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Frequent_Flyer
09-22-2008, 10:37 PM
I often wondered if Erich Hartmanns claims would stand up to this kind of scrutiny. I know the Luftwaffe did not use " gun cameras" to the extent the US did. How many if any of his claims were verified with camera's?


http://www.j-aircraft.com/research/rdunn/anabuki/anabuki.htm

Frequent_Flyer
09-22-2008, 10:37 PM
I often wondered if Erich Hartmanns claims would stand up to this kind of scrutiny. I know the Luftwaffe did not use " gun cameras" to the extent the US did. How many if any of his claims were verified with camera's?


http://www.j-aircraft.com/research/rdunn/anabuki/anabuki.htm

Buzzsaw-
09-22-2008, 11:03 PM
Salute

All sides overclaimed during the war, although the Japanese, Soviets and Italians were the worst offenders. There has been some suggestion that the Japanese overclaimed in the area of 4-1.

Interestingly enough, when checking the claims of German or Western Allied Aces, they usually stand up pretty well, better than the claims of pilots who were not so successful.

Claims on the East Front are very difficult to ascertain, as Soviet records are not that clear.

The fighter pilot who is commonly considered to have the most raw talent, by other Luftwaffe experten, is Hans Joachim M****ille who claimed some 158 Allied aircraft, all Western Allied. (although he obviously didn't score as many victories as Hartmann) His claims can be checked against known Allied losses.

(please excuse all the asterisks in Ma.rseilles name, the idiotic server here doesn't like the word ar.se)

M****ille's most famous day was on September 1st 1942, when he claimed 17 kills.

Here is a detailed analysis of one of the several combats which M****ille was involved in that day:

Between 17:30 and 18:00 hours of that day, the Ju-88's of III/KG77, as well as a few from LG-1 flew a mission to attack British ground troops in the El Alamein area.

The Ju's were assigned escorting 109's. I/JG27 was assigned close escort, and II/JG27 as loose escort. III/JG27 was sent on a Frei-Jagd ahead of the two other Gruppes.

For their part, the RAF scrambled 3 Squadrons to intercept. Spitfire V's of No. 145 Squadron, Hurricane II's of No 33 Squadron, and Hurricane II's of No. 213 Squadron.

The aircraft of No. 33, and No. 145 Squadron encountered the 109's of III/JG27, an inconclusive combat developed, II/JG27 entered the fray, and eventually all aircraft dispersed with no losses on any side.

The Ju88's, with I/JG27 escorting, continued on. There were eleven 109 pilots present from I/JG27, including M****ille, Lt. H.A. Stahlschmidt, Lt. Lieres and Obfw. Steinhausen, all four were high scoring Aces.

On an interception course, were 9 pilots of No. 213 Squadron. These were split into three sections, two high cover with 6 pilots, those being F.L. Waite, (British) F.O. Wollaston and Potter, (both Australian) F.O. Avis, (a RCAF American) Flt Sgt Ross, (a Canadian) and Sgt Garrod. (British) The low section had 3 pilots, those being F.L. Green, (British) and F.O.'s Houle and Steele. (both Canadians) This RAF Squadron was still operating with the "Vic" formation of 3 pilots per section.

The six pilots of the No. 213 Squadron high section were attacked by the eleven pilots of I/JG27, the three No 213 Squadron pilots of the low section were able to attack the Ju88's of III/KG77 unmolested, and forced them to jettison their bombs and abort the attack.

German Claims

The following claims were posted by the Germans:

M****ille: 5 aircraft shot down, all accepted, victories number 117 to 121.

Stahlschmidt: 2 aircraft shot down, all accepted, victories number 49 and 50.

Lieres: 1 aircraft shot down, accepted, 18th victory.

Steinhausen: 1 aircraft shot down, accepted, 37th victory.

Total claims 9 aircraft shot down.


British Losses


No 213 Squadron admitted the following losses:

Wollaston: Killed

Potter: Killed

Avis: Crashlanded, aircraft destroyed.

Ross: Crashlanded, aircraft destroyed.

Garrod: Bailed out, aircraft destroyed.


In addition, a single Photo Recon Hurricane of No. 208 Squadron which unfortunately found itself in the wrong place, was also lost. Pilot survived. This plane was likely shot down by Lieres, since he specifies encountering a lone Hurricane away from the main combat.

From the above, we can see that excluding Lieres victory over the Photo Recon Hurricane, the remaining Germans claimed 8 victories over 5 actual losses. That is an overclaim of 1.6 to 1.

As to who actually shot down aircraft and who did not, is impossible to determine.

In combat, confusion is the norm, and it is likely that the various pilots took shots at the same aircraft and probably quite honestly thought they had been responsible for downing it.


How about the British side?


British Claims:

F.L. Waite: 1 Ju-88 destroyed, accepted.

F.O. Houle: 1 Ju-88 destroyed, accepted. (this victory was confirmed by several sources and is the most solid)

F.Sgt. Avis: 1 Ju-88 destroyed, accepted. (this claim was most questionable, since pilot was a rookie)

F.L. Steele: 1 Ju-88 damaged, accepted.


German Losses:


Obfw Moritz's Ju-88 32+KR of III/KG77 was shot down.

In addition, members of III/KG77 reported seeing another Ju-88 crew bailing out, although the records for LG-1 cannot be found to confirm this loss.

In addition several other Ju-88's of III/KG77 landed with battle damage.


So we see that there was an overclaim on the part of the British of at least 1.5 to 1.

Again, I doubt that the RAF pilots were deliberately overclaiming, it is likely once again, that in the confusion, several made attacks on the same plane, and seeing it crash, both claimed.


I have included this example to show a bit of the reality of combat and claiming. There are no messages appearing in print in front of a real pilot saying "Enemy Aircraft Destroyed", or "So in So, shot down So in So". Imagine FB without those little text announcements. There would be a lot of confusion and overclaiming too.

The fact is, there was overclaiming by all sides during the war. Some were worse than others, and some were bad at certain times, and not so bad at others. Very often sides which were claiming over enemy territory would overclaim more. However, it was not nessesarily the case, especially when as for example with the USAAF, they had guncams.

We know the Germans heavily overclaimed during the Battle of Britain. We also know the British heavily overclaimed during the 'KanalKampf', or the war over the channel in '41/'42. We also know the Soviets heavily overclaimed during '41/'42, and their average overclaim was at least 4-1. Japanese claims were also very suspect, likely being up in the area of 4-1. Italian were around 3-1.

For the Germans, British and Americans, the overclaim seems to be between 1.5 and 2 to 1.

Fehler
09-22-2008, 11:09 PM
It would have been much easier if they only recorded a kill when they got the "Enemy Aircraft Destroyed" message... lol

Gumtree
09-22-2008, 11:39 PM
There is a very detailed book on the RAAF(and Desert Air force) in the western desert called "Desert Warriors".

The writer devotes a fair amount of time to the topic of over claiming by pilots, he takes the example of the air battle where M****illes claimed I believe 5 or 6 in a few minutes. He dissects the claims made by the Germans in total on that day which from memory come to 21.

He then compares them to the total losses shown by the Desert air force (239 wing who were the main opponents of the Germans that day) which adds up to 8 planes, including a Hurricane that was downed away from the air battle that the claims of 21 came from.

The out come of this claim by M****illes and co means that from the confirmed 8 losses, we have the Germans counting 21 to the totals of the individual pilots.

My own thoughts are that the propaganda machines made heroes of its own sides Pilots and that being the case, it lead to both sides over stating in the same cause of raising moral both at home and at the front.

I remember reading a case of a well respected pilot who when he landed claimed 3 enemy kills yet his ground crew could see he had not fired his guns!!

I am sure you will find people here who will argue this way and that, but the case of M****illes and his 6 planes in 5 minutes or what ever it was was taken apart in the book Desert Warriors by Russell Brown. In my opinion he gives a very strong case.

M_Gunz
09-22-2008, 11:49 PM
Do I have this right?

The British claim 4 Ju-88's and only 1 is confirmed to have been lost equals "at least" 1.5 to 1?

Looks more 4 to 1 to me. What part did I miss? Do landed damaged count towards claims?

Buzzsaw-
09-23-2008, 12:42 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
Do I have this right?

The British claim 4 Ju-88's and only 1 is confirmed to have been lost equals "at least" 1.5 to 1?

