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pfslau
11-30-2010, 08:43 AM
This is a bit embarassing to admit, but I am a newbie and practicing QMB with 1 vs 1. Me a Hurricane, computer(Average or Rookie) a Gladiator.

Assuming I don't shoot him up on the initial pass, I am having a real difficult time shooting the Gladiator down! It turns better than me. Seems to out climb me, or it's close, and maybe I have a better top speed, but doesn't seem by much.

Has anyone tried this, can you try it, and if so post the Trk file, and or give me any tips on this.

Thanks!

pfslau
11-30-2010, 08:43 AM
This is a bit embarassing to admit, but I am a newbie and practicing QMB with 1 vs 1. Me a Hurricane, computer(Average or Rookie) a Gladiator.

Assuming I don't shoot him up on the initial pass, I am having a real difficult time shooting the Gladiator down! It turns better than me. Seems to out climb me, or it's close, and maybe I have a better top speed, but doesn't seem by much.

Has anyone tried this, can you try it, and if so post the Trk file, and or give me any tips on this.

Thanks!

ytareh
11-30-2010, 08:53 AM
Ok a few issues AI will have betetr engine management and perfect gun convergence etc so mightnt be as easy a fight as you think.....when youre 'running away' go for a long long time to give yourself a big gap before coming round to face him again and /or try get behind him.Few planes turn better than the Gladiator ...why not try fight against ...say .... Hmmm the trouble is all realistic opponents are gonna turn waaay better eg I16 etc or be faster or both ...how about trying your luck against an Me/Bf 110 ...?

DKoor
11-30-2010, 10:21 AM
Hurri unfortunately isn't so hot plane that some people may think it is... performance wise. Personally I like it better than Spitfire because it has some mojo that Spit lacks http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif ... and honestly it really can outturn Bf-109 with no major probs.

With Gladiator you need to build some speed before you engage it... because Glad can hang on its prop while climbing and also is extra hot in turning, so engaging yourself in any kind of maneuvering vs Glad is very wrong tactic. You need to convert your superior speed into your decisive advantage.
Either that or simply outturn it since you fly vs Ai and Ai turns terribly.

JtD
11-30-2010, 10:23 AM
Up to 5000m the Gladiator is hard to beat in a dogfight. You really need to count on your speed, extend, and come back with an advantage.

Above 5000m you have the better climb rate on your side, so you should be able to gain on it in a climb as well, after which you can drop down on it and try to blow it up.

In case you're using a Hurricane Mk.II, which has the better high altitude performance, don't forget you need to have the supercharger in high gear, otherwise your plane simply sucks at high altitude.

And there's nothing embarrassing about having difficulties shooting a Gladiator down. It was named after Russel Crowe.

Welcome to the forums! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Bankoletti
11-30-2010, 10:35 AM
This sounded like a challenge, so I fired up a quick mission builder and shot down 4 Gladiators on ace level with a Hurri MkI. Pit on, externals on, initial altitude equal (1000m), head on merge, Moscow winter map. As a sidenote to the track - a Gladiator has a fixed pitch prop, so it has problems climbing at very low (near stall) speeds. Keep outclimbing them and try to make them climb as steeply as possible, as slow as possible. They'll keep stalling out. But don't forget - dogfighting a Gladiator is like toying with a scorpion. You loose your E advantage, you die.

Track. (http://www.filefront.com/17586005/HurriMkIvs4xGlad_ace.ntrk)

M_Gunz
11-30-2010, 01:46 PM
If you can get circling about 500m above him then you can spiral down and shoot him as he tries to climb up to you. He will lose the climb avoiding your pass even if you don't shoot/hit. Make sure you don't slow down in the pass, zoom back up but not steeply and continue to circle at higher speed than your victim. The tactic is known online as rope-a-dope.

How you get above in the first place is use your speed. If he tries to keep up with you, his shallow climb will be less than yours and you can spiral up (fly straight and you'll be an easy target). When you are faster than him, you can zoom higher.

If your speed margin is too low then look to your trim and your rudder coordination as well as supercharger. IL2 planes need to be kept in trim to make good speed and acceleration. They need to be kept out of slip for same reason. As a newbie you might not know these, some people have shown they didn't/don't even after long time playing IL2. If you don't have those down then it's probably at the heart of your problem.

horseback
11-30-2010, 05:11 PM
Note that against AI, you have to deal with an opponent who (even at Rookie level) technically flies the aircraft to 100% of its potential in most cases, is not subject in some ways to negative G restrictions or dive limits, and always knows exactly where your crosshairs are relative to himself.

