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Vanderstok
04-23-2009, 01:17 AM
In a campaign I'm making -set in the desert- I'd like to include a training mission on how to dive bomb with a P-40. However, I'm not sure what the best technique is myself, so I googled around and found this account of a P-47 pilot:

"Standardly, we would cross the front lines at 10,000 feet, then descend to 5,000 on reaching an assigned target area. Then we flew parallel to the road or railroad tracks, establishing a 30-degree from vertical line of sight.
Upon spotting tanks or a train, bombs were armed and we executed a split-S maneuver as the target passed beneath the wing's leading edge. Thus a near vertical dive - like the stoop of a hawk - was established. We would center our gun reticules on the target and release our bombs at about 2,500 feet, with immediate recovery from the dive."

I have tried to do this in the game and failed. If the target "passed beneath the wing's leading edge" it is still much too far away to start a proper dive. So, assuming you don't use external views, how the heck do you know when the target is below you and in the right position to roll over and dive with say a 60 degree angle? Remember, the P-40 doesn't have dive-brakes, so in reality a 90 degree dive was very dangerous as the plane would pick up speed quickly and the stick forces would be very high when pulling out...

Vanderstok
04-23-2009, 01:17 AM
In a campaign I'm making -set in the desert- I'd like to include a training mission on how to dive bomb with a P-40. However, I'm not sure what the best technique is myself, so I googled around and found this account of a P-47 pilot:

"Standardly, we would cross the front lines at 10,000 feet, then descend to 5,000 on reaching an assigned target area. Then we flew parallel to the road or railroad tracks, establishing a 30-degree from vertical line of sight.
Upon spotting tanks or a train, bombs were armed and we executed a split-S maneuver as the target passed beneath the wing's leading edge. Thus a near vertical dive - like the stoop of a hawk - was established. We would center our gun reticules on the target and release our bombs at about 2,500 feet, with immediate recovery from the dive."

I have tried to do this in the game and failed. If the target "passed beneath the wing's leading edge" it is still much too far away to start a proper dive. So, assuming you don't use external views, how the heck do you know when the target is below you and in the right position to roll over and dive with say a 60 degree angle? Remember, the P-40 doesn't have dive-brakes, so in reality a 90 degree dive was very dangerous as the plane would pick up speed quickly and the stick forces would be very high when pulling out...

julian265
04-23-2009, 03:53 AM
keep doing little rolls to check where it is, or just judge it off other objects that you can see.

Xiolablu3
04-23-2009, 05:12 AM
I just get somewhere near to the target and above, then dive down onto it, aiming just a little above the target with my crosshair, then release the bomb.

Its a lot about instinct, but I have about 50% direct hit rate with this method.

Vanderstok
04-23-2009, 05:37 AM
Yes, that is more or less my current method and it requires a lot of practise to estimate where to aim.

However, I would like to know of a method that allows for consistent accuracy. So, given a certain altitude and speed, when the target is seen in relation to a certain point of reference on the airframe, you count to x seconds then roll over, aim and you should be in a 60 degree dive. Drop the bomb at altitude xxx and you will know exactly what the lead should be when looking through the bomb sight.

... or something like that.

general_kalle
04-23-2009, 06:06 AM
dont...
fighters aint made for dive bombing.
got for 40-50 degrees dive. aim the gunsight slightly above the target. drop as close as you dare with your delay. pull up rapidly but dont stall it.... and dont pull up too late either.

Vanderstok
04-23-2009, 06:24 AM
Yes, well 60 deg is also considered dive-bombing by many. Here's an abstract from the P-40 pilot's manual about dive-bombing:

"Come over the target at 4500 feet, pull up and slow the aircraft to 150 mph. Trim for high speed, so not much left rudder is necessary in the dive. Roll over and start your dive. Don't dive faster than 350 mph. Put the bead of the gunsight on the center of the target as you dive. The angle of the dive should not be greater than 70 deg, or smaller than 45 deg. Just as you start the pullout, release the bomb. While in training, pull out at 2000 ft above the earth, never less than 1000ft. Don't horse-back on the stick or you might get into a high speed stall."

Again, not very precise: "just as you pullout, release the bomb...". I'm beginning to think dive bombing with WWII fighters just wasn't very accurate at all. That's why they probably opted for skip-bombing when precision was needed as for hitting ships...

idonno
04-23-2009, 08:31 AM
"Then we flew parallel to the road or railroad tracks, establishing a 30-degree from vertical line of sight."