Looks more 4 to 1 to me. What part did I miss? Do landed damaged count towards claims? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, you missed the part where I noted that 3 Ju-88's were claimed destroyed, and one damaged. (not 4 destroyed) You also missed the part when I mentioned one III/KG77 Ju-88 reported seeing the crew of another, non-KG77 Ju-88 bailing out. Since LG-1 had the only other participating Ju-88's in the mission, it must have been one of their aircraft. Unfortunately, due to the fact LG-1's records are spotty, it can't be confirmed through those. But it is clear that a second Ju-88 went down.

Another anomaly re. German loss records. Because of the German method of recording aircraft losses, it is possible that some of the other battle damaged Ju-88's might have been written off later but would not have been recorded as a loss, due to the fact that while crew wounded or killed, and aircraft totally destroyed or missing were noted on the day, non-total losses, or write-offs, were noted monthly as part of an administrative report. As well, written-off aircraft were often not noted as a loss in a given month if the non-flying hulks could be used as spare parts. Sometimes a hulk would be used for several months before being counted as a loss. All this makes confirming Allied claims difficult.

Buzzsaw-
09-23-2008, 01:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fehler:
It would have been much easier if they only recorded a kill when they got the "Enemy Aircraft Destroyed" message... lol </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You can actually get rid of those messages in IL-2.

Would be funny to do that on the public servers, and see all the yelling and screaming which would go on as different people in a furball claimed a kill as their own... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Erkki_M
09-23-2008, 01:08 AM
Also, the server may switch off the kill reports (only xxx was killed are shown) - anyone getting "ea destroyed" -message cant be sure if it was a real kill or if he made it to the airfield, unless of course he saw his victim crash/bail/lose tail/wing etc.

M_Gunz
09-23-2008, 01:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Buzzsaw-:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fehler:
It would have been much easier if they only recorded a kill when they got the "Enemy Aircraft Destroyed" message... lol </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You can actually get rid of those messages in IL-2.

Would be funny to do that on the public servers, and see all the yelling and screaming which would go on as different people in a furball claimed a kill as their own... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hyperlobby would have to get a debrief room where guncams can be shown to make claims from
then each side can fess up or the log can tell how many of what were lost on chat.

P.FunkAdelic
09-23-2008, 02:04 AM
As a noob this is a silly question but if you get that message does that mean you killed the target or just did damage to him?

I just ask because whenever I suspect I've received a kill I never check before the server ends or I am trying to escape to safety.

dgk196
09-23-2008, 02:37 AM
Interesting........

I will find it, if absolutely necessary......

One fine day, E. Hartman claimed a 'flight' of IL's downed without firing a shot (almost) from his guns!

How? Well, the short version is that he came across them with his wing man (i.e. 'the witness').

He made a 'pass' firing at them, with not much of a 'damage' effect.

But, the 'leader' did a 'split S' maneuver to avoid fire. Hartman took mental note and did 'it' again (without firing), with the same reaction by the Russians. The whole 'flight' did the same thing as the 'leader'.

Well,every time they did this, altitude was lost. So, Hartman just kept making the pass without firing his guns, and the Russians did the split-s maneuver.

Eventually, they were at a very low altitude, one more pass resulted in another defensive split-s........ the Russian 'flight' went into the ground near vertically, every last one of them...... with virtually no shots fired by Hartman!

The rules of the 'road', at the time, was anything you did that caused the destruction of an enemy ac was considered a 'kill'........

Dennis

M_Gunz
09-23-2008, 02:55 AM
Maneuver kill -- flew him to death. Most easy to do in mountainous terrain on or offline.

But -- was it confirmed against known losses?

Add: would you get credit? Doesn't last one to put a shot in get the credit?

dgk196
09-23-2008, 03:42 AM
Like I said, it was the rules of the 'road' at the time......

Yes, he was credited with the 'kills'........
as I remember on strength of the statements by his wing man!

Where they 'kills'? I am not the deciding 'authority' on this subject. The point that I was trying to make was that you can't judge the decisions of the past by today's standards!

Did your actions result in the ac being destroyed and not returning to 'fight another day'? By 'their' standards YES!

Dennis

Kurfurst__
09-23-2008, 04:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Buzzsaw-:
German Claims

The following claims were posted by the Germans:

M****ille: 5 aircraft shot down, all accepted, victories number 117 to 121.

Stahlschmidt: 2 aircraft shot down, all accepted, victories number 49 and 50.

Lieres: 1 aircraft shot down, accepted, 18th victory.

Steinhausen: 1 aircraft shot down, accepted, 37th victory.

Total claims 9 aircraft shot down. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The above is an old copy-paste job that BS is circulating a couple of years by now. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

As a matter of fact NONE of these claims were accepted (or at least, there is no indication of that) by the Luftwaffe. Only claims were filed.

The only claim awarded on 1 September 1942 in the MTO was Obtl. Gustav Rdel's no. 53 victory claim for a Curtiss P-40, shot down at 7:01.
Another 'P-46' for Oblt. Rudolf Sinner was regarded as possibly verifiable at a later time.


See: http://www.lesbutler.ip3.co.uk/tony/medandsouthv14142_doc.zip

1. September 1942
Fliegerfhrer Afrika

01.09.42 Oblt. Rudolf Sinner: 28 6./JG 27 Curtiss P-46  15 km. S.E. El-Taqa: 3.500 m. 06.59 Film C. 2036/I Anerk: ASM
01.09.42 Oblt. Gustav Rdel: 53 Stab II./JG 27 Curtiss P-40  - 07.01 Film C. 2036/II Anerk: Nr.41
01.09.42 Oblt. Hans-Joachim M****ille: 105 3./JG 27 Curtiss P-40  18 km. S.S.E. El-Imayid 08.26 Film C. 2036/II Nr.105003/43
01.09.42 Oblt. Hans-Joachim M****ille: 106 3./JG 27 Curtiss P-40  20 km. S.S.E. El-Imayid 08.28 Film C. 2036/II Nr.105003/43
01.09.42 Oblt. Hans-Joachim M****ille: 107 3./JG 27 Curtiss P-40  18 km. S.S.E. El-Imayid 08.35 Film C. 2036/II Nr.105003/43
01.09.42 Oblt. Hans-Joachim M****ille: 108 3./JG 27 Spitfire  18 km. S.S.E. El-Imayid 08.39 Film C. 2036/II Nr.105003/43
01.09.42 Oblt. Hans-Joachim M****ille: 109 3./JG 27 Curtiss P-40  20 km. S. Alam-el-Halfa 10.55 Film C. 2036/II Nr.105003/43
01.09.42 Oblt. Hans-Joachim M****ille: 110 3./JG 27 Curtiss P-40  15 km. S.E. Alam-el-Halfa 10.56 Film C. 2036/II Nr.105003/43
01.09.42 Oblt. Hans-Joachim M****ille: 111 3./JG 27 Curtiss P-40  10 km. S.E. Alam-el-Halfa 10.58 Film C. 2036/II Nr.105003/43
01.09.42 Oblt. Hans-Joachim M****ille: 112 3./JG 27 Curtiss P-40  15 km. S.E. Alam-el-Halfa 10.59 Film C. 2036/II Nr.105003/43
01.09.42 Oblt. Hans-Joachim M****ille: 113 3./JG 27 Curtiss P-40  7 km. E.S.E. Alam-el-Halfa 11.01 Film C. 2036/II Nr.105003/43
01.09.42 Oblt. Hans-Joachim M****ille: 114 3./JG 27 Curtiss P-40  12 km. E. Alam-el-Halfa 11.02 Film C. 2036/II Nr.105003/43
01.09.42 Oblt. Hans-Joachim M****ille: 115 3./JG 27 Curtiss P-40  20 km. E. Alam-el-Halfa 11.03 Film C. 2036/II Nr.105003/43
01.09.42 Oblt. Hans-Joachim M****ille: 116 3./JG 27 Curtiss P-40  23 km. E. Alam-el-Halfa 11.05 Film C. 2036/II Nr.105003/43
01.09.42 Ltn. Hans Remmer: 12 1./JG 27 Curtiss P-40  S.E. Al-Alamein 11.12 Film C. 2036/II Nr.105004/43
01.09.42 Fw. Walter Fink: 3 7./JG 27 Spitfire  ndl. Amriya 14.15 Film C. 2036/II Nr.101543: 75
01.09.42 Fw. Gnther Steinhausen: 37 1./JG 27 Hurricane II  Alam-el-Halfa 17.46 Film C. 2036/II Nr.105004/43
01.09.42 Oblt. Hans-Joachim M****ille: 117 3./JG 27 Curtiss P-40  7 km. S. El-Imayid 17.47 Film C. 2036/II Nr.105003/43
01.09.42 Ltn. Hans-Arnold Stahlschmidt: 49 2./JG 27 Hurricane II  S.E. El-Alamein 17.48 Film C. 2036/II Nr.105004/43
01.09.42 Oblt. Hans-Joachim M****ille: 118 3./JG 27 Curtiss P-40  8 km. S. El-Imayid 17.48 Film C. 2036/II Nr.105003/43
01.09.42 Oblt. Hans-Joachim M****ille: 119 3./JG 27 Curtiss P-40  6 km. S.E. El-Imayid 17.49 Film C. 2036/II Nr.105003/43
01.09.42 Oblt. Hans-Joachim M****ille: 120 3./JG 27 Curtiss P-40  9 km. S.S.E. El-Imayid 17.50 Film C. 2036/II Nr.105003/43
01.09.42 Ltn. Hans-Arnold Stahlschmidt: 50 2./JG 27 Hurricane II  S.E. EL-Alamein 17.50 Film C. 2036/II Nr.105004/43
01.09.42 Oblt. Hans-Joachim M****ille: 121 3./JG 27 Curtiss P-40  7 km. S.S.W. El-Imayid 17.53 Film C. 2036/II Nr.105003/43
01.09.42 Ltn. Karl von Lieres u. Wilkau: 18 2./JG 27 Hurricane II  S.E. El-Alamein 17.54 Film C. 2036/II Nr.105004/43

