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BaronUnderpants
10-27-2006, 12:18 PM
Super power and all.

http://www.nbc4.tv/news/10116514/detail.html


Click on video in link.

BaronUnderpants
10-27-2006, 12:18 PM
Super power and all.

http://www.nbc4.tv/news/10116514/detail.html


Click on video in link.

FlixFlix
10-27-2006, 12:25 PM
The Swedish should watch out - if they keep doing things like that, they'll be the next country to be invaded by the US... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

AKA_TAGERT
10-27-2006, 01:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FlixFlix:
The Swedish should watch out - if they keep doing things like that, they'll be the next country to be invaded by the US... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Bet!<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

************************************************** **
IF WAR IS NOT THE ANSWER.. THAN WHAT THE H IS YOUR QUESTION?
************************************************** **

koivis
10-27-2006, 01:09 PM
How are they going to invade anything if those Swedes sink all their ships before that (including carriers)...? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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LStarosta
10-27-2006, 01:16 PM
Hey, on last count, how many nukes does Sweden have?

Yeah, that's what I thought.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

_____________________________
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But another household work, the highly propagandized Me 109G, was obsolete when it was built and was aerodynamically the most inefficient fighter of its time. It was a hopeless collection of lumps, bumps, stiff controls, and placed its pilot in a cramped, squarish cockpit with poor visibility.
-- Col. Carson, USAF


<A HREF="http://www.air-source.us/operations/logbooks/LOGFLIGHTS.asp?PILNO=450" TARGET=_blank>http://www.air-source.us/images/Ribbons/AAS.gif
</A>

leitmotiv
10-27-2006, 01:17 PM
As long as Washington keeps the Swedes on the payroll and the Swedes help us cream German super subs, I'd say Uncle Sam and Sven are ace buddies.

HuninMunin
10-27-2006, 01:21 PM
pssht....Leitmotif....
the new Alpha class was to be our secret... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

----------------------------------
.....he was seeking that one moment...the moment in wich all his life would crumble under the bright clearness of his mind.....where in a second everything would be lost or won.
Clearness in the last moment - The warrior's only hope and dream
----------------------------------

http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/633/sigvp0.jpg

Simon "Hunin" Phoenix
Servant of Wotan and Tyr
True knight of the Endlich-Thread

BSS_Goat
10-27-2006, 01:25 PM
USN FTW!<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://www.boeing.com/history/mdc/images/D4E-535495_n.jpg


"SBD..... it may be ugly, but it's slow."

leitmotiv
10-27-2006, 01:29 PM
And, as an American Swede, without the U.S. and NATO, I 'spect the only language being spoken by my relatives in Sweden would be Russian. The USN always trains to beat the best, and the German subs are the best!

AKA_TAGERT
10-27-2006, 01:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LStarosta:
Hey, on last count, how many nukes does Sweden have?

Yeah, that's what I thought. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>LOL<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

************************************************** **
IF WAR IS NOT THE ANSWER.. THAN WHAT THE H IS YOUR QUESTION?
************************************************** **

HuninMunin
10-27-2006, 01:33 PM
lol.
I agree the new subs are great but
if you take a look at the vid that was posted here a few months ago I start to question the skill of our crews.
You know....this guard breaking to the HipHop beat?
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

triad773
10-27-2006, 01:35 PM
Hegemony is fleeting at best http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://www.triad773.com/images/he100-7.jpg

ploughman
10-27-2006, 01:37 PM
Good for deterring someone from parking a fleet just off your coast, not so good for sending it half way around the world to inflict pain an harm on an enemy though. SSNs FTW.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

_______________________________________
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Dum spiro, spero.

leitmotiv
10-27-2006, 01:55 PM
SSNs trump German ubercoastalcrawlers, but we had best know how to deal with them. Chinese knock-offs of German super boats are being used by Iran---if one porks the RONALD REAGAN it's as porked as it would be from a capital ship sub. Nobody will check its pedigree when handing out the laurels.

LStarosta
10-27-2006, 01:58 PM
When sh*t won't float, call in the Air Force.