Most of the time, the AI will be able to out accelerate the human pilot, particularly one new to the game regardless of what the 'book' says about the two aircraft.

On the plus side, you will have an aircraft capable of considerably higher speeds and climb (if you do it at the right time), and you have a great deal more freedom of action than an ai routine; it is predictable and you don't have to be. Stay high and fast and BE PATIENT.

Good Things will follow.

cheers

horseback

VW-IceFire
11-30-2010, 06:04 PM
Challenge accepted!

And actually it's kind of hard. The Hurricane Mark I as it's modeled (which is somewhat lesser than RAF Mark I's during BoB) doesn't have a big performance advantage over the Gladiator and it gives up quite a bit of agility. With the Mark I it is difficult... with the Mark II you have the climb and overall engine power to always have energy advantage over the Gladiator.

Xiolablu3
11-30-2010, 06:52 PM
Hi Pfslau and welcome.

You MUST learn about 'energy' when fighting with WW2 aircraft. None of the WW2 planes have enough power to point straight up and keep going, so you must learn how to conserve your speed and energy.

Just to try and explain what I mean a bit better, when fighting a more agile opponent (like the gladiator) with you in a faster but less agile plane (like the Hurricane) try and think of your plane as a pendalum when attacking the gladiator, that may help you to understand what we mean.

If you are a total newbie to the sim then swap the Hurricane for a Spitfire MkV or IX, or a Bf109 F4 or G2. These planes have a lot more power than the Hurricane Mk1 and you will learn better. once you can shoot down the gladiator in one of these, then try the Hurricane Mk 2, and then Mk1.

Its really not as embarrassing as you might think. The natural thing to do in a Aircraft 'game' is try and turn tighter than your opponent. But in this sim that is not always possible, so you must find other ways to win. (Energy and height)

If tight turning alone won real aircraft battles then Air Forces would still be flying Biplanes.

WTE_Galway
11-30-2010, 09:09 PM
My inclination would be something like dive before the merge turning away slightly drawing him into a dive and then use your excess speed to zoom climb and reverse your turn passing above him while still maintaining a good speed.

M_Gunz
11-30-2010, 10:33 PM
About now I think to tell pfslau that it would be good if he were to fly the Gladiator against the Hurricane a few times just to see where the Gladiator is weak. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WTE_Galway:
My inclination would be something like dive before the merge turning away slightly drawing him into a dive and then use your excess speed to zoom climb and reverse your turn passing above him while still maintaining a good speed. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There's a version of that I learned from a FS-Guru back on the old Delphi FSF in 98 that's stood me well since. If you have a faster plane, even slightly faster, that's less well in turns then fly on a tilted circle (really egg-shaped circle that's tighter at the top where you're slower and wide at the low end where you're faster). It's kind of a closed-loop version of what you describe there Galway. That allows for me the chance to gain on and close a circle.
The speed you have will let you outzoom the enemy while the curving flight keeps you from hanging in his sights. If he slows down or crosses the circle you should be able to zoom and stay up to dance on his head or extend then zoom if you're on the downswing. Eventually your excess energy advantage will bring you around behind him if he doesn't wise up and run first. Once you are behind and faster/higher the advantage is set and top speed/sustained climb comparisons are out the window. You can hang at the high end for a extra degrees of get-behind on every cycle once he is struggling just trying to keep position.

That is one of my basics along with spiral climb and yoyo fighting. They all allow to incorporate repeated BnZ.

There are counters to any move regardless, these are not 'every-time' 'button-push' solutions and must be actively managed with readiness to switch tactics quickly.

pfslau
12-01-2010, 01:27 AM
Thanks all for all your comments and help!
I checked out Bankoletti Track and that was awesome! I think that shows a great example of the energy fighting. I watched it once, but will be studying it religiously. As a newbie you tend to want to turn into the enemy, but that's not really possible with the Gladiator. So these are all great tips.

Question on to what M_Gunz said with keeping everything trimmed.
I trim the elevator quite often, but
how often does everyone trim the Aileron or Rudder(is there a rudder trim?). I don't even have these guys mapped, and never trim them.