Supplemental and/or Conflicting Claims from Other Sources:
01.09.42 Oblt. Rudolf Sinner: 29 6./JG 27 Curtiss P-46  E. El-Taqa 07.01 Reference: JG 27 Lists f. 559
01.09.42 Uffz. Max Nairz: 5 * 9./JG 53 Spitfire  - 14.10 Reference: JG 53 Lists f. 1676

Xiolablu3
09-23-2008, 04:11 AM
The thing about overclaiming is that it is often encouraged when morale is low.

Especially when good headlines are needed to keep the publics spirits up.

Da_Godfatha
09-23-2008, 04:12 AM
One other thing to remember is, the LW did not use half or fraction kills. If two pilots claim the same plane, they usualy tossed a coin or drew a card from the deck. The system they used was one of the most fair around. That means some pilts had MORE kills than the offical score. If you were unlucky with the cards..... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I also do not think the counted damged claims either. It was shot down or not, very simple.

GF http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

Kurfurst__
09-23-2008, 04:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Da_Godfatha:
One other thing to remember is, the LW did not use half or fraction kills. If two pilots claim the same plane, they usualy tossed a coin or drew a card from the deck. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

AFAIK shared kills were not counted for the pilot's totals, but they were counted in the unit totals. Which is fairly logical IMHO.

Afterhours
09-23-2008, 06:27 AM
Frequent Flyer, did you ever read Hartmann's book "The Blonde Knight of Germany"? If you did you might not worry so much about things like this.
After the fact, Hartmann was more proud of his decade or so spent in Soviet prison than he was of anything he did during the war, and near half of his book is about that time, not his flying in the war.

During the war, when he heard of another pilot talking about whether or not what he did was real or not, he told his superior officer about it and the doubter was brought to Hartmann'a airfield so he could fly with Hartmann and witness his flying and gunnery and his shooting down enemy aircraft, and that was the end of that.

Surely not every claim by every pilot in WWII was a sure thing, there are a lot of ways mistakes could be made honestly before anyone talks about outright lying and deceit.

If you read the first-hand accounts written by Hartmann, Rudel, Johnson and others, you can see how smart these men were, and you can see what outstanding personal traits these men had which let them get where they are.

If anyone was involved in anything concerning propaganda or deceit it would not be men of such substance, it would have to be politicians as first suspects and then on down the chain to the pilots who would be last.

Another interesting question would be why is it so important for you personally to discredit top WWII pilots or Hartmann in particular? Your efforts show more about you than they will Hartmann....

Lubcke
09-23-2008, 06:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Frequent_Flyer:
I often wondered if Erich Hartmanns claims would stand up to this kind of scrutiny. I know the Luftwaffe did not use " gun cameras" to the extent the US did. How many if any of his claims were verified with camera's?


http://www.j-aircraft.com/research/rdunn/anabuki/anabuki.htm </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is very funny when once again and again some one comes up with thread like this, especially it is funny when author of the thread says that his country's claims are more accurate then the others... Mean while US doesn't have any credibility. Surely You will ask how so?
Well recent history showed, that military records is a mess. High profile cases, when war heros with many awards, after scrutiny appear not so heroic and not so worthy of awards, or somebody claiming being in service mean while doing something other then serving...
I would think, that German records are most accurate as of today, because there are least people who would want them to be not accurate, and any political propaganda isn't involved, since it's so politically and morally incorrect. All these years, after war ended, many people tried to downsize German claims if anything.

HayateAce
09-23-2008, 08:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lubcke:

I would think, that German records are most accurate as of today, because there are least people who would want them to be not accurate, and any political propaganda isn't involved, since it's so politically and morally incorrect. All these years, after war ended, many people tried to downsize German claims if anything. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Brilliant logic Sherlock.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Blutarski2004
09-23-2008, 09:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lubcke:
Mean while US doesn't have any credibility. Surely You will ask how so?
Well recent history showed, that military records is a mess. High profile cases, when war heros with many awards, after scrutiny appear not so heroic and not so worthy of awards, or somebody claiming being in service mean while doing something other then serving... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


..... I agree that German claim rcords are overall very reliable.

On the other hand, US military records are hardly "a mess". There is plenty of reliable and honest data available. Whether or not people choose to use it is, of course, another story. Don't believe everything you read in the Sud-Deutsche Zeitung or the International Herald Tribune.

stalkervision
09-23-2008, 09:40 AM
Imo, it all comes down to number of missions not number of kills. If american and British fliers would have flown a similiar amount of missions to german fighter pilots in target rich enviroments there would never be this question. The kills would even right up then.

DuxCorvan
09-23-2008, 09:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gumtree:
I remember reading a case of a well respected pilot who when he landed claimed 3 enemy kills yet his ground crew could see he had not fired his guns!! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mlders, during Spanish Civil War.

HayateAce
09-23-2008, 09:49 AM
Brigadier-General Chuck Yeager

Two of his "ace in a day" kills were scored without firing a single shot; he flew into firing position against an Me-109 and the pilot of the aircraft panicked, breaking to starboard and colliding with his wingman; Yeager later reported both pilots bailed out.

waffen-79
09-23-2008, 09:52 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Blutarski2004:
..... I agree that German claim rcords are overall very reliable. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

+1

Everyone knows the Luftwaffe had the most strict methods for claiming victories

They have impressive combat records due to their prolongued activities during the war, followed by the British and Russians.

Maybe the Germans overclaimed, maybe the British didn't accepted loses, ITS CALLED PROPAGANDA

So, what's with this revisionist c_r@p putting world famous aces under the light

What's next?

Revision of American 8th Air Force gunner claims? [Do I need to quote P. Clostermann?]

Did the Tuskegee FG really didn't lose a bomber?

Leave the Legends alone

Aaron_GT
09-23-2008, 10:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Would be funny to do that on the public servers, and see all the yelling and screaming which would go on as different people in a furball claimed a kill as their own... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It would be interesting to work out what the overclaim rate would be compared to WW2.

Daiichidoku
09-23-2008, 10:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lubcke:
It is very funny when once again and again some one comes up with thread like this, especially it is funny when author of the thread says that his country's claims are more accurate then the others </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is very funny when once again and again some one comes up with a post like this, especially it is funny when author of the post says that the thread author says that the country's claims are more accurate then the others


what if the thread author was from and living in, say, Portugal?

what if he is a Russian or German national, and just moved to USA last week?


i bet you think there's red and blue "agendas" as well http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Hoenire
09-23-2008, 11:33 AM
None of the kill claims stand up to close scrutiny when taken in their totality. Individual claims/losses can be verified occasionally, no records are complete and I'm pretty sure that some pilots should have been credited with "destroyed" when they only claimed "damaged" etc. Whichever way you look at it, aces/experten were bl**dy good at what they did.

TheFamilyMan
09-23-2008, 02:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
Maneuver kill -- flew him to death. Most easy to do in mountainous terrain on or offline.
... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>In our squad, this kind of kill is honored, especially if you crash the pilot that was peppering you on your six. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

jdigris001
09-23-2008, 02:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
Maneuver kill -- flew him to death. Most easy to do in mountainous terrain on or offline.

But -- was it confirmed against known losses?

