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Bowman_61
12-09-2004, 03:16 PM
Would it be possible to implement limited 6DOF
so that you have up/down, left/right + zoom in/out.

Ok its not the whole deal, just a different way of controlling what we already have?

Bowman

PriK
12-09-2004, 03:36 PM
Probably, and it wouldn't take any cockpit work.

x__CRASH__x
12-09-2004, 03:37 PM
We have that. It's called Track IR.

PriK
12-09-2004, 03:57 PM
No we don't. It's called 6DOF with enough movement to glance around a strut or see a hidden compass or glance a bit up over the dash.

Try to keep up. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

oqvist
12-09-2004, 05:53 PM
TrackIR don´t allow zooming http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

TAGERT.
12-09-2004, 06:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by oqvist:
TrackIR don´t allow zooming http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Not true.. TrackIRV does allow zooming.. It is PF that dos not allow zooming via TrackIRV.. But CFS3 does allow zooming via TrackIRV..

I never thought I would live to see the day where MicroSofts team could do something that Oleg's team could not do.

BuzzU
12-09-2004, 07:12 PM
Use TrackIR for normal viewing. Look around cockpit frames with Shift-F1. Zoom in and out with Increase/Decrease FOV.

See? No reason to whine.

TAGERT.
12-09-2004, 07:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BuzzU:
Use TrackIR for normal viewing. Look around cockpit frames with Shift-F1. Zoom in and out with Increase/Decrease FOV.

See? No reason to whine. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Nice try.. but no sale.. Shift-F1 does not work the same for every aircraft.. On some it does expose the bogie behind the bar.. But on most it does not.. Because it is a move along the centerline.. To see around bars you have to be able to lean left and right.

See? Many reasons to whine.

BuzzU
12-09-2004, 07:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TAGERT.:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BuzzU:
Use TrackIR for normal viewing. Look around cockpit frames with Shift-F1. Zoom in and out with Increase/Decrease FOV.

See? No reason to whine. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Nice try.. but no sale.. Shift-F1 does not work the same for every aircraft.. On some it does expose the bogie behind the bar.. But on most it does not.. Because it is a move along the centerline.. To see around bars you have to be able to lean left and right.

See? Many reasons to whine. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How come I never lose a plane? You've got the stick in your hand. Move your plane to see..

It's all we have now. What do you suggest? Should we tar and feather Oleg?

TAGERT.
12-09-2004, 07:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BuzzU:
How come I never lose a plane? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You do.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BuzzU:
You've got the stick in your hand. Move your plane to see.. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Ah.. ok.. so let me see if I understand you correctly.. In real life the pilot would bank he whole aircraft left or right instead of moving he head a little left and right? Sorry.. but I find that hard to belive.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BuzzU:
It's all we have now. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Now.. and the only reaon given for not including it is because some of the cockpit art might look funny due to clipping.. lame exuse imho.. In that without 6DOF we have cackpit art that looks funny due to clipping NOW!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BuzzU:
What do you suggest? Should we tar and feather Oleg? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Leave your kinky sex dreams out of this topic please! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

BuzzU
12-09-2004, 07:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TAGERT.:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BuzzU:
How come I never lose a plane? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You do.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BuzzU:
You've got the stick in your hand. Move your plane to see.. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Ah.. ok.. so let me see if I understand you correctly.. In real life the pilot would bank he whole aircraft left or right instead of moving he head a little left and right? Sorry.. but I find that hard to belive.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BuzzU:
It's all we have now. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Now.. and the only reaon given for not including it is because some of the cockpit art might look funny due to clipping.. lame exuse imho.. In that without 6DOF we have cackpit art that looks funny due to clipping NOW!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BuzzU:
What do you suggest? Should we tar and feather Oleg? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Leave your kinky sex dreams out of this topic please! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I thought you liked them?


btw..You're not flying a real plane. You're playing a video game.

TAGERT.
12-09-2004, 07:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BuzzU:
I thought you liked them? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I do! I just hate it that I didnt think of that one first! Emmmm Tar!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BuzzU:
btw..You're not flying a real plane. You're playing a video game. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Thanks! And they said you were worthless! I knew you would be good for something!

BuzzU
12-09-2004, 07:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TAGERT.:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BuzzU:
I thought you liked them? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I do! I just hate it that I didnt think of that one first! Emmmm Tar!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BuzzU:
btw..You're not flying a real plane. You're playing a video game. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Thanks! And they said you were worthless! I knew you would be good for something! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you. Is my work done here now?

TAGERT.
12-09-2004, 07:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BuzzU:
Thank you. Is my work done here now? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Was done b4 you got here!

BuzzU
12-09-2004, 07:50 PM
Sore loser.

TAGERT.
12-09-2004, 07:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BuzzU:
Sore loser. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>LOL!

Recon_609IAP
12-09-2004, 07:58 PM
ok, now that the Buzz is done.

I like the idea of some middle ground - partial movement. It wouldn't take much, no extreme needed.

Slight lean left or right would be excellent start, understanding the limitation of the IL2 3D cockpit.

Buzz part of the progress of video games is the expansion of ideas - your comment reminds me of when i played the first flight simulator that just had line representing buildings. If we'd have said 'you want color? it's just a video game'... well, you got the point.

Don't be such a killjoy! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

TAGERT.
12-09-2004, 07:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Recon_609IAP:
ok, now that the Buzz is done.

I like the idea of some middle ground - partial movement. It wouldn't take much, no extreme needed.

Slight lean left or right would be excellent start, understanding the limitation of the IL2 3D cockpit. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Exactally! And from those pictures posted in the other thread.. a little movement would not cause any clipping issues.. And a little is all that is needed to look around most cockpit bars.

BuzzU
12-09-2004, 08:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TAGERT.:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Recon_609IAP:
ok, now that the Buzz is done.

I like the idea of some middle ground - partial movement. It wouldn't take much, no extreme needed.

Slight lean left or right would be excellent start, understanding the limitation of the IL2 3D cockpit. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Exactally! And from those pictures posted in the other thread.. a little movement would not cause any clipping issues.. And a little is all that is needed to look around most cockpit bars. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

To be honest I would like the extra movement too. However, Oleg has said it's not going to happen, and I accept that. I don't think 1000 more threads is going to change that. Do you?

TAGERT.
12-09-2004, 08:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BuzzU:
To be honest I would like the extra movement too. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Only a fool wouldnt like it

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BuzzU:
However, Oleg has said it's not going to happen, and I accept that. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>They said the same thing about the .50 cal and P47 roll rates and 109 dive speeds and etc..

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BuzzU:
I don't think 1000 more threads is going to change that. Do you? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I dont know if a 1000 more would.. But what I do know is that 0 threads would not.

GOOD NEWS! It really doesnt mater what Oleg does.. In that it sounds like a 3rd party person will just do it.. As was the case with CFS3. In light of that fact.. Actually kind of smart that Oleg does NOT do it.. Because it will just open him up to a bunch of whining from the non-trackir crowd that thinks the current trackir is a cheat.. Imagine how bad it would be if the 6DOF was added! They would probally slit thier wrists! Hmmmmm on that note.. Oleg really should reconsider doing it!

