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marcCS
08-13-2005, 11:16 PM
Were Bf-109F-4s still around on German squadrons on Eastern Front in 1943 or were they quickly phased out by 109G-2s and G-6s?

marcCS
08-13-2005, 11:16 PM
Were Bf-109F-4s still around on German squadrons on Eastern Front in 1943 or were they quickly phased out by 109G-2s and G-6s?

Stackhouse25th
08-13-2005, 11:50 PM
i imagine so, i wouldnt want to fly an F4...

LeadSpitter_
08-13-2005, 11:54 PM
their were still many fredrichs around in good numbers during 1944-45, still not compaired to 85% of the luftwaffe in 44-45 which was the 109g6 and fw190a8. g10 g14 k4 dora were less then 10%, they used pretty much everything left me410s 210s bf110s. It would be nice if oleg focused on the germans a bit and got us some more twin engines 210 ju88 do217 and he177s 4 engine bombers flyable same for all nations planes. 2 twin engine flyables and 1 4 engine flyable for each nation.

I mean they have the code for up to 8 engine select but all we have is the tb3? Kinda a waste of coding.



the finnish airforce had mainly g2 g6s in 44-45 as well.

3.JG51_BigBear
08-14-2005, 12:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
the finnish airforce had mainly g2 g6s in 44-45 as well. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

They were spanking brand new compared to the Brewster's they were still flying in 44.

Xiolablu3
08-14-2005, 12:04 AM
I would think that ther would still be some around. (not that I know for sure)

They arent going to throw the old F4's away , are they??

Remember there were a lot of Spit V's around on D-Day thats 3 years later than they came out.

csThor
08-14-2005, 12:43 AM
Well Lead ... I doubt your % values. Especially in the second half of 1944 the G-6s would be phased out in the west in favor of G-14, G-10 or G-14/AS. In the East the pilot caliber was different and the G-6s were still quite useful (and only in October 1944 the first G-14s appeared in JG 51).

LeadSpitter_
08-14-2005, 12:48 AM
csthor, go look at aircraft numbers built. Then look at squadrons in 44-45 and ac used. add up the ammount of g10 g15 k4 doras vs the ammount of g6 g2 f4s 190a8s your answer is there.

csThor
08-14-2005, 04:07 AM
The produced numbers are not useful when it comes to determining the OOB. Take a look at http://www.ww2.dk - at the bottom of each page of a Jagdgeschwader you'll see the plane statistics as far as they have survived.

I have taken a look at all representative units and the tables show that over the course of three months (August to October 1944) all major western front units phased out their G-6s for G-14s, G-10s or G-14/AS. The Eastern Front units made that step later (October - December) and were slower.

The second question is the exact "R├╝stzustand" of the "G-6" - a G-6 of mid-1944 is not the G-6 of mid-1943. Was it a AM subtype (predecessor of G-14)? Which engine was used? Such are the questions that need to be asked.

jurinko
08-14-2005, 04:08 AM
Our Slovak 13th Staffel in JG52 (Kuban area) replaced Emils for Friedrichs in late 1942 and flew Friedrichs until March 1943, then getting G-2 and G-4. I know that Hungarians flew F-4 even in Kursk battle.

Vipez-
08-14-2005, 04:29 AM
Answer to original question, yes F-4 was still in use in 1943, though beeing phased out, but it was operating with higher boost.. 109F-4 with 1.42ata (cleared in 1942) and 109F-4/Z with nitrous injection. Perfomance would be very close to 109G-2 with 1.3ata..

LEXX_Luthor
08-14-2005, 04:50 AM
*bump*

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">109F-4/Z with nitrous injection. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
That would be nice to have.

geetarman
08-14-2005, 09:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by csThor:
The produced numbers are not useful when it comes to determining the OOB. Take a look at http://www.ww2.dk - at the bottom of each page of a Jagdgeschwader you'll see the plane statistics as far as they have survived.

