PDA

View Full Version : Dogfight server etiquette for new and old.



Jumoschwanz
09-13-2004, 07:20 PM
I was on a dogfight server today and did not have as good a time as I might. It seemed a few of the pilots needed some manners, or perhaps I need a lobotomy, one or the other.

Two instances stand out. In one I was pursuing a P40 in a Me110 and had been turning with it and hitting it for about a minute, an eternity in a dogfight, when finally it belched thick black smoke and a wing came off. Then a pilot in a fw190 came down beween myself and the p40 and proceeded to follow it down shooting. Go get em Tiger!

Later when I was in a 109f4 I got on the tail of a yak9. I was once again on his tail for at least a minute(it ended up taking seven 20mm hits to get it to go down,go figure). Suddenly I was being hit, my windscreens filling with holes. Was it the enemy?, of course not, it was one of my own team "helping" me by shooting past me at MY yak9.

Often in the past whenever a teamate muscles in front of me when I am on a tail I just keep shooting and take out both teamate and enemy. Sometimes it gets a point and a lesson across, mostly it draws negative reactions, but it seems to me justified.

For the record, when a teamate is behind an enemy plane watch from a distance while keeping and eye out for hostile wingmen. Move in to help if your teamate gets the tables turned on him otherwise stay the he11 out of his fight.

Now when the enemy is on the tail of your teamate that is when you move on the enemies tail.(Duh!) It should be simple but you would not know it by watching the action on most servers.

Also for the record, sure I have made all these and many more errors in judgement in the long, online learning process. Just blowing off some steam and trying to help those interested not to be as big an a$$ as I have been and others are now. S!

Jumoschwanz

Jumoschwanz
09-13-2004, 07:20 PM
I was on a dogfight server today and did not have as good a time as I might. It seemed a few of the pilots needed some manners, or perhaps I need a lobotomy, one or the other.

Two instances stand out. In one I was pursuing a P40 in a Me110 and had been turning with it and hitting it for about a minute, an eternity in a dogfight, when finally it belched thick black smoke and a wing came off. Then a pilot in a fw190 came down beween myself and the p40 and proceeded to follow it down shooting. Go get em Tiger!

Later when I was in a 109f4 I got on the tail of a yak9. I was once again on his tail for at least a minute(it ended up taking seven 20mm hits to get it to go down,go figure). Suddenly I was being hit, my windscreens filling with holes. Was it the enemy?, of course not, it was one of my own team "helping" me by shooting past me at MY yak9.

Often in the past whenever a teamate muscles in front of me when I am on a tail I just keep shooting and take out both teamate and enemy. Sometimes it gets a point and a lesson across, mostly it draws negative reactions, but it seems to me justified.

For the record, when a teamate is behind an enemy plane watch from a distance while keeping and eye out for hostile wingmen. Move in to help if your teamate gets the tables turned on him otherwise stay the he11 out of his fight.

Now when the enemy is on the tail of your teamate that is when you move on the enemies tail.(Duh!) It should be simple but you would not know it by watching the action on most servers.

Also for the record, sure I have made all these and many more errors in judgement in the long, online learning process. Just blowing off some steam and trying to help those interested not to be as big an a$$ as I have been and others are now. S!

Jumoschwanz

JG52_Helgstrand
09-13-2004, 07:52 PM
Good post!

Nothing more anoying than making numerous passes at an enemy A/C, finally get him smoking, and then some dikwad comes along for the easy kill.
And don't get me started on idiots shooting through you in their over zelouse desire for points.
This aint COD (or wotever), we don't have the friendly fire off option!

Hptm.Helgstrand Staffelfuhrer
JG52 Recruiting Officer
JG52 The Butcherbirds (http://www.geocities.com/jg52thebutcherbirds/)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v117/Helgstrand/NewSig_JG52.gif

Fennec_P
09-13-2004, 08:05 PM
I don't think its a bad thing if someone else shoots down a enemy that you are chasing.

You can't say a enemy is "yours" and no one elses. If your teammate wipes out the bad guy quickly, its obvious that he was in a better position than you were.

If I am engaged with an enemy, and I see a teammate in a better position, I will disengage and let him have at it. It doesn't matter if I have been chasing him for a minute, or a half hour. Whoever has the best chance of nailing the bandit quickly should do it.

