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View Full Version : Errr... a bit OT, but perhaps someone here will be able to help me.(released :) )



Escar
09-01-2004, 03:10 PM
It's OT because it's not about LO-MAC. But just a bit OT, because it's about moviemaking and about sim community. Just not this one. SilentHunter II sim community. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

But to the point.

While being recently abroad in Germany I made a VHS movie of U-995, U-boot that's currently located in Laboe and preserved as "Technisches Museum". I promised guys from the fleet (www.sh2fleet.com (http://www.sh2fleet.com)) that I'll bring back this movie and digitize it for them when I buy new HDD's. Well, I did buy new HDD's. And for the past three days I've been trying to grab it with my tuner.

FRUSTRATING EXPERIENCE!!

First I had lots of problems with drivers, none seemed to work. Some didn't work with the card at all, some worked with the card, but not with the software.

Finally I came upon www.iulabs.com (http://www.iulabs.com) and drivers I've found there worked and with iuVCR (a recorder utility found on the very same site) I was able to grab the movie.

But, there's a problem with the sound. :|

First of all, this is what I'm using:
PixelView Play TV Pro PV-BT878P+ w/FM with iuLabs tweaked WDM driver (only this driver works) and iuLabs lates iuVCR. My system specs can be found in the bottom of this post and as you'll see, my system is quite capable of grabbing anything without any problems. Besides that I have a Philips VR400 Video Recorder attached to my PC, but I suppose that this information is not so crucial. VCR is connected to the tuner with composite cable and to the sound card line-in with chinch-to-midijack cable.

I'm grabbing films in 768x576, YUV2, 25 FPS, video compression none, audio compression none, audio 48K, 16bit, stereo. No frames get lost in the process (lost frames count=0).

On this trip, besides the U995 film, I've made several other films. All were transferred to regular VHS tapes. Except one, that is still on tiny videocamera tape. Needless to say, the U-995 recording is on that little tape. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif I can't transfer this film to a regular tape as I did with previous films, because I don't have the camera anymore. I've attached my VCR to my PC via chinch and composite cables and I'm playing the mini tape through big-tape adaptor (mother-tape).

With these drivers and this recorder I've managed to grab several films already. No problems. All those films were previously recorded directly from the camera to a VCR (simple transfer, mini tape in the camera, camera conected to a VCR, press play on camera, press rec on VCR.) and now from the regular (big) VCR tape to my computer. No problems at all. Picture perfect, sound perfectly alligned.

However, it's not so when I play this little tape (with the U995 film) through tape-adaptor. :| Sound it's not where it's supposed to be. And it's not that it's too late or too early during the whole film. Skew is not constant. I could easily overcome this either by adding stream offset in grabbing settings or rerecording the whole thing with skew adjustment (plus or minus) in VirtualDub.

Problem is... at the beggining sounds seems to be perfect, or just a bit too early, in the middle it's sometimes lagging 3-3,5 seconds and in the end... it either doesn't lag at all or it lags 4-4,5 seconds or even 9 seconds (differs with settings, see below). Setting any audio stream offset only adds or subtracts to the existing skews.

As I said, the configuration of the iuVCR recorder is as follows:
film filesize limit none.
all localized settings set correctly (PAL-D or PAL-B for European equipment)
768x576, YUV2, 25 FPS, video compression none.
audio compression none, audio 48K, 16bit, stereo (48K because SB Live! with 46KB setting ALWAYS produces sound skew).

I've tried the following in the options settings:
1. Use standard Mux with Interleave: None
AVI Compatibility Index On
No master stream selected
Short audio samples
(all other things turned off)

This produces a file which lags 3 seconds in the middle and is perfectly alligned in the beggining and in the end.

2. Use standard Mux with Interleave: Full
AVI Compatibility Index On
No master stream selected
Short audio samples
(all other things turned off)

This produces a file that lags 3 seconds in the middle and 4-4,5 seconds in the end.