I have taken a look at all representative units and the tables show that over the course of three months (August to October 1944) all major western front units phased out their G-6s for G-14s, G-10s or G-14/AS. The Eastern Front units made that step later (October - December) and were slower.

The second question is the exact "R├╝stzustand" of the "G-6" - a G-6 of mid-1944 is not the G-6 of mid-1943. Was it a AM subtype (predecessor of G-14)? Which engine was used? Such are the questions that need to be asked. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thor, can you give your best estimate of the numbers of different types of 109's used in the West, say between Oct. 44 and May 45? I'm talking percentages here.

alert_1
08-14-2005, 09:46 AM
In the game, F4 is outclased as soon as '42 by LaGG 3/35 and La5. No one is flying it online in '42 planeset, maybe because is not only slower then G2, but surprisingly also worse dogfighter...

3.JG51_BigBear
08-14-2005, 10:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by alert_1:
In the game, F4 is outclased as soon as '42 by LaGG 3/35 and La5. No one is flying it online in '42 planeset, maybe because is not only slower then G2, but surprisingly also worse dogfighter... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The online servers never follow what happened historically. In 42 most of the modern fighters in the Red Airforce were still Migs, P-39s, early Yaks and Lagg 3s. The more advanced Yaks and Las were beginning to increase in number but they still made up a very small part of the fighter force and the quality of Russian pilots was still very low in 42. Online players fly the more advanced fighters in disproportionate numbers to their real life counterparts and the average skill of players that fly blue and red is about equal.

csThor
08-14-2005, 10:18 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by geetarman:
Thor, can you give your best estimate of the numbers of different types of 109's used in the West, say between Oct. 44 and May 45? I'm talking percentages here. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hardly. At the address I've given you can check the strength reports until December 1944 - for later statistics aren't available. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Stigler_9_JG52
08-14-2005, 10:52 AM
so, the answer is, there were some Friedrichs around in penny packs, but they were not representative of LW equippage at that time. That'd be some flavor of G6. So, if you're designing a campaign or a DF server, you wouldn't assign it to have a lot of importance.

I find that many designers in this community look for the instance of the rarity of a particular aircraft as their "permission" to place it in a planeset with no limits on its use. If your server is set up so players are NOT constrained, you should eschew using more advanced planes (of which only a few were available) and use the more representative models. Otherwise, people will just choose "the best" models and your situation will not well represent the era you're attempting to simulate.

If, on the other hand, your server is "micro-controlled" (I recall one where you couldn't choose certain types unless you had already earned a certain number of points or kills, that were 'recorded' in their server stat bank; an interesting idea!) you can make it hard to get the new "ueber types" that might have appeared in your setup in limited numbers.

LeLv44_Mangrove
08-14-2005, 11:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by 3.JG51_BigBear:
[QUOTE]
the finnish airforce had mainly g2 g6s in 44-45 as well. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not to mention the Blackburn Ripons from 1926 which were in use in 1944 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Daiichidoku
08-14-2005, 11:33 AM
even in 44, Emils were around

LW were forced to use pilots still in advanced fighter training, for real operations

in spite of numbers of newers 109s abounding, these students were to use the Emils because thats what they were training on, and knew the aircraft

Xiolablu3
08-14-2005, 05:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by alert_1:
In the game, F4 is outclased as soon as '42 by LaGG 3/35 and La5. No one is flying it online in '42 planeset, maybe because is not only slower then G2, but surprisingly also worse dogfighter... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats sad really, the Freidrich was supposed to be a great dogfighter, read German pilots accounts, most who fly the 109 thru the war state that the F was by far the best dogfighter and best handling of all Me109's.

The 109 arguably reached its peak design with the F model.

Kocur_
08-14-2005, 05:30 PM
Remember German "recyckling" of fighters. It doesnt take much to rebuild a F-4 into G-2 or G-6. New engine and landing gear would basically do. That would speed up process of phasing out F-4's.