BuzzU
12-09-2004, 08:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TAGERT.:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BuzzU:
To be honest I would like the extra movement too. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Only a fool wouldnt like it

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BuzzU:
However, Oleg has said it's not going to happen, and I accept that. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>They said the same thing about the .50 cal and P47 roll rates and 109 dive speeds and etc..

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BuzzU:
I don't think 1000 more threads is going to change that. Do you? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I dont know if a 1000 more would.. But what I do know is that 0 threads would not.

GOOD NEWS! It really doesnt mater what Oleg does.. In that it sounds like a 3rd party person will just do it.. As was the case with CFS3. In light of that fact.. Actually kind of smart that Oleg does NOT do it.. Because it will just open him up to a bunch of whining from the non-trackir crowd that thinks the current trackir is a cheat.. Imagine how bad it would be if the 6DOF was added! They would probally slit thier wrists! Hmmmmm on that note.. Oleg really should reconsider doing it! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You like to really organize your quotes huh?

TAGERT.
12-09-2004, 08:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BuzzU:
You like to really organize your quotes huh? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>What can I say.. it's a gift!

widgeon
12-09-2004, 08:20 PM
A bump for the original suggestion to be considered.

Adding zoom function to the vector/trackir in Il-2/PF.
The point of view reference would not be changed, therefore the graphic anomalies of full vector expansion would not be introduced.

Widgeon

tHeBaLrOgRoCkS
12-09-2004, 08:24 PM
Your one of those guys that likes to do the """ thing with his fingers aint you Tagert?
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/tHeBaLrOgRoCkS/rick.jpg

TAGERT.
12-09-2004, 08:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tHeBaLrOgRoCkS:
Your one of those guys that likes to do the """ thing with his fingers aint you Tagert?
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/tHeBaLrOgRoCkS/rick.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>What can I say.. that is a gift too!

tHeBaLrOgRoCkS
12-09-2004, 08:56 PM
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOH comon man I put more effort into finding that picture than you did into that reply!!! That just sux0r0rz ......arrrfghgh wait a m1n17??!?! 1 f33l 4 ch4n93 c0m1n9 0n! 444rr9h!!!!11

c4n7 f19h7 17 n0000000000...........

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y44444444r9 1 4m b4ck n0085!!!1111!!!!!

T1mM0rZ pwn3d j000000 5uk4 mwu4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4


T1mM0rZ 00083r fl047y dr1^3r

x__CRASH__x
12-09-2004, 09:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tHeBaLrOgRoCkS:
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOH comon man I put more effort into finding that picture than you did into that reply!!! That just sux0r0rz ......arrrfghgh wait a m1n17??!?! 1 f33l 4 ch4n93 c0m1n9 0n! 444rr9h!!!!11

c4n7 f19h7 17 n0000000000...........

r111111111p!!!!11!!!!!!

y44444444r9 1 4m b4ck n0085!!!1111!!!!!

T1mM0rZ pwn3d j000000 5uk4 mwu4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4

T1mM0rZ 00083r fl047y dr1^3r <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

WTF is this? Is this l33t? Why even take the time to push the keys down? No one over the age of 13 understands it, and it makes you look like... well... 13!

pcpilot_MGG
12-09-2004, 09:23 PM
I think this is a valid discussion. If there is a way to improve the sim to make it even more awesome, that way should be explored. Having the 6DOF even partially implemented is a step in the right direction for this sim. I remember flying the MiG-3 and not being able to see the compass I beleive it was, that was directly behind the stick. In the wildcat in PF, one of the instruments down low on the left isnt readable when the guage needle is in the 11 oclock to about the 4 oclock position on the dial. Im sure other planes in the sim have similar problems. Then of course there is the concern about keeping your eye on your opponent in a fight. When I first heard of 6DOF, I realized something much needed was in the making. Even if some textures are torn a bit or even missing, in a 3D cockpit as I have heard one problem is, at least the sim is approaching a bit closer to more accurately reflecting sitting in a cockpit. I find that very cool and a big reason I fly computer sims. People always have the option of NOT using it if its implemented so no need for anyone to whine.

tHeBaLrOgRoCkS
12-09-2004, 09:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by x__CRASH__x:
WTF is this? Is this l33t? Why even take the time to push the keys down? No one over the age of 13 understands it, and it makes you look like... well... 13! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LMFAO !!!!ONEONEONEONE1111111

7h475 900d c0m1n9 fr0m j000 n008!!!!0n3on3

W4554 M4dd3r x---7r45h---x f34r3D 0f d4 T1mM0rz ?!?!ONEONEONE

0r Ju57 P33d 0rf c0z j00 41n7 45 900d 47 7yp1n9 w17h j00r f47 l77l3 f1n93r0rz!!!on3on3on311

M0^3 0^3r 9r3y b34rd 4nd w177n3z m3y3 pr3f3c710n!!!!!0n3on3on3!!!!

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif
T1mM0rz ju57 pwn3d j000!!!!

oh yeah and one btw
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

PriK
12-09-2004, 10:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TAGERT.:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BuzzU:
To be honest I would like the extra movement too. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Only a fool wouldnt like it

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BuzzU:
However, Oleg has said it's not going to happen, and I accept that. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>They said the same thing about the .50 cal and P47 roll rates and 109 dive speeds and etc..

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BuzzU:
I don't think 1000 more threads is going to change that. Do you? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I dont know if a 1000 more would.. But what I do know is that 0 threads would not.

GOOD NEWS! It really doesnt mater what Oleg does.. In that it sounds like a 3rd party person will just do it.. As was the case with CFS3. In light of that fact.. Actually kind of smart that Oleg does NOT do it.. Because it will just open him up to a bunch of whining from the non-trackir crowd that thinks the current trackir is a cheat.. Imagine how bad it would be if the 6DOF was added! They would probally slit thier wrists! Hmmmmm on that note.. Oleg really should reconsider doing it! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

CFS3 was implemented directly by NaturalPoint and I don't recall them needing or asking for Bill Gates permission. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Don't count on NP implementing it into PF because they are respecting Oleg's decision not to. The other methods would rely on 3rd party programs like TIR2Joy for mapping the movement axes to joystick movements. This porobably won't work for PF either.

One nice thing might be a keymapper built into the software (they are hoping to put this in for a future revision) that would allow us to at least map say, zoom-view to leaning forward or other axis triggers for anything else. Not 6DOF but it could free up a couple button assignments. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

actionhank1786
12-09-2004, 10:46 PM
yay! Another Track IR thread that i'm sure had good intention but has now dropped down to taking this dead horse and backing our cars over him many many times.
come on guys, oleg's said no, we all know his reasoning, why the hell are we still sitting here tossing this idea around? Hold out until Battle Of Britain.