Nothing more annoying that watching a teammate hopelessly out of range, spraying ineffectually at a target, or in a turn fight, getting outmanuevered by a better plane. I am in a perfect position to dive+shoot the baddie, and when I do, I am accused of kill stealing. Even when its clear my teammate is seconds from being raped, sometimes they will still complain.

It's as if players expect you to totally ignore planes that they have "dibs" on, but then immediately come to their aid when they are defeated by the same plane.

Of course, I have no respect for ppl who endanger their teammates in the process. Having 2 or more people tail-chasing 1 enemy is wasteful and dangerous. Better to climb above your teammate, ready to help if he becomes defensive.

JG52_Helgstrand
09-13-2004, 08:25 PM
I agree with you Fennec.
What annoys me though is when the enemy A/C is obviously dead and no longer a threat (like no wing or burning engine).
It's different if the A/C is still able to fight and needs to be killed. If you are in a better possition to shoot then yeah do it.

Hptm.Helgstrand Staffelfuhrer
JG52 Recruiting Officer
JG52 The Butcherbirds (http://www.geocities.com/jg52thebutcherbirds/)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v117/Helgstrand/NewSig_JG52.gif

xTHRUDx
09-13-2004, 08:35 PM
-two soldiers in a foxhole defending their turf from an enemy attack wave.

soldier1:"hey!, you shot the guy i was aiming at. that really makes me mad."

soldier2: "bite me"


do you think this conversation like this ever took place in combat?
neither do i

i don't think you'll find too many soldiers that where upset that another soldier killed someone that was trying to kill them or another buddy

Resident_Jock
09-13-2004, 08:59 PM
Because in real air combat, you get shared kills instead of 100 or nothin :P

http://thecasualty.homestead.com/files/resident_siggy.jpg

karost
09-13-2004, 11:49 PM
Yes that is correct "no share kills in df server" seem look like a group of dogs bite each other to get the food http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I still remember the wrong thing that don't what it happened again and again.

while I stay on best position to line the deflection shoot to a target at 120 meter when I pull trigger of mk108 to shot my target but ,suddenly my mate flying pass to my gun sigh at the same time! Oh no... , then I see big black smock not from my target but from my mate he has only one wing and spin down to the ground.... that is not what I want. -400 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Now I learn new lesson deflection shooting is not easy http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


I have one funny story; I believe you may have a same experience
I saw 7x bf-109 hunting only one I-16 , one bf-109 make a mistake same like me above and other 2 bf 109 hit each other and other one bf-109 hit the ground , remain only 3 bf 109 that make a final join hunt I-16 down at the end.

So next time when I see something same like this I will not make a join hunt I will fly over to watch the fun is a batter way http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The_Ant
09-14-2004, 01:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Resident_Jock:
Because in real air combat, you get shared kills instead of 100 or nothin :P

http://thecasualty.homestead.com/files/resident_siggy.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah it would be nice too share kills online,but do you whant to do it when you been fighting for 5 min just you and another guy, on a private map sector and you got the enemy his burning and is going too crash, when this teenage antisocial noob comes in and steeal your very much deserved kill,Hows the feeling and emotions then? Ive stopped Hosting and playing online cause of this.And this not in il2 only all other games ive played online. Which b.stards are there thats ruin the play (yes the teenage antisocial Noob).Im 29 years old and have been playing simulations for 15 years and other games, never ever untill recently years have i encunterd this teenage (must kill all ruin everybodys day)problem.

[Si Vis Pacem,Para Bellum = If you wish for peace, prepare for war.]

F19_Ob
09-14-2004, 02:28 AM
Mistakes and misjudgements happen all the time, particulary in DF servers with high difficulty level. A good idea is to make tracks so one can review the battle later and get the full picture and explanations.

Personally I suspect that a big part of bad behavior is due to a focus on scores and statistics and that it seems better to get many "bad" kills than a kill (or not) where sportsmanship is involved.

One thing is sure....this game get people emotional.

Capt.LoneRanger
09-14-2004, 02:52 AM
Good example, xTHRUDx!