Add: would you get credit? Doesn't last one to put a shot in get the credit? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In the first gulf war a pair of USAF a/c were credited with a kill by maneuvering an Iraqi a/c into terrain. I think it was an F-111 being chased by a Mirage who was being tracked by an F-15. They shared the "kill" even though no shots were fired by either USAF a/c

LEXX_Luthor
09-23-2008, 03:37 PM
Hoen:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">None of the kill claims stand up to close scrutiny when taken in their totality. Individual claims/losses can be verified occasionally, no records are complete and I'm pretty sure that some pilots should have been credited with "destroyed" when they only claimed "damaged" etc. Whichever way you look at it, aces/experten were bl**dy good at what they did.

The ultimate in air supremacy is a tank on the runway. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yep. One may consider all kill claims to be lies and not diminish the pilots' actions. Private kill claims are strictly useful for propoganda purposes during a war, and years after a war. As we see here, people wrap themselves round the scores, and can be enticed to when needed.

Frequent_Flyer
09-23-2008, 04:32 PM
I think the point is being missed. The victors of WWII made it a point to assign the combat proven exceptional pilots to train the new ones.

All the data I have examined proves the training was the most critical difference between allied and axis powers. The largest edge the Luftwaffe had in the early stages of the war was -experience.Which they quickly lost as a result of the " fly till you die " ignorance.As the Japanese lost thier experienced pilots,the outcome was inevitable. The disparity in their aircraft vs. the allied was far greater.

Hartmann's sole purpose was to attain kills. To have the most. His kill total whatever the accurate count is , did nothing to determine the outcome of the conflict. If he had trained 50 other pilots the impact would have been greater. Especially in the east where the altitude most conflict occurred still favored the Luftwaffe's aircraft.

DKoor
09-23-2008, 04:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DuxCorvan:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gumtree:
I remember reading a case of a well respected pilot who when he landed claimed 3 enemy kills yet his ground crew could see he had not fired his guns!! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mlders, during Spanish Civil War. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>How.smart.was.that.

MB_Avro_UK
09-23-2008, 04:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Frequent_Flyer:
I think the point is being missed. The victors of WWII made it a point to assign the combat proven exceptional pilots to train the new ones.

All the data I have examined proves the training was the most critical difference between allied and axis powers. The largest edge the Luftwaffe had in the early stages of the war was -experience.Which they quickly lost as a result of the " fly till you die " ignorance.As the Japanese lost thier experienced pilots,the outcome was inevitable. The disparity in their aircraft vs. the allied was far greater.

Hartmann's sole purpose was to attain kills. To have the most. His kill total whatever the accurate count is , did nothing to determine the outcome of the conflict. If he had trained 50 other pilots the impact would have been greater. Especially in the east where the altitude most conflict occurred still favored the Luftwaffe's aircraft. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I agree http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

How many young and poorly trained Luftwaffe fighter pilots were killed ?

We hear about the best few German pilots who flew in combat for a long time...but what about the ordinary guy?

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

Lubcke
09-23-2008, 05:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Daiichidoku:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lubcke:
It is very funny when once again and again some one comes up with thread like this, especially it is funny when author of the thread says that his country's claims are more accurate then the others </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is very funny when once again and again some one comes up with a post like this, especially it is funny when author of the post says that the thread author says that the country's claims are more accurate then the others


what if the thread author was from and living in, say, Portugal?

what if he is a Russian or German national, and just moved to USA last week?


i bet you think there's red and blue "agendas" as well http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not only thinking, that there is different agendas, only stupid could not see it. My point is, why some people can't admit that Germans were best pilots in WW2. And Hartmann was the best of the best.

ImpStarDuece
09-23-2008, 06:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lubcke:

I would think, that German records are most accurate as of today, because there are least people who would want them to be not accurate, and any political propaganda isn't involved, since it's so politically and morally incorrect. All these years, after war ended, many people tried to downsize German claims if anything. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you add up all the German night fighter victories granted for British four engine bombers, you get a figure that is roughly 25% more than the of total four engine bombers that the British lost to all causes: fighters, flak, accidents, malfunctions, training and other causes.

Night fighter claims, because the typically avoided the intensity and split second judgment and concentration seen in dogfights, not to mention their smaller scale, are generally more accurate than the claims of their day fighter counterparts.

German overclaiming during the Battle of France and Battle of Britain was notorious, about 3:1.

PraetorHonoris
09-23-2008, 06:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Frequent_Flyer:
Hartmann's sole purpose was to attain kills. To have the most. His kill total whatever the accurate count is , did nothing to determine the outcome of the conflict. If he had trained 50 other pilots the impact would have been greater. Especially in the east where the altitude most conflict occurred still favored the Luftwaffe's aircraft. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The biggest problem with German flight training was not the quality of the instructors (reading that so often around here, I wonder if anyone actually has any information about the German instructors... uh?).
It was the limited time: the best ace can't turn a civilian into a fighter pilot if you have not enough flying hours for training. Furthermore, the best ace might not be the best trainer. Lastly, fuel shortage and the fact that the training ground of the Lw had become hunting ground of the Allies also contributed to the problems.

Skoshi Tiger
09-23-2008, 06:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
Maneuver kill -- flew him to death. Most easy to do in mountainous terrain on or offline.

But -- was it confirmed against known losses?

Add: would you get credit? Doesn't last one to put a shot in get the credit? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I got a maneuver kill last night on Skies of valour server on thier sov47 map.
After performing a spectacular skip bomb attack on a frieghter, hug the ground , pop up and strafe a 190 on the ground (all in a straight line) I took my p39 via a round about route back to my airbase.

I saw a 109 diving on me about 2.5km from behind, so I pointed the nose towards a patch of low cloud that was infront of mountain ridge.

I just made the cloud with the 109 .4 of a km behind me firing his guns.

I imediatly started a steep climbing turn to the left.

I cleared the cloud just in time to see a column of smoke rising from the ridge that was in the cloud! It was fairly obvious and I had actually planned it so I was fairly happy that I actually jagged it.

Unfortunately on my return to base a PE2 in trouble asked for help I went to assist and got shot down for my troubles!

leitmotiv
09-23-2008, 07:41 PM
One historian, Caldwell, who did a great deal of work in the history of JG26, and did the laborious job of cross-checking the unit's confirmed shoot downs with Allied records, came to the conclusion the Luftwaffe's standards for granting confirmations was very high, and, in fact, remarkably reliable. Conversely, he found American and British standards for granting confirmations were low. Here is his outstanding JG26 history which I recommend as one of the best air unit histories ever written---a model for others:

http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?an=CALDWE...s=t&tn=JG26&x=73&y=2 (http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?an=CALDWELL&sts=t&tn=JG26&x=73&y=2)

Skoshi Tiger
09-23-2008, 08:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MB_Avro_UK:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Frequent_Flyer:
I think the point is being missed. The victors of WWII made it a point to assign the combat proven exceptional pilots to train the new ones.

All the data I have examined proves the training was the most critical difference between allied and axis powers. The largest edge the Luftwaffe had in the early stages of the war was -experience.Which they quickly lost as a result of the " fly till you die " ignorance.As the Japanese lost thier experienced pilots,the outcome was inevitable. The disparity in their aircraft vs. the allied was far greater.

Hartmann's sole purpose was to attain kills. To have the most. His kill total whatever the accurate count is , did nothing to determine the outcome of the conflict. If he had trained 50 other pilots the impact would have been greater. Especially in the east where the altitude most conflict occurred still favored the Luftwaffe's aircraft. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I agree http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

How many young and poorly trained Luftwaffe fighter pilots were killed ?

We hear about the best few German pilots who flew in combat for a long time...but what about the ordinary guy?

Best Regards,
MB_Avro. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wonder if it was the propganda diseminated by the Nazi's had something to do about this. If your basing your ideology on racial superiority, then you have to PROVE your superior. Making High kill aces fligh till they die and rack up thoses numbers are part of the proof.

It seams that if anyone failed to meet the expectaitions of the Nazi party they were shafted fairly quick and a new hero was chosen to take their place. (Rommel as an example)

Frequent_Flyer
09-23-2008, 09:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Skoshi Tiger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MB_Avro_UK:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Frequent_Flyer:
I think the point is being missed. The victors of WWII made it a point to assign the combat proven exceptional pilots to train the new ones.

All the data I have examined proves the training was the most critical difference between allied and axis powers. The largest edge the Luftwaffe had in the early stages of the war was -experience.Which they quickly lost as a result of the " fly till you die " ignorance.As the Japanese lost thier experienced pilots,the outcome was inevitable. The disparity in their aircraft vs. the allied was far greater.