TAGERT.
12-09-2004, 10:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PriK:
CFS3 was implemented directly by NaturalPoint and I don't recall them needing or asking for Bill Gates permission. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Ah, cool! so NP did it! That is even better than a 3rd party!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PriK:
Don't count on NP implementing it into PF because they are respecting Oleg's decision not to. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>What? Now Im confused.. I mean I could semi-understand both of Oleg's excuses/reason

1) Dont want to spend the time and money updating all the cockpits to Oleg's standard! In that with 6DOF it wouls make some of the cockpits look funny. But, I have a hard time with that excuse.. In that even with his high standard and NO 6DOF we have alot of cockpits that look funny due to clipping issues.. But I digress.

2) Dont want to spend time and money developing or modifying the code to support TrackIR Vector.

With that said.. What could Oleg's *decision* be no? Thus tying NP hand out of respect for Oleg? It is not costing Oleg anything if NP does the code.. And Oleg is allready able to sleep at night knowing that there are cockpits now with clipping issues.. Makes no sense.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PriK:
The other methods would rely on 3rd party programs like TIR2Joy for mapping the movement axes to joystick movements. This porobably won't work for PF either. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Well that blows!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PriK:
One nice thing might be a keymapper built into the software (they are hoping to put this in for a future revision) that would allow us to at least map say, zoom-view to leaning forward or other axis triggers for anything else. Not 6DOF but it could free up a couple button assignments. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>But it wouldnt zoom smoothly.. It would still be the discotinuity jump from one zoom to the next.. Very none imersive imho.

Well shoot.. Just when it started to make some sense.. Now Im back to square one.. Why would he stand in the way of a new feacture when it does not cost him a dime?

TAGERT.
12-09-2004, 10:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by actionhank1786:
come on guys, oleg's said no, we all know his reasoning, why the hell are we still sitting here tossing this idea around? Hold out until Battle Of Britain. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You know his reasoning? Please.. do tell! Before it was about moeny.. But now it looks like it wouldnt have cost him a dime and NP was going to do it all.. It can not be the quality of the 3D cockpits! Because we allready have alot of 3D cockpits that have clipping issues.

I just had a thought... Naaaaaaaah.. Hmmmmmm Well? How much does Oleg hate the Luftwhiners? In that this 6DOF ability to lean left and lean right would help alot of planes.. But, the ability to sit (lean) up in your seat would really.. Really.. REALLY help out the porked view of the Fw190! Imagine being able to sit up a little higher in the seat at will to track that bogie below the nose a bit beter than you can now...

Or does he hate the early P47 drivers? I mean imagine being able to look a little left and a little right to look around that GD bar right down the center of your gun sight!

Hmmmm.. Nah! Cant be that! There must be some other reason.. Cuz the two give so far just dont fly.

Fehler
12-10-2004, 04:48 AM
It's funny that you, of all people, ever use the word "Whiner" in a sentence directing a derragatory overtone for whatever reason. After 8 billion posts on the same subject, you certainly lend viable proof to the saying, "Takes one to know one."

The fact is, Oleg has explained, the best he could, why support of this feature is nearly impossible.

I also invite you to look at the post by Gibbage about how poorly the 3D model is missing on the example aircraft he posted. No one, remotely interested in a reasonably accurate graphic representation of these wonderful warbird cockpits, would deny that a lack of objects beyond the scope of the game's current depiction of visualizations are totally unacceptable.

The amount of work it would take to correct this for each and every type of aircraft in the game would probably take as many man-hours as the cockpits (Currently rendered) took to create in the first place. Again that is totally unacceptable if you look at it from the vantage point of a business (1C) that is trying to make money by promoting a product. It is certainly not even close to being cost effective for 1C.

In addition to this, 1C has other software that they have contractual obligations to fulfill; ie. BoB. An undertaking like you wish would probably put them completely out of business because the undertaking itself would require them to use assets currently allocated for compliance with those contractual obligations.

Thus, it is ridiculous to expect that your rantings could lend any persuasion to the issue.

In other words, give it a rest; please.

We would all love to see this added immersion in a flight sim of our liking, especially one as wonderful as the IL2 series. I am sure Oleg understands this, and I would be willing to bet (Given his track record) that he genuinly sorry he cannot support this feature. Unfortunately it is simply not a viable undertaking for all of the above posted reasons.

Lastly, objective people understand what can and cannot be changed in life. Furthermore, they understand that not all things in life are to their liking. Those type of people can clearly understand the difference. Are you an objective and intelligent person?

Recon_609IAP
12-10-2004, 05:43 AM
"To be honest I would like the extra movement too. However, Oleg has said it's not going to happen, and I accept that. I don't think 1000 more threads is going to change that. Do you?"

You assume all possible ideas and solutions have been put before Oleg?

Oleg said it wasn't going to happen, but did he ever consider limited movement?

It is amazing how many on the forum know the innermost thoughts of Oleg and just speak for him....

What is wrong with discussing ideas associated to a new technology? And again, why so many killjoys about this new technology?

Perhaps we've heard "it can't be done" enought times to know it can be done given a good solution, ie. muzzle flashes. Eventually Oleg found a way to do it, which he originally did not think about.

Let's stop making this a personal debate and instead think a bit outside of the box.

I fully support more engaged conversations on this topic - when you are the leader of the most popular flight sim, this will happen when new technology geared toward flight sims hit the market.

Again, why such killjoy?


"Lastly, objective people understand what can and cannot be changed in life. Furthermore, they understand that not all things in life are to their liking. Those type of people can clearly understand the difference. Are you an objective and intelligent person? "

Perhaps, but those that let their minds goto ideas outside of mainstream have come up with some of the most genius inventions ever. Intelligence would include that capability of one's mind, not just pure facts and numbers. Many said flight would be impossible, going to the moon was impossible, etc... had we left this to those that assumed it could not be otherwise...speaks for itself.

Truly there is wisdom in knowing when to accept and when not to, but I am not convinced that all the possibilities of this topic has been exhausted.

Bearcat99
12-10-2004, 06:10 AM
Implementing the cockpits and their working gauges would be a monumental task. How would they do it for one plane and not another? Can you imagine the uproar if say the PF planes were re done and FB planes were not? The 190 pilots alone would have an anurism. Just browse through this thread (http://www.netwings.org/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=list&forum=DCForumID43&conf=DCConfID1) on Netwings coutesy of Lexx to see how much detail goes into the making of these models... stuff we take for granted because we see it and it looks so simple (Like a 5 minute sequence of Shrek... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif). I would like to see improvements of TIR in FB3.0 but if Oleg says 6DoF wont beintroduced then I have to say "OK whatever you say........ whens the next patch?" and be done with it. It would be great. If someone else did the cockpits would they be up to Olegs standards? If a third party modeler or a group of them took on the task to do every cockpit for 6DoF in FB3.0 and they didnt work right... you know.. gauges innacurate or gaps in the rendering then of course Oleg would be the one getting reamed in here..... "Oleg I paid for a sim with XXX and it oisnt working right.. you ripped me off..yada yada yada......" As it is now FB3.0 is the most awesome WW2 sim on the market.... even limited 6DoF outside of the 3D rendering already drawn would be an enormous task. Looking at that thread I can appreciate what the modellers do and I for one will never complain about tyhat stuff again. its interesting to say the least.