Surely, there's nobody that would be upset, when somebody else fired at the same enemy you did and blame him to be a killstealer. You are absolutely right!

And a very good example, how stupid killstealing is, and why the army spends a lot of time to NOT do exactly, what you described.

Why? For the simple reason, that there is seldomly just a single soldier running at you. So, if 2-4 guys shoot at the same attacker, that means that at least 1 to 3 attackers are able to fire at you perfectly unharmed.
And that is exactly the case in online-dogfights. If somebody is behind an opponent, you can cover him, maybe assist him, when the bogey wins the upper hand, but firing at the target of your teammate, especially firing over his shoulder is something you'd get busted for in RL, because you endanger your fellow pilots. That is inaceptable.
Same is for settling between your teammate and his target. You endanger him, because this could easily lead to collisions and it often does.

This is one thing and NOBODY would do this in RL and there is absolutely no excuse for that. It's pure egoism.

To fire at an aircraft with a wing allready gone, his engine burning or the pilot allready dead is stupid. It's waste of ammo and waste of time.

Any of these killstealing things have nothing to do with tactical decisions, teamplay or acting as in RL. That's a really lame excuse.

For all ya killstealers and people out there, who think 5 vs 1 is better than 1 vs 1 with one covering: While 5 of you engage a single bandit, 4 enemies can easily slip by and attack the target or get behind you.

I'm not even talking about chivalry or something, but pure mathematics and logic.

greets
Capt.LoneRanger

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v411/Arcadiac/LRSig.jpg

AFJ_Locust
09-14-2004, 03:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by xTHRUDx:
-two soldiers in a foxhole defending their turf from an enemy attack wave.

soldier1:"hey!, you shot the guy i was aiming at. that really makes me mad."

soldier2: "bite me"


do you think this conversation like this ever took place in combat?
neither do i

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The simple fact is there are plenty of kill stealing point *****s who shoot at others kills
in Closed pit & open pit, theres nothing more frustrating than being in a good fight with someone for 10 , 15 min and you finaly get the guys six or get a good shot on him & here comes some flake who had nothing to do with the fight & shoots the wounded half dead bandit that you just cripled.

When I see a fight I try to analyze it... whos wining the fight friend or fo if its fo Ill go into the fight to help the friendly, if the friendly has the fight in control I just keep moving right along, I think you get lots more respect that way & in the end make more friends that one day might clear your six when you need a hand.

If more people would use this kind of judjment there would be alot less crying & bickering in the online games !!!

Dont belive the Hype !!!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v61/AFJ_Locust/Funpic.jpg

RedDeth !!
I have a six!

DOOD your toooo Low, Im going Vertical.

Roger, Ill Smoke these three noobs you stay up there ! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://fighterjocks.net//

The_Ant
09-14-2004, 03:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AFJ_Locust:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by xTHRUDx:
-two soldiers in a foxhole defending their turf from an enemy attack wave.

soldier1:"hey!, you shot the guy i was aiming at. that really makes me mad."

soldier2: "bite me"


do you think this conversation like this ever took place in combat?
neither do i

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The simple fact is there are plenty of kill stealing point *****s who shoot at others kills
in Closed pit & open pit, theres nothing more frustrating than being in a good fight with someone for 10 , 15 min and you finaly get the guys six or get a good shot on him & here comes some flake who had nothing to do with the fight & shoots the wounded half dead bandit that you just cripled.

When I see a fight I try to analyze it... whos wining the fight friend or fo if its fo Ill go into the fight to help the friendly, if the friendly has the fight in control I just keep moving right along, I think you get lots more respect that way & in the end make more friends that one day might clear your six when you need a hand.

If more people would use this kind of judjment there would be alot less crying & bickering in the online games !!!

Dont belive the Hype !!!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v61/AFJ_Locust/Funpic.jpg

RedDeth !!
I have a six!

DOOD your toooo Low, Im going Vertical.

Roger, Ill Smoke these three noobs you stay up there ! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://fighterjocks.net//<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Exactly you are right on the point there!

[Si Vis Pacem,Para Bellum = If you wish for peace, prepare for war.]