3. Use standard Mux with Interleave: Full
AVI Compatibility Index On
Master Stream Audio
Short audio samples
(all other things turned off)

This produces a file that has a sound 1-2 seconds too early in the middle and is perfectly alligned in the end.

4. Use standard Mux with Interleave: Full
AVI Compatibility Index On
Master Stream Video
Short audio samples
(all other things turned off)

This produces a file which lags 6!! seconds in the middle and 8-9 seconds in the end.

5. Standard MUX disabled (internal mode)
Short Audio Samples

This produces a file that lags 1 second in the middle but 8-9 seconds in the end.


Other films record ok with settings number "2". Only this film doesn't record ok with any of the above settings. :|

I've tried lowering resolution to 640x480 thinking, that somehow tuner can't keep up. Didn't help. I've tried adjusting the sound in Virtual Dub, but since those lags differ in each part of the film (25 minutes 30 seconds long), whenever I alligned the sound in one part, it wasn't alligned in the other. I've tried setting maximum file size to split the recording and then combine it in VirtualDub, but when I try to do this I get information that files have diffrent FPS settings (don't know how, since it's set to 25 FPS in). I've tried recording the film with stock drivers and stock capture device and no luck either (even worse, with stock programs skew is present in all recordings http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif ). I've tried using various drivers and various recorders, none work except for the drivers from iuLabs and iuVCR (and I don't mean that other programs produce skew... other programs don't record picture at all, even VirtualDub fails, with most drivers it records only static, with iuLabs drivers it records only lower half of the picture).

So... what am I supposed to do? Do I have to split it into several parts with VirtualDub and set diffrent skew adjustment for each part and then recombine those files? Or do I have to record 5 minute parts and then combine them (I'm affraid that I'll get this FPS mismatch error again, since it's not so diffrent then setting maximum file size and splitting the material this way. :| )?

What to do? I mean, this is all thinking about correcting the problem. Is there a way to eliminate the source of the problem? Some sort of settings that allow for perfect capture? And if there is non, if the source of the problem is uncorrectable, how to correct the problem? Split the video and audio streams and then recombine them?

Help. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I've wasted couple of hours trying out the above settings and nothing. And since no-one's doing my work for me, I can't dedicate any more time for this and I'd sure love to release this film someday. :|

Two funny observations:
At the beggining of the recording statistics show average FPS 16, then it quickly rises to 24 FPS and then slowly crawls up to almost 25 FPS (24.9x something). This and the FPS mismatch error reported by VirtualDub (when I tried to connect files splitted automatically by "limit file size" function) puzzle me, since FPS for recording is set to 25 FPS in the iuVCR configuration. Is this the source of the problem? How to overcome it? Also, there's a line of static in the bottom of the screen (probably because the tape is a bit worn-out, but maybe it's because of the mother-tape my Philips VCR is not playing the tape at proper speed?).

Any comments, or especially a walkthrough of what to do with this problem, are welcomed. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

My configuration is as follows:
AMD Athlon 2500@3000 XP+ (Barton) 1826 @ 2167 MHz (stable)

Gigabyte K7Triton Series GA-7VT600 1394 VIA KT600 Motherboard 166&333 @ 197&394 MHz FSB

768 MB DDR PC-400 KingMax CL 2.5 RAM 200&400 @ 197&394 MHz

Leadtek Winfast A360-TDH256 nVidia GF FX 5700 256 MB DUAL 425GPU&500 @ 500GPU&615MHz / 78MHz AGP 8x BUS

LG Flatron 900B @ 1280&960 85 Hz

VT8237 RAID0 64 KB cluster / 2x Maxtor DiamondMax 9 Plus 120 GB (228 GB useable total) 7200 RPM SATA-150 / NTFSx1 partition (boot)

Maxtor DiamondMax 9 Plus 80 GB 7200 RPM UATA-100 / NTFSx1 partition (spare)

Sound Blaster Live! 1024 Player (The Original Series) & Dolby Surround 4.1 Cambridge SoundWorks