raaaid
12-10-2004, 08:20 AM
a slight implementation of 6dof would be posible because with shift+f1 theres shaking of the head of decimeters

theres as much as double people who prefer 6dof even with graphic bugs than people who dont

it would cost nothing to ubi but they would earn more money and would be the top line simulator

after having bought 3 games to play 3.02bm we deserve support even if it takes one year

future of bob is endangered because people might start using other simulators that do implement 6dof and forget the il2 series

if they starting selling the game before being finished is explained by the fact they knew about 6dof, if the il2 series is the best considered why to improve it any more (well in two weeks pf goes behind cfs3, fs2004 and WWII online)

maybe oleg doesnt want it to be implemented for a third party because he doesnt want to give his code away

this is a combat sim, view is everything, not being able to look back the g2 is totally unrealistic, theres something missing? let the NP guys fix it

people wont wait 2 years for bob to use 6dof
for when bob comes out the online comunity will have gone elsewhere and people will have forgotten about bob

it just doesnt make sense an ultrarealistic cockpit if the cockpit view works in a totally unrealistic manner

what is worse having an invisible rudder which is unrealistic or not being able to look behind the headrest which is more unrealistic in fact if you hadnt told me what i was missing in those pictures i wouldnt have noticed

PriK
12-10-2004, 09:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by raaaid:
a slight implementation of 6dof would be posible because with shift+f1 theres shaking of the head of decimeters

theres as much as double people who prefer 6dof even with graphic bugs than people who dont

it would cost nothing to ubi but they would earn more money and would be the top line simulator

after having bought 3 games to play 3.02bm we deserve support even if it takes one year

future of bob is endangered because people might start using other simulators that do implement 6dof and forget the il2 series

if they starting selling the game before being finished is explained by the fact they knew about 6dof, if the il2 series is the best considered why to improve it any more (well in two weeks pf goes behind cfs3, fs2004 and WWII online)

maybe oleg doesnt want it to be implemented for a third party because he doesnt want to give his code away

this is a combat sim, view is everything, not being able to look back the g2 is totally unrealistic, theres something missing? let the NP guys fix it

people wont wait 2 years for bob to use 6dof
for when bob comes out the online comunity will have gone elsewhere and people will have forgotten about bob

it just doesnt make sense an ultrarealistic cockpit if the cockpit view works in a totally unrealistic manner

what is worse having an invisible rudder which is unrealistic or not being able to look behind the headrest which is more unrealistic in fact if you hadnt told me what i was missing in those pictures i wouldnt have noticed <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oleg wasn't made aware of 6DOF until fairly recently and the reason the cockpits weren't "finished" was due to polygon limitations to be able to make the cockpits look as good as they do.

I don't think IL2 series is endangered because of lack of 6DOF by any means but for a limited implementation (not redoing the cockpits) it can help boost it's popularity and the whole flight sim genre as well.

People won't wait 2 years just to use 6DOF because they won't have to. There will be a ton of games supported over the coming months even without 6DOF support in PF.

It would take minimal effort for OM to enable support for 6DOF, his concern is that it would take a monumental effort to redo the cockpits in a full implementation of it.

My contention is that a limited one would still be useful and immersive without doing anything to the cockpits. I think it's worth looking into but there are no conspiracies going on here and no whining on my part as long as the discussion stays on the topic and doesn't go off into accusations and innuendo.

TAGERT.
12-10-2004, 09:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
It's funny that you, of all people, ever use the word "Whiner" in a sentence directing a derragatory overtone for whatever reason. After 8 billion posts on the same subject, you certainly lend viable proof to the saying, "Takes one to know one." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>And it takes one to know one! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
The fact is, Oleg has explained, the best he could, why support of this feature is nearly impossible. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>No, not really.. In that his *reasoning* was about the time/money it would take to ensure that there were NO CLIPPING issues in the 3D cockpit art. He says that as if there are NO CLIPPING issues now! But there are.. And I dont see his quality contorl group rushing out to fix those! So it is really a moot excuse/reason.. That and everyone that has a CLUE as to what 6DOF is and can do said they would not mind a little more clipping.. Espically if it means you could see around that early P47 bar right down the center of your gunsight.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
I also invite you to look at the post by Gibbage about how poorly the 3D model is missing on the example aircraft he posted. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Got Link? Because thus far the images I have seen were not that bad imho! That and the ones I have seen could be FIXED by simply limiting the amount of lean left/right. In that you dont need to lean as far as they are currently doing in the CFS3 stuff. Just a small lean off the center line would do it.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
No one, remotely interested in a reasonably accurate graphic representation of these wonderful warbird cockpits, would deny that a lack of objects beyond the scope of the game's current depiction of visualizations are totally unacceptable. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>PLEASE DONT FORGET the OPTION IS YOURS! If you look at it and conclude that it is unaceptable than dont use it!! But dont think for one second that your conclusion is the same as everyones elses! As for clipping issues, as I allready pointed out, many of the guys who have a CLUE about what 6DOF is and can do are willing to live with MORE clipping issuse.. in that the good outweighs the bad! The ability to see the compus behind the gunsight would be one of those good things! The early P47 another.. The Fw190 one more.. and the list goes on.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
The amount of work it would take to correct this for each and every type of aircraft in the game would probably take as many man-hours as the cockpits (Currently rendered) took to create in the first place. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Which is why most of the people who have a clue about what 6DOF is and can do are not asking that these cockpits be redone.. That copuled with the fact that if you limit the lean left/right most of those clipping issues go away!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
Again that is totally unacceptable <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Agreed 100%! Which is why most of the people who have a clue about what 6DOF is and can do are not asking that these cockpits be redone.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
if you look at it from the vantage point of a business (1C) that is trying to make money by promoting a product. It is certainly not even close to being cost effective for 1C. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Agreed 100%! Which is why most of the people who have a clue about what 6DOF is and can do are not asking that these cockpits be redone.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
In addition to this, 1C has other software that they have contractual obligations to fulfill; ie. BoB. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>NEWS FLASH FOR YOU.. THIS JUST IN.. Implimenting the 6DOF would not cost IC one ruble! In that NP did/does all the work, as they did with CFS3.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
An undertaking like you wish would probably put them completely out of business because the undertaking itself would require them to use assets currently allocated for compliance with those contractual obligations. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Agreed 100%! Which is why most of the people who have a clue about what 6DOF is and can do are not asking that these cockpits be redone.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
Thus, it is ridiculous to expect that your rantings could lend any persuasion to the issue. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Im sorry.. Fehler.. Are you operating under the false impression that I give a rats a$$ about what you consider to be unacceptable and ridiculous? Please know that I dont!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
In other words, give it a rest; please. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>No.. Sorry.. This is the greatest flight sim made in the past 10 years.. 6DOF is the best thing to happen to flight sims sense the introduction of the joystick.. These two great things should be combined. I will not rest.. Until I get a reason that makes sense.. And thus far there have been none. It wouldnt cost 1C a thin dime to *allow* NP to impliment it into IL2-PF. In doing so it would greatly improve the game for some people and help NP in sales.. it is a win win with no down side imho.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
We would all love to see this added immersion in a flight sim of our liking, especially one as wonderful as the IL2 series. I am sure Oleg understands this, and I would be willing to bet (Given his track record) that he genuinly sorry he cannot support this feature. Unfortunately it is simply not a viable undertaking for all of the above posted reasons. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Disagree 100%

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
Lastly, objective people understand what can and cannot be changed in life. Furthermore, they understand that not all things in life are to their liking. Those type of people can clearly understand the difference. Are you an objective and intelligent person? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Im sorry.. Fehler.. Are you *still* operating under the false impression that I give a rats a$$ about what you consider to be unacceptable, ridiculous, objective and intelligent? Please know that I dont!