Christos_swc
08-14-2005, 06:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by alert_1:
In the game, F4 is outclased as soon as '42 by LaGG 3/35 and La5. No one is flying it online in '42 planeset, maybe because is not only slower then G2, but surprisingly also worse dogfighter... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats sad really, the Freidrich was supposed to be a great dogfighter, read German pilots accounts, most who fly the 109 thru the war state that the F was by far the best dogfighter and best handling of all Me109's.

The 109 arguably reached its peak design with the F model. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What do you mean reached its peak design?
That's assuming manouvrability is the most important thing.
Messerschmitt desided to finally sacrifice handling for outright performance.
He made the right call and as events proved ,that was the way to go.
He fitted a much more powerful engine to the 109 that of course added a weight penalty.
This allowed to add heavier armament that was necessary to bring down the heavier targets Germans were starting to face such as the very well armoured Il-2s.
At the same time speed did improve.
As experience later in the war proved, speed, armor, power of manouvre was what won air battles, including high alt performance.
The G-6 was not as well handling as the F series but climbed faster, run faster, dived faster and had heavier armament.
It was a better fighter than the F-4 unless you were a Jap or Italian pilot who only seemed to care for handling.
Of course, they too had to change their views as the war went on.

Kurfurst__
08-14-2005, 06:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by marcCS:
Were Bf-109F-4s still around on German squadrons on Eastern Front in 1943 or were they quickly phased out by 109G-2s and G-6s? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well yes and no, more on that later. First ignore LS, he is only guessing, and badly.

The 109G quite quickly replaced the 109F already in 1942. I`d guess there were remaining ones around, our Hungarian boys used the F-4s for some time, receiving them later than the Germans when they started to retire it.

I was interested in the subject, and made my own research using the ww2.dk site Thor has pointed to, and an Excell table, putting all German fighter units in June 1943 into a table. It turned out interesting results. I don`t have it handy, but I remember it quite well.

First, the vast majority of the aircraft was 109Gs, these being about half-half of G-2/G-4 types and G-6s, the latter`s % increasing by the end of the month (it was introduced only in Feb43, and already made up ~50%, so you can guess things happened quite quickly in the LW). Altogether, around 900-1000 109Gs.

There were 109Fs, and even 109E`s around, but quite clearly from the statistics, these were used well behind the frontlines to prepeare young pilots for the 109 G : there are several hundred of such E and F aircraft, but there are losses only to non-enemy action (ie. training accidents) and none or just a handful due to to enemy related action. Quite clearly, most these older planes were not used in combat anymore.

Generally the older models were replaced very quickly in the LW. The 109F only appeared in 1941 but in that year it totally phased out the 109E. Or, for example, the LW was having almost only 109G-6 in production until mid-1944, but by Jan 1945, only about 70 out of 1400 frontline Bf 109s were G-6s, the rest being G-14, G-10 and K-4.

Xiolablu3
08-14-2005, 06:39 PM
Lol why do you think I put 'arguably'

To cater for people like you.

You have obvously flown 109's in the war and know a bit more than 'some other' Luftwaffe pilots whose accounts I have read.

The general (remember that this means not all) LW pilots consensus from whose accounts I have read state that after the F the 109 just got bulkier and heavier with bigger guns. Their favourite model was the 109F.


I am not a 109 expert so please dont argue with me any more. I am just regurgitating the LW pilots accounts that I have read.

Please read one of these accounts for yourself and argue with him,

http://109lair.hobbyvista.com/articles/pilots/stigler/stigler.htm

p1ngu666
08-14-2005, 07:27 PM
pretty much any 109 pilot will say the f series is there favourite.

and the g6 was closely related to the g10,g14, infact i think g6's where updated in repair stations and similer.

not sure but the f series with higher boost may well outperform the g6. may do on default aswell.

F was intended tobe the last update to 109, then they would produce 209 or 309, but various reasons it never happened. g series was a update to make them though till these newer designs (i mean the early g's)

Abbuzze
08-15-2005, 02:03 AM
The 109F was the "peak" of the 109 development like the IX for the Spitfire, later versions were heavier, but more powerfull, weight increase leads to a worse wingload, more and more bumbs to the wings and the fuselage, because of more powerfull engines and stronger weapons.