Windows 2000 Professional Service Pack 4 / DirectX 9.0c / MediaTech MT168 Tomahawk / 350 W Enlight PSU

160/640 kbps ADSL



ps:
Also, recording with the last settings (internal MUX) produces a very poor quality sound. :|



Jan "Escar" Hytry
Out from the shadows for a longer time.Smbd lend me some sun block. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
http://republika.pl/escar/lf.jpg
My missions (http://republika.pl/escar/lomac.htm)
System specs (http://republika.pl/escar/specs.htm)

[This message was edited by Escar on Sun September 05 2004 at 09:27 AM.]

[This message was edited by Escar on Mon September 06 2004 at 01:26 PM.]

Escar
09-01-2004, 03:10 PM
It's OT because it's not about LO-MAC. But just a bit OT, because it's about moviemaking and about sim community. Just not this one. SilentHunter II sim community. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

But to the point.

While being recently abroad in Germany I made a VHS movie of U-995, U-boot that's currently located in Laboe and preserved as "Technisches Museum". I promised guys from the fleet (www.sh2fleet.com (http://www.sh2fleet.com)) that I'll bring back this movie and digitize it for them when I buy new HDD's. Well, I did buy new HDD's. And for the past three days I've been trying to grab it with my tuner.

FRUSTRATING EXPERIENCE!!

First I had lots of problems with drivers, none seemed to work. Some didn't work with the card at all, some worked with the card, but not with the software.

Finally I came upon www.iulabs.com (http://www.iulabs.com) and drivers I've found there worked and with iuVCR (a recorder utility found on the very same site) I was able to grab the movie.

But, there's a problem with the sound. :|

First of all, this is what I'm using:
PixelView Play TV Pro PV-BT878P+ w/FM with iuLabs tweaked WDM driver (only this driver works) and iuLabs lates iuVCR. My system specs can be found in the bottom of this post and as you'll see, my system is quite capable of grabbing anything without any problems. Besides that I have a Philips VR400 Video Recorder attached to my PC, but I suppose that this information is not so crucial. VCR is connected to the tuner with composite cable and to the sound card line-in with chinch-to-midijack cable.

I'm grabbing films in 768x576, YUV2, 25 FPS, video compression none, audio compression none, audio 48K, 16bit, stereo. No frames get lost in the process (lost frames count=0).

On this trip, besides the U995 film, I've made several other films. All were transferred to regular VHS tapes. Except one, that is still on tiny videocamera tape. Needless to say, the U-995 recording is on that little tape. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif I can't transfer this film to a regular tape as I did with previous films, because I don't have the camera anymore. I've attached my VCR to my PC via chinch and composite cables and I'm playing the mini tape through big-tape adaptor (mother-tape).

With these drivers and this recorder I've managed to grab several films already. No problems. All those films were previously recorded directly from the camera to a VCR (simple transfer, mini tape in the camera, camera conected to a VCR, press play on camera, press rec on VCR.) and now from the regular (big) VCR tape to my computer. No problems at all. Picture perfect, sound perfectly alligned.

However, it's not so when I play this little tape (with the U995 film) through tape-adaptor. :| Sound it's not where it's supposed to be. And it's not that it's too late or too early during the whole film. Skew is not constant. I could easily overcome this either by adding stream offset in grabbing settings or rerecording the whole thing with skew adjustment (plus or minus) in VirtualDub.

Problem is... at the beggining sounds seems to be perfect, or just a bit too early, in the middle it's sometimes lagging 3-3,5 seconds and in the end... it either doesn't lag at all or it lags 4-4,5 seconds or even 9 seconds (differs with settings, see below). Setting any audio stream offset only adds or subtracts to the existing skews.

As I said, the configuration of the iuVCR recorder is as follows:
film filesize limit none.
all localized settings set correctly (PAL-D or PAL-B for European equipment)
768x576, YUV2, 25 FPS, video compression none.
audio compression none, audio 48K, 16bit, stereo (48K because SB Live! with 46KB setting ALWAYS produces sound skew).