TAGERT.
12-10-2004, 09:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PriK:
Oleg wasn't made aware of 6DOF until fairly recently and the reason the cockpits weren't "finished" was due to polygon limitations to be able to make the cockpits look as good as they do.

I don't think IL2 series is endangered because of lack of 6DOF by any means but for a limited implementation (not redoing the cockpits) it can help boost it's popularity and the whole flight sim genre as well.

People won't wait 2 years just to use 6DOF because they won't have to. There will be a ton of games supported over the coming months even without 6DOF support in PF.

It would take minimal effort for OM to enable support for 6DOF, his concern is that it would take a monumental effort to redo the cockpits in a full implementation of it.

My contention is that a limited one would still be useful and immersive without doing anything to the cockpits. I think it's worth looking into but there are no conspiracies going on here and no whining on my part as long as the discussion stays on the topic and doesn't go off into accusations and innuendo. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Agreed 100%

SKULLS_Exec01
12-10-2004, 09:48 AM
Yep, limited movement would be great, I agree with it 110% and since no need to redo any of the cockpits to fix Oleg should not have a problem with it.
Also its something he could say his PF now supports, limited 6DOF and its a good selling point and will help his game last longer and sell more.
So its a win win for Oleg and us!!!

Scen
12-10-2004, 10:32 AM
I guess I don€t get it€¦

Why are some of you opposed to implementing 6DOF?

Every guy that opposes vector only brings up some of the issues Oleg mentioned which are basically cockpit rendering issues. So what? All those issues aside why wouldn€t you want this implemented is the bigger question.

I underlying tone seems be this weird and unwarranted negativity towards TIR users. In fact most the guys that don€t want it implemented don€t even use the TIR. If that€s the case what do you care? Is it really going to take away from the next game that€s due out a year or two from now? Please explain.

I really don€t understand why you wouldn€t want this implemented in your favorite sim regardless of the issues. Heck the lame A$$ *****ing that goes on in this forums over silly things like a bolt is missing here or the paint scratch isn€t realistic there and yet you don€t want something like 6DOF. I just don€t get it. It€s going to change the way we fly for the foreseeable future and I for one really want this technology to be embraced by the developers.

Please spare me the cheating angle€¦ If that€s the real issue why would I bother flying on cockpit only server in the first place? Why would I bother trying to get some sort of lame crack in the cockpit aim advantage on a realism server? Stupid waist of time.

I don€t get this community? Why is it so divided all the time? After see that video of crappy CFS3 you would think the entire community would love to see this integrated into our favorite sim.

Scen

Fennec_P
12-10-2004, 10:58 AM
you would think the entire community would love to see this integrated into our favorite sim.

I'm sure everyone would. But they have already read that it won't be implimented, and don't feel the need to push it.

Besides, more than fixing cockits, there may be other things to do. Mind that IL2 does not support any form of camera transform at all, short of existing camera shake and rotation. The "seat raise" function is actually just a seperate camera in the raised position, as is with gunsight and normal views. Who says it is even possible to truck the camera left/right, up/down in PF without major change? Currently there is no feature that does that.

CFS3 came already with camera movement functions. To impliment 6DOF would have been easy.

I'm sure they could make it in PF if they spent the time. But if Oleg says it is not time effective, and not worth taking away from the new sim, I am inclined to agree with him.

I personally look forward to getting TIR and using 6DOF in BoB. To use the hat switch for now is not reason for despair.

BuzzU
12-10-2004, 10:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Scen:
I guess I don€t get it€¦

Why are some of you opposed to implementing 6DOF?

Every guy that opposes vector only brings up some of the issues Oleg mentioned which are basically cockpit rendering issues. So what? All those issues aside why wouldn€t you want this implemented is the bigger question.

I underlying tone seems be this weird and unwarranted negativity towards TIR users. In fact most the guys that don€t want it implemented don€t even use the TIR. If that€s the case what do you care? Is it really going to take away from the next game that€s due out a year or two from now? Please explain.

I really don€t understand why you wouldn€t want this implemented in your favorite sim regardless of the issues. Heck the lame A$$ *****ing that goes on in this forums over silly things like a bolt is missing here or the paint scratch isn€t realistic there and yet you don€t want something like 6DOF. I just don€t get it. It€s going to change the way we fly for the foreseeable future and I for one really want this technology to be embraced by the developers.

Please spare me the cheating angle€¦ If that€s the real issue why would I bother flying on cockpit only server in the first place? Why would I bother trying to get some sort of lame crack in the cockpit aim advantage on a realism server? Stupid waist of time.

I don€t get this community? Why is it so divided all the time? After see that video of crappy CFS3 you would think the entire community would love to see this integrated into our favorite sim.

Scen <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think any of us are against it. I've just learned from a little kid, that if someone says "NO". I accept it. If Oleg wants to take the time to implement it, I€ll use it. I'm not going to stomp my feet, and scream "unfair", if I don't get my way though. Or, even worse. Try and tell us that PF will go in the trash if this feature isn't implemented, and everybody will turn to CF3. It's a ridiculous argument.

I'm sure the people from TrackIR have given Oleg all the details and possibilities he could implement. He doesn't need these kinds of threads to help him make up his mind.

Now, why don't you all stop whining, and let Oleg do what he thinks best. Go fly or something.

PriK
12-10-2004, 11:08 AM
Buzz, why do you only respond to the extreme whiners and totally disregard any of the constructive discussion? If this bothers you so much, telling the whiners to be quiet doesn't really add anything. Besides, that's what discussion here is supposed to be about.

This is UBI you have to disregard the whiners and the anti-whiner whiners just to get anything done.

Recon_609IAP
12-10-2004, 11:15 AM
Buzz, if this topic bothers you so much, why not just not respond to it any longer.

Oleg says that the cockpits aren't 100% able to support full 6DOF support.

This topic is asking if *LIMTED* 6DOF would be possible.

So, until Oleg shows up to refute *limited* 6DOF after he has research possibilities then we can lock the thread and throw away the key.

No one is stomping their feet, this is about exploring possibilities.

This is not whining -- how about you take your own advise and go fly or something

BuzzU
12-10-2004, 11:18 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PriK:
Buzz, why do you only respond to the extreme whiners and totally disregard any of the constructive discussion? If this bothers you so much, telling the whiners to be quiet doesn't really add anything. Besides, that's what discussion here is _supposed_ to be about.