Lt.Davis
09-14-2004, 03:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The_Ant:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Resident_Jock:
Because in real air combat, you get shared kills instead of 100 or nothin :P

http://thecasualty.homestead.com/files/resident_siggy.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah it would be nice too share kills online,but do you whant to do it when you been fighting for 5 min just you and another guy, on a private map sector and you got the enemy his burning and is going too crash, when this teenage antisocial noob comes in and steeal your very much deserved kill,Hows the feeling and emotions then? Ive stopped Hosting and playing online cause of this.And this not in il2 only all other games ive played online. Which b.stards are there thats ruin the play (yes the teenage antisocial Noob).Im 29 years old and have been playing simulations for 15 years and other games, never ever untill recently years have i encunterd this teenage (must kill all ruin everybodys day)problem.

[Si Vis Pacem,Para Bellum = If you wish for peace, prepare for war.]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think most of the people play this sim are all mature man. Of cause there are few player don't care about other people as long they can make the kill. But sometime or most of the time, i think it's because the view problem. It happen before 1 chase the enemy plane for few minutes and finally when i pullmy trigger, i saw tracer shooting at my target.

I told him that i'm chase him for few minutes already, and he say the same thing to me also. He also chase him for few minutes and never notice me.

What i want to say is, sometime it is the view and the concentration of your focus on enemy plane. And sadly this apply to the other guy that chasing the same target.

Personal kill are not important in scripted server. The winning part make me excited.

Just my opinion.

"Biar berputih tulang, jangan berputih mata"
Translated:
"Let the whites of your bones, but do not show the whites of your eyes"

Sandman_UK
09-14-2004, 03:41 AM
Firstly i have to say that i normally agree that when someone on your team is in a better position then it is not a proble for me to pull away and let him have a go. This is fine when you are in a co-op or playing Full real where lives or missions are everything.

The difference for me is when you are in a dogfight server, anyone who says they are not bothered about what points they have is a liar, there is points whoring (lands after every kill) now that is just annoying, but when you are in a DF server you all want to have some respectable points total. This in turn makes kill stealing frustrating, it you have host an enemy up and he is obviousley going down then you have to leave it. I often find now that im accompanying my kill down to the ground to make sure no wally steals my kill at the last minuite. Even then this does not always help.

Last night i was chasing down a HE-111, now i did it all proper with multiple angled attacks (took 4) so that i did not get shot up, he was finally on fire in one wing, rudder shot up and going down. I followed him until he nearly hit the ground and then some **** comes in and shoots him at the last second. Now that is just frustrating. If you are saying to me that you are happy that just went down, then i simply dont understand you. Remember, im talking about a DF server here, not a scripted mission or Coop.

http://server6.uploadit.org/files/sandmanUK-c5b9.jpg

The_Ant
09-14-2004, 03:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lt.Davis:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The_Ant:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Resident_Jock:
Because in real air combat, you get shared kills instead of 100 or nothin :P

http://thecasualty.homestead.com/files/resident_siggy.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah it would be nice too share kills online,but do you whant to do it when you been fighting for 5 min just you and another guy, on a private map sector and you got the enemy his burning and is going too crash, when this teenage antisocial noob comes in and steeal your very much deserved kill,Hows the feeling and emotions then? Ive stopped Hosting and playing online cause of this.And this not in il2 only all other games ive played online. Which b.stards are there thats ruin the play (yes the teenage antisocial Noob).Im 29 years old and have been playing simulations for 15 years and other games, never ever untill recently years have i encunterd this teenage (must kill all ruin everybodys day)problem.

[Si Vis Pacem,Para Bellum = If you wish for peace, prepare for war.]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think most of the people play this sim are all mature man. Of cause there are few player don't care about other people as long they can make the kill. But sometime or most of the time, i think it's because the view problem. It happen before 1 chase the enemy plane for few minutes and finally when i pullmy trigger, i saw tracer shooting at my target.

I told him that i'm chase him for few minutes already, and he say the same thing to me also. He also chase him for few minutes and never notice me.

What i want to say is, sometime it is the view and the concentration of your focus on enemy plane. And sadly this apply to the other guy that chasing the same target.

Personal kill are not important in scripted server. The winning part make me excited.

Just my opinion.

