remember his post, because I was posting in the same thread closely behind him, so it's not some invisible editing later on
- the post is not particularly biased, some things are good, some other aren't, good balance.

So it could be a real story, however, however, given our known struggle with graphics issues, joystick sensitivity issues, wobbling, lack of depth vision, lack of middle-ear sensation, FOV and view direction problems, I have a hard time to believe that an 80+ old man can jump behind a PC and shoot a Spitfire just like he did in his real life. Sounds cool to me as well, but also a bit far streched.

The silence of the OP is also worrying me. If I could bring a story like this from real life, I would spend the next 5 days at the keyboard, trying to answer all questions and enjoy my time-slot for celebrity. But we are still waiting to hear from him, hopefully not for long.

CD_kp84yb
03-04-2006, 01:34 PM
Hmmm i know people who were in indonesia ( former colleges) one was always babling about it (ex marine) the other was also there and fought. The last one only spoke one time about what he has seen and done, so he was realy in the thick of it he realy hated to speak about it. He descriped how the enemy came across the field and tried to climb over the barbwire , he pulled the trigger of his MP and he said they fell like a bag of sand and hung in the barbwire, like i said this was the only time he spoke about it. the exmarine i doubt if he has seen anything maybe he was doing latrines.

Cos war is like hell and you dont wanna be remind of it the guy told me

Ugly_Kid
03-04-2006, 02:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jetbuff:
What's the fascination about being so insulting on these boards? I have my doubts too about the authenticity of this account but chose to withhold them because:
a) it was fascinating regardless
b) there's little chance of proving it either way
c) who frickin' cares if it's fake or not; it's not like the FM/DM are going to be changed to conform to this pilot's expectations (it takes a lot more than that to convince Oleg, thank goodness!)

Chill pills, aisle 3, on the right... oh and they come in an economy container. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly, most of the replies here are a pretty good reason not to share anything authentic - ever. Maybe he's a guy who has a life and better things to do than argue here - lot of the flamers obviously don't - in his case I would not bother posting further stuff, never mind how genuine. Sure as h3ll I would not post the old man's name or any info if there's one, under any circumstances.

ploughman
03-04-2006, 02:39 PM
Most of the replies (way more than 50%) are accepting of the original post and are involved in talking about it not doubting it. The majority of people on this forum are dedicated enthusiasts who sometimes get overheated whilst overcome by passion, nothing more. Coming on here and denigrating the whole community or those who've participated in this thread is unjust.

I woulnd't advise the old gent to post his identity on here anymore than I'd post my own, except in PMs to people I wanted to know individually.

I thought the post was fascinating.

rnzoli
03-04-2006, 03:23 PM
At least the OP could answer a few practical questions, like which version the veteran flew etc. Or is that also taboo? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

NOTploughman
03-04-2006, 03:26 PM
I'd like to hear lots of technical details, we're pretty much agreed on the general information but it's the details where we seem to need some guidance.

Bartolomeo_ita
03-04-2006, 03:30 PM
me262... against spit, sure http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Jetbuff
03-04-2006, 04:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BlitzPig_DDT:
The history of patches has shown that there IS an effect of mass whinning/badgering, on all sides. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Of course, you are right. But I gotta run... my new, unobstructed gunsight, 1.42 ata rated 190A4 is waiting for me. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

BlitzPig_DDT
03-04-2006, 05:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jetbuff:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BlitzPig_DDT:
The history of patches has shown that there IS an effect of mass whinning/badgering, on all sides. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Of course, you are right. But I gotta run... my new, unobstructed gunsight, 1.42 ata rated 190A4 is waiting for me. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

I might have called out the dogs if I mentioned that the tendency to listen to the noise leaned to the red side. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

I do remember a certain La5FN being fixed for one patch, and one patch only, and a short lived one at that. The uproar it created (not necessarily here) caused a quick patch to restore it to it's former ridiculous BS UFO-self. It's not come back down since. (Hence La5FN is pronounced Laughin')

Other things too, like the UFOrsair being over the top and somehow having better guns than the Hellcat that are easier to hit with (nevermind that you can miraculously see better *over* the nose of the ensign eliminator than you can over the Ace Maker)

El Turo
03-04-2006, 08:59 PM
Who's down with OPP?

Good story and read, whether real or ficticious.. despite how difficult it may be to swallow for an 80 year old dude to immediately own the skies in a PC simulation.

rnzoli
03-05-2006, 02:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">how difficult it may be to swallow for an 80 year old dude to immediately own the skies in a PC simulation </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Owning the real skies and the virtual skies is a huge difference and requires different skills.