Hartmann's sole purpose was to attain kills. To have the most. His kill total whatever the accurate count is , did nothing to determine the outcome of the conflict. If he had trained 50 other pilots the impact would have been greater. Especially in the east where the altitude most conflict occurred still favored the Luftwaffe's aircraft. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I agree http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

How many young and poorly trained Luftwaffe fighter pilots were killed ?

We hear about the best few German pilots who flew in combat for a long time...but what about the ordinary guy?

Best Regards,
MB_Avro. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wonder if it was the propganda diseminated by the Nazi's had something to do about this. If your basing your ideology on racial superiority, then you have to PROVE your superior. Making High kill aces fligh till they die and rack up thoses numbers are part of the proof.

It seams that if anyone failed to meet the expectaitions of the Nazi party they were shafted fairly quick and a new hero was chosen to take their place. (Rommel as an example) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I make one wonder if Hartmann had blond hair and blue eyes? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Skoshi Tiger
09-23-2008, 10:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Frequent_Flyer:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I make one wonder if Hartmann had blond hair and blue eyes? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE> </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can't really get too angry at individuals. We've got to remember that people are people all over the world. German culture placed alot of emphasis on respecting authority and questioning your elders wasn't something that was as easy as in my culture.

Many of these german service men were very young and were doing their duty to their country. I expect it's easy to get caught up in the flow of events and end up doing some fairly horrible things. (thank god I wasn't born a German in the 1920's)

My anger is directed squarely at a system that props it self up by denegrating and puting down others through acts of violence and terror. That stifles free speach and free thought and perverts something (that could be considered fairly noble) like respect for your elders into a weapon of genercide.

Frequent_Flyer
09-23-2008, 10:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Skoshi Tiger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Frequent_Flyer:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I make one wonder if Hartmann had blond hair and blue eyes? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE> </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can't really get too angry at individuals. We've got to remember that people are people all over the world. German culture placed alot of emphasis on respecting authority and questioning your elders wasn't something that was as easy as in my culture.



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">This defense/logic proved very flawed at Nurmberg after the war. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>



Many of these german service men were very young and were doing their duty to their country. I expect it's easy to get caught up in the flow of events and end up doing some fairly horrible things. (thank god I wasn't born a German in the 1920's)

My anger is directed squarely at a system that props it self up by denegrating and puting down others through acts of violence and terror. That stifles free speach and free thought and perverts something (that could be considered fairly noble) like respect for your elders into a weapon of genercide. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Through out history uneducated , ignorant people/masses are manipulated by leaders to do horrible things. It does not absolve them " ignorance is not a plausable defense". in a civil society

The atrocities the Japanese comitted in China in the 1930's predates Hitler. Stalin out did Germany and Japan. These two get much less attention, but no less horrible." </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Buzzsaw-
09-23-2008, 11:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Buzzsaw-:
German Claims

The following claims were posted by the Germans:

M****ille: 5 aircraft shot down, all accepted, victories number 117 to 121.

Stahlschmidt: 2 aircraft shot down, all accepted, victories number 49 and 50.

Lieres: 1 aircraft shot down, accepted, 18th victory.

Steinhausen: 1 aircraft shot down, accepted, 37th victory.

Total claims 9 aircraft shot down. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The above is an old copy-paste job that BS is circulating a couple of years by now. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

As a matter of fact NONE of these claims were accepted (or at least, there is no indication of that) by the Luftwaffe. Only claims were filed.

The only claim awarded on 1 September 1942 in the MTO was Obtl. Gustav Rdel's no. 53 victory claim for a Curtiss P-40, shot down at 7:01.
Another 'P-46' for Oblt. Rudolf Sinner was regarded as possibly verifiable at a later time.


See: http://www.lesbutler.ip3.co.uk/tony/medandsouthv14142_doc.zip

1. September 1942
Fliegerfhrer Afrika

01.09.42 Oblt. Rudolf Sinner: 28 6./JG 27 Curtiss P-46  15 km. S.E. El-Taqa: 3.500 m. 06.59 Film C. 2036/I Anerk: ASM
01.09.42 Oblt. Gustav Rdel: 53 Stab II./JG 27 Curtiss P-40  - 07.01 Film C. 2036/II Anerk: Nr.41
01.09.42 Oblt. Hans-Joachim M****ille: 105 3./JG 27 Curtiss P-40  18 km. S.S.E. El-Imayid 08.26 Film C. 2036/II Nr.105003/43
01.09.42 Oblt. Hans-Joachim M****ille: 106 3./JG 27 Curtiss P-40  20 km. S.S.E. El-Imayid 08.28 Film C. 2036/II Nr.105003/43
01.09.42 Oblt. Hans-Joachim M****ille: 107 3./JG 27 Curtiss P-40  18 km. S.S.E. El-Imayid 08.35 Film C. 2036/II Nr.105003/43
01.09.42 Oblt. Hans-Joachim M****ille: 108 3./JG 27 Spitfire  18 km. S.S.E. El-Imayid 08.39 Film C. 2036/II Nr.105003/43
01.09.42 Oblt. Hans-Joachim M****ille: 109 3./JG 27 Curtiss P-40  20 km. S. Alam-el-Halfa 10.55 Film C. 2036/II Nr.105003/43
01.09.42 Oblt. Hans-Joachim M****ille: 110 3./JG 27 Curtiss P-40  15 km. S.E. Alam-el-Halfa 10.56 Film C. 2036/II Nr.105003/43
01.09.42 Oblt. Hans-Joachim M****ille: 111 3./JG 27 Curtiss P-40  10 km. S.E. Alam-el-Halfa 10.58 Film C. 2036/II Nr.105003/43
01.09.42 Oblt. Hans-Joachim M****ille: 112 3./JG 27 Curtiss P-40  15 km. S.E. Alam-el-Halfa 10.59 Film C. 2036/II Nr.105003/43
01.09.42 Oblt. Hans-Joachim M****ille: 113 3./JG 27 Curtiss P-40  7 km. E.S.E. Alam-el-Halfa 11.01 Film C. 2036/II Nr.105003/43
01.09.42 Oblt. Hans-Joachim M****ille: 114 3./JG 27 Curtiss P-40  12 km. E. Alam-el-Halfa 11.02 Film C. 2036/II Nr.105003/43
01.09.42 Oblt. Hans-Joachim M****ille: 115 3./JG 27 Curtiss P-40  20 km. E. Alam-el-Halfa 11.03 Film C. 2036/II Nr.105003/43
01.09.42 Oblt. Hans-Joachim M****ille: 116 3./JG 27 Curtiss P-40  23 km. E. Alam-el-Halfa 11.05 Film C. 2036/II Nr.105003/43
01.09.42 Ltn. Hans Remmer: 12 1./JG 27 Curtiss P-40  S.E. Al-Alamein 11.12 Film C. 2036/II Nr.105004/43
01.09.42 Fw. Walter Fink: 3 7./JG 27 Spitfire  ndl. Amriya 14.15 Film C. 2036/II Nr.101543: 75
01.09.42 Fw. Gnther Steinhausen: 37 1./JG 27 Hurricane II  Alam-el-Halfa 17.46 Film C. 2036/II Nr.105004/43
01.09.42 Oblt. Hans-Joachim M****ille: 117 3./JG 27 Curtiss P-40  7 km. S. El-Imayid 17.47 Film C. 2036/II Nr.105003/43
01.09.42 Ltn. Hans-Arnold Stahlschmidt: 49 2./JG 27 Hurricane II  S.E. El-Alamein 17.48 Film C. 2036/II Nr.105004/43
01.09.42 Oblt. Hans-Joachim M****ille: 118 3./JG 27 Curtiss P-40  8 km. S. El-Imayid 17.48 Film C. 2036/II Nr.105003/43
01.09.42 Oblt. Hans-Joachim M****ille: 119 3./JG 27 Curtiss P-40  6 km. S.E. El-Imayid 17.49 Film C. 2036/II Nr.105003/43
01.09.42 Oblt. Hans-Joachim M****ille: 120 3./JG 27 Curtiss P-40  9 km. S.S.E. El-Imayid 17.50 Film C. 2036/II Nr.105003/43
01.09.42 Ltn. Hans-Arnold Stahlschmidt: 50 2./JG 27 Hurricane II  S.E. EL-Alamein 17.50 Film C. 2036/II Nr.105004/43
01.09.42 Oblt. Hans-Joachim M****ille: 121 3./JG 27 Curtiss P-40  7 km. S.S.W. El-Imayid 17.53 Film C. 2036/II Nr.105003/43
01.09.42 Ltn. Karl von Lieres u. Wilkau: 18 2./JG 27 Hurricane II  S.E. El-Alamein 17.54 Film C. 2036/II Nr.105004/43

Supplemental and/or Conflicting Claims from Other Sources:
01.09.42 Oblt. Rudolf Sinner: 29 6./JG 27 Curtiss P-46  E. El-Taqa 07.01 Reference: JG 27 Lists f. 559
01.09.42 Uffz. Max Nairz: 5 * 9./JG 53 Spitfire  - 14.10 Reference: JG 53 Lists f. 1676 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If there is one standard we can be sure of, as sure as Summer turns to Fall, it is that Isegrim/Kurfurst will tell us German aircraft are the best and German pilots never overclaim... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Too bad the information you provide does more to backup my comments than debunk them. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

The linked page you provide IS a victory list, not a claim list. M****illes number of victories are listed next to the claim/award, through the document, up to the day he died, on Sept 26th 1942. 158 is his total, each one corresponding to the entry on the log you provide.

