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Avivion
06-10-2009, 09:17 AM
Which is the better fighter, F6F or A6M5c ?

In the F6F, is there any indicator for elevator trim setting (like in Spitfire)? I couldn't seem to find any.

Without the trim indicator, how would I know what setting I am at?

Avio

Avivion
06-10-2009, 09:17 AM
Which is the better fighter, F6F or A6M5c ?

In the F6F, is there any indicator for elevator trim setting (like in Spitfire)? I couldn't seem to find any.

Without the trim indicator, how would I know what setting I am at?

Avio

general_kalle
06-10-2009, 09:53 AM
well... release your stick for a second and notice if the plane starts to pull up or down?

the majority of planes has no indicator...

DKoor
06-10-2009, 10:00 AM
Map a key to trim neutral... so you don't have to check.

Anyhow. I'd go with F6F. A6M3 regarding performance is the best of all Zekes in game.

danjama
06-10-2009, 10:08 AM
Depends who's flying.

Ba5tard5word
06-10-2009, 10:11 AM
Keep your speed up in the Hellcat and the Zero will have trouble keeping up with you. Don't let the Zero on your tail if you aren't at top speed.

Avivion
06-10-2009, 10:45 AM
I read the F6F dives better than the Zero. Is this simulated in IL2?

Avio

Avivion
06-10-2009, 10:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DKoor:
Map a key to trim neutral... so you don't have to check.

Anyhow. I'd go with F6F. A6M3 regarding performance is the best of all Zekes in game. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Without visual guide, getting the F6F trimmed while in the thick of a dogfight to stabilise the guns is really quite a handful. Anyone has any recommended tactics to steady the trim while chasing a bandit ?

Avio


Avio

ElAurens
06-10-2009, 10:49 AM
The F6F does dive better than any Zero.

Just don't expect it to warp away from a Zeke the instant you push the stick forward. This catches a lot of players out who have read that the US planes will out dive the Japanese aircraft, and expect to use it like a get out of jail free card.

Start above your quarry, dive on him and fire as you pass and keep on going. Then go some more.

BillSwagger
06-10-2009, 11:27 AM
what joystick are you using?
i'm not sure what you use to trim your planes but an indicator isn't needed if you practice more. In combat, i'm not trimming much at all unless i go into a dive or slow down and need nuetral trim.


If your plane is hopping around when you are trying to steady a shot then you need more airspeed. Trimming does help with this, but instead I use combat flaps to stabilize my plane and stick on his six in the turns.


I never jam flaps anymore either:
I've mapped my JS so one button alternates key functions. So i press the button once and it will lower flaps, then when i press it again it raises them. very handy in dogfights. If i need more flaps there is a combo function i use, so i can lower them for landing or in extreme stall fights, but at least i wont deploy takeoff flaps when i'm trying to recover from a dive, which was often my problem because its difficult to tell or remember where your flaps are at.

X32Wright
06-10-2009, 11:40 AM
If you ask me the A6M5C has the advantage unless the hellcat runs and accelerates away and turns back to do a head on pass.

Most people have underestimated this Zero and even the P-38 flyers have done the same along with the Corsair flyers as well and are surprised that this Zero can handle 680kph dives and do high speed g turns climbing up to them.

This and the A6M3 are my favorite Zeros to fly.

JtD
06-10-2009, 11:46 AM
F6F is far better. Unless the pilot screws up. If you fly it a 6km+ it can run rings around the A6M5c. If the A6M5c choses to fly at lower alt, well, then you have the altitude advantage and can fly rings around it.

Don't take "fly rings around it" literally, because that's the one thing it can't really do.

Ba5tard5word
06-10-2009, 12:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Without visual guide, getting the F6F trimmed while in the thick of a dogfight to stabilise the guns is really quite a handful. Anyone has any recommended tactics to steady the trim while chasing a bandit ? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You just have to get used to trimming your plane--it's a bit different for each plane. Once I trim my plane for top speed, I don't have any trouble keeping my nose straight.

With gyro, spins/stalls and wind/turbulence settings on, I find that I never have to trim the rudder or ailerons, only the elevators (the flight controls that make you go up or down)--generally the torque of the engine keeps my plane from moving side to side and if there's a bit of veering it's minimal and can easily be kept under control.

The number of times to hit the elevator trim down key to get my plane to fly straight depends on each plane. For the Bf-109 I find that 10 key strokes works for flying straight at full speed. The P-40 only needs a few, maybe 3 to 5 key strokes. I've found some Japanese planes like the Ki-84 need a lot, like around 20 or so.

If you don't know what number of strokes you'll need, just point your nose forward at top speed and keep hitting your elevator trim down key until your nose stops moving upwards. Adjust up as necessary if you overhit it, eventually you'll find the sweet spot.

Generally I do this right after taking off before I face any enemies--if I get attacked by enemies right after taking off I try to know what works for each plane (10 keystrokes generally seems to do the job for most planes) and adjust the trim as I'm warming up my engine.

The trim for top speed generally works for me at all speeds and I never change it even for landing, though probably a lot of people do.

Xiolablu3
06-10-2009, 12:53 PM
Danjama nailed it - it all depends on who the pilot is..

Zero is better for a newish pilot.

F6F is better for a Veteran.



Its a bit like Spitfire V vs Fw190A4. A new pilot will do far better in the Spitfire. Purely because a new pilot finds it natural to dogfight close in and turn a lot at lowish speeds, burning lots of 'energy'. Naturally this favours the Spitfire mkV. A more experienced pilot will stay fast and in the vertical, this naturally favours the Fw190A4.

Its the same with the Zero and Hellcat.

Wildnoob
06-10-2009, 01:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ba5tard5word:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Without visual guide, getting the F6F trimmed while in the thick of a dogfight to stabilise the guns is really quite a handful. Anyone has any recommended tactics to steady the trim while chasing a bandit ? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You just have to get used to trimming your plane--it's a bit different for each plane. Once I trim my plane for top speed, I don't have any trouble keeping my nose straight.