We have yearly competitions in Lock On and Pacific Fighters categories. The real fighter pilots came to 3rd or 5th place so far in Lock On. The competition is also attended by former Me-109 pilots from ww2, but they don't fly the simulation anymore. But interestingly, when they start telling stories, we feel like we have also flown that mission already in IL2... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

KOM.Nausicaa
03-05-2006, 05:48 AM
The post is an excellent read, and it sounds very believable, especially the details about instinctive reaction, like dumping ammo etc. Reading the post I would say it's genuine.

But on the other hand I know very well how few pilots are left, and 40+ scores even less.

I want to believe this story. Please give us a bit more info on your family friend. Give us a name, a squadron, or/and a picture with you and him. Seeing that it's someone close to your family that should be possible...

But I give you that the post doesn't sound like being a mock-up. There are too many too good details in it and the language isn't overly excited or anything, and it doesn't claim anything in the sim to be wrong or true in any shrill way or so. For the moment I give it the credit of being true. It would be outstanding to get some kind of "proof".


Please give us something more to believe it. If you do, this post would be truely "historic".


Naus

AKA_TAGERT
03-05-2006, 10:10 AM
I wouldnt dicount it based on the guys age alone, 80 is old but there are alot of guys in thier 80s that can still manage a PC. Heck there are guys in thier 90s still flying real spitfires

Alex Henshaw, the chief test pilot during WWII. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/hampshire/4775726.stm)

Thus I dont see a PC being harder than that.

Daniel_Dravet
03-05-2006, 10:23 AM
Alex Henshaw wrote Sigh for a Merlin, his memoirs of his time as the Chief Test Pilot for the Castle Bromwhich factory in Brimingham, England. In addition to Spits, the plant also built Lancasters and was bombed frequently. Although a civilian employee of (I think) Vickers Armstrong, Henshaw flew CAP for his factory on several occassions. If you want to know about Spitfires, his Sigh for a Merlin is required reading. There is nothing this guy didn't know about Spits, he and his team had to air certify every plane that came off the production line. He has a particularily interesting angle on Spit MK VIIIs in Northern Australia too.

BaldieJr
03-05-2006, 11:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I suspect he did it mainly to please me. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


You guys and your pretend airplanes. Try not to bother folks.

james_ander
03-06-2006, 07:38 PM
Well, this winter, Chuck Yeager came over to watch the Superbowl. As usual, the Superbowl was boring as hell, so after a few beers I fired up the PC and said, "Hey, Chuck, check this out....

Oh never mind, I can't pull it off...but I had you all going for awhile!!

BTW, it was a fun read, I don't care if it's fake or not. It's better than reading posts bickering about flight models. They are a real snore.

BigKahuna_GS
03-06-2006, 09:39 PM
S!

Terrific read, sounds genuine.
Thank you for posting !

I thought this was interesting also :

Random observations: Lightnings turn wider in game than he remembers, and B17s go down too easily to cannon fire.

__

Bearcat99
03-07-2006, 08:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BlitzPig_DDT:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jetbuff:
c) who frickin' cares if it's fake or not; it's not like the FM/DM are going to be changed to conform to this pilot's expectations (it takes a lot more than that to convince Oleg, thank goodness!) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It matters because if it's fake, and it hooks people (which it is - hooking people), it can cause enough of an uproar to get things changed, possibly in a detrimental (non-realistic) way.

And don't think it wouldn't. The history of patches has shown that there IS an effect of mass whinning/badgering, on all sides. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not on all sides..... or else we wouldnt have the Mustangs we do. It took a major effort by SC and Eagle among many many others just to get the Jug to even roll tighter than a B-17 remember.

Grendel-B
03-07-2006, 12:02 PM
No confirmation/validation yet. Too bad. The original story was nice, but without a reference it falls into the urban myth / nice story category. With a reference it could be a very interesting historical comparison.

For many it doesn't matter if the story was real or not, but for us who care about historical matters, historical accuracy and prefer facts, self-made myths are very bad. They distort people's views and cause inaccuracies.