My comments stand.

M****ille was a great pilot. But it is clear, from comparing the British loss records with the German claims, that there were days when he and his co-pilots overclaimed. The evidence points to the likelyhood that some of those overclaims were his.

Skoshi Tiger
09-24-2008, 12:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Frequent_Flyer:
This defense/logic proved very flawed at Nurmberg after the war.
...
Through out history uneducated , ignorant people/masses are manipulated by leaders to do horrible things. It does not absolve them " ignorance is not a plausable defense". in a civil society

The atrocities the Japanese comitted in China in the 1930's predates Hitler. Stalin out did Germany and Japan. These two get much less attention, but no less horrible." </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your 100% right of course, I'm not arguing with you there.

Whats the quote - "All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing!"

Still the majority of my ill feeling falls on the system that perpetuated the horror and not the german people as a whole.

The good thing is, in a world gone mad with political correctness, Nazi's are just about the only minority group we can vilify with complete impunity! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

M_Gunz
09-24-2008, 12:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">M****ille was a great pilot. But it is clear, from comparing the British loss records with the German claims, that there were days when he and his co-pilots overclaimed. The evidence points to the likelyhood that some of those overclaims were his. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ummmmm, the below is part of the text you quoted:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">As a matter of fact NONE of these claims were accepted (or at least, there is no indication of that) by the Luftwaffe. Only claims were filed.

The only claim awarded on 1 September 1942 in the MTO was Obtl. Gustav Rdel's no. 53 victory claim for a Curtiss P-40, shot down at 7:01.
Another 'P-46' for Oblt. Rudolf Sinner was regarded as possibly verifiable at a later time. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So obviously his claims were rejected. Rodel is not M-a-r-s-e-i-l-l-e-s.
Not part of the total victories.

HJM wrote air combat lessons, didn't he?

Bremspropeller
09-24-2008, 05:59 AM
http://www.acesofww2.com/germany/aces/Hartmann.htm

A nice story about Hartmann's career in general - without the nerdy kill-claim-disputes.

I especially like the part when he get's handed his a$$ by Grislawski - minor in rank, but much senior in experiance he was one to teach Hrtmann the ropes of air-combat.

Have a ball and read it.

+-+-+-+-+-+--+-+-+-+-


There is no "Mars eilleS" his name is
"Mars eille", just like the city - in French. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Blutarski2004
09-24-2008, 06:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by leitmotiv:
One historian, Caldwell, who did a great deal of work in the history of JG26, and did the laborious job of cross-checking the unit's confirmed shoot downs with Allied records, came to the conclusion the Luftwaffe's standards for granting confirmations was very high, and, in fact, remarkably reliable. Conversely, he found American and British standards for granting confirmations were low. Here is his outstanding JG26 history which I recommend as one of the best air unit histories ever written---a model for others:

http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?an=CALDWE...s=t&tn=JG26&x=73&y=2 (http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?an=CALDWELL&sts=t&tn=JG26&x=73&y=2) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


..... Indeed agree re quality of Caldwell's work.

It's also worth mentioning that Norman Franks, who has spent his adult life researching the air war over the Western Front in WW1, concludes that of the five air forces involved in that fighting, German claim records were the most reliable.

Da_Godfatha
09-24-2008, 07:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lubcke:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Frequent_Flyer:
I often wondered if Erich Hartmanns claims would stand up to this kind of scrutiny. I know the Luftwaffe did not use " gun cameras" to the extent the US did. How many if any of his claims were verified with camera's?


http://www.j-aircraft.com/research/rdunn/anabuki/anabuki.htm </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is very funny when once again and again some one comes up with thread like this, especially it is funny when author of the thread says that his country's claims are more accurate then the others... Mean while US doesn't have any credibility. Surely You will ask how so?
Well recent history showed, that military records is a mess. High profile cases, when war heros with many awards, after scrutiny appear not so heroic and not so worthy of awards, or somebody claiming being in service mean while doing something other then serving...
I would think, that German records are most accurate as of today, because there are least people who would want them to be not accurate, and any political propaganda isn't involved, since it's so politically and morally incorrect. All these years, after war ended, many people tried to downsize German claims if anything. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

How true. It reminds me of a true story about thetime I was in Vietnam. Mind you, I was not there when it happend, but two of my Bro's were on the patrol when it did. They had a guy (I will not name him out of respect for his family), who was one of those who always fouled up, you know, walks past a booby-trap on patrol, sneezes on the amubush, etc. He was a nice guy, but rather clumsy. One day on patrol this guy walks again past a trap, but this time he springs it (grenade in a c-ration can), the story gets a little muddled now, he either trips over his own feet or is thrown by the man behind him on the grenade. It explodes and the poor guy was killed. Well, to make a long story short, this guy was given the highest award (postum)for this action. Did he deserve it, dunno. It just goes to show you, if you look hard enough, some things are not like they seem.

GF http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

Da_Godfatha
09-24-2008, 07:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lubcke:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Daiichidoku:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lubcke:
It is very funny when once again and again some one comes up with thread like this, especially it is funny when author of the thread says that his country's claims are more accurate then the others </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is very funny when once again and again some one comes up with a post like this, especially it is funny when author of the post says that the thread author says that the country's claims are more accurate then the others


what if the thread author was from and living in, say, Portugal?

what if he is a Russian or German national, and just moved to USA last week?


i bet you think there's red and blue "agendas" as well http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not only thinking, that there is different agendas, only stupid could not see it. My point is, why some people can't admit that Germans were best pilots in WW2. And Hartmann was the best of the best. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

To be honest, today we would call them point-*****s. It makes really no differance if you had 1 or 100 kills. They did not do the job right. To obatin and maintain Air Superiority. The Germans lost it....fact. They lost the war.....fact.

No amount of sugar-coating will change that. They were good. But not good enough.

GF http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

Afterhours
09-24-2008, 09:16 AM
On the eastern front where Hartmann flew, the pilot with the most kills had command and seniority in the air, no matter what rank they carried on the ground even if they were only enlisted men.

So it would not really be a lot of incentive for an average or bad pilot or person to cheat to get ahead, then have to lead and make command decisions in the air during fighting and get themselves and everyone else into trouble.

Allied kill claims on the western front on the part of fighter pilots and bomber gunners were wildly inaccurate compared to German loss records for the same battles, it is really funny to read even.

I.E., On June 22nd 1943, the 4th and 78th fighter groups, flying P-47s, waded into JG26 FW190s which were attacking B-17s that were flying a diversionary raid by Antwerp.
The P-47s claimed 7 fw190 kills when in fact none were lost at all! Previously to the P-47s arrival three fw190s had landed because of taking hits from bomber gunners.
JG-26 claimed one P-47, when in fact all returned to base safely.

It is interesting to imagine how P-47 pilots could think they shot down seven fw190s when in fact they shot down none at all, but this was typical. They also wildly inflated the numbers of fighters they encountered, often saying they had engaged hundreds of enemy fighters when in fact the numbers were a small fraction of that.

Growing up in american culture and seeing the relationships and psychology americans breed from elementary school on up, sports jocks, frat-houses, business hierarchies, it is easy to know how things like this can happen, probably the same phenomenon that lets american corporations artificially inflate profit reports and such that has led to the current world financial crisis.