"Biar berputih tulang, jangan berputih mata"
Translated:
"Let the whites of your bones, but do not show the whites of your eyes"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That i can tolerate, but i cant tolerate those whom shots over my shoulder,shots the enemy which is on fire/wing shot off.Those people are plain stupid!And since i fly with outside view on in dogfight server i always check if thers an other team mate around from time to time.And belive me if the sky is empty when you dogfight,and then the killstealing ****** appear after 3 min, who do you think deserves the the kill Then me or the ******.

[Si Vis Pacem,Para Bellum = If you wish for peace, prepare for war.]

JG54_Arnie
09-14-2004, 03:54 AM
AH, I believe you were on EasterHotshots last night Jumo? It was nice to have you there. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Its really frustating to see how people act sometimes, and combined with the ignorance towards balancing the sides creates some very silly situations sometimes. I wish there was an option to force a balance on the teams as often one side is completely outnumbering the other and than these situations where 7 guys chase one enemy happen alot. Reminds me that it might be usefull to sent such a request to Oleg. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

And when sides would be balanced, chasing one guy with 7 or more than two planes will get solved quicker when there's enough guys to help out this one guy.

---------------------------
EasternHotshots online for your entertainment, come visit us at Hyperlobby! If you like the Eastern Front that is. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

We fly with limited planesets for 1941, 1942, 1943 and 1944, the year changing every 1 hour and 45 minutes.
Questions, recommendations or compaints: PT me.
Want to join through ip? : 130.89.227.135

Stonerox
09-14-2004, 04:32 AM
Agreed, it's very annoying when somebody "steals" your kill, especially after you've chased him for a long and tiresome fight.. But I guess that sometimes I have also stolen someones kill, either because I get to eager, don't read the situation well.. or simply 'cause I judge it nescessary (although my teammate might feel different about it).

However, in certain situations (like enemies bogeys over your airfield, causing havoc..)It's tactically wise to do everything possible to get them down as quick as possible, so your teammates might take-off and land safely...(You might call me a territorial consient pilot)

Also often after finishing off one kill, I will return to rearm.. it's so boring to run out of ammo (often I've wasted a few rounds).
I am happy for all the kill points I get, but find it a bit over-the-top refering to this behaviour as whoring!!!!
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://home.tiscali.no/jenspetter/sas/SIG_Spit3.jpg

Jumoschwanz
09-14-2004, 05:29 AM
The main thing is it is really great when you mature and cultivate some patience to stand by and let your teamate finish having his fun all the while watching his six so the enemies wingman does not take him or both of you out!
This happens as often as some bozo who is "annoyed" because he knows he could do a much better job is busy "helping", when he could be doing his job and looking out for other enemies moving in.
One day you notice that the guys who are really kicking a$$ online are the guys who look out for each other in this way, like GR142Astro and Pipper to name two of the best. The ones who worry only about their own fun and how annoyed they personally are are the newbs, amatures and fodder for the pros who wing up with someone and work as a team, even if the other guy you are watching over does not know they have a wingman. You will get more kills this way to. Nothing draws flies like tracers and if you wait you will get your own plamate and save your buddies a$$ to boot.
Let that newb have his fun and run himself out of ammo, watch his six for him, bag an enemy wingman and look like a pro. The pluses for this method stack up so high I wonder about how anyone can argue against it. Now if I can remember to follow this method myself in the heat of battle!

Jumoschwanz

TgD Thunderbolt56
09-14-2004, 05:49 AM
Muscling in on a fight well in-hand, shooting an already Dead bird (i.e. missing wing, on fire, prop not turning). These are things that really burn me.

I have no problem relinquishing the "eyeball" on a bandit I can't quite get the handle on, but sometimes it really is ridiculous.