Nevertheless, in 1945 all pilots would like to have a 109K or a Spit XIV.
This perfect balanced midwar planes are nice, but in the end of the war power and speed was live.

Christos_swc
08-15-2005, 07:52 AM
No need to read your references, it's highly unlikely you've done 1/10th the reading concerning the 109 than I have.
Noone disputed the superior handling characteristics of the F series, did you really read my post or what?
Pilots always liked an ac that handled better and disliked one that didn't , but on the battlefield, the performance of the F-4 was beginning to be inadequate.
The G-6 was a step forward performance wise and in many other aspects I've already mentioned.
The British who captured a 190 and tested it raved about it's handling qualities.
How would that fair against a much heavier but much more powerful late war 190 that eclipsed it in every area but had it's handling qualities deteriorated by weight?
Were would you think the designers peaked?
Which one was better?
Mind you the K-4 didn't handle as well as the F series either(according to your references too then).
Sure you said "arguably" but didn't 'allow' any arguments?

p1ngu666
08-15-2005, 08:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Abbuzze:
The 109F was the "peak" of the 109 development like the IX for the Spitfire, later versions were heavier, but more powerfull, weight increase leads to a worse wingload, more and more bumbs to the wings and the fuselage, because of more powerfull engines and stronger weapons.

Nevertheless, in 1945 all pilots would like to have a 109K or a Spit XIV.
This perfect balanced midwar planes are nice, but in the end of the war power and speed was live. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

the spit II, V and if u had the chance VIII where teh favs (VIII was just abit better than IX) XIV was a favourite with a few, from what ive seen at airshows its the most effectless spit in a climb. tigercat is good too :O

Vuco1
08-15-2005, 12:34 PM
F version was produced in only single series of little over 2000 planes and that is just some 15% to 16% of all 109 produced (back to the % problem http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ).
Personally I think there wasn't so munch chance of some great number of them flying in that period, if we think on combat missions, not training.
Many would have been written of in combat by then, and probably even more by landing undercarriage failures which troubled the 109 through all his versions (except maybe K?) Also many F-s were used in weapon testing or on some further development work on whole 109 series.
But hey, Luftwaffe already then was struggling to keep numbers whit allied air forces so, probably they were throwing in combat everything they had, including the outdated-but-still-uber planes like Bf 109 F-s.
(I'm thinking on F we have here in IL2/FB/PF.)

Xiolablu3
08-15-2005, 11:02 PM
Me 109 F:
"It was the 109 F. This was my beloved aircraft. It was the first aircraft with the round wing tips, no struts in the back, 601 engine. Excellent, and not too overloaded. You know, later on they put in this, and put in this, and put in this. The aircraft became heavier, but not this one. The F was my ideal aircraft. And it had a very good weapon set. We had a 20 millimeter gun through the propellor, and two 15 millimeters (actually 2 x 7,92 mms) on top of the engine. It was enough."
- Major Gunther Rall. German fighter ace, NATO general, Commander of the German Air Force. 275 victories. Source: Lecture by general Rall.

Me 109 F/G:
"The F version was my favorite. It was not nearly as sluggish in the controls as the G version was. It was best suited as a dogfighter. The G6 however was better at higher altitudes and had a higher ceiling than the F's.
The 190 was over all a better a/c than the 109, but again the pilots liked the 109's climb and simply the fact that by the time they had flown 400 combat missions the 109 had become very very familiar to them. Fanz Stigler liked the 109G as well and also enjoyed flying the K-4. The K-4, he said was very much like the G yet could leave all other fighters behind in climb. In control feel he said the K felt identical to the G. He described on many occasions where they would just bank away from the fighters and climb away from them. He also flew a Spitfire once, saying that he liked the a/c."
- Franz Stigler, German fighter ace. 28 victories. Interview of Franz Stigler.