This is UBI you have to disregard the whiners and the anti-whiner whiners just to get anything done. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My point is, what do you think you're getting done here? Do you think if every member of this forum agreed that Oleg should implement this, it will change anything? Don't you think Oleg really wants to have this feature, even if it's just a partial addition?

I ignore as whining as I can, but can only take so much before I speak up. The reason I speak to the whiners on this subject, is because those are the ones that are annoying.

BuzzU
12-10-2004, 11:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Recon_609IAP:
Buzz, if this topic bothers you so much, why not just not respond to it any longer.

Oleg says that the cockpits aren't 100% able to support full 6DOF support.

This topic is asking if *LIMTED* 6DOF would be possible.

So, until Oleg shows up to refute *limited* 6DOF after he has research possibilities then we can lock the thread and throw away the key.

No one is stomping their feet, this is about exploring possibilities.

This is not whining -- how about you take your own advise and go fly or something <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I haven't quoted you until now, so I guess my posts wern't directed at you.

You're right Oleg hasn't said partial mods couldn't be made yet. How about we wait until he does? You don't think TrackIr has mentioned all possibilities to him?

One thing I know is a fact. He's said no to the whole deal. So, i'm not puttings words in his mouth. Those are his words, and i'll go by that until he says something else.

I think the bottom line is, I take no better than some others.

SKULLS_Exec01
12-10-2004, 11:26 AM
S! HERE HERE Recon!!!
Well said...
All we ask is for Oleg to give a few seconds thought and see if its possiable, if not then fine we drop the whole thing.

Scen
12-10-2004, 11:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BuzzU:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Scen:
I guess I don€t get it€¦

Why are some of you opposed to implementing 6DOF?

Every guy that opposes vector only brings up some of the issues Oleg mentioned which are basically cockpit rendering issues. So what? All those issues aside why wouldn€t you want this implemented is the bigger question.

I underlying tone seems be this weird and unwarranted negativity towards TIR users. In fact most the guys that don€t want it implemented don€t even use the TIR. If that€s the case what do you care? Is it really going to take away from the next game that€s due out a year or two from now? Please explain.

I really don€t understand why you wouldn€t want this implemented in your favorite sim regardless of the issues. Heck the lame A$$ *****ing that goes on in this forums over silly things like a bolt is missing here or the paint scratch isn€t realistic there and yet you don€t want something like 6DOF. I just don€t get it. It€s going to change the way we fly for the foreseeable future and I for one really want this technology to be embraced by the developers.

Please spare me the cheating angle€¦ If that€s the real issue why would I bother flying on cockpit only server in the first place? Why would I bother trying to get some sort of lame crack in the cockpit aim advantage on a realism server? Stupid waist of time.

I don€t get this community? Why is it so divided all the time? After see that video of crappy CFS3 you would think the entire community would love to see this integrated into our favorite sim.

Scen <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think any of us are against it. I've just learned from a little kid, that if someone says "NO". I accept it. If Oleg wants to take the time to implement it, I€ll use it. I'm not going to stomp my feet, and scream "unfair", if I don't get my way though. Or, even worse. Try and tell us that PF will go in the trash if this feature isn't implemented, and everybody will turn to CF3. It's a ridiculous argument.

I'm sure the people from TrackIR have given Oleg all the details and possibilities he could implement. He doesn't need these kinds of threads to help him make up his mind.

Now, why don't you all stop whining, and let Oleg do what he thinks best. Go fly or something. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm really glad you think my opinion on the situation is just whining. Nice!

Just because it disagrees with your point of view you seem to consider it worthless. It's been made clear that Oleg does't want to support it but that doesn't mean there isn't middle ground.

The reason why I don't accept NO for an answer is the same could be said about muzzle flashes except they where finally fixed.

It's not about moaning and whining it's about the fact that it wouldn't take much to add 6DOF and NP is already willing to do it.

What do you care anyway? Does it actually take away from you somehow? Or are you just defending Oleg and company for some strange reason?

I can understand Oleg's decision it doesn't mean it should be completly dropped from discussion on the forums.

Scendore

BuzzU
12-10-2004, 11:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Scen:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BuzzU:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Scen:
I guess I don€t get it€¦

Why are some of you opposed to implementing 6DOF?

Every guy that opposes vector only brings up some of the issues Oleg mentioned which are basically cockpit rendering issues. So what? All those issues aside why wouldn€t you want this implemented is the bigger question.

I underlying tone seems be this weird and unwarranted negativity towards TIR users. In fact most the guys that don€t want it implemented don€t even use the TIR. If that€s the case what do you care? Is it really going to take away from the next game that€s due out a year or two from now? Please explain.

I really don€t understand why you wouldn€t want this implemented in your favorite sim regardless of the issues. Heck the lame A$$ *****ing that goes on in this forums over silly things like a bolt is missing here or the paint scratch isn€t realistic there and yet you don€t want something like 6DOF. I just don€t get it. It€s going to change the way we fly for the foreseeable future and I for one really want this technology to be embraced by the developers.

Please spare me the cheating angle€¦ If that€s the real issue why would I bother flying on cockpit only server in the first place? Why would I bother trying to get some sort of lame crack in the cockpit aim advantage on a realism server? Stupid waist of time.

I don€t get this community? Why is it so divided all the time? After see that video of crappy CFS3 you would think the entire community would love to see this integrated into our favorite sim.

Scen <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think any of us are against it. I've just learned from a little kid, that if someone says "NO". I accept it. If Oleg wants to take the time to implement it, I€ll use it. I'm not going to stomp my feet, and scream "unfair", if I don't get my way though. Or, even worse. Try and tell us that PF will go in the trash if this feature isn't implemented, and everybody will turn to CF3. It's a ridiculous argument.

I'm sure the people from TrackIR have given Oleg all the details and possibilities he could implement. He doesn't need these kinds of threads to help him make up his mind.

Now, why don't you all stop whining, and let Oleg do what he thinks best. Go fly or something. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm really glad you think my opinion on the situation is just whining. Nice!

Just because it disagrees with your point of view you seem to consider it worthless. It's been made clear that Oleg does't want to support it but that doesn't mean there isn't middle ground.

The reason why I don't accept NO for an answer is the same could be said about muzzle flashes except they where finally fixed.

It's not about moaning and whining it's about the fact that it wouldn't take much to add 6DOF and NP is already willing to do it.

What do you care anyway? Does it actually take away from you somehow? Or are you just defending Oleg and company for some strange reason?

I can understand Oleg's decision it doesn't mean it should be completly dropped from discussion on the forums.

Scendore <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's annoying. That's enough reason for me. I'm sure Oleg doesn't need you to tell him his options. If he's going to do it, he'll do it. Here's a thought for you. Wait and see.

Charlie_52ndVFW
12-10-2004, 11:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BuzzU:

btw..You're not flying a real plane. You're playing a video game. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So then tell me what the big deal is with implimenting 6DOF. If it is just a video game then who freaking cares?