Any place, any time.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

_____________________________
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But another household work, the highly propagandized Me 109G, was obsolete when it was built and was aerodynamically the most inefficient fighter of its time. It was a hopeless collection of lumps, bumps, stiff controls, and placed its pilot in a cramped, squarish cockpit with poor visibility.
-- Col. Carson, USAF


<A HREF="http://www.air-source.us/operations/logbooks/LOGFLIGHTS.asp?PILNO=450" TARGET=_blank>http://www.air-source.us/images/Ribbons/AAS.gif
</A>

MEGILE
10-27-2006, 02:02 PM
the USN was beaten because Maverick came out as a naked volley-ball loving homo-sapien. He was subsequently discharged and is currently flying cargo planes full of rubber dog $h1t out of hong kong.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/2662/communistparty2up2.gif
YouTube Quote of the week - hey man, **** you because that dog is mad cute.

Hoarmurath
10-27-2006, 02:11 PM
ah yes, the US navy...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
ACTUAL transcript of a US naval ship with Canadian authorities off the coast of Newfoundland in October, 1995. This radio conversation was released by the Chief of Naval Operations on 10-10-95.

Americans: "Please divert your course 15 degrees to the North to avoid a collision."

Canadians: "Recommend you divert YOUR course 15 degrees to the South to avoid a collision."

Americans: "This is the captain of a US Navy ship. I say again, divert YOUR course."

Canadians: "No, I say again, you divert YOUR course."

Americans: "THIS IS THE AIRCRAFT CARRIER USS ABRAHAM LINCOLN, THE SECOND LARGEST SHIP IN THE UNITED STATES' ATLANTIC FLEET. WE ARE ACCOMPANIED BY THREE DESTROYERS, THREE CRUISERS AND NUMEROUS SUPPORT VESSELS. I DEMAND THAT YOU CHANGE YOUR COURSE 15 DEGREES NORTH. THAT'S ONE-FIVE DEGREES NORTH, OR COUNTER MEASURES WILL BE UNDERTAKEN TO ENSURE THE SAFETY OF THIS SHIP."

Canadians: "This is a lighthouse. Your call." </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

boxmike
10-27-2006, 02:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ploughman:
half way around the world to inflict pain an harm on an enemy though. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Talk about Tsushima Straits http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

USA bashing continues straight from to headline? Sometimes I wish Soviet Union was still there to scare the sh* out of everyones pants. Nuff said, let's forget about it, let's all bash US and afterwards go for more US bashing to local pub, eh? Easy world, isn't it?

US Navy got beaten at Guadalcanal, didn't they? USS Vincennes, Astoria, Atlanta (for Aussies, Canberra and Australia added) for example...How about Sullivan brothers? Soundl

HuninMunin
10-27-2006, 02:25 PM
I agree, the name of this thread indicates a certain cliente of this forums I'd rather not see...

leitmotiv
10-27-2006, 02:27 PM
Exactly. Sweden once the terror of the Baltic and look at the 30 Years War! Too bad about Poltava. American Swedes are famous for military exploits. Somebody's gotta do it!

GerritJ9
10-27-2006, 02:32 PM
No wonder the USN is sending their submarine officers for training to the Royal Netherlands Navy! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

The KNIL is dead. Long live the KNIL!

ploughman
10-27-2006, 02:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GerritJ9:
No wonder the USN is sending their submarine officers for training to the Royal Netherlands Navy! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, right. Holland, the only country on Earth that could actually be sunk by torpedo. I'd be careful of which navy you take the piss out of. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">


http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y289/mctomney/hellspenguin.jpg
Dum spiro, spero

woofiedog
10-27-2006, 02:37 PM
Somebody say... they needed a Light for their Cigarette! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v438/woofiedog/Picture087.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v438/woofiedog/Picture081.jpg <div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v438/woofiedog/Woofiedog1b.jpg

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leitmotiv
10-27-2006, 02:42 PM
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/ohio/images/ohio2.jpg

leitmotiv
10-27-2006, 02:45 PM
http://www.contemplator.com/america/aweigh.html

woofiedog
10-27-2006, 02:51 PM
LoL... We had to sing that while marching around inside the Gas Room with the Gas Mask's on.
Then half way through the song... our Petty Officer shouts out... Off With the Mask's! And if we missed a beat to the song... we would get to do it all over again. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v438/woofiedog/Woofiedog1b.jpg

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leitmotiv
10-27-2006, 02:54 PM
My father's WWII boat, CHARR, SS328, on the right:

http://www.navsource.org/archives/08/0832602.jpg

leitmotiv
10-27-2006, 02:56 PM
For obvious reasons, first song I ever learned, Woofiedog!

woofiedog
10-27-2006, 03:01 PM
We didn't have too much if a Choice at the time. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I was stationed on the USS Biddle DLG/CG 34.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v438/woofiedog/Woofiedog1b.jpg