This means they were looking down 60 degrees at the target. If you do this, you will be diving at 60 degrees when you roll in.

FlatSpinMan
04-23-2009, 07:19 PM
Looking forward to the campaign. Haven't read "A good clean fight" but recently read "Piece of Cake" and was absolutely smitten.

ImpStarDuece
04-23-2009, 07:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Vanderstok:
I'm beginning to think dive bombing with WWII fighters just wasn't very accurate at all. That's why they probably opted for skip-bombing when precision was needed as for hitting ships... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Correct.

Under combat conditions, the RAF found that the average error for Typhoon dive bombers was about 65-70 meters.

In the lead up to Normandy, post bombing assessments of fixed sites in France found that dive bombing pilots without intense training could miss the target by over 300 meters. This led the RAF to streaming its Typhoon squadrons into either dedicated dive bombers or dedicated rocket carriers.

WTE_Galway
04-23-2009, 07:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Vanderstok:
While in training, pull out at 2000 ft above the earth, never less than 1000ft. Don't horse-back on the stick or you might get into a high speed stall.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Presumably they mean a dynamic stall. Are dynamic stalls modeled in the IL2 FM ?

M_Gunz
04-24-2009, 01:11 AM
Stall speed is higher under G's if that's what you mean.

Vanderstok
04-24-2009, 01:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">...average error for Typhoon dive bombers was about 65-70 meters... dive bombing pilots without intense training could miss the target by over 300 meters... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for the info! Not much use trying to hit a tank then....

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Are dynamic stalls modeled in the IL2 FM ? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Dynamic stall? No I don't think so. Accelerated stall (G &gt; 1.0) Yes, definitely.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Haven't read "A good clean fight" but recently read "Piece of Cake" and was absolutely smitten. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You will love Piece of Cake as well. It's not just flying though, there is a lot of SAS -behind the lines- action and also a storyline from the German/Italian viewpoint. As you may have learned from the previous book: don't get too attached to the characters though..;

The WW1 books are also excellent: "Hornet's sting", "Goshawk squadron" (a bit dark) and I have just ordered "War Story".

Leady-450
04-24-2009, 02:01 AM
"Presumably they mean a dynamic stall. Are dynamic stalls modeled in the IL2 FM ?"

RAF typhoon pilots used to refer to the effect as Squashing where the wing buldozes through the air at a very high angle of attack. And yes it is modeled in Il2. Hop into a Zero with a bomb and drop from a 60deg dive at 200m. Now hop into a Mig-3 and try the same, instant smoking crater http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Cheers

Leady

Vanderstok
04-24-2009, 02:28 AM
Are you sure? I thought dynamic stall was a temporary effect: a vortex over the wing, caused by a rapid change of the angle of attack that produces extra lift. Mostly associated with helicopter rotors and wings of small insects (bees etc).

squareusr
04-24-2009, 04:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Leady-450:
Now hop into a Mig-3 and try the same, instant smoking crater http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Heh, Mig 3, the only plane that can climb faster than it can safely descend... how do they land those things? on special mountain airstrips??? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

DKoor
04-24-2009, 05:07 PM
For me dive bombing really works only in bombers with dive brakes, i.e. dedicated dive bombers. In all others it's a tough to hit the target at best... at worst I turn into a lawn dart.http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

WTE_Galway
04-24-2009, 07:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Vanderstok:
Are you sure? I thought dynamic stall was a temporary effect: a vortex over the wing, caused by a rapid change of the angle of attack that produces extra lift. Mostly associated with helicopter rotors and wings of small insects (bees etc). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats the one.

It also occurs in real life fixed wing aircraft in high speed dives with sudden control movements ... if you yank the stick back too quickly the wing temporarily stalls and the aircraft just keeps going straight ahead ... usually into the ground.

I was taught to always ease back on the stick slowly when exiting a steep dive. Its apparently a significant cause of CFIT.

Vanderstok
04-25-2009, 12:23 PM
I have just released the campaign. The dive-bombing mini tutorial is included!

Download here:

http://mission4today.com/index...file=details&id=3677 (http://mission4today.com/index.php?name=Downloads&file=details&id=3677)

TS_Sancho
04-25-2009, 01:26 PM
Here ya go
http://www.simhq.com/_air9/air_287a.html

and

http://www.darts-page.com/

Watch Darts tutorial on ground attack although all his stuff is good.