With gyro, spins/stalls and wind/turbulence settings on, I find that I never have to trim the rudder or ailerons, only the elevators (the flight controls that make you go up or down)--generally the torque of the engine keeps my plane from moving side to side and if there's a bit of veering it's minimal and can easily be kept under control.

The number of times to hit the elevator trim down key to get my plane to fly straight depends on each plane. For the Bf-109 I find that 10 key strokes works for flying straight at full speed. The P-40 only needs a few, maybe 3 to 5 key strokes. I've found some Japanese planes like the Ki-84 need a lot, like around 20 or so.

If you don't know what number of strokes you'll need, just point your nose forward at top speed and keep hitting your elevator trim down key until your nose stops moving upwards. Adjust up as necessary if you overhit it, eventually you'll find the sweet spot.

Generally I do this right after taking off before I face any enemies--if I get attacked by enemies right after taking off I try to know what works for each plane (10 keystrokes generally seems to do the job for most planes) and adjust the trim as I'm warming up my engine.

The trim for top speed generally works for me at all speeds and I never change it even for landing, though probably a lot of people do. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

think that my joystick migth be with some problem. I CAN'T trim a plane correctly on this sim. know, I use the mouse wheel, and is almost impossible to do so. you talk with so naturaly mister Ba5tard5word, looks very simple to you and most other pilot's, know that your skills must be FAR better them my ones, but I really have issues to make a plane fly at a constant altitude. the damm nose always start to pitch down, I don't even hold anymore to watch the variometer dropping.

I just love this sim, but I'm far from be able to make hands of fligth with any plane, really. I love fly long range missions, for me a 2, 3 hour mission is normal, I mean it would be normal, but as I can't maintein a constant altitude in a fligth is almost impossible do them. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

danjama
06-10-2009, 01:28 PM
Use a key on the keyboard if the mouse wheel is no good!

Flight_boy1990
06-10-2009, 01:36 PM
The A6M5 is the best of all Zeros.

Once i was in a Hellcat and was fighting with an A6M3 and an A6M5.The fight went from 1000m up to 10 500m.Finnaly one of the Zeros ran for it,and i shotdown the other.
It was in Zeke_vs_Wildcat server.

It really depends on the pilot.So don't think that the Zero means easy kill or crap.

Ba5tard5word
06-10-2009, 01:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">think that my joystick migth be with some problem. I CAN'T trim a plane correctly on this sim. know, I use the mouse wheel, and is almost impossible to do so. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't use the mouse wheel, I use ctrl+up key for trim down and ctrl+down key for trim up. It's probably better than the mouse wheel because if I know my plane needs a certain number of key taps for trim, I can probably count it easier than with a mouse wheel.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Its a bit like Spitfire V vs Fw190A4. A new pilot will do far better in the Spitfire. Purely because a new pilot finds it natural to dogfight close in and turn a lot at lowish speeds, burning lots of 'energy'. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Offline at least (considering I'm not sure if the topic creator is talking about online or offline), the AI knows all about using speed to zoom away and keep making repeat passes rather than flying in a straight line and allowing you to get on his tail. So if you're in a Zero, you're probably not going to be able to easily get on the tail of an AI Hellcat unless he's being really lazy. But yes in a close dogfight the Zero will do better. Also I find that the Hellcat AI for some reason is really poor compared to the AI of other planes like the P-40 or most Japanese planes.

M_Gunz
06-10-2009, 02:38 PM
Default arrow keys are stick movers so I reassigned those as pitch and rudder trim, no need to press two keys to trim.
For me, Ctrl and left or right arrow neutralize rudder trim while Ctrl up or down arrow neutralize pitch trim.

There are a lot of keys you can reassign for ease of use if you have a decent stick. Prop pitch or mixture can go to
the number keys if you have a throttle, etc, etc.

Wildnoob -- be aware that trim takes some time to move longer than just tapping or holding a key down or mouse wheel.
You can also over-trim easily. One way also is to put trim on a stick hat. You give it some trim and watch the nose
and loosen up on the stick, when it is done you maybe give some more. In reality when you trim a plane the chances
are it flies a bit faster and you trim some more again, depends on situation. It is not set and forget or was not for
me or the pilot-owner that first showed me either. I'm sure there's someone who always gets it right at once though.

danjama
06-10-2009, 02:50 PM
The BIG difference between the two matchups (spit vs 190 and zeke vs hellcat) is that in the spit 190 the spitfire is ALSO an excellent energy fighter.

OTOH the Zero is a terrible energy fighter, because the elevators stiffen up as soon as you get over 450kmh. Therefore the zeke can't really play the hellcat at it's own game.

DKoor
06-10-2009, 03:31 PM
Comparing Spitfire and A6M in game is like you compare Ferrari and common car.
No comparison there. Spitfire is just much, much better plane.

X32Wright
06-10-2009, 03:33 PM
We should test that sometime Dan http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif You in the Hellcat and me in the A6M5C http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

danjama
06-10-2009, 03:52 PM
Come on wright you know the Zeros elevators lose alot of effectiveness at high speed http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

X32Wright
06-10-2009, 04:32 PM
Doesnt bother me at all and same with the 109 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

VW-IceFire
06-10-2009, 04:43 PM
The other thing thats key in this matchup is that the Hellcat functions better as a team fighter. A pair of experienced Hellcat pilots is significantly more dangerous than a pair of Zeros with the same level of experience.

Also a pair of experienced Hellcat pilots above a swarm of multiple inexperienced Zero pilots usually ends badly for the Zeros. I'm not an amazing pilot but my single best online performance was 7 Zeros shot down by me in one Hellcat in a Marianas online battle. Allot of Zeros' mixing it up at low altitude and two of us were just zipping in and blasting Zeros virtually at will. We could engage and disengage whenever we wanted and none of them were experienced enough to know to climb higher prior to attacking us. I think in the pair that I was working with we collectively shot down something like 12 or 13 Zeros for no losses. Its not a typical situation but I can tell you that such a scenario reversed would not happen with the Zero.