Hunter 82's PC component shop
http://www.magnum-pc.com/
https://usm.channelonline.com/magnumpc/storesite/Search/External/

leitmotiv
10-27-2006, 03:06 PM
Volunteered for Navy OCS right out of graduate school in 1980 and was, to the consternation of the L.A. recruiters who fancied me a future tactical expert, turned down because I didn't study nuc'lar physics! Should have just gone in as a whitehat like dad.

woofiedog
10-27-2006, 03:21 PM
Never Believe those R

No601_prangster
10-27-2006, 03:27 PM
This has got nothing to do with Sweden it's just the Navy rustling up a "threat" before the next budget allocation. After all there are no point in having the largest fleet in the world if you've got no one to fight.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://www.ijeremiah.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/sig.jpg
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smokincrater
10-27-2006, 03:30 PM
Even Deisel Electric subs are still a threat to United States Navy carrier groups. HMAS Waller managed to put a dummy torpedo under the keel of USS Carl Vision in a war game three years ago. Submarines are still the offensive weapon of choice for interdictating sea communications.

Chuck_Older
10-27-2006, 03:33 PM
Funny, I wasn't aware that the US Navy was at War with Sweden.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/Chuck_Older/Jimmychamp.jpg
Flower of Scotland, will we see your like again?

leitmotiv
10-27-2006, 03:47 PM
Absolutely. Looks to me like the US and Sweden are pretty chummy. I mean, if the Swedish Govt really thought we were a threat, would they be helping us undo one of their weapons?!

leitmotiv
10-27-2006, 03:52 PM
Better to get coshed by an ally than to get coshed by the opposition. Getting whupped by the Germans and Brits in NATO land maneuvers was the best training there was for our army.

Sergio_101
10-27-2006, 03:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hoarmurath:
ah yes, the US navy...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
ACTUAL transcript of a US naval ship with Canadian authorities off the coast of Newfoundland in October, 1995. This radio conversation was released by the Chief of Naval Operations on 10-10-95.

Americans: "Please divert your course 15 degrees to the North to avoid a collision."

Canadians: "Recommend you divert YOUR course 15 degrees to the South to avoid a collision."

Americans: "This is the captain of a US Navy ship. I say again, divert YOUR course."

Canadians: "No, I say again, you divert YOUR course."

Americans: "THIS IS THE AIRCRAFT CARRIER USS ABRAHAM LINCOLN, THE SECOND LARGEST SHIP IN THE UNITED STATES' ATLANTIC FLEET. WE ARE ACCOMPANIED BY THREE DESTROYERS, THREE CRUISERS AND NUMEROUS SUPPORT VESSELS. I DEMAND THAT YOU CHANGE YOUR COURSE 15 DEGREES NORTH. THAT'S ONE-FIVE DEGREES NORTH, OR COUNTER MEASURES WILL BE UNDERTAKEN TO ENSURE THE SAFETY OF THIS SHIP."

Canadians: "This is a lighthouse. Your call." </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hoarmouth, it figures you would post a famous hoax.
Yep, it's a hoax, a internet hoax. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Sergio

Bewolf
10-27-2006, 04:13 PM
http://www.tk-marinesystems.de/bilder/produkte/submarines/submarine_start_gross.jpg



Be afraid. Be very very afraid http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

Bewolf

Never discuss with stupid people.
They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

leitmotiv
10-27-2006, 04:20 PM
Wir gegen auf Amerika?!!!!!

Hoarmurath
10-27-2006, 04:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sergio_101:
Hoarmouth, it figures you would post a famous hoax.
Yep, it's a hoax, a internet hoax. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Sergio </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, you're a hoax too, but at least, the one i posted is funny http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

BaronUnderpants
10-27-2006, 04:22 PM
No bashing of any sort on my account. Just a response to resent US bash the world threads, wich frankly gets old after a while. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Implying that we would speak russian if it wasnt for US just proves my point.


Just because u think your the best at everything doesnt nesecerilly mean u are, some humble pie does everyone some good from time to time.