TB


Our FB server info: http://www.greatergreen.com/il2

Sandman_UK
09-14-2004, 05:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Also often after finishing off one kill, I will return to rearm.. it's so boring to run out of ammo (often I've wasted a few rounds).
I am happy for all the kill points I get, but find it a bit over-the-top refering to this behaviour as whoring!!!!
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://home.tiscali.no/jenspetter/sas/SIG_Spit3.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

think you took me wrong on this one, i agree that landing to re-arm it neccesary if you have been out for while. Im on about people who take off, get a kill quite quickly without using much ammo then land to gain the points. These are the people that like to steal kills to maximist their points total. I land a lot, for one i like landing, and two the Spit runs out of ammo fairly quickly so its neccesary.

http://server6.uploadit.org/files/sandmanUK-c5b9.jpg

Stonerox
09-14-2004, 07:39 AM
Hey Sandman... No offense taken, I see your point now...
Jepp! - the Spit hasn't got to much ammo with it, however it's my prefered plane, so I fly it whenever I can... I also for one love landing.. It somehow is so satisfying...

Also agreed: those who just go up there to make a kill, and return... they really disrupt the feeling of continuity in the game, and honestly it's kind of egoistic behaviour - nothing to do with comrade-ship between fellow pilots!!! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif it's a sad thing...

http://home.tiscali.no/jenspetter/sas/SIG_Spit3.jpg

crazyivan1970
09-14-2004, 09:01 AM
Good post Jumo and major problem on all servers. I will never forget that night on WC where i got my first death kick after being exploaded by my team mates 3 times within 1 hour. Rather irritating. Talking about point-w....you know who

V!
Regards,

http://blitzpigs.com/forum/images/smiles/smokin.gif

http://www.mechmodels.com/images/band.gif

VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/coop-ivan.jpg

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/vfc/home.htm

Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

Sandman_UK
09-14-2004, 10:19 AM
Ohhh Ivan you have started me on another gripe now http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Last night i was playing war clouds and the first game two of my lives were lost to people ramming me on the ground cos they dont look to see if a stationary just spawned plane is in front of them.

Then when i got on again, it happened again. I never moan on the chat line cos its not worth it, but i can only hope they are getting used to FR and are not used to looking around before they Taxi http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

http://server6.uploadit.org/files/sandmanUK-c5b9.jpg

VF-10_Snacky
09-14-2004, 10:38 AM
Poor Wingman Tactics

Those of us who primarily fly American aircraft in these servers know the fustration of working to defeat a bandit and be working him over only to have some Flake as Locust put it come along and blast away. Then to add salt to the wound when you ask the guy not to steal your kills in the future you get the standard "WTF, I was on him the whole time". You see those of us with BB guns in the wings dont get the instant gratification like those of you with 3 or 4 MK108 cannons. We have to actually make more than one pass to kill an aircraft or at least send him home smoking.

Problem is improper wingman tactics and impatience.
Instead of shooting through your teamate to get a few pot shots or blasting away after your wingman has already worked him over why not take a position of high cover and wait for the next bad guy that shows up.
Covering your wingman does not mean you pull this "Top Gun" BS and flying tight formation on his six.
Well, it really makes no difference I guess because the ones who need to be reading this stuff don't frequant these boards anyway and the ones seeing this already for the most part try to follow these rules.

_______________________________________________
http://www.x-plane.org/users/531seawolf/Corsair%20Sig.jpg
"Up there the world is divided into bastards and suckers. Make your choice."

" Derek Robinson, 'Piece of Cake.'

9th_Spitin
09-14-2004, 10:39 AM
S~

One thing that I have run into a few times lately is taxi and runway ignorance. I make it a point to use taxiways and hold up off the runway if someone else is taking off. Also on landing, I was in WC's on friday night and limping my Spit back with a blackend canopy, had my nav lights on and on final(engine making horrible sounds so one shot aproach) about to touch down and someone spawned in fired engine and took off across runways making me have to veer to the left and bounced in the sand nosing over. Thanks to him all the hard work to evade the 3 109's, all my teams help to clear my tail was for nothing. No appology on top of it all. This did not happen whith the base under attack, I know in that case sometimes you just have to gas and go.

Thanks for letting me vent.

S~

http://flyingknights.lordsofwar.com
http://www.lordsofwar.com/public_uploads/Bloodfist/spitinfinalsig.jpg

karost
09-14-2004, 11:55 AM
taxi accident happend all the time , we lose 4-6 plane when a new mission start , when I start engine,I have to turn left and right to scan the way and I saw one 109 friend so I break and let he take off first , but he also did the same thing like me , so we both looking each other and no one move for 30 second http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

S!