German

Bewolf
09-24-2008, 09:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Da_Godfatha:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lubcke:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Daiichidoku:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lubcke:
It is very funny when once again and again some one comes up with thread like this, especially it is funny when author of the thread says that his country's claims are more accurate then the others </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is very funny when once again and again some one comes up with a post like this, especially it is funny when author of the post says that the thread author says that the country's claims are more accurate then the others


what if the thread author was from and living in, say, Portugal?

what if he is a Russian or German national, and just moved to USA last week?


i bet you think there's red and blue "agendas" as well http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not only thinking, that there is different agendas, only stupid could not see it. My point is, why some people can't admit that Germans were best pilots in WW2. And Hartmann was the best of the best. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

To be honest, today we would call them point-*****s. It makes really no differance if you had 1 or 100 kills. They did not do the job right. To obatin and maintain Air Superiority. The Germans lost it....fact. They lost the war.....fact.

No amount of sugar-coating will change that. They were good. But not good enough.

GF http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah, the good old beat to death argument once everything else fails. A true classic! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/metal.gif

You forgot to mention the germans reaped the wind they sowed and that they killed millions of innocents, thus making anything respectable or noteworthy automaticly a fail and also giving everything the allies did a gloriole.

But no worries, enough forum expirience will teach you to be more profound next time! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

hop2002
09-24-2008, 10:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">As a matter of fact NONE of these claims were accepted (or at least, there is no indication of that) by the Luftwaffe. Only claims were filed.

The only claim awarded on 1 September 1942 in the MTO was Obtl. Gustav Rdel's no. 53 victory claim for a Curtiss P-40, shot down at 7:01.
Another 'P-46' for Oblt. Rudolf Sinner was regarded as possibly verifiable at a later time.



So obviously his claims were rejected. Rodel is not M-a-r-s-e-i-l-l-e-s. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bear in mind this is Kurfurst's opinion.

The truth of the matter is the Luftwaffe records are in a mess. Either we have a list of claims, or we have a list of confirmed kills.

If you apply Isegrim's standards, and assume it's a list of claims, unless otherwise noted, then M****ille had 0 confirmed kills. He had 159 claims.

Under the same standards Galland had 16 kills, Molders none on the western front.

On the other hand, if you believe M****ille had 158 confirmed kills, then only 1 of his claims was ever denied, unless of course he put in even more claims than are in the records.

waffen-79
09-24-2008, 10:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Originally posted by Skoshi Tiger
The good thing is, in a world gone mad with political correctness, Nazi's are just about the only minority group we can vilify with complete impunity!
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

QFT, QFT indeed

But what you guys are forgetting is this:

The attacks aren't directed to the nazi regime but to PILOTS, pilots that we, as combat flight simulator enthusiasts SHOULD Respect, they are Legends

It's funny how bashing a pilot is O.K. as long as he is german.

They were young people, doing their duty, persons as you and me. i.e:

Gen. Johannes Steinhoff - he said the stress was enormous when the skies were clear and weather good, they knew the bombers will come and that he must fly to meet them

Maj. George E. Preddy, Jr. - 5 victories in 1 sortie, he puked!, I say again, he puked due to stress, tireness and anxiety, but he pulled together and shot down 5 109's

What's the point of this inquisition, as megile would say: Don't ACE HATE!

Buzzsaw-
09-24-2008, 12:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by waffen-79:

But what you guys are forgetting is this:

The attacks aren't directed to the nazi regime but to PILOTS, pilots that we, as combat flight simulator enthusiasts SHOULD Respect, they are Legends

It's funny how bashing a pilot is O.K. as long as he is german. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No one is bashing pilots.

As I said before in this thread, Jans Joachim Mars.eille was a great pilot. He deserves our respect for his achievements.

My point all along, has been that ALL SIDES OVERCLAIMED. Those who claim that 'oh yes, my favourite side NEVER overclaimed, they were perfect!' have their heads buried firmly up their you know where.

All of the facts when carefully examined, point to the reality that in the confusion of battle, it was common for pilots of all sides to be overly optimistic in their assessment of how successful they might have been.

No side had a perfect record in regards to overclaiming, although some were worse than others, in particular, the Japanese, Soviets and Italians. But even the Germans, who had a pretty good system for checking claims, had time periods when their claims were vastly inflated. (in particular, the Battle of France, and the Battle of Britain)

I_KG100_Prien
09-24-2008, 01:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bremspropeller:
http://www.acesofww2.com/germany/aces/Hartmann.htm

A nice story about Hartmann's career in general - without the nerdy kill-claim-disputes.

I especially like the part when he get's handed his a$$ by Grislawski - minor in rank, but much senior in experiance he was one to teach Hrtmann the ropes of air-combat.

Have a ball and read it.

+-+-+-+-+-+--+-+-+-+-


There is no "Mars eilleS" his name is
"Mars eille", just like the city - in French. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Thanks Brems-

This was the most worthwhile post in the entire thread so far- Much more interesting and fun to read than the usual bickering.

JSG72
09-24-2008, 01:17 PM
Just spotted this thread.
I have to agree that Confirmed claims are hard to track down.
Having read and in possesion of Bucketloads of publications pertaining to Pilot encounters.
Including All of the Osprey WW2 Aces books. As well as The JG26 diaries and JG300s. The Jagdwaffe series from Classic publications As well as a multitude of Aircraft specific publications.
It has come to my notice that Especially when reading the Aces books. You begin to wonder how anyone actually survived the war other than those particular "Aces" Every encounter from any side seems to result in a "More shooting down of the enemy" Than losses taken?
I suppose that authers researching Unit Histories will mostly gain unit claims records. and glean the information and perhaps manage an interview with a pilot involved. Everyone loves recounting an incedent.
Point is It has been a human frailty from Time imemorial to embellish accounts o any event Be it a Car crash/Gunfight/Soccer match/Wedding disaster or an Arial dogfight.

As regards Aces training pilots. I have an account somewhere of a young German Nightfighter pilot. Who appeared to be a bit pi**ed with the fact that when operating within "The Himmelbet" system He was constantly overlooked when a target came onto Ground radar within his box and The enemy plane being assigned to the unit leader. who even if the young pilot had managed to shoot it down. He was impressed to allow the commander the Kill.

High scoring Aces are also not much good when taken out of their comfort zone. Look at Nowotny with the Me262. Not much acheived their. (And I am aware of the difficulties of the unit at the time.)

I need to read more about Hans Rudel(A staunch Nazi who was acredited with all manner of victories http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/halo.gif)

BTw. An excellent book to read about Tyros in the late War Luftwaffe is "Green Hearts" First with the Dora 9

Then you read the anguish of being on the Losing side Day aftr day with pilots names only appearing on the "Unit register" for a day or two before they are gone. Lost in the meat grinder.

luftluuver
09-24-2008, 01:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">It has come to my notice that Especially when reading the Aces books. You begin to wonder how anyone actually survived the war other than those particular "Aces" Every encounter from any side seems to result in a "More shooting down of the enemy" Than losses taken? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You don't expect to read of encounters when their butts were handed to them, do you? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Kurfurst__
09-24-2008, 01:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by hop2002:
The truth of the matter is the Luftwaffe records are in a mess. Either we have a list of claims, or we have a list of confirmed kills. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well that's easy to settle. You only need to read the title of the document compiled by Tony Wood, unless if you haven't done that already in the past three years while you were arguing - and only God knows on what basis, even though the motive is rather simple to guess - that each and every one of the claims listed in Tony Woods list titled 'O.K.L. Fighter Claims'* is a confirmed kills, since, as you argue, the Luftwaffe just 'automatically confirmed' each and every one of them.

* Tony Wood also describes the terms he uses in his compilation, if anyone has doubt:

2. Terms.
Date, Name, Unit and Type normal.
Locations in various forms: a. geographical position. b. map reference. c. Luftwaffe Gradnetz (Fighter-Grid): e.g. 05 Ost S/GU-5 is Hannover City Centre. Time in German Time: either CET or CET+1.
Film Reference marks the BA-MA film identification.
Anerk: = Anerkennung (Acknowledgement) certificate and number.
VNE=Vernichtung nicht erwiesen=Destruction not yet proven.
ASM=Anerkennung spter moglich=Confirmation to be later decided.
Abgelehnt=Forwarded.
i.Zus.Arb.=im Zusammenarbeit=in collaboration with.
im Zus.=im Zusammenwirken=in cooperation with.

Other names.
HSS=Herausabschu=Shoot-out i.e. enemy aircraft separated from the protection of its formation.
e.V.=endgltige Vernichtung=Final Destruction i.e. shooting-down of a straggler previously separated and damaged from its formation as a Herausabsch (HSS).
w.b.=wirklich beschossen=well shot-up or damaged.
o.Z.=ohne Zeuge=without witness.