Just to give a comparison, here are few instances when I've had WW2 pilots test fly simulators. See: names and pics. I can prove these cases. If I'd describe the events here you'd have actual proof that it has happened.

http://www.virtualpilots.fi/hist/kuvat/ww2history-oulu-vieraat1.jpg
Raimo Sallanko, Esko Tervo and Kauko Kauppila, bomber pilots.

http://www.virtualpilots.fi/hist/kuvat/ww2history-oulu-online1s.jpg
Mr. Eino Estama, Blenheim/Ju-88/Me 109 pilot

http://www.virtualpilots.fi/feature/photoreports/ilmailuharrastepaivat2001/herrat006t.jpg
Mr. Ky√¬∂sti Karhila, Curtiss Hawk 75 / Me 109 fighter ace, 32 victories

http://www.virtualpilots.fi/feature/photoreports/ilmailuharrastepaivat2001/herrat017t.jpg
Mr. Hemmo Leino, Morane-Saulnier 406 / Me 109 fighter ace, 21 victories

http://www.virtualpilots.fi/feature/cons/urbanblitz02/kuvat/blitz02/aho_kaarrossa.jpg
Mr. Kauko Aho, Blenheim pilot

http://www.virtualpilots.fi/feature/cons/urbanblitz03/day2-vieraat04t.jpg
Mr. Erkki Pakarinen, Brewster & Me 109 pilot

rnzoli
03-07-2006, 12:28 PM
Grendel, wow, this is cool! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

I can see they got some introduction first and didn't go down with the complications of TrackIR stuff.

Until we wait for confirmation from the OP, can you tell what the veterans on your pics were saying/commenting? Which version did they try?

Sturm_Williger
03-07-2006, 12:48 PM
So if they could do it, is it such a stretch that one more LW pilot has had a go and mentioned a few things ?

rnzoli
03-07-2006, 01:31 PM
No, it's not such a big stretch, but please mind the difference: the above guys have pics and names, but there is nothing like this in the original post.

jds1978
03-07-2006, 01:38 PM
Grendel: I want to be a fly on that wall...great post!

CornbreadPattie
03-07-2006, 01:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">http://www.virtualpilots.fi/feature/cons/urbanblitz02/kuvat/blitz02/aho_kaarrossa.jpg
Mr. Kauko Aho, Blenheim pilot </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Which sim is this?

Grendel-B
03-07-2006, 02:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sturm_Williger:
So if they could do it, is it such a stretch that one more LW pilot has had a go and mentioned a few things ? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Did "one more LW pilot" have a go?

There's only the story so far. No confirmation. No proof that it did indeed happen. There's been enough such fabrications before, that any claims "a vet tried thsi sim and said this and that" are suspicious unless there is some proof.

The story is nice and I'd indeed like to believe it, but there must be proof before I file it from "most likely fabrication" to "excellent historical viewpoint".

That's the difference between "I want to believe gamers" and us "we need a source historicians".

I don't mean to offend Rampenplan by any means, but if the story and person could be verified, I could then use that bit as factual "first hand account", as a source, for example in some later article about flight sims and their realism/feeling. It would make excellent piece. I could fabricate nice stories all I can if I would like to, but I prefer true, verified facts and tales.

Grendel-B
03-07-2006, 02:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"><BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by CornbreadPattie:
Mr. Kauko Aho, Blenheim pilot </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Which sim is this? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

World War II Online. It has a flyable Blenheim.

The computer sticks do give trouble to the old gents, who are used to a robust stick that is on the plane floor, but some get used to those sooner than others. Notice how he holds the joystick with both hands, making sure he can control the plane in a steel turn.

Mr. Pakarinen flew FB and analyzed that it can be well used as a training tool. The other gents flew WW2OL, WarBirds, Aces High, depending where we were. Mr. Estama liked the modeling of WarBirds Ju-88 and gave it a flight online, too.

jds1978
03-07-2006, 02:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The computer sticks do give trouble to the old gents, who are used to a robust stick that is on the plane floor, but some get used to those sooner than others. Notice how he holds the joystick with both hands, making sure he can control the plane in a steel turn. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

i noticed that...old habits die hard

IV_JG51_Prien
03-07-2006, 03:58 PM
Good read. I will go on the "believeable" side of the fence myself. Some of you and your 'gotta have pics names etc' as valid "Proof" need to get off your high horses and jump off a pier.

According to you guys, unless I were to produce a picture, a name, a unit, and a time and place of occouring events the conversation I had with a Tiger Tank commander I met at a community party when I was in high school never happened.. Everything he said was imagined, and I'm a sucker.

He's dead now, I don't remember his name, and that party was 10 years ago.