X32Wright
06-10-2009, 04:56 PM
That's one thing I dont do in the Zereo and that is fly it low http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif never http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

How many in this game actually practices Thatch Weave? hmmp? with the Hellcat?

TinyTim
06-10-2009, 05:08 PM
1v1, equal E, low altitude -&gt; Zero barely.

Any other scenario -&gt; F6F by far.

VW-IceFire
06-10-2009, 05:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by X32Wright:
That's one thing I dont do in the Zereo and that is fly it low http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif never http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

How many in this game actually practices Thatch Weave? hmmp? with the Hellcat? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Depends on how loose your definition of Thatch Weave is...but essentially yes thats what I do when co-ordinating with a wingman. Keeping combat spread is key...the other guy then has a relatively easy job to get in on the six of the attacking fighter.

TinyTim
06-10-2009, 06:11 PM
Thatch Weave (or in our slang similar drag'n'bag) inherently assumes 2 v 1 situation. The "bagger" F6F can carefully set up for an attack only if he himself doesn't have another A6M on tail.

Many times two players online brag about how excellent their DnB tactic was to kill an opponent. (Of course outnumbering him 2v1 had nothing to do with it. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif)

WTE_Galway
06-10-2009, 06:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TinyTim:
Thatch Weave (or in our slang similar drag'n'bag) inherently assumes 2 v 1 situation. The "bagger" F6F can carefully set up for an attack only if he himself doesn't have another A6M on tail.

Many times two players online brag about how excellent their DnB tactic was to kill an opponent. (Of course outnumbering him 2v1 had nothing to do with it. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Well drag'n'bag tactics had been around since WWI and were used quite a bit in BoB, usually with the wingman bagging the bogey on his leaders 6.

The difference with the Thatch Weave if I understand it correctly is a method of formation flying that allowed either plane to easily cover the 6 of the other.

DKoor
06-10-2009, 06:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
The other thing thats key in this matchup is that the Hellcat functions better as a team fighter. A pair of experienced Hellcat pilots is significantly more dangerous than a pair of Zeros with the same level of experience.

Also a pair of experienced Hellcat pilots above a swarm of multiple inexperienced Zero pilots usually ends badly for the Zeros. I'm not an amazing pilot but my single best online performance was 7 Zeros shot down by me in one Hellcat in a Marianas online battle. Allot of Zeros' mixing it up at low altitude and two of us were just zipping in and blasting Zeros virtually at will. We could engage and disengage whenever we wanted and none of them were experienced enough to know to climb higher prior to attacking us. I think in the pair that I was working with we collectively shot down something like 12 or 13 Zeros for no losses. Its not a typical situation but I can tell you that such a scenario reversed would not happen with the Zero. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>You speak the truth...

I certainly wouldn't place any bet in 1v1 F6F vs A6M5... Hellcat is little more than a target in such setup. Providing both players do a good job (not newbs).
A6M can do that Spitfireish thing and that is hard turns, great climb, nice cannons, lovely acceleration (after series of maneuvers there is no chance on Earth that you can do anything except dive in Hellcat, which practically makes you a prey in 1v1 equal terms).

I've been in too many of these battles, usually in Hellcats to know just what A6M can or cannot do 1v1.

But as IceFire said, team play is something completely different. In such setup F6F's should have the upper hand if for nothing than for speed and good dive (very mean guns vs Zekes too), the same qualities that FW-190 possesses against it's historical oppos such were LA-5, Spitfire, Yak...

staticline1
06-10-2009, 07:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Avivion:
I read the F6F dives better than the Zero. Is this simulated in IL2?

Avio </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Online yes, as others have said not instantly though. Offline, not a chance in well we all know where. Nothing else to add as everyone else nailed it.

DKoor
06-10-2009, 07:53 PM
Hehe I had my Zero managed by Ai doing some crazy stuff...
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I intentionally raise mix to 120% put it in vertical dive from say 8-9000m... it doesn't ruin the engine nor wings crack at over 900kph @1000m alt. Crazy stuff that Ai.

Also love when I set manual prop pitch on 109 vertical dive from 7500m then set on autopilot (Ai), 109 achieved over 950kph at deck but the engine sound was something else - ultrasonic or something (prop achieves great speed, goes beyond overrevhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif ).

LEBillfish
06-10-2009, 07:55 PM
First off.....The F6F is worlds better then the A6M2/3/5/7....That not only in the sim, yet in real life, it well documented.

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/

The more unstable an aircraft is the more manueverable it is......However, it will not then be forgiving.

The Zero is forgiving, how it was designed to be. Yet the very features that make it easy to fly and fight in also cost it dearly.......The Hellcat is unstable, yet it is that very instability that allows this much heavier fighter to actually exceed the abilities in manueverability of most other aircraft including the Zero.....However, like all things it has a range or curve or envelope it must be flown in to get the most out of it JUST LIKE the zero. The zero does well when slow, get too fast and it is a pig. In fact, I have trouble fighting Wildcats as they will out turn me simply because I'm trying to fly at their optimum speed.

What is not better as some have eluded to here is that many here who fly the F6F like they do with many other aircraft fly it poorly.....They turn too long or too hard, they get out of the optimum envelope for airspeed, they base their manuevers on turning instead of rolling any number of things.....Yet most of all, they try to fly like a Zero.

As to trim, mouse wheels and sliders are for those looking to game the game......Period.....If you've ever looked at trim controls you'd realize they're designed to be very fine adjustments yet also work over a wide range. Trim on aircraft (static when all the controls are neutral) "should" be for when the aircraft is at its optimum cruise condition....Not top speed, not fight speeds. So that means you need to adjust what you have throughout the rest of the range.......However, if you set trim for "best speed" perhaps even a tad nose down you'll be fine.