NorrisMcWhirter
09-14-2004, 12:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VF-10_Snacky:
Poor Wingman Tactics

Those of us who primarily fly American aircraft in these servers know the fustration of working to defeat a bandit and be working him over only to have some Flake as Locust put it come along and blast away. Then to add salt to the wound when you ask the guy not to steal your kills in the future you get the standard "WTF, I was on him the whole time". You see those of us with BB guns in the wings dont get the instant gratification like those of you with 3 or 4 MK108 cannons. We have to actually make more than one pass to kill an aircraft or at least send him home smoking.

Problem is improper wingman tactics and impatience.
Instead of shooting through your teamate to get a few pot shots or blasting away after your wingman has already worked him over why not take a position of high cover and wait for the next bad guy that shows up.
Covering your wingman does not mean you pull this "Top Gun" BS and flying tight formation on his six.
Well, it really makes no difference I guess because the ones who need to be reading this stuff don't frequant these boards anyway and the ones seeing this already for the most part try to follow these rules.

_______________________________________________
http://www.x-plane.org/users/531seawolf/Corsair%20Sig.jpg
"Up there the world is divided into bastards and suckers. Make your choice."

" Derek Robinson, 'Piece of Cake.'

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is also true for 190 drivers using the A4-A6 where the first pass is very often not enough especially against VVS aircraft. What riles me is you spend a good while climbing into a nice position, you do a couple of runs on your bandit then someone turns up, when the guy is already smoking, and takes his wing off with one burst before running off to base to collect his 100pts, leaving you with two high bandits that saw the tracers and headed over.

The other good one is where you see a teammate in trouble, tell him that you are assisting then dive in to help them out, then they promptly leave just as the entire opposite teams turns up. When you ask what they were doing, they reply, 'Sorry - didn't see you' or similar.


You're also correct with the wingman procedure; I'll very often go high when my teammate dives in so that while he is zooming, the bandit will be preoccupired with chasing him so as to ensure a good run for me. How often do you get it, though, where players on the same team will all lose their alt advantage just to pile in on the bandit you already have under control, just to try to get a few shots in before it goes down?

You're correct Jumo but DF servers are not the place to expect to find good teamwork and ettiquette. If you want that, I'd suggest more structured environments such as co-ops on online war.

Cheers,
Norris

================================================== ==========

: Chris Morris - Blue Jam :
http://cabinessence.cream.org/

: More irreverence :
http://www.tvgohome.com/

: You've seen them... :
www.chavscum.co.uk (http://www.chavscum.co.uk)

'Bugs? What bugs?'
'AAA steals online kills, crash landing if good landing but out of fuel, muzzle flashes, kill given for planes that have landed OK, AI steals offline kills, gauges not working, Spitfire never overheats, FW190 view, P63 damage model, weird collision modelling...'
'Yeah, but look on the bright side - at least the 0.50s are fixed!'
Moral: $$$ + whining = anything is possible

VFA-195 Snacky
09-14-2004, 12:55 PM
This is why flying with a squad or group of guys on voice comms is soooooo important. Let's not kid ourselves here folks, it's air quake any way you look at it and the majority of kids in these servers are not interested in real world tactics or teamwork.
It's wheels up and shoot to these kids

http://www.x-plane.org/users/531seawolf/b_a_presidential_first.jpg
"Navy1, Call the Ball- Roger Ball."

Jumoschwanz
11-29-2004, 08:40 AM
Hey Targ!

You are pre-emptively locking posts, so I think you should retro-actively lock them too. Here is a post on the same subject as the last one of mine you locked. It does not look like a flame-fest to me, or CrazyIvan, who said it was a good post, but you are the expert.

There are hundreds of pages for you to go back over and look for atrocities like this so you better get to work now......S!

Jumoschwanz

slarsson
11-29-2004, 11:45 AM
Well, another take on the subject from one of the world's least effective online pilots, me.

Some weeks ago I was on one of the semi-real servers and orbiting above a "team-mate" as he chaed a 109. This went on for a few minutes, with him unable, as far as I could tell, to score even a single hit. Eventualy, he broke away as the 109 was extending. I saw the chance and dropped onto the 109 and took his wing off with one burst - lucky deflection shot, I guess.
The next thing I know mt "team-mate" is on my six and shoots me down.....

I ask "Whose team are you on?" To which someone (not the shooter) replies, "You stole his kill, so he punished you"

Very mature

FRAGAL
11-29-2004, 12:01 PM
Thought i'd put my 2 pence worth in,

My Thoughts for kill sharing with your teammates are this if i see a tense dogfight o i'll head over there pick my target if it's clear i'll engage, if it's being chased i'll hang back and hold my fire, if the chase plane breaks off or overshoots i'll engage and vice versa if i overshoot i'll work back into a firing position and hold back till the other guy either clears my shot,overshoots or disengages, if the enemy plane bursts into flames, the pilot bails, gets PK'd or suffers severe damage as a result of a wingmans attack i disengage.
I don't just dive in and shoot the first thing i see which is what a lot of ppl seem to do no matter what the state of the target plane is.

For me that has to be the cardinal sin of online dogfighting.

the moral is hang back have patience and u'll get your shot in.

Daiichidoku
11-29-2004, 12:08 PM
Yet another thread on this subject...yet again written by jumoschwantz...

always has been a prob, and sadly always will

somewtimes KS happens by mistake, everyone has done it

more often than not it is easily avoidable

Sadly, with FB/PF's ridiculous scoring system, it encourages those that believe having points shows they are great pilots into this sort of "feeding frenzy" actions

A kill/loss ratio counter in the game would lessen this, IMHO...put more emphasis on the loss part espicially, as this was far more realistic, too...IRL kills are nice, but nowhere as important as keeping the "loss" part clear!

Even with a kill/loss counter instead of the ghey scoring sys now in place, there would still be some KS'ing, sadly

When ppl unnecessarily KS, they spoil the fun and one of the main payoffs of playing the game in the first place, that is, earning a kill, the satisfaction of having fought a foe and defeated him, at the cost of ammo, and sometimes almost your plane instead of his...
This is why I sometime am driven to teamkill the KS'in bastage...I dont care about the ghey FB/PF points, so going negative doesnt bother me, and hopefully teamkilling the offender will rob him of the same fun that he took from you

Nuttin nicer than seeing idiots who crowd lame ducks with 5 or 6 other friendlies to get that vaunted 100 points (as somewhere else, you can be sure another friendly is in need of help) collide and blow up, then start to blame each other in the chat, hehehe

LilHorse
11-29-2004, 02:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Daiichidoku:
This is why I sometime am driven to teamkill the KS'in bastage...I dont care about the ghey FB/PF points, so going negative doesnt bother me, and hopefully teamkilling the offender will rob him of the same fun that he took from you
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What's even better is to fly into their bullet stream and then nose dive in. Neg. points for them, which for point ***** types, is the worst thing you can do to 'em.

knightflyte
11-29-2004, 04:18 PM
My mother taught me to be polite when I steal a kill. (JK)

I don't fly online because I have 56k modem and don't want to ruin anyones fun with excess lag.

How's THAT for ettiquette? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I should just bite the bullit, and buy DSL, especially since I love some of the IL2 movies that are made by the members.

The few times I have gone online I look for bombers to help escort. It's satisfying for BOTH pilots to see an opposing airfield burn. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

regards,
Robert


One you go Track you NEVER go back!

reddevil49
11-29-2004, 06:37 PM
Hi all. I've been reading through this thread and am finding it quite interesting. I seldom go online as the prospect of getting rapped by the big boys just does'nt turn my crank. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif It seems to me that its all about the almighty points that seems to cause nothing but trouble and hurt feelings. SO IMO why not just scrap the whole point thing and let the player keep track of his own kills. Get a pen and paper and mark em down as you knock em down. Of course this could lead to a lot bs about kill ratios. Just my 2 cents from a quite bystander.

The-Good-Guy
11-29-2004, 07:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
... there is points whoring (lands after every kill) now that is just annoying... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think some of you forget that for some of us, getting a kill is a once a week event, and getting home safe and sound means we've actually completed a kill-successful sortie. And "Wow! I don't have '0' beside my name!" That's positive progress for some of us and it doesn't mean the person is in some way bad.

Please try not to generalise too much, but I can appreciate what you mean.

Nutcase