Not everybody wants personal information slammed all over a internet message board. Privacy is something many people still hold dear. If I was in his shoes I don't think I'd agree to have my photo and a little personal information posted up on the net just to appease a couple of desktop skeptics.

slipBall
03-07-2006, 04:10 PM
Nice post Grendel-B. I bet that you heard some great story's from those gentleman

Grendel-B
03-07-2006, 04:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by IV_JG51_Prien:
He's dead now, I don't remember his name, and that party was 10 years ago.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I can't help you, if you don't manage to make the difference between an event that happened a decade ago, and another that supposedly took place a few days ago, with the presumed participants alive and available for a verification.

I can.

elphifou
03-07-2006, 04:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by IV_JG51_Prien:
According to you guys, unless I were to produce a picture, a name, a unit, and a time and place of occouring events the conversation I had with a Tiger Tank commander I met at a community party when I was in high school never happened.. Everything he said was imagined, and I'm a sucker.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes. If you're my good ol'buddy and you're telling me such a story, I believe you. Now this is a public forum and I have no such friend here.
Many things in my life happened that were so weird you would never believe them unless you knew me well. IMO this is perfectly understandable.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">If I was in his shoes I don't think I'd agree to have my photo and a little personal information posted up on the net just to appease a couple of desktop skeptics. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I understand this 100%. But the OP hasn't shown up again since he posted that nice account. We're bound to make assumptions about who, what, when, why and how, and he/she doesn't seem to give a d*** about it.
Call me a desktop skeptic then.

Xiolablu3
03-07-2006, 05:40 PM
Grendal, can you get them to try FB/PF?

If you have already then what are their opinions on it?

I am REALLY interested on what they thought. Do you have a page where I can view their thoughts?

I am not too interested in WW2 online because I have never played it, unfortunatly.

VOL_Hans
03-07-2006, 05:44 PM
Interesting read for sure!
You mentioned that the monitor hurt his eyes, perhaps you could try changing resolutions. I belive that on a large monitor a low resolution will make everything look kinda bubble magnified, if a bit grainy.

rnzoli
03-08-2006, 01:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by IV_JG51_Prien:
I will go on the "believeable" side of the fence myself. Some of you and your 'gotta have pics names etc' as valid "Proof" need to get off your high horses and jump off a pier. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
If you aim your personal attack at me as well, please remember that I didn't discredit the story, but I reserved the right to doubt it due to lack of sufficient underpinning with background information.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by IV_JG51_Prien:
According to you guys, unless I were to produce a picture, a name, a unit, and a time and place of occouring events the conversation I had with a Tiger Tank commander I met at a community party when I was in high school never happened. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
It could have happened all right, but if you can't remember those details, it will also cast some shadow on the accuracy on your account, in case you want to present the content of that conversation for public discussions. That's fairly natural reaction, don't be offended by that.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by IV_JG51_Prien:
Everything he said was imagined, and I'm a sucker. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I don't know where you get this nonsense. Not from this thread, and not from my posts I guess. Then why do you get carried away? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by IV_JG51_Prien:
Not everybody wants personal information slammed all over a internet message board. Privacy is something many people still hold dear. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Anything that gives a bit of more background to the story would move the hesitants to believe the story with higher probability.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by IV_JG51_Prien:
If I was in his shoes I don't think I'd agree to have my photo and a little personal information posted up on the net just to appease a couple of desktop skeptics </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
The original poster created this public thread to share the information publicly and pleased a number of people with it. You are contradicting his intenstions when you recommend to retreat into privacy and not to please anyone that has the slightest doubt about it.

RocketDog
03-08-2006, 10:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by IV_JG51_Prien:
Good read. I will go on the "believeable" side of the fence myself. Some of you and your 'gotta have pics names etc' as valid "Proof" need to get off your high horses and jump off a pier. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The reason I think it's made up is not because it doesn't have any photographs or names, or because the original poster clearly knows the game well but has a total of six posts (although all these things should themselves raise a few eyebrows).

No, the reason I think it's made up is because the account describes air combat as if in real life it was like what is found on an IL-2 dogfight server.

It also has far too much interest in IL-2 fan-boy hang ups (Fw-190 forward view and energy retention, anyone?). In contrast, one of the articles I remember reading about the real-life Finnish pilot's comments made it clear that IL-2 style whirling dogfights just didn't happen.

Compare the (genuine) Finnish pilot's comments to those from our purported 41-victory LW ace and ask yourself if they are talking about the same thing. I don't think they are. Now I may be completely wrong, and I'd be happy to be shown to be incorrect, but what I have seen so far leaves me far from convinced.

Of course, I suppose I could just say nothing because it would be impolite to question a poster's truthfulness, but if we have to uncritically accept everything that appears on these forums then our brains will turn to mush.

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" - Carl Sagan.

Cheers,

RocketDog.