BuzzU
12-10-2004, 11:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Charlie_52ndVFW:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BuzzU:

btw..You're not flying a real plane. You're playing a video game. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So then tell me what the big deal is with implimenting 6DOF. If it is just a video game then who freaking cares? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It should be obvious to you. Oleg.

Scen
12-10-2004, 12:01 PM
[/QUOTE] It's annoying. That's enough reason for me. I'm sure Oleg doesn't need you to tell him his options. If he's going to do it, he'll do it. Here's a thought for you. Wait and see.[/QUOTE]

It's really annoying that you don't want it implemented.

Same thought goes for you... Maybe you should just wait and see.

Bottom line is 6DOF is here so we will see what happens.

Scendore

Scen
12-10-2004, 12:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BuzzU:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Charlie_52ndVFW:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BuzzU:

btw..You're not flying a real plane. You're playing a video game. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So then tell me what the big deal is with implimenting 6DOF. If it is just a video game then who freaking cares? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It should be obvious to you. Oleg. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I didn't know you spoke for Oleg. Wow how did ya get that job?

Scendore

BuzzU
12-10-2004, 12:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Scen:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BuzzU:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Charlie_52ndVFW:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BuzzU:

btw..You're not flying a real plane. You're playing a video game. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So then tell me what the big deal is with implimenting 6DOF. If it is just a video game then who freaking cares? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It should be obvious to you. Oleg. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I didn't know you spoke for Oleg. Wow how did ya get that job?

Scendore <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You debate like a child. You honestly don't think Oleg cares about his product?


btw..Where did I say I didn't want it implemented? I just upgraded from TrackIR2 to TrackIR3, so what do you think?
I'll say it again for you. I wait better than you.

Scen
12-10-2004, 01:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BuzzU:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Scen:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BuzzU:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Charlie_52ndVFW:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BuzzU:

btw..You're not flying a real plane. You're playing a video game. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So then tell me what the big deal is with implimenting 6DOF. If it is just a video game then who freaking cares? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It should be obvious to you. Oleg. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I didn't know you spoke for Oleg. Wow how did ya get that job?

Scendore <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You debate like a child. You honestly don't think Oleg cares about his product?


btw..Where did I say I didn't want it implemented? I just upgraded from TrackIR2 to TrackIR3, so what do you think?
I'll say it again for you. I wait better than you. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I argue like a child?

"I wait better than you" What?

Okay it's obvious that I frustrate you for some reason. I haven't made any attempt at calling you names or being personal in my statments. I have however said your arguments are lame. I attack only your posts not you.

I suggest you take a different route.

The only reason why I've been quoting you in my posts is I truely don't understand your motivation.

You say you want to see 6DOF and you bought a TIR3 but your arguments don't suggest that at all.

Scendore

BuzzU
12-10-2004, 01:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Scen:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BuzzU:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Scen:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BuzzU:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Charlie_52ndVFW:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BuzzU:

btw..You're not flying a real plane. You're playing a video game. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So then tell me what the big deal is with implimenting 6DOF. If it is just a video game then who freaking cares? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It should be obvious to you. Oleg. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I didn't know you spoke for Oleg. Wow how did ya get that job?

Scendore <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You debate like a child. You honestly don't think Oleg cares about his product?


btw..Where did I say I didn't want it implemented? I just upgraded from TrackIR2 to TrackIR3, so what do you think?
I'll say it again for you. I wait better than you. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I argue like a child?

"I wait better than you" What?

Okay it's obvious that I frustrate you for some reason. I haven't made any attempt at calling you names or being personal in my statments. I have however said your arguments are lame. I attack only your posts not you.

I suggest you take a different route.

The only reason why I've been quoting you in my posts is I truely don't understand your motivation.

You say you want to see 6DOF and you bought a TIR3 but your arguments don't suggest that at all.

Scendore <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I get that way when you start throwing sarcasm at me. My motive? Listening to the constant whining for three years on this forum. I let 99.9% of go by without saying anything. I decided to speak up on this one. To bad for you huh?

I bought TrackIR3 for it's better tracking. If Oleg decides to give us something extra. Good, i'll be set up for it. Meanwhile i'll enjoy what I have.

Scen
12-10-2004, 01:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BuzzU:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Scen:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BuzzU:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Scen:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BuzzU:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Charlie_52ndVFW:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BuzzU:

btw..You're not flying a real plane. You're playing a video game. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So then tell me what the big deal is with implimenting 6DOF. If it is just a video game then who freaking cares? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It should be obvious to you. Oleg. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I didn't know you spoke for Oleg. Wow how did ya get that job?

Scendore <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You debate like a child. You honestly don't think Oleg cares about his product?


btw..Where did I say I didn't want it implemented? I just upgraded from TrackIR2 to TrackIR3, so what do you think?
I'll say it again for you. I wait better than you. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I argue like a child?

"I wait better than you" What?

Okay it's obvious that I frustrate you for some reason. I haven't made any attempt at calling you names or being personal in my statments. I have however said your arguments are lame. I attack only your posts not you.

I suggest you take a different route.

The only reason why I've been quoting you in my posts is I truely don't understand your motivation.

You say you want to see 6DOF and you bought a TIR3 but your arguments don't suggest that at all.

Scendore <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I get that way when you start throwing sarcasm at me. My motive? Listening to the constant whining for three years on this forum. I let 99.9% of go by without saying anything. I decided to speak up on this one. To bad for you huh?

I bought TrackIR3 for it's better tracking. If Oleg decides to give us something extra. Good, i'll be set up for it. Meanwhile i'll enjoy what I have. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fantastic just enjoy what you have.

Meanwhile I would like to see 6DOF implemented in my favorite WWII sim.

BTW you having almost 6000 posts I doubt you stay quiet about anything.

Scendore

Scen
12-10-2004, 01:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BuzzU:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PriK:
Buzz, why do you only respond to the extreme whiners and totally disregard any of the constructive discussion? If this bothers you so much, telling the whiners to be quiet doesn't really add anything. Besides, that's what discussion here is _supposed_ to be about.

This is UBI you have to disregard the whiners and the anti-whiner whiners just to get anything done. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My point is, what do you think you're getting done here? Do you think if every member of this forum agreed that Oleg should implement this, it will change anything? Don't you think Oleg really wants to have this feature, even if it's just a partial addition?

I ignore as whining as I can, but can only take so much before I speak up. The reason I speak to the whiners on this subject, is because those are the ones that are annoying. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually yes if everyone did want this feature I'm sure Oleg would consider it.

Remember he did change quite a few things based upon user input. 50 cal dispersion, Muzzle Flashes need I say more?

BuzzU
12-10-2004, 01:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Scen:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BuzzU:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Scen:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BuzzU:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Scen:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BuzzU:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Charlie_52ndVFW:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BuzzU:

btw..You're not flying a real plane. You're playing a video game. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So then tell me what the big deal is with implimenting 6DOF. If it is just a video game then who freaking cares? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It should be obvious to you. Oleg. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I didn't know you spoke for Oleg. Wow how did ya get that job?