Thanks again

PhantomKira
12-01-2010, 02:02 AM
I just had an evening shooting down Zeros and Bettys in a P-38J. Given, the P-38 has boat loads of gas (and power), but I found myself doing almost exactly what M_Gunz describes. I would dive on my opponent, run by in a dive, pull up in a shallow climb until out of his guns range, then go much steeper, in the vertical, and wait for speed to decay to maybe 200 knots and go over the top with help of combat flaps at 150 or so (a quick turn, without energy loss, as it's stored in the form of altitude gained); then back in at altitude, followed by a quick, slashing attack if everything looks right, if not, maneuver for angle on tail, and attack - repeat. The trick is that I could choose my fight, and get the best possible angle for a shot, before shooting. If it didn't look right, I'd hold fire and blow by, knowing I had him cornered, and had plenty of time to find the perfect sight picture.

Another option for a faster, and more heavily armed and armored aircraft is to run well away, then do a quick 180 turn, either level or with the vertical element, and run back in, head on. This has the advantage of surprise. You can quickly turn the tables and be firing at them before they gain composure enough to return accurate fire. Toss a slight sideslip in and you're all but untrackable to the surprised opponent. You are vulnerable, however, should he prove an accurate shot, as the field has been leveled with minimal angle off, so it's an easy shot for both of you, unless you throw in the sideslip. I used this tactic against the escorting Zeros and got several in head on passes.

Several times, I had Zeros pursuing me. By keeping my speed and not turning (my fight, not theirs), I simply walked away from them and/or out climbed them while maneuvering back toward the bombers. Managed (I think) 8 kills, ran myself out of ammunition (a rare occurrence), and had a total flight time approaching two hours, most of it active fight time.

This should give you some idea as to how (in)frequently I took a shot. If it wasn't perfect, I have gas, and time, I'll hold, and wait for the perfect picture.

Trim, I use elevator trim religiously, always re-trimming for my present speed (or anticipated change in speed), but, of course with a P-38, aileron and rudder trim should not be necessary unless there's a problem, so I don't think I have them mapped, either. I don't stay and fight if I'm injured, and I've never had long flights home, so I see no need to use them.

M_Gunz
12-01-2010, 02:19 AM
Trim changes with speed and power settings but you only need stay close to what it should be. Flying a bit nose-high, just enough for a tiny bit of climb and especially turning nose high are two big energy thieves you want to avoid, they will hurt your acceleration and speed without you probably noticing.

Pretty much any time you find yourself holding the joystick off center for long just to fly right, it is time to trim. You should map pitch trim and if you have a slider or rotary open, set it up for that and practice using it. Another good trim assignment is to a spare 4-way hat. If you have none of those then assign trims to the keyboard arrow keys because you don't need those if you have a joystick do you? Then while you're there, look at all the other useless default keys (like number keys for throttle when you have a throttle) and swap the ones that need Shift/Ctrl/Alt combos just to work over to the single-key strikes just to make life easier. It's well worth the time.

Flying with slip is another gotcherself mistake. When your plane isn't pointing where it's going, that's draggy. Most planes have a ball in a 'smiley tube' (Spitfires have a Slip and Bank gauge with two needles -- way down on the lower right of the main instrument panel, a real pain in sim BTW while P-51's have an extra Slip Ball built into the base of the gunsight which is so good!) that tells you if your plane is flying 'coordinated' or not. Coordination refers to rudder coordinated with stick.
IRL you can feel the pull of uncoordinated flight, but in sims -- uh-uh. Most sims cheat around that and IL2 used to until the unreal side effects of that were noted and then it got fixed... good rudder control makes a big difference since. In time with practice you will know about how much to use without watching The Ball but until then the occasional look especially in turns is needed. Practice -just- flying with no other planes or AA and you can get that lesson down much quicker and be that much better in combat from then on.

What you want is to keep The Ball centered although in hairy on the edge turns, about 1/2 Ball to the inside of the turn is even more stable. And when you're shooting, if the ball isn't centered then your guns are not pointed in the direction you are flying which adds -some, usually not much- sideways motion to your shots. In long range shooting it makes a difference wide enough to miss an airplane.

What else... time not to go by The Ball is any time straight and level going so slow it's hard to keep the wings level, like:

- takeoffs and landings when you are slow and a wing starts to drop, rudder away from the wing that drops instead of using aileron. You know, you haven't quite touched down and kind of floating along and then the plane rolls and crashes? I bet you do! Use the rudder to keep wings level, don't slam it, you don't need to. That's another thing to practice, best done up high so you can recover if you do stall or spin and then try again without a refly.

Only some planes have pilot-adjustable rudder trim (it's adjusted on the ground for example on every 109), fewer have pilot-adjustable aileron trim, and the I-16 has NO pilot adjustable trim!