P.S. As far as i know in a simillar exercise in the Medeteranian a few years ago......the same class of sub ( same one..dont know ) sunk thr entire US med. fleet.....twice. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Just thought it was cool, since im swedish....patriotic? well shoot me. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

And FYI...find another country activly trying to sink russian subs ( -80 ) in swedish costal waters and let me know what u come up with. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Honeypot.se
10-27-2006, 04:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">This has got nothing to do with Sweden it's just the Navy rustling up a "threat" before the next budget allocation. After all there are no point in having the largest fleet in the world if you've got no one to fight. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I was thinking the same at first. In the article our HMS Gotland is presented as some kind of super silent secret weapon. It's just a conventional sub. A fairly silent one, granted, but still. It's just that the US was too used to sniff the much more noisier nuclear subs, since that is what the USSR used to have.

But then I've been thinking there might be more at stake here. The ship builder behind the Gotland class (I might get censored if I try to post the company name hehe) is looking to sell and according to them prospective clients are located e.g. in - you guessed it - the Persian gulf and in E Asia. Maybe the USN wants to be sure it can beat Gotland before Sweden is "allowed" to pass the tech on. Maybe there is some pressure on Sweden right now concerning that sub, and if so, even a Swede could sympathize with any US concerns. After all, we're all in the same sub.

Once the USN can beat Gotland, though, who's gonna want to buy it? <img src="http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif" alt="R

leitmotiv
10-27-2006, 04:30 PM
Isn't the Swedish sub based on the latest German designs?, didn't Germany sell three of their subs to China in the '90's?, and didn't China sell one of their versions of the German sub to Iran?---or are all of Iran's vessels Russian made? Please correct any errors!

BaronUnderpants
10-27-2006, 04:33 PM
Not completly sure if im correct on this, but. Its a swedish company now bought up by a german that developed the tecnoligy.

Like i said, not sure.

Bewolf
10-27-2006, 04:34 PM
The swedish sub is a much older design then the german type 212. AFAIK the Gotland got her AIP retrofitted, while the type 212 was designed around that propulsion from the beginning.

Also AFAIk, I do not think China, or Iran, ever got german subs. At least I never heared of that and considering the harsh weapons export resitrictions in Germany I kinda doubt that ever happend.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

Bewolf

Never discuss with stupid people.
They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

BaronUnderpants
10-27-2006, 04:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Honeypot.se:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">This has got nothing to do with Sweden it's just the Navy rustling up a "threat" before the next budget allocation. After all there are no point in having the largest fleet in the world if you've got no one to fight. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I was thinking the same at first. In the article our HMS Gotland is presented as some kind of super silent secret weapon. It's just a conventional sub. A fairly silent one, granted, but still. It's just that the US was too used to sniff the much more noisier nuclear subs, since that is what the USSR used to have.

But then I've been thinking there might be more at stake here. The ship builder behind the Gotland class (I might get censored if I try to post the company name hehe) is looking to sell and according to them prospective clients are located e.g. in - you guessed it - the Persian gulf and in E Asia. Maybe the USN wants to be sure it can beat Gotland before Sweden is "allowed" to pass the tech on. Maybe there is some pressure on Sweden right now concerning that sub, and if so, even a Swede could sympathize with any US concerns. After all, we're all in the same sub.

Once the USN can beat Gotland, though, who's gonna want to buy it? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Deisel subs has allways been more deadly in that respect. the drawback is that it cant stay submerged for long, this new class allowes the sub to produce its own air while submerged thus extending its time below. If this makes it even more stealthy in terms of noise i dont know. In effect this makes its just as deadly as nuclear subs since the time under water isnt dictated by fuel and air but by how much food it can carry for its crew.

Personally i think Subs is kind if yesterdays wepons.

HuninMunin
10-27-2006, 04:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bewolf:
The swedish sub is a much older design then the german type 212. AFAIK the Gotland got her AIP retrofitted, while the type 212 was designed around that propulsion from the beginning.

Also AFAIk, I do not think China, or Iran, ever got german subs. At least I never heared of that and considering the harsh weapons export resitrictions in Germany I kinda doubt that ever happend. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

From my memory I seem to recall that the Iran or Saudi Arabia have some type 206 subs.
Israel has 2 type 212 ordered/recived.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

----------------------------------
.....he was seeking that one moment...the moment in wich all his life would crumble under the bright clearness of his mind.....where in a second everything would be lost or won.
Clearness in the last moment - The warrior's only hope and dream
----------------------------------

http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/633/sigvp0.jpg

Simon "Hunin" Phoenix
Servant of Wotan and Tyr
True knight of the Endlich-Thread

Bewolf
10-27-2006, 05:00 PM
Italy got two 214s. Isreal got or is going to get two dolphin class subs. Both AFAIK, never dug too deep into the subject, so I may very well be wrong here.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

Bewolf

Never discuss with stupid people.
They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

leitmotiv
10-27-2006, 05:04 PM
Apologies---I was thinking of the rumored sale of German submarines to Taiwan (which was completely false), and the transport of Russian Kilo class subs to China in the '90's. They do not have German subs---thankfully! Anybody who thinks small coastal subs can't do damage should contemplate what U-9 did in Sept 1914 to ABOUKIR, CRESSY, and HOGUE!