Scendore <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You debate like a child. You honestly don't think Oleg cares about his product?


btw..Where did I say I didn't want it implemented? I just upgraded from TrackIR2 to TrackIR3, so what do you think?
I'll say it again for you. I wait better than you. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I argue like a child?

"I wait better than you" What?

Okay it's obvious that I frustrate you for some reason. I haven't made any attempt at calling you names or being personal in my statments. I have however said your arguments are lame. I attack only your posts not you.

I suggest you take a different route.

The only reason why I've been quoting you in my posts is I truely don't understand your motivation.

You say you want to see 6DOF and you bought a TIR3 but your arguments don't suggest that at all.

Scendore <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I get that way when you start throwing sarcasm at me. My motive? Listening to the constant whining for three years on this forum. I let 99.9% of go by without saying anything. I decided to speak up on this one. To bad for you huh?

I bought TrackIR3 for it's better tracking. If Oleg decides to give us something extra. Good, i'll be set up for it. Meanwhile i'll enjoy what I have. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fantastic just enjoy what you have.

Meanwhile I would like to see 6DOF implemented in my favorite WWII sim.

BTW you having almost 6000 posts I doubt you stay quiet about anything.

Scendore <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I got an award for being helpful. That took a lot of posts. I also play around a lot with my friends.

btw..I lost 5000 post when they changed the software. I sure can post huh? I probably haven't made 100 posts in the last year though.

As a parting thought. If we ever get 6DOF, i'll get it the same time as you. Thanks for getting Oleg to see your side of it.

Scen
12-10-2004, 02:13 PM
I got an award for being helpful. That took a lot of posts. I also play around a lot with my friends.

btw..I lost 5000 post when they changed the software. I sure can post huh? I probably haven't made 100 posts in the last year though.

As a parting thought. If we ever get 6DOF, i'll get it the same time as you. Thanks for getting Oleg to see your side of it.


LOL yeah I'm sure and you're right you will get it the same time I do.

Scendore

Fehler
12-12-2004, 01:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TAGERT.:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
Lastly, objective people understand what can and cannot be changed in life. Furthermore, they understand that not all things in life are to their liking. Those type of people can clearly understand the difference. Are you an objective and intelligent person? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Im sorry.. Fehler.. Are you *still* operating under the false impression that I give a rats a$$ about what you consider to be unacceptable, ridiculous, objective and intelligent? Please know that I dont! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, thanks for clarification.. I now know you are neither objective, nor intelligent. OK, go hold your breath and stomp your feet some more. It is at least, entertaining. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

TAGERT.
12-12-2004, 01:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
Well, thanks for clarification.. I now know you are neither objective, nor intelligent. OK, go hold your breath and stomp your feet some more. It is at least, entertaining. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You Go Girl! Now how about the rest?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
It's funny that you, of all people, ever use the word "Whiner" in a sentence directing a derragatory overtone for whatever reason. After 8 billion posts on the same subject, you certainly lend viable proof to the saying, "Takes one to know one." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>And it takes one to know one! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
The fact is, Oleg has explained, the best he could, why support of this feature is nearly impossible. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>No, not really.. In that his *reasoning* was about the time/money it would take to ensure that there were NO CLIPPING issues in the 3D cockpit art. He says that as if there are NO CLIPPING issues now! But there are.. And I dont see his quality contorl group rushing out to fix those! So it is really a moot excuse/reason.. That and everyone that has a CLUE as to what 6DOF is and can do said they would not mind a little more clipping.. Espically if it means you could see around that early P47 bar right down the center of your gunsight.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
I also invite you to look at the post by Gibbage about how poorly the 3D model is missing on the example aircraft he posted. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Got Link? Because thus far the images I have seen were not that bad imho! That and the ones I have seen could be FIXED by simply limiting the amount of lean left/right. In that you dont need to lean as far as they are currently doing in the CFS3 stuff. Just a small lean off the center line would do it.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
No one, remotely interested in a reasonably accurate graphic representation of these wonderful warbird cockpits, would deny that a lack of objects beyond the scope of the game's current depiction of visualizations are totally unacceptable. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>PLEASE DONT FORGET the OPTION IS YOURS! If you look at it and conclude that it is unaceptable than dont use it!! But dont think for one second that your conclusion is the same as everyones elses! As for clipping issues, as I allready pointed out, many of the guys who have a CLUE about what 6DOF is and can do are willing to live with MORE clipping issuse.. in that the good outweighs the bad! The ability to see the compus behind the gunsight would be one of those good things! The early P47 another.. The Fw190 one more.. and the list goes on.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
The amount of work it would take to correct this for each and every type of aircraft in the game would probably take as many man-hours as the cockpits (Currently rendered) took to create in the first place. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Which is why most of the people who have a clue about what 6DOF is and can do are not asking that these cockpits be redone.. That copuled with the fact that if you limit the lean left/right most of those clipping issues go away!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
Again that is totally unacceptable <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Agreed 100%! Which is why most of the people who have a clue about what 6DOF is and can do are not asking that these cockpits be redone.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
if you look at it from the vantage point of a business (1C) that is trying to make money by promoting a product. It is certainly not even close to being cost effective for 1C. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Agreed 100%! Which is why most of the people who have a clue about what 6DOF is and can do are not asking that these cockpits be redone.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
In addition to this, 1C has other software that they have contractual obligations to fulfill; ie. BoB. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>NEWS FLASH FOR YOU.. THIS JUST IN.. Implimenting the 6DOF would not cost IC one ruble! In that NP did/does all the work, as they did with CFS3.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
An undertaking like you wish would probably put them completely out of business because the undertaking itself would require them to use assets currently allocated for compliance with those contractual obligations. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Agreed 100%! Which is why most of the people who have a clue about what 6DOF is and can do are not asking that these cockpits be redone.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
Thus, it is ridiculous to expect that your rantings could lend any persuasion to the issue. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Im sorry.. Fehler.. Are you operating under the false impression that I give a rats a$$ about what you consider to be unacceptable and ridiculous? Please know that I dont!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
In other words, give it a rest; please. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>No.. Sorry.. This is the greatest flight sim made in the past 10 years.. 6DOF is the best thing to happen to flight sims sense the introduction of the joystick.. These two great things should be combined. I will not rest.. Until I get a reason that makes sense.. And thus far there have been none. It wouldnt cost 1C a thin dime to *allow* NP to impliment it into IL2-PF. In doing so it would greatly improve the game for some people and help NP in sales.. it is a win win with no down side imho.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
We would all love to see this added immersion in a flight sim of our liking, especially one as wonderful as the IL2 series. I am sure Oleg understands this, and I would be willing to bet (Given his track record) that he genuinly sorry he cannot support this feature. Unfortunately it is simply not a viable undertaking for all of the above posted reasons. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Disagree 100%

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
Lastly, objective people understand what can and cannot be changed in life. Furthermore, they understand that not all things in life are to their liking. Those type of people can clearly understand the difference. Are you an objective and intelligent person? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Im sorry.. Fehler.. Are you *still* operating under the false impression that I give a rats a$$ about what you consider to be unacceptable, ridiculous, objective and intelligent? Please know that I dont!