I've tried the following in the options settings:
1. Use standard Mux with Interleave: None
AVI Compatibility Index On
No master stream selected
Short audio samples
(all other things turned off)

This produces a file which lags 3 seconds in the middle and is perfectly alligned in the beggining and in the end.

2. Use standard Mux with Interleave: Full
AVI Compatibility Index On
No master stream selected
Short audio samples
(all other things turned off)

This produces a file that lags 3 seconds in the middle and 4-4,5 seconds in the end.

3. Use standard Mux with Interleave: Full
AVI Compatibility Index On
Master Stream Audio
Short audio samples
(all other things turned off)

This produces a file that has a sound 1-2 seconds too early in the middle and is perfectly alligned in the end.

4. Use standard Mux with Interleave: Full
AVI Compatibility Index On
Master Stream Video
Short audio samples
(all other things turned off)

This produces a file which lags 6!! seconds in the middle and 8-9 seconds in the end.

5. Standard MUX disabled (internal mode)
Short Audio Samples

This produces a file that lags 1 second in the middle but 8-9 seconds in the end.


Other films record ok with settings number "2". Only this film doesn't record ok with any of the above settings. :|

I've tried lowering resolution to 640x480 thinking, that somehow tuner can't keep up. Didn't help. I've tried adjusting the sound in Virtual Dub, but since those lags differ in each part of the film (25 minutes 30 seconds long), whenever I alligned the sound in one part, it wasn't alligned in the other. I've tried setting maximum file size to split the recording and then combine it in VirtualDub, but when I try to do this I get information that files have diffrent FPS settings (don't know how, since it's set to 25 FPS in). I've tried recording the film with stock drivers and stock capture device and no luck either (even worse, with stock programs skew is present in all recordings http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif ). I've tried using various drivers and various recorders, none work except for the drivers from iuLabs and iuVCR (and I don't mean that other programs produce skew... other programs don't record picture at all, even VirtualDub fails, with most drivers it records only static, with iuLabs drivers it records only lower half of the picture).

So... what am I supposed to do? Do I have to split it into several parts with VirtualDub and set diffrent skew adjustment for each part and then recombine those files? Or do I have to record 5 minute parts and then combine them (I'm affraid that I'll get this FPS mismatch error again, since it's not so diffrent then setting maximum file size and splitting the material this way. :| )?

What to do? I mean, this is all thinking about correcting the problem. Is there a way to eliminate the source of the problem? Some sort of settings that allow for perfect capture? And if there is non, if the source of the problem is uncorrectable, how to correct the problem? Split the video and audio streams and then recombine them?

Help. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I've wasted couple of hours trying out the above settings and nothing. And since no-one's doing my work for me, I can't dedicate any more time for this and I'd sure love to release this film someday. :|

Two funny observations:
At the beggining of the recording statistics show average FPS 16, then it quickly rises to 24 FPS and then slowly crawls up to almost 25 FPS (24.9x something). This and the FPS mismatch error reported by VirtualDub (when I tried to connect files splitted automatically by "limit file size" function) puzzle me, since FPS for recording is set to 25 FPS in the iuVCR configuration. Is this the source of the problem? How to overcome it? Also, there's a line of static in the bottom of the screen (probably because the tape is a bit worn-out, but maybe it's because of the mother-tape my Philips VCR is not playing the tape at proper speed?).