My advice on trim controls is simple. Set up your Ctrl+1-9 "numeral pad" keys for trim adjustment. 2/5/8 are neutral, 1-3 is elevator/pitch up and down, 4-6 aileron/roll, 7-9 rudder/yaw. That will allow most of you (me it takes a bit of a stretch yeat can even do it) to reach it with your right hand alone using your thumb on the Ctrl key and adjust any of it at will.

If you have bombsight controls mapped to it, simply change them to use Alt+1-9 numeral pad in that it is a rarely used function and should be done when you have time.

K2

Avivion
06-10-2009, 08:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by staticline1:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Avivion:
I read the F6F dives better than the Zero. Is this simulated in IL2?

Avio </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Online yes, as others have said not instantly though. Offline, not a chance in well we all know where. Nothing else to add as everyone else nailed it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pardon me ... think I missed something here ...
Why is it that this works in online dogfight, but not offline? Isn't the same modelling engine being used in both?

Avio

WTE_Galway
06-10-2009, 08:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Avivion:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by staticline1:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Avivion:
I read the F6F dives better than the Zero. Is this simulated in IL2?

Avio </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Online yes, as others have said not instantly though. Offline, not a chance in well we all know where. Nothing else to add as everyone else nailed it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pardon me ... think I missed something here ...
Why is it that this works in online dogfight, but not offline? Isn't the same modelling engine being used in both?

Avio </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Indeed ... but the AI has an "edge" over a human pilot in terms of performance (which it more than makes up for by being stupid) . The FM may be identical but, among other things AI flown planes never overheat, and the AI always flies with perfect trim.

M_Gunz
06-10-2009, 08:31 PM
Honest BF, nuthin persnal, yer a fine wumman but trimmin fighters ain't the same as general point A to B aviation.

Bud Anderson from his autobiography. (http://www.cebudanderson.com/ch1.htm)

What I like so much is that he took time to explain what so many fighter pilots did not, routine adjustments.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> A lot of this is just instinct now. Things are happening too fast to think everything out. You steer with your right hand and feet. The right hand also triggers the guns. With your left, you work the throttle, and keep the airplane in trim, which is easier to do than describe.

Any airplane with a single propeller produces torque. The more horsepower you have, the more the prop will pull you off to one side. The Mustangs I flew used a 12-cylinder Packard Merlin engine that displaced 1,649 cubic inches. That is 10 times the size of the engine that powers an Indy car. It developed power enough that you never applied full power sitting still on the ground because it would pull the plane's tail up off the runway and the propeller would chew up the concrete. With so much power, you were continually making minor adjustments on the controls to keep the Mustang and its wing-mounted guns pointed straight.

There were three little palm-sized wheels you had to keep fiddling with. They trimmed you up for hands-off level flight. One was for the little trim tab on the tail's rudder, the vertical slab which moves the plane left or right. Another adjusted the tab on the tail's horizontal elevators that raise or lower the nose and help reduce the force you had to apply for hard turning. The third was for aileron trim, to keep your wings level, although you didn't have to fuss much with that one. Your left hand was down there a lot if you were changing speeds, as in combat . . . while at the same time you were making minor adjustments with your feet on the rudder pedals and your hand on the stick. At first it was awkward. But, with experience, it was something you did without thinking, like driving a car and twirling the radio dial.

It's a little unnerving to think about how many things you have to deal with all at once to fly combat.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

He mentions both trim for level flight and while in combat "help reduce the force you had to apply for hard turning".
Was he gaming the game in a P-51 over Europe during WWII? Am I when I use trim in IL2 to keep the stick closer to
center where I have somewhat finer control?

BillSwagger
06-10-2009, 09:33 PM
If im trimmed to keep my nose down, and then slow to turn, i would need to apply more force to compensate for the trimming. If the trim is shifted to neutral, it turns with less force on the stick.

horseback
06-10-2009, 10:09 PM
PLEASE, gentlemen. It is the THACH Weave, as in CDR John S. (Jimmy) Thach.

As to trim, I have my trims on my (former) POV hatswitch on my joystick; using the points of the compass North is nose down, South is nose up, and West is left rudder trim and East is right rudder trim. I tried sliders, but they are so sloppy...

The fact is that every aircraft in the game has a very unique response to trim, and it takes time to learn it. The best way I have found is to fly it exclusively for a minimum of four or five hours.

Flying QMBs in Wonder Woman and using the vector ball to keep trimmed is also useful, because on some aircraft the cockpit instruments are way over or undersensitive to the point that they lie to you half the time.

cheers

horseback

LEBillfish
06-11-2009, 01:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
He mentions both trim for level flight and while in combat "help reduce the force you had to apply for hard turning".
Was he gaming the game in a P-51 over Europe during WWII? Am I when I use trim in IL2 to keep the stick closer to
center where I have somewhat finer control? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

........and that differs from what I said how?

I stated clearly that trim is for fine adjustments yet over a broad range........Meaning, to have control over those fine adjustments requires precision via minor movements, however, to cover the entire range requires a lot of movement (turns of the crank/wheel just like we have clicks of a keypad). In kind simply requiring a mechanical advantage over a purely mechanical function dictates more movement/motion = force req'd..

What is NOT therefor realistic or even practical is "instatrim" or the old trim on a slider wherein in a split second you have travelled the entire range of motion (and as used in the sim to acquire an elevator advantage which is what it is used for).

It is not optimum in that you trade off speed/drag for the ability to turn....and it is point blank stupid in the case of a Hellcat vs. an A6M in that you are now trying to fly a F6F as a Zero by overdoing its trim.

Bud Anderson is NOT talking about going from -100% to +100% in a split second.....He is talking about very fine adjustments that keep the aircraft at its peak performance for that immediate condition.

Finally for the novice and due to the limitations of the sim, within the sim, you can set your trim to a best speed condition and past that compensate with control surface inputs due to how trim works in the sim.


So how is it you have any issue with any of that?

Hmmmmmm?

K2

Kettenhunde
06-11-2009, 01:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> to cover the entire range requires a lot of movement </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In most aircraft it only takes ~ 2 turns of the trim control from neutral in either direction to cover the entire range of motion.