It pretty clear actually what this list is and what individual entries mean. It just a case that some lack the skills neccessary to read to instructions, or the integrity to take them into account, or both. That is how a compilation list with a title 'claims' becomes uncertain in their meaning, and that is how an claim entry which only contain the Federal Military Archives (BAMA) microfilm reference to the claim, but does not yield any other information about wheter the claim was accepted, rejected or awaiting processing - either because the file containing the information went missing or because the research behind the online compilation has not found it yet - becomes in the interpretation of some 'a confirmed kill'.

JSG72
09-24-2008, 01:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by luftluuver:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">It has come to my notice that Especially when reading the Aces books. You begin to wonder how anyone actually survived the war other than those particular "Aces" Every encounter from any side seems to result in a "More shooting down of the enemy" Than losses taken? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You don't expect to read of encounters when their butts were handed to them, do you? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
As mentioned luft.
If you haven't/ Try get a hold of a copy of "Green Hearts" Their Butts and many other body parts were handed to them on many occasions. All written in first hand. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

JSG72
09-24-2008, 01:45 PM
BTW. I am sure that most of yous know that the Luftwaffe had a strict measure of claiming.
Although I am fairly sure that this was more enforced within "The Defence of the Reich" (I.E. The fact that claims had to be made with map refrences of crash and/or a witness either Unit or ground) Of course this would be an easier system to police. (Find the wreck. You get the kill. Of course this could take a while.

Don't for a minute think that those rules were the same when fighting over The Prippet Marshes or Leningrad/Sevastipol. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

The Western Desert/Med HMmm..

I am of the opinion that the good "Aces" Flew over France/Belgium/Holland/Germany '41-'44 Eg. Brit/American or German. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/halo.gif

Da_Godfatha
09-24-2008, 04:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bewolf:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Da_Godfatha:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lubcke:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Daiichidoku:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lubcke:
It is very funny when once again and again some one comes up with thread like this, especially it is funny when author of the thread says that his country's claims are more accurate then the others </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is very funny when once again and again some one comes up with a post like this, especially it is funny when author of the post says that the thread author says that the country's claims are more accurate then the others


what if the thread author was from and living in, say, Portugal?

what if he is a Russian or German national, and just moved to USA last week?


i bet you think there's red and blue "agendas" as well http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not only thinking, that there is different agendas, only stupid could not see it. My point is, why some people can't admit that Germans were best pilots in WW2. And Hartmann was the best of the best. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

To be honest, today we would call them point-*****s. It makes really no differance if you had 1 or 100 kills. They did not do the job right. To obatin and maintain Air Superiority. The Germans lost it....fact. They lost the war.....fact.

No amount of sugar-coating will change that. They were good. But not good enough.

GF http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah, the good old beat to death argument once everything else fails. A true classic! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/metal.gif

You forgot to mention the germans reaped the wind they sowed and that they killed millions of innocents, thus making anything respectable or noteworthy automaticly a fail and also giving everything the allies did a gloriole.

But no worries, enough forum expirience will teach you to be more profound next time! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmm, the truth hurts don't it? I know, I know, the Good misunderstood Nazi's did not start the war or fire bombed Warsaw, Rotterdam, Coventry, or anyone else. Only the evil English and Americans did. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Talk about revisionist history........ http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/disagree.gif BTW, was was so "Respectable" about what they did? Killed many pilots and crews who tried to fight the EVIL coming from Germany at that time? Kill people who tried to stop a new Dark Age? Man, get it together. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

GF http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

JSG72
09-24-2008, 04:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Da_Godfatha:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bewolf:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Da_Godfatha:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lubcke:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Daiichidoku:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lubcke:
It is very funny when once again and again some one comes up with thread like this, especially it is funny when author of the thread says that his country's claims are more accurate then the others </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is very funny when once again and again some one comes up with a post like this, especially it is funny when author of the post says that the thread author says that the country's claims are more accurate then the others


what if the thread author was from and living in, say, Portugal?

what if he is a Russian or German national, and just moved to USA last week?


i bet you think there's red and blue "agendas" as well http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not only thinking, that there is different agendas, only stupid could not see it. My point is, why some people can't admit that Germans were best pilots in WW2. And Hartmann was the best of the best. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

To be honest, today we would call them point-*****s. It makes really no differance if you had 1 or 100 kills. They did not do the job right. To obatin and maintain Air Superiority. The Germans lost it....fact. They lost the war.....fact.

No amount of sugar-coating will change that. They were good. But not good enough.

GF http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah, the good old beat to death argument once everything else fails. A true classic! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/metal.gif

You forgot to mention the germans reaped the wind they sowed and that they killed millions of innocents, thus making anything respectable or noteworthy automaticly a fail and also giving everything the allies did a gloriole.

But no worries, enough forum expirience will teach you to be more profound next time! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmm, the truth hurts don't it? I know, I know, the Good misunderstood Nazi's did not start the war or fire bombed Warsaw, Rotterdam, Coventry, or anyone else. Only the evil English and Americans did. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Talk about revisionist history........ http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/disagree.gif BTW, was was so "Respectable" about what they did? Killed many pilots and crews who tried to fight the EVIL coming from Germany at that time? Kill people who tried to stop a new Dark Age? Man, get it together. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

GF http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

"Wifebeater"? Tonight . Is it?

Bremspropeller
09-24-2008, 04:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Nazi's </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Epic fail http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Blutarski2004
09-24-2008, 05:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Da_Godfatha:
Hmmm, the truth hurts don't it? I know, I know, the Good misunderstood Nazi's did not start the war or fire bombed Warsaw, Rotterdam, Coventry, or anyone else. Only the evil English and Americans did. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Talk about revisionist history........ http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/disagree.gif BTW, was was so "Respectable" about what they did? Killed many pilots and crews who tried to fight the EVIL coming from Germany at that time? Kill people who tried to stop a new Dark Age? Man, get it together. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

GF http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


..... Give it a rest there, GF. You're getting the emoticons all excited.

Skoshi Tiger
09-24-2008, 08:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by waffen-79:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Originally posted by Skoshi Tiger
The good thing is, in a world gone mad with political correctness, Nazi's are just about the only minority group we can vilify with complete impunity!
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

QFT, QFT indeed

But what you guys are forgetting is this:
.....
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think if you had quotes the previous line <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Still the majority of my ill feeling falls on the system that perpetuated the horror and not the german people as a whole.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE> in your post, or the sentiments from my previous post you'ld see thats the point I'm trying to make (however clumsily).

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by waffen-79:

What's the point of this inquisition, as megile would say: Don't ACE HATE! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

My sentiments exactly.

One fact of life is, that if you are fighting over your own teritory, where claims can be physically verified, they are going to be more accurate than if you need to rely on other evidence like eye witness accounts or grainy guncamera footage.

Bewolf
09-25-2008, 02:52 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Da_Godfatha:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bewolf:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Da_Godfatha:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lubcke:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Daiichidoku:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lubcke:
It is very funny when once again and again some one comes up with thread like this, especially it is funny when author of the thread says that his country's claims are more accurate then the others </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is very funny when once again and again some one comes up with a post like this, especially it is funny when author of the post says that the thread author says that the country's claims are more accurate then the others


what if the thread author was from and living in, say, Portugal?

what if he is a Russian or German national, and just moved to USA last week?


i bet you think there's red and blue "agendas" as well http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not only thinking, that there is different agendas, only stupid could not see it. My point is, why some people can't admit that Germans were best pilots in WW2. And Hartmann was the best of the best. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

To be honest, today we would call them point-*****s. It makes really no differance if you had 1 or 100 kills. They did not do the job right. To obatin and maintain Air Superiority. The Germans lost it....fact. They lost the war.....fact.

No amount of sugar-coating will change that. They were good. But not good enough.

GF http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah, the good old beat to death argument once everything else fails. A true classic! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/metal.gif

You forgot to mention the germans reaped the wind they sowed and that they killed millions of innocents, thus making anything respectable or noteworthy automaticly a fail and also giving everything the allies did a gloriole.

But no worries, enough forum expirience will teach you to be more profound next time! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmm, the truth hurts don't it? I know, I know, the Good misunderstood Nazi's did not start the war or fire bombed Warsaw, Rotterdam, Coventry, or anyone else. Only the evil English and Americans did. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Talk about revisionist history........ http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/disagree.gif BTW, was was so "Respectable" about what they did? Killed many pilots and crews who tried to fight the EVIL coming from Germany at that time? Kill people who tried to stop a new Dark Age? Man, get it together. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

GF http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif see, I told you you'd get it right eventually.