Wtornado_439th
10-27-2006, 05:06 PM
Propaganda **** to let the Pentagon spend another 4 billion on silent subs and thier
detection.

Fear makes a country's best budget.

What a load of ****. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

HuninMunin
10-27-2006, 05:09 PM
The Dolphins are basicaly 212s with Diesel engines IIRC.
The two italian ships arent 212s?
I always thought so; they just entered service this summer.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

----------------------------------
.....he was seeking that one moment...the moment in wich all his life would crumble under the bright clearness of his mind.....where in a second everything would be lost or won.
Clearness in the last moment - The warrior's only hope and dream
----------------------------------

http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/633/sigvp0.jpg

Simon "Hunin" Phoenix
Servant of Wotan and Tyr
True knight of the Endlich-Thread

marc_hawkins
10-27-2006, 05:23 PM
triad773:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Hegemony is fleeting at best
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lession of history #1<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d156/marc410/yellow15_1s.jpg
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.

GerritJ9
10-27-2006, 05:42 PM
Ploughman- go to www.dutchsubmarines.com (http://www.dutchsubmarines.com) and look under "specials" http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
The mighty USN just can't do without us..... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

The KNIL is dead. Long live the KNIL!

Bewolf
10-27-2006, 06:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HuninMunin:
The Dolphins are basicaly 212s with Diesel engines IIRC.
The two italian ships arent 212s?
I always thought so; they just entered service this summer. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The 214s are basicly export Versions of the 212s. Don't ask me for specific details, but I heared the 212s have a special hull construction, by rumors enabling them to dive as deep as 700m (2100 feet). Exact numbers are classified, though.
The 214s "only" manage 400m (1200 feet).<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

Bewolf

Never discuss with stupid people.
They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Ishmael932
10-27-2006, 06:36 PM
As a former tin-can sonarman who has attempted to track and prosecute subs in those waters off San Diego, I can assure you that they have some of the worst water conditions in the world for sonar. That said, I think the Navy has gotten overdependent on passive sonar for tracking purposes. I was there at the beginning of the passive revolution in the mid 70's with the towed TASS arrays and the SOSUS stations. They were ideal at the time but technology changes with time and tactics must change to keep up. It looks like it's time to go back to active sonar searches and pay close attention to your bathythermograph drops and your predicted sonar ranges in and below the surface duct.

I have personally gotten active sonar contacts at ranges out to 20 miles depending on the sonar mode used. The capability exists for even greater ranges in deep ocean. It seems that the Navy better refit and return all of those Knox-class 1052 escorts to service as their active sonars are definitely up to the job.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

As my daddy used to say:
Just remember son, no matter where you are at sea, you're never more than 7 miles from land... Straight Down.
http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/9459/noscumallowed0032yc.th.jpg (http://img95.imageshack.us/my.php?image=noscumallowed0032yc.jpg)

geetarman
10-27-2006, 06:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hoarmurath:
ah yes, the US navy...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
ACTUAL transcript of a US naval ship with Canadian authorities off the coast of Newfoundland in October, 1995. This radio conversation was released by the Chief of Naval Operations on 10-10-95.

Americans: "Please divert your course 15 degrees to the North to avoid a collision."

Canadians: "Recommend you divert YOUR course 15 degrees to the South to avoid a collision."

Americans: "This is the captain of a US Navy ship. I say again, divert YOUR course."

Canadians: "No, I say again, you divert YOUR course."

Americans: "THIS IS THE AIRCRAFT CARRIER USS ABRAHAM LINCOLN, THE SECOND LARGEST SHIP IN THE UNITED STATES' ATLANTIC FLEET. WE ARE ACCOMPANIED BY THREE DESTROYERS, THREE CRUISERS AND NUMEROUS SUPPORT VESSELS. I DEMAND THAT YOU CHANGE YOUR COURSE 15 DEGREES NORTH. THAT'S ONE-FIVE DEGREES NORTH, OR COUNTER MEASURES WILL BE UNDERTAKEN TO ENSURE THE SAFETY OF THIS SHIP."

Canadians: "This is a lighthouse. Your call." </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

As one of the biggest US armed forces fans on this site, I have to admit, I was rolling after reading this one! Duh!!

geetarman
10-27-2006, 06:46 PM
Hey - Give the USN some credit. At least they realise their pants are down and actually got the owners to turn over one to them so we can learn the secrets.

leitmotiv
10-27-2006, 06:51 PM
Thanks for the insight, Ishmael. Have any experience in the Persian Gulf? Could Iran play out the nightmare scenario there some have suggested?

Jaws2002
10-27-2006, 06:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hoarmurath:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sergio_101:
Hoarmouth, it figures you would post a famous hoax.
Yep, it's a hoax, a internet hoax. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Sergio </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, you're a hoax too, but at least, the one i posted is funny http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

10+ http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif
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Ishmael932
10-27-2006, 07:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by leitmotiv:
Thanks for the insight, Ishmael. Have any experience in the Persian Gulf? Could Iran play out the nightmare scenario there some have suggested? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually yes. I was in the Gulf in 1973 when we visited Bandar Abbas, Iran. The Gulf is very shallow and very warm water. Both factors contribute to good active sonar ranges because the surface duct basically runs all the way to the bottom and the higher temp contributes to greater ranges. The one drawback is a sub staying silent on the bottom. While a sub in that position might get lost in the bottom return, any metallic object will give a distinctly identifiable audio return if your sonarman's ears are sharp enough to pick it up. The other disadvantage of the sub in such shallow waters is the use of MAD or Magnetic Anomaly Detectors. All ASW helos are equipped with such gear. The key would be in differentiating a sub from the plethora of offshore oil platforms in the Gulf. So If I'm an Iranian sub driver, I'm going to park my boat as close to a platform as I can get and use my supercavitating torpedoes(top speed 300km/hr) when the task force gets close enough in range. Once he fires one of those though, the rest of the fleet will be all over him like a cheap suit.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

As my daddy used to say:
Just remember son, no matter where you are at sea, you're never more than 7 miles from land... Straight Down.
http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/9459/noscumallowed0032yc.th.jpg (http://img95.imageshack.us/my.php?image=noscumallowed0032yc.jpg)

woofiedog
10-28-2006, 04:52 AM
Bewolf... That is the new German Sub in your picture you posted.

http://www.h2mobility.org/6_shipdata/ship_images/s005a.jpg

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/type_212/images/type212_9.jpg
Siemens/HDW fuel-cell submarine U-214 with metal hydride storage.

Fuel cell sub starts maiden voyage
The world???s first submarine with a fuel cell propulsion system started its maiden voyage today.

U 31, the first of four "212 A" Class submarines to be delivered to the German Navy, is now beginning its sea trials in the Baltic Sea following extensive port tests at the construction yard, Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft AG, Kiel.

In an initial phase from Kiel, U 31 will undertake shallow water trials in the western part of the Baltic Sea. The entire marine engineering system and operation is to be checked on. Aside from the crew, both shipyard and supplier staff as well as inspection personnel of the German Office for Defense Technology & Procurement (BWB) will be on board.

http://www.marinelog.com/IMAGESMMIII/u31.jpg

The other half of the trials mainly revolves around deep-water trials. It is expected that U 31 will be leaving home waters for the first time at the end of July 2003, heading for Norway.

The main ports of call will be Kristiansand, Stavanger and Bergen, with assistance being given by the Norwegian Navy through its facilities. Acoustics, sonar and the fire control system (F??WES) will be tested during the depth diving trials, preferably in the Skagerak. And the first practice torpedoes are to be fired as well.

With the trials over, U 31 will return to Kiel in mid-March 2004 for any remaining work to be dealt with in the yard. The submarine will then be commissioned by the German Navy.

The new submarine class developed by HDW features air-independent propulsion based on a hydrogen fuel cell. HDW thus becomes the world's first company to deliver a production-stage fuel cell propulsion system that enables the boat to operate submerged for several weeks at a time. Moreover, as the boat neither generates any noise nor heat from exhaust fumes it is virtually undetectable.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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woofiedog
10-28-2006, 05:04 AM
leitmotiv... USS Charr SS-328

http://www.usscharr-ss328.org/files/CharrUnderway1.jpg

http://www.usscharr-ss328.org/files/CharrCropped3.jpg
Interesting paint scheme.

Links to USS Charr (SS-328):
http://www.usscharr-ss328.org/files/CharrHistory.htm
http://www.usscharr-ss328.org/
http://www.navsource.org/archives/08/08328.htm<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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WTE_Ibis
10-28-2006, 06:06 AM
Vice Admiral Bernard ???Bud??? Kauderer, a member of the JINSA Board of Advisors, said, ???the decline in ASW coincided with the end of the Cold War. The greatest threat posed to the U.S. in submarine warfare was the USSR, which at its peak reached up to 300 subs, both diesel and nuclear. There was no other force that comprised a significant threat to our Navy. There are other capable forces, but they???re very small. The decline of the USSR paralleled the decline in our focus on ASW. Instead, our naval forces became more involved in strike warfare. ASW is an art that needs to be practiced.??? For example, in 2002 during the biennial RIMPAC, exercises involving the navies of the U.S., South Korea, Canada, Japan, Chile, Peru, and Australia, an AUSTRALIAN Collins-class diesel-electric submarine was able to score multiple kills against two U.S. Los Angeles-class nuclear-powered attack submarines.
http://premium1.uploadit.org/Ibissix//2875.jpg <div class="ev_tpc_signature">

LStarosta: -That was the most entertaining thing I've read all day, granted I just woke up.

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leitmotiv
10-28-2006, 06:07 AM
Thanks for the info, Ishmael1932. Looks like any Iranian subs would have brief but eventful careers.

Thanks for the phots and info, woofiedog. CHARR was a gunboat, 5"/25s fore and aft. My father was a gunner on one, and he was the boat's diver. He was "volunteered" to join RN divers on a mission to put explosive on the hull of a Japanese cruiser in Singapore harbor---suicide mission the divers figured. Fortunately, the idea was thrown out. He started out as a PT Boat crewman out of Pearl. They were so bored they hit the torp alcohol. Once they wobbled back to Pearl with a blind drunk Lieutenant. He had enough of this and went into subs for the pay and steaks.

Ishmael932
10-28-2006, 09:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by woofiedog:
leitmotiv... USS Charr SS-328

http://www.usscharr-ss328.org/files/CharrUnderway1.jpg

http://www.usscharr-ss328.org/files/CharrCropped3.jpg
Interesting paint scheme.

Links to USS Charr (SS-328):
http://www.usscharr-ss328.org/files/CharrHistory.htm
http://www.usscharr-ss328.org/
http://www.navsource.org/archives/08/08328.htm </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That bottom photo of the Charr was taken at the mouth of the Napa River. That's Mare Island hill in back with the old torpedo magazines below it. I lived just north of where that pic was taken on Sandy Beach for 5 years. There are about 50 houses built on piers over the Bay there across from that hill. Here's a pic of me taken there at that time

http://img158.imageshack.us/img158/3725/pappyishmael001mb4.jpg <div class="ev_tpc_signature">

As my daddy used to say:
Just remember son, no matter where you are at sea, you're never more than 7 miles from land... Straight Down.
http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/9459/noscumallowed0032yc.th.jpg (http://img95.imageshack.us/my.php?image=noscumallowed0032yc.jpg)

heywooood
10-28-2006, 09:32 AM
Something is missing from that last picture....


Stephen Stills - Graham Nash - Neil Young maybe?

or is it just me...


I wouldn't read too much into the Navy sub trials - the Boomer class only needs to maintain the secret location of one boat to be successful in that last ditch scenario.

Besides - you want to instill some motivation in your crews, there is no teacher like failure in practice to enhance and refocus ones dedication and diligence.

Coaches love failure - it is an invaluable aid if used wisely and is only demoralizing if the mistakes are repeated. Can't have that. Thats called a critical failure and it is to be avoided at all cost.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/heywooood/afewofTheFew-1.jpg

A few of The Few

horseback
10-28-2006, 11:13 AM
No, you're thinking of David Crosby.
Or maybe Tommy Chong.

On subject, I spent a good three years on a Fast Frigate back in the seventies, before the environmentalists got a hair up their **ses about active sonar hurting the whales (and I'm not convinced that they're wrong). I then spent a few years working on ASW systems and documentation before the end of the Cold War, so I think I have some insights.

Since the USN has to project power rather than merely protect its own coasts, conventional powered subs are not cost effective, so the decision has been to stay with nuclear powered boats, which up until the last twenty years or so were about as quiet as diesel electric boats. However, since a certain Japanese company gave away the machining methods for the USN's quieter screws back in the eighties, the diesels have built up a bit of an edge, but it still requires a competent captain and crew to make them effective.