Trimming an actual aircraft is just like Col. Anderson describes:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> With your left, you work the throttle, and keep the airplane in trim, which is easier to do than describe.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You feel the resistance of the stick and you just dial out the force with the trim. After the first few hours, it becomes instinct.

All the best,

Crumpp

M_Gunz
06-11-2009, 02:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LEBillfish:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
He mentions both trim for level flight and while in combat "help reduce the force you had to apply for hard turning".
Was he gaming the game in a P-51 over Europe during WWII? Am I when I use trim in IL2 to keep the stick closer to
center where I have somewhat finer control? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

........and that differs from what I said how?

I stated clearly that trim is for fine adjustments yet over a broad range........Meaning, to have control over those fine adjustments requires precision via minor movements, however, to cover the entire range requires a lot of movement (turns of the crank/wheel just like we have clicks of a keypad). In kind simply requiring a mechanical advantage over a purely mechanical function dictates more movement/motion = force req'd..

What is NOT therefor realistic or even practical is "instatrim" or the old trim on a slider wherein in a split second you have travelled the entire range of motion (and as used in the sim to acquire an elevator advantage which is what it is used for).

It is not optimum in that you trade off speed/drag for the ability to turn....and it is point blank stupid in the case of a Hellcat vs. an A6M in that you are now trying to fly a F6F as a Zero by overdoing its trim.

Bud Anderson is NOT talking about going from -100% to +100% in a split second.....He is talking about very fine adjustments that keep the aircraft at its peak performance for that immediate condition.

Finally for the novice and due to the limitations of the sim, within the sim, you can set your trim to a best speed condition and past that compensate with control surface inputs due to how trim works in the sim.


So how is it you have any issue with any of that?

Hmmmmmm?

K2 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh. I thought you were saying something different with;
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Trim on aircraft (static when all the controls are neutral) "should" be for when the aircraft is at its optimum cruise condition....Not top speed, not fight speeds. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Trim is for all conditions, even when the controls aren't neutral.

Avivion
06-11-2009, 07:10 AM
About the F6F prop direction of turn --- it goes anti-clockwise in the sim. But I thought the F6F is American made and like any other American prop plane, the prop turns clockwise rather than opposite?

Avio

LEBillfish
06-11-2009, 08:26 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
Oh. I thought you were saying something different with;
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Trim on aircraft (static when all the controls are neutral) "should" be for when the aircraft is at its optimum cruise condition....Not top speed, not fight speeds. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Trim is for all conditions, even when the controls aren't neutral. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, what I was saying in my quote above is regarding "neutral trim (as in unadjusted, or reset to -0+) vs. and in relation on a real aircraft" due to another above posting to go to neutral trim on their elevator in a fight.

In real life wherein an aircraft has static and dynamic trim tabs (those set firm and those adjustable), in theory the static would be set for a cruise condition hence relieving the effort of the pilot for most of his flight time. (IOW, closest to hands off possible ONCE AT a level cruise condition of altitude, throttle, PP, etc.)....That becomes even more important for aircraft like say the Hien, wherein you do not have dynamic trim except on the elevator.....SO the tabs really a fixed fine adjustment for aircraft design/manufacture imperfections.

Dynamic trimming would be performed over the entire range of flight where in theory upon reaching a cruise condition the settings should be at -0+.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kettenhunde:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> to cover the entire range requires a lot of movement </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In most aircraft it only takes ~ 2 turns of the trim control from neutral in either direction to cover the entire range of motion.

Trimming an actual aircraft is just like Col. Anderson describes:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> With your left, you work the throttle, and keep the airplane in trim, which is easier to do than describe.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You feel the resistance of the stick and you just dial out the force with the trim. After the first few hours, it becomes instinct. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Okay, well do an experiment with anything be it a cup on your table, whatever, anything that can turn continuously (though wherein on many aircraft it was a wheel, others was a tiny hand crank away from the controls)....

Now crank/turn whatever you're using 720 degrees, 2 full turns IN A SPLIT SECOND......

Ain't happnin...Nor would it of been done in combat for that very reason....More so, you're taking the aircraft out of its optimum trim based on the condition, in kind, trying to get the aircraft to perform like another which it is not.

Insta-trim/trim on a slider.....whatever used here always and only for elevator iis a long discussed and rediculous gaming of the game.....

However I say go for it.......as the second your Hellcat loses all E from over trimming and over controlling turning into a wallowing log....I'll simply dance around in my Zero now able to fly at my optimum condition tapping out morse code "Banzaisanshou!" with my bullets upon your airframe.........Yankee pilot fall down go splash.

K2

Kettenhunde
06-11-2009, 08:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> 2 full turns IN A SPLIT SECOND......
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why would you need to do "in a split second"???

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Okay, well do an experiment </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

How about I just fly one of the airplanes I own or look in my logbook to confirm the hundreds of hours of PIC time?

The purpose of trim is to dial out the control forces so the aircraft stays in the condition of flight without the pilot having to keep his hands on the controls. It does not increase the amount of control.

Trimming an aircraft becomes instinctive just like Col. Anderson relates, it is not a big deal.

All the best,

Crumpp

Kettenhunde
06-11-2009, 09:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Insta-trim/trim on a slider.....whatever used here always and only for elevator iis a long discussed and rediculous gaming of the game..... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Can you "trim" a better turn in your game?

All the best,

Crumpp

DKoor
06-11-2009, 09:13 AM
You can trim a lot better turn in game on some fighters, however on some there is no point in trimming for better turn (in most cases that is).

To do a quick test how it works, trim a hard diving Bf-109 full up and you will see that fighters practically turns itself, whereas if you make a full pull on stick (settings 100) it'd do it like a semi-dead horse.

Of course on fighter like FW-190 or P-51 that doesn't make a sense.

On a side effect, you may actually gain a few kph's in comparison with "full manual" turn (not assisted with trim).