Any comments, or especially a walkthrough of what to do with this problem, are welcomed. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

My configuration is as follows:
AMD Athlon 2500@3000 XP+ (Barton) 1826 @ 2167 MHz (stable)

Gigabyte K7Triton Series GA-7VT600 1394 VIA KT600 Motherboard 166&333 @ 197&394 MHz FSB

768 MB DDR PC-400 KingMax CL 2.5 RAM 200&400 @ 197&394 MHz

Leadtek Winfast A360-TDH256 nVidia GF FX 5700 256 MB DUAL 425GPU&500 @ 500GPU&615MHz / 78MHz AGP 8x BUS

LG Flatron 900B @ 1280&960 85 Hz

VT8237 RAID0 64 KB cluster / 2x Maxtor DiamondMax 9 Plus 120 GB (228 GB useable total) 7200 RPM SATA-150 / NTFSx1 partition (boot)

Maxtor DiamondMax 9 Plus 80 GB 7200 RPM UATA-100 / NTFSx1 partition (spare)

Sound Blaster Live! 1024 Player (The Original Series) & Dolby Surround 4.1 Cambridge SoundWorks

Windows 2000 Professional Service Pack 4 / DirectX 9.0c / MediaTech MT168 Tomahawk / 350 W Enlight PSU

160/640 kbps ADSL



ps:
Also, recording with the last settings (internal MUX) produces a very poor quality sound. :|



Jan "Escar" Hytry
Out from the shadows for a longer time.Smbd lend me some sun block. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
http://republika.pl/escar/lf.jpg
My missions (http://republika.pl/escar/lomac.htm)
System specs (http://republika.pl/escar/specs.htm)

[This message was edited by Escar on Sun September 05 2004 at 09:27 AM.]

[This message was edited by Escar on Mon September 06 2004 at 01:26 PM.]

Merudo
09-01-2004, 04:05 PM
I'm not too experienced with these sorts of things, but If the small mini tape is what's causing the problem, have you thought of using a second VCR to transfer it over to a full-size VHS tape? Perhaps then you can capture it without any problems, if indeed that is the source of the problem.

Hope I could help http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Escar
09-02-2004, 09:00 AM
No dice. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif I've check with my old Samsung VCR. Almost lost the tape in the process, because that old VCR is... well, old. I guess I'd have to use that camera, but I doubt I'll ever have access to it again. Besides, the tape really starts to wear off because of all the replaying. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

I'm going to try to divide the film with no skew in the end and front and least skew in the middle. That would be the film recorded with those settings:
Use standard Mux with Interleave: Full
AVI Compatibility Index On
Master Stream Audio
Short audio samples
(all other things turned off)

With those settings sound is skewed ahead of the picture. First the sound appears, then the picture corresponding with the sound.

I've managed to determine that in the beggining (4th minute) sound is skewed 500 ms, then it goes to 1000 ms (8th minute), reaches 1500 ms in the middle (13th minute), then there's no refference (I can't pinpoint any sound to any action) but later skew is again close to 500 ms (21st minute). Last 4-5 to minutes seem perfectly aligned.

So I've decided to divide the film into 5-7 parts, realign sound in those parts with VirtualDub's Audio Skew Correction feature, combine those parts and see if everything is ok. 1000 ms is 1 s and with 5 or 7 parts this would mean that the skew would never exceed 250-300 ms (0.25-0.3 s). Using places in the film where sound clearly corresponds with the picture I can set those parts to be central parts thus skew will be equal to 0 whenever some sound is obviously associated with some action. The rest won't be so obvious and 250-300 ms of skew is not so easy to detect.

This is doing things the hard way, but since there seems to be no answer to this problem, I'm going to try to do this this way. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Since I dragged this forum into this, I'll post information about the release also here, not only on the SH2Fleet forum. Perhaps there are some submariners here too. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


CY.

Jan "Escar" Hytry
Out from the shadows for a longer time.Smbd lend me some sun block. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
http://republika.pl/escar/lf.jpg
My missions (http://republika.pl/escar/lomac.htm)
System specs (http://republika.pl/escar/specs.htm)

Escar
09-05-2004, 10:26 AM
I'm about to release my film. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I've managed to overcome the sound problem (by cutting the vid into small bits and recombining it after some sound shifting) and the whole thing looks pretty good uncompressed. But it's almost 29 GB uncompressed so I can't release without compressing it. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I compressed it with DivX, but I want to make sure that I did everything right, before release so that you don't waste people time and bandwidth on something that could've been done better. It's the first time I try such a thing. I've read a lot of stuff before trying, but nothing beats an advice from someone more experienced. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

This is all relevant information regarding the compressing process. Hope I did everything the right way. If no-one says it's bad and if I manage to finish the subtitles today, I'll probably release it tomarrow:


All recording, editing and compressing done with iuVCR and VirtualDub (latest version).

Recording data:
Native picture: VHS mini-tape, transferred via composite cable, PAL-D standard with interleave.
Grabbed picture: uncompressed YUV2, 768x576 pixels, interleaved.
Native sound: VHS mini-tape, transferred via chinch cable to SB Live! Value Line-in.
Grabbed sound: uncompressed 48kHz, 16 bit, stereo, 75% mixer setting (to get rid of some noise).

Grabbed file data:
Grabbed file size: 31,6 GB.
Grabbed film lenght: 25 minutes 33 seconds.
Grabbed file size after edition (sound correction&some cutting): 28,9 GB.
Grabbed film lenght after edition: 23 minutes 19 seconds.

Compression process data:
Picture filters:
- Smart Deinterlace - frame&field differencing, compare color channels, use cubic for interpolation, motion map denoising, motion threshold=20, scene change treshold=30,
- Smart Resize - 512x384, precise bicubic,
- null transform - cropping to 512x374 (cropping only, to remove VHS interference on the top and bottom of the picture),
- Smart Smoother HiQuality - diameter=9, threshold=30, amount=254, maintain diffweight=0, weighed average, weighed with difference, check gray scale.

Frame rate: no change (24.935 FPS), process all frames, inverse telecine=none.
Color depth: 24bit to 24 bit.
Compression: DivX 5.20 Codec, DivX Certified Profile=HighDefinition Profile, Bidirectional Encoding: Adaptive Single Consecutive, 512x374, FPS=25, encode performance=slow, average bitrate=1600, encoding with Multipass (two pasess, 1st and 2nd), Source preprocessing=light, Interlacing=progresive source, Scene change threshold= 50%, Keyframe interval= 150.

Audio interleaving: preload 500 ms, interleave audio every 250 frames.
Audio Compression: Lame MP3 encoder, 48kHz, 16 bit, stereo, 192 kbps CBR, 24KB/s.


Compressed file data:
Compression: Multipass, 1st&2nd pass, 1600 bitrate.
Compressed file size: 299 MB.
Compressed film lenght: 23 minutes 19 seconds.
Bad/Missed frames: 0 (checked with VirtualDub).


These were the settings I used. I hope that resolution vs. bitrate is ok (I'm not sure. :| ) and that the filters used were set for best image quality (Used default settings or even higher then default settings, hope that those settings are all ok.). If I missed something or made and error, please tell me and I'll recompress it ASAP.

If everything's ok, then I'll just finish the subtitles and zip everything for the release. I'll probably use BitTorrent, according to the advices I've received.

Looking forward to any advice before releasing.

Since I dragged this forum into this, it's only fair to post the link here too. Anyone sub-oriented, you're welcome to download when it's ready. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Cheers.

Jan "Escar" Hytry
Out from the shadows for a longer time.Smbd lend me some sun block. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
http://republika.pl/escar/lf.jpg
My missions (http://republika.pl/escar/lomac.htm)
System specs (http://republika.pl/escar/specs.htm)

Escar
09-06-2004, 02:26 PM
To all whom it may interest. I've released this film. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif You may find all relevant information here:

http://207.44.164.159/phpBB_subclub/viewtopic.php?t=12029

Cheers.

Jan "Escar" Hytry
Out from the shadows for a longer time.Smbd lend me some sun block. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
http://republika.pl/escar/lf.jpg
My missions (http://republika.pl/escar/lomac.htm)
System specs (http://republika.pl/escar/specs.htm)