Pitch/elevator trim is the one you care most about. Rudder IRL is foot operated and sometimes needs fast changes anyway but then in the LW there was a joke that 109 pilots walked in circles because one leg gets stronger than the other and trim is there to adjust control forces.
IRL the stick is moved and trim is used to adjust the force on stick to zero. You can let go and the stick stays where you trimmed it. Due to average game hardware limits, your average joystick is force neutral in the same place always, the center. What IL2 is set up to give you is the FEEL. So when you adjust trim in IL2, the center position of your average joystick represents an actual different position of the control itself, the real stick can be moved just by trimming.

Well, if anyone told you that flying combat in a WWII fighter was easy you can tell em they're full of it!

That should give you more, and more insight to start out with. There's also propwash, the spiral stream of air made by your propellor that does of course affect trim and is what makes takeoffs want to go to one side of the runway. And then there's prop-factor which is much less but wants to turn your plane in steep sustained climbs. And last there is the gyro force that okay, push the nose to the side quickly and see if there isn't a vertical motion resulting as well.

M_Gunz
12-01-2010, 02:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PhantomKira:
I would dive on my opponent, run by in a dive, pull up in a shallow climb until out of his guns range, then go much steeper, in the vertical, and wait for speed to decay to maybe 200 knots and go over the top with help of combat flaps at 150 or so </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

200 knots... you know the P-38 IAS is mph and 200 kts is about 230 mph? That's almost the slowest I'd want to be in a P-38 in combat. 200 mph or 320 kph and I feel compromised doing that.

I hate to let any plane I use get below twice 1 G stall speed and generally want more even over the top. That lets me change course fast enough to jink far enough to avoid getting hit.

If I don't have the speed to go over a vertical loop topping out that fast, I tilt the loop.

DKoor
12-01-2010, 09:48 AM
Here is MY track.

http://www.datafilehost.com/download-268d7723.html

I've been able to gain no advantage and still win.

My humble opinion, although I never flew a real plane, is that this is nothing like the real thing as you would have to be a demi god called All Mighty son of Steady Hand and Cold Nerves IRL to really "use" your aircraft superiority in this domain.

Ba5tard5word
12-01-2010, 10:39 AM
Any AI biplane is tough to shoot down because they're so maneuverable, especially if you're in a faster but less maneuverable plane like the Hurricane. Every time you get on their tail they'll start zipping all over the place and you won't be able to keep up with them in a turn. Then when you bleed off all your speed while trying to turn really hard, they'll jump on your tail until you can get enough speed to get away from them, and a Hurricane's top speed is really not very high at all and will be vulnerable to getting tailed by slower planes.

Basically you need to keep your speed up and make passes on the Glad and not let yourself get tailed, and don't get sucked into a turn battle with him. Try and find him flying in a straight line--the AI will often do this if you aren't anywhere near them--then zoom up behind him and fire before he can start evading and jumping all over the sky.

I would fly a more maneuverable plane than the Hurricane to try this, maybe a Buffalo or an I-16 (though the I-16 is very tricky to maneuver because it constantly wants to flip over and lose control). And if you're having trouble hitting the Gladiator when doing quick passes, practice your gunnery on less manueverable targets like bombers and twin-engine fighters, or monoplanes which aren't super maneuverable or fast, like Hurricanes.

PhantomKira
12-01-2010, 11:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:

200 knots... you know the P-38 IAS is mph and 200 kts is about 230 mph? That's almost the slowest I'd want to be in a P-38 in combat. 200 mph or 320 kph and I feel compromised doing that.

I hate to let any plane I use get below twice 1 G stall speed and generally want more even over the top. That lets me change course fast enough to jink far enough to avoid getting hit.

If I don't have the speed to go over a vertical loop topping out that fast, I tilt the loop. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That it is. Good point. I've also noticed that, for some reason, the airspeed indicator doesn't match the HUD indications, on the rare occasions I happen to use the HUD. For the P-80 they match almost perfectly. Not the P-38. Hum... Odd. Ex: 250mph on the airspeed indicator is 230mph on the hud, 375kmh, and 200IAS respectively.

Trim example: Untrimmed, I find it difficult to persuade the P-38 to go over 300 knots (mph, sir) indicated. Trimmed, it'll do 375 or 400 without a second thought. In that condition, 500's not far away if you're not paying attention. Trim is your friend, but in a clean airplane, if you're not used to a trimmed condition, it can come back to bite you. You may find yourself right on the edge and/or beyond and coming apart in short order.