Since the best chow hall at Pearl Harbor is in the Sub base area, I usually conspired back in my young squid days, to have an errand to run in that vicinity in the late morning, and got to know a number of 'bubbleheads'. As a group, they were smarter and more competent/consciencious than the average bear; even the cooks and boatswain's mates could offer intelligent conversation and sharp observations about more than where the best bars are on Hotel Street. I never met a dummy wearing dolphins over his breast pocket.

When I got out of the Navy, I was fortunate enough to sign onto a project headed by a retired submarine captain: think fighter pilot's balls and ego coupled with a doctorate degree in nuclear physics. It was like stuffing Chuck Yeager into a barrel shaped, near sighted body. The man was sharp as hell, and very good with his people.

In fact, I was working for him at the time that The Hunt For Red October was published, and we discussed the book and the fact that had either of us written it, we'd be in Levenworth the same day.

We also talked about the kind of people who can successfully crew a submarine. My boss was absolutely convinced that certain cultures are simply incapable of the unique discipline required for wartime submarine operations because the demand for absolute obedience and the simultaneous requirement for audacious & independent leaders who can improvise on the fly.

He was not in the least concerned with a Middle Eastern country like Iran or Libya getting the latest Soviet diesel subs; he was much more concerned with the Chinese and North Koreans, who he thought had been breeding for the perfect submarine crewmen for five thousand years.

Having trained in the Navy with Saudi and Iranian (before the Ayatollah) sailors, and being married at the time to a Chinese, I thought he had a point.

Submarines are only as dangerous as their crews' basic abilities, training and leadership allow them to be. Just having the technology and knowing how to use it in a general way is not enough. Building an effective modern submarine force is hard, and it can't be done in a few years. Starting from near scratch (no navy, no tradition) makes the task all the harder.

Operating subs in the shallow and relatively uncluttered Persian Gulf against a well trained and practiced opposition with significant air and sea assets would be a challenge for the best submarine forces in the world today; I don't see Iran or anyone else in that area developing a credible threat in the near term.

The Chinese and Koreans are a whole different class of trouble though, and they have already started building their submarine forces up. I expect that the USN's Pacific Fleet is going to spend a LOT more time on ASW over the next twenty years or so.

By renting the Gotland and her crew for a few years, the USN is just trying to keep its skill level up and stay ahead of the threat curve. You can only do that by competing at a very high level with players who operate a somewhat dissimilar doctrine, which is the level the Swedes are at and what they do.

cheers

horseback<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" -LTCOL Don Blakeslee, 4th FG CO, February 27th, 1944

Bewolf
10-28-2006, 12:38 PM
I do not know, maybe this got kinda lost, but we are not talking conventional Diesel Electric subs here, but a new propulsion system enabling convential subs to stay submerged for weeks, if not months without snorkling or engaging other noise making machinery then their electric engines.

Just to throw that in, as most replies were aimed at, or at least appeared that way, conventional diesel electric subs.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

Bewolf

Never discuss with stupid people.
They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

leitmotiv
10-28-2006, 12:40 PM
Many thanks for the briefing, horseback!

horseback
10-28-2006, 11:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bewolf:
I do not know, maybe this got kinda lost, but we are not talking conventional Diesel Electric subs here, but a new propulsion system enabling convential subs to stay submerged for weeks, if not months without snorkling or engaging other noise making machinery then their electric engines.

Just to throw that in, as most replies were aimed at, or at least appeared that way, conventional diesel electric subs. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>My point would still be valid; an attack submarine is a lot like an epee, in that it is a deadly and effective weapon in the hands of someone skilled & practiced enough to use it, but little better than a long needle in the hands of the average man.

It looks to me as though the Gotland's propulsion system may be fine for a small submarine dedicated to taking out other subs or surface targets, but what I've heard here in San Diego indicates that it may not translate well to the larger missile carrying type sub.

Either way, a new quiet submarine design still requires a well trained, competent & well led crew to be effective. Without that, it's like giving a street punk a hand grenade and not telling him how long he has after pulling the pin.

cheers

horseback<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" -LTCOL Don Blakeslee, 4th FG CO, February 27th, 1944

woofiedog
10-29-2006, 12:30 AM
Ishmael932... Wicked Cool shirt! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

*about 50 houses built on piers*

Must have been Very Nice in the summer... but a bit on the Cold side with a winter wind blowing.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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