Turnfight (full turns) and trim? Ain't gonna work http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif , that can pretty much be used only in insta maneuvers (which should be enough in many cases tho).

Anyhow this trim assisted turns in game are a bit "cheaty" IMHO because they allow you to turn that fighter much better on high speeds than you should be able too. Of course not being a RL pilot I have no experience on that matter whatsoever. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Kettenhunde
06-11-2009, 09:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">You can trim a lot better turn in game on some fighters </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ahh I see why it is such a big deal. This is not how trim works on an airplane.

You need accurate control forces simulation to properly work trim.

It does not effect the amount of control deflection in a properly designed control system unless the pilot is unsually weak and unable to reach the design input force.

Air Forces have physical standards that make that very unlikely in a healthy pilot.

All the best,

Crumpp

JtD
06-11-2009, 09:39 AM
Trim works fairly realistic in game and that includes better turn performance, in particular at high speeds. Just like in real life, pushing this too far will cause structural damage to the plane.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">...unless the pilot is ... unable to reach the design input force... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Which is exactly what is happening. Not everyone can push or pull two hundred pounds.

Kettenhunde
06-11-2009, 10:20 AM
Trim will not make an airplane turn better and you must be outside the design envelope of the control system for the pilot strength to be an issue.

In a very high speed flight approaching Vne, sure, in a sustained level turn ...no way.

Is your simulated pilot limited to low strength? Not all axes are equal.

All the best,

Crumpp

ElAurens
06-11-2009, 10:53 AM
This has been a very hotly contested argument since "trim on a slider" first reared it's ugly head several years ago in the sim.

Crumpp, in the sim the use of instant full trim application will indeed improve the turn times, and turning circle diameters of just about every craft in the game.

It's not correct, but it stops no one from using the exploit.

It is also the only way in the sim to get a BF 109 to reach it's wing structure g loading failure point.

Probably the worst implemented "feature" in the sim, with prop pitch control being a close second.

Kettenhunde
06-11-2009, 11:47 AM
Ok, Thanks for filling me in!

Does anybody know the strength of the pilot?

The NACA did some testing and found the average USAAF pilot could pull the most force, push was a little less, and lateral control was where the pilot could exhibit the least amount of force.

IIRC, it was about ~85lbs of force on a strain gauge in less than a second without bracing and much more if the pilot braced his legs.

All the best,

Crumpp

DKoor
06-11-2009, 11:53 AM
There is something to this too.
Pilot model is something weak judging from the 109 behavior and comparing it to some of the real life comments of the pilots who flew it.
They never whined about the 109 "locking" on what seems to be below normal speed for late war (450kph).

M_Gunz
06-11-2009, 12:32 PM
50 lbs, 22.5 kg --- from Oleg years ago, IIRC 2002.

BF I use key/button to trim and there is a delay though once that was greater.
I just think of it as now as "pilot using two arms" and do not get upset about exploits.

It takes about 20 key taps to go from neutral to full -however- back to neutral is instant by trim-neutral key
and that does allow the trim-happy to escape situations where... well again if you were not using trim but
rather both arms to pull stick what would happen when you let go or just eased up quickly? So why issue at all?

Xiolablu3
06-11-2009, 01:48 PM
I dont htink the Zero is quite the target drone that some people think it is.

- It can still be a deadly fighter in the right hands.

Very Good armament for the first half of the war, great low speed handling and pretty good top speed.

Kettenhunde
06-12-2009, 12:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">50 lbs, 22.5 kg --- from Oleg years ago, IIRC 2002. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

IMHO that is low for the Longitudinal axis pull, a little low for push, and about the limit for the lateral axis.

All the best,

Crumpp

M_Gunz
06-12-2009, 12:29 AM
It may be set for sustained effort.

Col.BBQ
06-12-2009, 12:39 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kettenhunde:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">50 lbs, 22.5 kg --- from Oleg years ago, IIRC 2002. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

IMHO that is low for the Longitudinal axis pull, a little low for push, and about the limit for the lateral axis.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not really that low since not all planes have the same control set up. Compare the P-51 to the Me-109, the P-51 was roomy with a long stick which made it easy to control at high speed whereas the Me-109 has cramped cockpit with a short stick that is hard to get over 30 pounds of force at high speed.

Kettenhunde
06-12-2009, 05:42 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Compare the P-51 to the Me-109, </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Let's try to keep things about measured facts not emotional speculations.

Second all control systems are designed for a pilot to be able to safely control the aircraft in its designed flight envelope.

Lastly, the NACA measurement was not about what force the control system could produce through mechanical leverage, it was a measure of what force the pilot could produce.

All the best,

Crumpp

M_Gunz
06-12-2009, 08:32 AM
How long can the pilot hold and precisely control such amount of force while under G forces... the model does not
include endurance except as this limit, you don't have an internal meter like engine heat of the pilot in IL2.

It is things like this that leave me not feeling that even excessive trim use is an exploit.

Kettenhunde
06-12-2009, 09:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> How long can the pilot hold and precisely control such amount of force while under G forces... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

IIRC, the NACA report has the force plots over time as well. I am still on an overseas contract for the next few weeks so I can’t post it until I get back.

I also have another NACA study on a pilot's ability to track a point object such as another aircraft while under accelerations. IIRC, it was surprisingly poor with an average of an 85% tracking error at ~4G's instantaneous load.

The man was much more a limiting factor in WWII aerial combat than the machine.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> It is things like this that leave me not feeling that even excessive trim use is an exploit.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know about the game trimming.

In RL, trimming helps with pilot fatigue and make it easier to fly the aircraft. When the aircraft is trimmed the stick forces are neutral and the pilot does not have to hold control force input to maintain the condition of flight.

All the best,

Crumpp

VMF-214_HaVoK
06-12-2009, 10:44 PM
Which is better you ask? The answer is easy: The F6F Hellcat buddy.

S!

VMF-214_HaVoK
06-12-2009, 10:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Flight_boy1990:
The A6M5 is the best of all Zeros. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I prefer the A6M3. If considering all around performance the A6M3 is the best of the Zeros pretty easily.

S!

Trefle
06-12-2009, 11:29 PM
Peronally , when i have the choice , i prefer to go with the A6M5b cause of the self-sealing tanks and performances quite close to A6M3 if not identical according to Il-2 compare

JtD
06-13-2009, 01:46 AM
The A6M5 outperform the A6M3 in some ways. They are as heavy but should have a more powerful engine and higher fuel capacity. In game the most noteworthy difference is the extra cannon ammo, which is always useful.

A6M3 wins the looks contest, but that's all.

Freiwillige
06-13-2009, 04:57 AM
And that Kettenhund is exactly why it is a game exploit. Trim is used in reality to ease pilot load in a givin flight condition.

I have never heard of WWII pilots Trimming the elevator full deflection while in a dogfight and I doubt it was done at all. But in the Sim we had pilots using trim to turn the aircraft tighter than his opponent who was trimmed for level flight but was in a high G' turn, Which in itself makes little sense because trim should not make an aircraft turn tighter in the pitch, just make the stick force of the pilot less fatiguing.

Freiwillige
06-13-2009, 05:00 AM
And as an odd side note on the zero debate, Many aces even up to the end of the war preferred to fly A6M2's due to there superior maneuverability to the later models

Xiolablu3
06-13-2009, 05:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VMF-214_HaVoK:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Flight_boy1990:
The A6M5 is the best of all Zeros. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I prefer the A6M3. If considering all around performance the A6M3 is the best of the Zeros pretty easily.

S! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree. The A6M3 is the sweet spot IMO.

The A6M5 seems to have worse elevator authority and stiffer controls.

JtD
06-13-2009, 06:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Freiwillige:
And that Kettenhund is exactly why it is a game exploit. Trim is used in reality to ease pilot load in a givin flight condition.

I have never heard of WWII pilots Trimming the elevator full deflection while in a dogfight and I doubt it was done at all. But in the Sim we had pilots using trim to turn the aircraft tighter than his opponent who was trimmed for level flight but was in a high G' turn, Which in itself makes little sense because trim should not make an aircraft turn tighter in the pitch, just make the stick force of the pilot less fatiguing. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

More correctly, it should not be _used_ to make the aircraft turn tighter.

If you used trim in real life the same way as in game, it would have similar effects. Of course, in real life, there's a bit more hesitation about entering a 12g turn...

However, it should be noted that some pilots in WW2 did exactly this, pre trimmed the aircraft for a specific maneuvre in a sustained condition of flight so the specific maneuvre was quicker to execute.

Interestingly, some automated devices like the Stuka diving automatic messed with trimmings and stick inputs at the same time to ensure a save but quick pullout.

M_Gunz
06-13-2009, 07:40 AM
You trim for speed and power. If someone else leaves their plane trimmed for 200+kph faster than they are now going
then crying "exploit" is just their way of saying how lame they are in piloting skills.

IL2 does not give any extra control authority through trim. The surfaces only move as far as they are supposed to.
All you can get is less stick force. If your stick sliders leave you with no fine control past about mid-pull then
sure, screw yourself and say anyone who does not do the same is cheating. In the meantime it was written down that
WWII pilots did not neglect use of trim during combat, it was a matter of survival.

How do you pull 12 G's in IL2 without blacking out? I've gone to greyout at times, less than 6 G's and to tell the
truth it's only for tests since hard turns bleed energy badly and are a major sign of lousy tactics and poor gunnery
skills. Most of what people see others do is shaped by their own ability to judge distances and speeds, especially
changes in those or should I say to misjudge or just miss the changes and interpret events wrong. The guy who just
"looped inside you in nothing flat" really did get inside and in doing so bled speed so badly you shot out in front
under him. All he had to do was let up on the stick and fire. But if you can't explain then he must have cheated!

It's very simple, the more a plane slows down the tighter the turn radius. Zoom above such a target and let him
bleed down, he wants to blow it then let him! Of course if you can only shoot from close in six then forget all that.

Kettenhunde
06-13-2009, 07:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Trimming the elevator full deflection while in a dogfight </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe a misunderstanding here but I am sure it was routine to trim the aircraft in a dogfight. Col. Anderson relates what all pilots know, trimming becomes instinctive and routine. It is just a part of flying the airplane.

In that function, the “trim on a slider” actually sound realistic to me.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> trim should not make an aircraft turn tighter in the pitch, just make the stick force of the pilot less fatiguing.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> More correctly, it should not be _used_ to make the aircraft turn tighter.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Correct on both counts...

All the best,

Crumpp

M_Gunz
06-13-2009, 08:01 AM
But it's perfectly okay to _use_ the trim to make your turn worse and expect the same from others! LOL!

Separate handling from FM. There is no extra turn FM from trim, only ability of the pilot to use what is there.

JtD
06-13-2009, 08:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:

...How do you pull 12 G's in IL2 without blacking out?... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You can do that if you only turn for a few seconds. Good enough for a break turn to evade a firing solution. I've done that and still do that once in a while.

Trim on a slider becomes unrealistic if you're flying a plane at high speed with heavy controls and can make it dance by changing trim within a split second.

I've heard many claims on how it improves the sustained turn times but have never actually seen any proof for this.

DKoor
06-13-2009, 10:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Trefle:
Peronally , when i have the choice , i prefer to go with the A6M5b cause of the self-sealing tanks and performances quite close to A6M3 if not identical according to Il-2 compare </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Someday I'll test those, especially in their top speed and climb... they should be very close tho. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Now I'm concentrated to Yak-3 VK-107A http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif .

DKoor
06-13-2009, 10:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JtD:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:

...How do you pull 12 G's in IL2 without blacking out?... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You can do that if you only turn for a few seconds. Good enough for a break turn to evade a firing solution. I've done that and still do that once in a while.

Trim on a slider becomes unrealistic if you're flying a plane at high speed with heavy controls and can make it dance by changing trim within a split second.

I've heard many claims on how it improves the sustained turn times but have never actually seen any proof for this. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>+1

Gotta love when Jug comes on my six and I give teh Gustav full down elevator trim... it's a total redout craziness... only way he can gain a solution is to roll inverted and try to shoot me upside down which isn't exactly easy at 600+ kph.

DKoor
06-13-2009, 11:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DKoor:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Trefle:
Peronally , when i have the choice , i prefer to go with the A6M5b cause of the self-sealing tanks and performances quite close to A6M3 if not identical according to Il-2 compare </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Someday I'll test those, especially in their top speed and climb... they should be very close tho. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Now I'm concentrated to Yak-3 VK-107A http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif . </div></BLOCKQUOTE>I did it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif ...
They are literally the same regarding top speed.
About climb... in 3 thousand meters of climb I found the difference being 2-3 sec in A6M3 favor, which is negligible... in normal fight you will never notice it... I think that even in prolonged combat climbs of these types, one versus another, the difference may not be noticeable.

I couldn't test the turn tho... but after these two tests I have little doubt that they would be any different in turn ability.

In short... I was wrong and everyone else who claimed A6M3 to be a better plane than A6M5a...
A6M5a is without much doubt better plane.

Sealing tanks, 50 cannon shells more and 30kph better dive durability is what sets A6M5a apart from its older brother A6M3.

Hope you guys find this useful http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

Wildnoob
06-13-2009, 12:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DKoor:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DKoor:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Trefle:
Peronally , when i have the choice , i prefer to go with the A6M5b cause of the self-sealing tanks and performances quite close to A6M3 if not identical according to Il-2 compare </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Someday I'll test those, especially in their top speed and climb... they should be very close tho. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Now I'm concentrated to Yak-3 VK-107A http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif . </div></BLOCKQUOTE>I did it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif ...
They are literally the same regarding top speed.
About climb... in 3 thousand meters of climb I found the difference being 2-3 sec in A6M3 favor, which is negligible... in normal fight you will never notice it... I think that even in prolonged combat climbs of these types, one versus another, the difference may not be noticeable.

I couldn't test the turn tho... but after these two tests I have little doubt that they would be any different in turn ability.

In short... I was wrong and everyone else who claimed A6M3 to be a better plane than A6M5a...
A6M5a is without much doubt better plane.

Sealing tanks, 50 cannon shells more and 30kph better dive durability is what sets A6M5a apart from its older brother A6M3.

Hope you guys find this useful http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

you are a excellent text pilot buddy, thanks for had conduct such trials! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

but was thinking, I read that when the question of the extreme fragility of the A6M became really a apperenty, most pilot's still didn't want armor protection or self sealing fuel tanks, because it would mean add wheigth to the aircraft and consequentely it would loose performance. like Freiwillige, I hear the same about preference of early models because of that. but of course, I must colect some informations, because know that the diving speed was improved, level speed and armamment also, as well as armor and later self sealing fuel thanks where add to the late war A6M's. but the point I want get is that is was not done from the start. just the improvements in speed would really had allow such features to be add?

DKoor
06-13-2009, 12:41 PM
Thanks http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif .
I think the reason why the practically same performance (a little in A6M5a (1944) favor) is because the Japanese designers probably "danced" around the slight weight increase which would inevitably surface as soon as you equip your fighter with some extra features in comparison to previous types.
Some of that stuff have already been seen in IJA; their Ki-43-II and Ki-43-II KAI have same performance, although KAI is structurally improved (?).

Indeed A6M5a 1944 is heavier than A6M3, but nothing to write home about... at take off difference is 14kg http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif , in this area we come to a situation where a heavier pilot may play the part in performance trials http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif .

Trefle
06-13-2009, 12:51 PM
Which model of A6M5 first had self-sealing tank , A6M5a or A6M5b ? A friend of mine told me that A6M5a had the advantage of tougher wings and better armoured seat compared to A6M3

Also one thing i don't understand is why A6M5c is so poor compared to previous A6M5 whereas it is supposed to be a land-based version , i don't understand cause usually land based versions are "better" than carrier-version , thx for answer http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Wildnoob
06-13-2009, 01:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Trefle:
Which model of A6M5 first had self-sealing tank , A6M5a or A6M5b ? A friend of mine told me that A6M5a had the advantage of tougher wings and better armoured seat compared to A6M3

Also one thing i don't understand is why A6M5c is so poor compared to previous A6M5 whereas it is supposed to be a land-based version , i don't understand cause usually land based versions are "better" than carrier-version , thx for answer http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/3880/a6m.jpg

this is a SC from the A6M5 view object section from IL2.

buddy, I can't can't more now, later I will back so I can continue this pretty interesting discuss.

thank you very much for everything folks!

DKoor
06-13-2009, 01:14 PM
Yeah seems that I got confused there a bit, Hardball's Aircraft Viewer lists two A6M5b variants... however...
I found no other sources saying that A6M5a or b had sealing tanks.
The only difference between a and b is that b had armor for fuel tanks.
A6M5c had them according to several internet sources.

Here it is;
<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">
* A6M5 Model 52: Had wing folding mechanism removed and a rounded tip was installed.3 Exhaust was modified and provided some extra thrust.3
* A6M5 Model 52a: Ammunition feed was improved.3 Skin gauge was increased to allow faster diving.3
* A6M5 Model 52b: Added armor for pilot and fuel tanks.3 A fire extinguisher system was added.3 The armament was improved.3
* A6M5 Model 52c: Armament was revised.3 A self sealing fuel tank added behind the pilot which caused center of gravity problems.3
* A6M5 Model 22: Fuel capacity was increased.3 Cannons were long barrel.3 The flaps and ailerons were modified.3 The skin was heavier gauge to allow faster diving.3
</pre>

http://www.wwiivehicles.com/ja...ubishi-a6m5-zero.asp (http://www.wwiivehicles.com/japan/aircraft/fighter/mitsubishi-a6m5-zero.asp)