I know what you mean about getting slow. I've lost control a few times, and it cost me several thousand feet and, of course, any hope in the fight. I've also blasted a Ki-43 when he was in a top of loop stall, so I now know first hand the dangers of near zero energy at the top.

DKoor, you sure that's the right track? I have a Hurri getting nowhere fast and finally spiraling in without being hit... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

DKoor
12-01-2010, 12:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PhantomKira:
DKoor, you sure that's the right track? I have a Hurri getting nowhere fast and finally spiraling in without being hit... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Sorry, those damn TRK's don't work with any PC machine... I replayed it and recorded under NTRK format and uploaded now so I think you wont have probs watching it.

http://www.datafilehost.com/download-43a8055b.html

In short this is the only tactic I really recommend in this setup if we are to use only energy tact.

Anyhow as I said... we may lament here until tomorrow but the truth is that while this combat climb thing works online to a very limited degree, it really isn't recommended tactic while offline at all.
I know, using this tactic I've died harder than Bruce Willis to no avail...

I even retested this thru Autopilot and thus I eliminated the dreaded "pilot" factor... the Hurricane was even caught up by Glads while on slight sideslip (4 degrees) while climbing at best speed IAS 230kph. By using slight banking of 6 degrees results weren't exactly brilliant too... Glads haven't been able to caught Hurri but also they had no prob to hold their ground so that Hurri can't execute any combat maneuvers vs them. Well it can, but wont gain anything apart pure head on Russian roullete.

M_Gunz
12-01-2010, 12:40 PM
I had some emails with Oleg back in the early years. They went far to get the gauges historically right, but I didn't get the details on all.
The slip ball, they even modeled the different ones down to the different fluids used by manufacture. They all have some delay which is why not to always go by the ball, esp in negative G situations and near stall in level flight.

What you describe in the difference between the panel IAS and HUD IAS may be another example of the same and I for one find that kind of exciting as it may show pitot gauge modeling to include position error if not PE and compression which we have been told compression is only partly modeled but never how much/where.
It is possible that the HUD gives CAS and the gauge gives IAS. This also may be true for some planes and not for others as the new model details improved with newer patches/versions while updating was not always done or complete.

I go by the HUD because the view angle is not sufficient to simulate reality. Now I wonder what I have missed! View angle is also why I will use padlock on a plane close by (and it's sometimes a pain getting the right one as focus!) and have one button just to 'glance forward' and let go to snap back on the lock. Hold the forward view too long however and the lock breaks. But to keep locked on one plane is target fixation and very bad practice.
I would like a view set up forward and down to get the instruments and a slice over the dash on button press and return to wherever when I let go. In practice flying I set the view forward and mouse down to see the daggone instruments until my 'touch' is sharpened.

You know if the original IL2 with 4 flyables had not come out at all in 2001 and instead come out this year, it would probably be a hit? IMO Oleg and team delivered too much, too fast, and spoiled a lot of gamers. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Bankoletti
12-01-2010, 12:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DKoor:
Sorry, those damn TRK's don't work with any PC machine... I replayed it and recorded under NTRK format and uploaded now so I think you wont have probs watching it.

http://www.datafilehost.com/download-43a8055b.html
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It appears the file is still corrupted. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/compsmash.gif All I see is you dragging all 4 Gladiators up high to 6 thousand meters, where first pair of Gladiators collide between eachother in fireballs. You then drag the remainimg two Glads around the map some more, when they collide too. 4 Gladiators destroyed without a single bullet fired! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

DKoor
12-01-2010, 12:56 PM
Hehe... I'm fan of very sparse use of available resources http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif .

PhantomKira
12-01-2010, 12:56 PM
Spoiled? Nah, more like showed the rest of the market how it could be and should be. Still, there are some rather obvious things that were left out. Like, I dunno, fuel management? Given the magnitude of the original sim, I think they could have, and should have, gone further into the simulator department with more inventive engine and fuel management etc like some of the mods are just now starting to accomplish. (This had been accomplished in CFS2, in 1999.) You can always dumb down a sim, but it's rather hard to smart it up if the the coding isn't there to begin with. For example, you're not going to find a mod that's capable of adjusting the fuel tanks, and the tank selector, because it's not in the hard code. Ah, that and, of course, mixture. My pet soap box. I'll get off it now. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

DKoor
12-01-2010, 01:02 PM
I have no regrets about IL2. I'm very well aware of its shortcomings, but it has served us very well for this decade http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif .
I hope SOW to be every bit of what IL2 was with a prospect of correcting all big IL2's shortcomings... any more than that and I will be really surprised in pig+mud kind of way http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif.