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View Full Version : Hurricane outmanouvres an Me109, real story.



The.Tyke
07-26-2010, 02:45 AM
I'm reading the excellent book, 'HURRICANE Victor of The Battle Of Britain' by Leo McKinstry.
In the forward there is an excellent account by Hurrican pilot Morley Mower in North Africa. Having just destroyed one Stuka on the ground at an axis airfield, he was en-route to another when he got bounced by 3 Me 109s.
His account reminds me of many times on IL-2, in very similar situations. BUT MY LIFE WAS NOT AT RISK !! Here's his account.

Morley -Mower kept tightening up his turn at the lowest possible height, the Hurricane's airframe juddering slightly in the manoeuvre. Suddenly there was a flash of canon fire , 'the shells kicking up dust outside my path and behind my tail'. But the German attack failed. The Me 109 flew off, only to be replaced by a second one. 'He came in slower and closer to the ground, holding his fire'. This is what I feared most, that one of them might get inside me momentarily and blast my tail off'. With Morley-Mower continuing to turn frantically, the second Me 109 kept drawing close. 'I was madly tempted to do something , to straighten out and turn the other way, anything to break the pattern. No! No! No! Lead us not into temptation. As soon as I levelled out he'd get me. I'd be a perfect sitter, big in his sights with no deflection for a second or two as I changed direction and his canons would rake my fuel tanks and fry me'. Morley-Mower then had a flash of inspiration. If he put down 20 degrees of flap, he would reduce the stalling speed and therefore be able to tighten his turn further. Just as his left hand reached for the flap lever, the stalking Me109 pilot opened fire. 'A real firework display this time, the shells striking the earth behind me and bouncing over a wide area'. Then something extraordinary happened. 'I took my eye off his aircraft, and when I looked back, he'd disappeared. One moment he was there , trying to shoot me down, the next instant he was gone. As I continued on my circular path I saw a line of explosions and sheets of flame'. What had happened was that the Messerschmitt had gone into a high speed stall, plummeting into the ground from about 100 feet in 'a wild skid of dust, flame and assorted aircraft parts. Body parts too, I imagined, poor bugger !' Drenched in sweat, Morley-Mower climbed into cloud and set course for base.

The.Tyke
07-26-2010, 02:45 AM
I'm reading the excellent book, 'HURRICANE Victor of The Battle Of Britain' by Leo McKinstry.
In the forward there is an excellent account by Hurrican pilot Morley Mower in North Africa. Having just destroyed one Stuka on the ground at an axis airfield, he was en-route to another when he got bounced by 3 Me 109s.
His account reminds me of many times on IL-2, in very similar situations. BUT MY LIFE WAS NOT AT RISK !! Here's his account.

Morley -Mower kept tightening up his turn at the lowest possible height, the Hurricane's airframe juddering slightly in the manoeuvre. Suddenly there was a flash of canon fire , 'the shells kicking up dust outside my path and behind my tail'. But the German attack failed. The Me 109 flew off, only to be replaced by a second one. 'He came in slower and closer to the ground, holding his fire'. This is what I feared most, that one of them might get inside me momentarily and blast my tail off'. With Morley-Mower continuing to turn frantically, the second Me 109 kept drawing close. 'I was madly tempted to do something , to straighten out and turn the other way, anything to break the pattern. No! No! No! Lead us not into temptation. As soon as I levelled out he'd get me. I'd be a perfect sitter, big in his sights with no deflection for a second or two as I changed direction and his canons would rake my fuel tanks and fry me'. Morley-Mower then had a flash of inspiration. If he put down 20 degrees of flap, he would reduce the stalling speed and therefore be able to tighten his turn further. Just as his left hand reached for the flap lever, the stalking Me109 pilot opened fire. 'A real firework display this time, the shells striking the earth behind me and bouncing over a wide area'. Then something extraordinary happened. 'I took my eye off his aircraft, and when I looked back, he'd disappeared. One moment he was there , trying to shoot me down, the next instant he was gone. As I continued on my circular path I saw a line of explosions and sheets of flame'. What had happened was that the Messerschmitt had gone into a high speed stall, plummeting into the ground from about 100 feet in 'a wild skid of dust, flame and assorted aircraft parts. Body parts too, I imagined, poor bugger !' Drenched in sweat, Morley-Mower climbed into cloud and set course for base.

Treetop64
07-26-2010, 03:39 AM
Nice story.

Though it's common knowledge that the Hurri had a tighter turning radius than the 109s. The 109s, with their much higher wing loading, were faster, though.

M_Gunz
07-26-2010, 05:05 AM
Jumped by three 109's over their own ground and made it home to tell of it! Even got a maneuver-kill on one! M-M was one lucky dog that day!

I've posted another BoB account here by a Polish pilot who used knowledge of relative turn performance at different altitudes to drag a 109 in pursuit down below 4000 ft and win the circle fight there. Don't try it above 8,000 ft!

Blue_5
07-26-2010, 06:13 AM
Someone will no doubt point out that the Hurri, like the Spit, had binary flaps (up or down) so 20 degrees would be impossible. However, it looks like that's a narrative error and he simply meant putting down landing flaps to achieve the same affect

Bremspropeller
07-26-2010, 06:41 AM
Lucky to survive.

Landing flaps are there for one thing and one thing only: landing.
Especially those 90 (?) degree-flaps of the Hurricane.

The chance of getting behind the power-curve and just plunging into the ground are about 10 times as high as making it back alive - unless you're at high speed and you're lust looking for high drag.

JtD
07-26-2010, 09:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Blue_5:
Someone will no doubt point out that the Hurri, like the Spit, had binary flaps (up or down) so 20 degrees would be impossible. However, it looks like that's a narrative error and he simply meant putting down landing flaps to achieve the same affect </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, the game is wrong here, flaps on the Hurricane could be set to any degree. Hope to see this, among other things, fixed in 4.11.

Sillius_Sodus
07-26-2010, 10:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JtD:
No, the game is wrong here, flaps on the Hurricane could be set to any degree. Hope to see this, among other things, fixed in 4.11. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That could make the Hurricane quite dangerous opponent. I don't even want to think of what this would do to the Spitfire http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif (I don't use flaps on a slider/axis)

horseback
07-26-2010, 10:25 AM
Lost in all the discussion of whether the Hurri had fully adjustable flaps is the reality of the Messrschmitt pilot's fatality: he took it right to the edge to get "the shot", and the recoil of his guns taking that shot is probably what took away that critical bit of airspeed he needed to stay airborne less than 50m above the ground.

Considering how lightly armed the 109 F/G was and where its armament was located, that's kind of sobering. The game we play doesn't seem to model gun recoil to that degree.

cheers

horseback

K_Freddie
07-26-2010, 12:00 PM
You see, using flaps at the right moment, or going lo-n-slow, is not that bad after all.

And of course a bit of imagination always helps
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

M_Gunz
07-26-2010, 12:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by The.Tyke:
Just as his left hand reached for the flap lever, the stalking Me109 pilot opened fire. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So he pulled flaps or was about to and then there was no need? Does reach equal did? Does imagine equal assume?

K_Freddie
07-26-2010, 01:46 PM
Probably didn't have to pull flaps as the hurri can out-turn the ME at that alt, but he had no way of knowing the ME situation.

Maybe the tighter turning resulting from the flaps lowering, helped 'entrap' the axis pilot into a grave mistake.

Although the exact timing of 'micro-second' events will never be known.. but in either event his timing looked to be perfect.

JtD
07-26-2010, 02:10 PM
Flaps lever is on the lower right of the cockpit, btw. About right of the right knee. Good performance if you can reach that with your left hand. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Gunfire can influence the turning performance of a plane considerably for several reasons. For instance, on the Hurricane, the difference between sealed gun ports (as in guns hadn't been used) and open gun ports (as in have been fired once), has been measured to be in the range of 0.1 (that's quite a bit) as far as maximum lift coefficient is concerned. Now this of course does not does not apply directly to the 109, not even to the E model with wing cannons. However, as we know from the game, really pushing for a firing solution can cloud your better judgment when riding the stall, and firing does distract a bit. I have seen plenty of folks who've been trying to just gain that last degree in turn they needed, only to spin out of the turn.

But it's always tough to be reminded how young folks wasted their lives, or got wasted.

DKoor
07-26-2010, 02:23 PM
I guess at this altitude someone always has to end up in the dirt.

M_Gunz
07-26-2010, 03:46 PM
Right down close to the ground you -can- get loads more turbulence than even 3x or 4x treetop level. The 109 might have simply crossed wake turbulence from the hard turning Hurricane or even from the previous 109's passage.

M_Gunz
07-26-2010, 03:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JtD:
Flaps lever is on the lower right of the cockpit, btw. About right of the right knee. Good performance if you can reach that with your left hand. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I doubt that he pulled flaps and didn't mention that after stating the rest. His hand just got to the lever (obviously did not want to take his right hand off the stick) when the shots were made. Flaps don't pop down instantly nor does the plane change course significantly in the same instant at least IRL, he was out of the line of fire already.

Good spot on where the flaps lever is, same as with the Spitfire IIRC, a PITA place to put it as that one British pilot noted in the often-quoted video comparing the Spit to the 109 especially the cockpits. In the Spitfire there is a switching of hands during takeoff not required in the 109.

Kwiatos
07-26-2010, 05:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Originally posted by JtD:


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Originally posted by Blue_5:
Someone will no doubt point out that the Hurri, like the Spit, had binary flaps (up or down) so 20 degrees would be impossible. However, it looks like that's a narrative error and he simply meant putting down landing flaps to achieve the same affect </div></BLOCKQUOTE>



No, the game is wrong here, flaps on the Hurricane could be set to any degree. Hope to see this, among other things, fixed in 4.11.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmm i checked Hurricane Manual and other data and it seemed that Hurricane have more degree regulations of flap positions then Spitfire( not only full open -landing position and close).

So it looks that in IL2 it is wrong.

I will have to change these thing at least in UP 2.01 for new Hurricanes and make at least 3 posistion flaps.

WTE_Galway
07-26-2010, 05:47 PM
Even with partial extension they are the wrong type of flap to deploy for any length of time in a combat situation you would lose too much E. I suspect it would be a last resort emergency maneuver.

However partial flaps would be very handy in other tricky situations including ground attacks and crosswind landings (in real life crosswind landings are safer with less flaps).

K_Freddie
07-26-2010, 06:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WTE_Galway:
(in real life crosswind landings are safer with less flaps). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Higher speed landings means more control..
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

M2morris
07-26-2010, 07:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by K_Freddie:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WTE_Galway:
(in real life crosswind landings are safer with less flaps). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Higher speed landings means more control..
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So true.
Thats why a wheel landing is always better IMO; not a three-point. The idea is to get the plane down the safest way possible. Heck with trying to impress people.
Bad P51 landing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...xLAg&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iY5d81TxLAg&feature=related)

WTE_Galway
07-26-2010, 08:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M2morris:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by K_Freddie:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WTE_Galway:
(in real life crosswind landings are safer with less flaps). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Higher speed landings means more control..
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So true.
Thats why a wheel landing is always better IMO; not a three-point. The idea is to get the plane down the safest way possible. Heck with trying to impress people.
Bad P51 landing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...xLAg&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iY5d81TxLAg&feature=related) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


yeah ...

in terms of scraping wings this one is worse though http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

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AndyJWest
07-26-2010, 09:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">...this one is worse though http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
What the... An aborted takeoff? A messed-up landing? I can't see how you could do either and end up like that...

M_Gunz
07-27-2010, 12:07 AM
The slower landing is less likely to bounce or get you killed in the case where something happens like a wheel getting caught in a hole or a flat or a leg collapsing on TD, those kind of things you much generally get in games. There are good solid reasons why pilots do like the things they do besides showing off, you can feel them in every real landing when you're in a front seat. IME, each real landing just in the 2nd seat is worth more than any online sortie I've played yet.

dangerlaef
07-27-2010, 12:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AndyJWest:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">...this one is worse though http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
What the... An aborted takeoff? A messed-up landing? I can't see how you could do either and end up like that... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The plane was supposed to land on a river at Tamarindo (Costa Rica) for a sequence of the movie "Endless Summer II". After landing, the right pontoon caught the water, and jerked the aircraft to the right. Overcorrecting, the pilot put the left float into the water, and the aircraft swerved to that side. He applied full take-off power to get the aircraft back into the air, but it careered from the river onto the beach, where it ground-looped and came to a stop. No one was injured.

WTE_Galway
07-27-2010, 12:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
The slower landing is less likely to bounce or get you killed in the case where something happens like a wheel getting caught in a hole or a flat or a leg collapsing on TD, those kind of things you much generally get in games. There are good solid reasons why pilots do like the things they do besides showing off, you can feel them in every real landing when you're in a front seat. IME, each real landing just in the 2nd seat is worth more than any online sortie I've played yet. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have never flown a tail dragger but my understanding is you can still 3 point a flapless landing as both Vso and Vref are higher not just Vref. Also without flaps even though Vref is higher there is less lift and hence less bounce.

However regardless of that the higher airspeed does give the controls more authority which seems to help in crosswinds.

The main difference is the lower approach angle meaning considerably less visibility and almost no flare as you are already virtually in landing configuration. Speed control is tricky as you often approach with minimal throttle and the only way to wipe off any excess speed/height is a slideslip. If you do hit the fence too hot there is also a tendency to float forever in ground effect providing any spectators with a nice flyby http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

A good example in game is the Avia B534 which has no flaps so all landings are flap-less.

The Avia stalls at roughly 100kmh giving a Vref of about 130 kmh. Holding 130 kmh requires a shallow approach and no throttle but hit the fence at 130 kmh and you get a perfect 3 pointer almost every time. Less than that and there is a good chance you will crash and burn. Even 10kmh faster and you float off the end of any shorter runways or bounce and stall.

Blue_5
07-27-2010, 02:23 AM
My bad about the flaps, I just looked it up:

Undercarriage and flap controls-
The selector lever for the undercarriage and flaps is on the right-hand side of the cockpit and works in a gate, having a neutral position and an UP and DOWN position for both undercarriage end flaps, the positions for operating the flaps being outboard.

Flap indicator.-
This is mechanically operated, the pointer moving along a graduated scale marked UP and DOWN at its extremities. It is situated immediately below the hydraulic selector lever.

M_Gunz
07-27-2010, 02:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WTE_Galway:
Also without flaps even though Vref is higher there is less lift and hence less bounce.

However regardless of that the higher airspeed does give the controls more authority which seems to help in crosswinds.

The main difference is the lower approach angle meaning considerably less visibility and almost no flare as you are already virtually in landing configuration. Speed control is tricky as you often approach with minimal throttle and the only way to wipe off any excess speed/height is a slideslip. If you do hit the fence too hot there is also a tendency to float forever in ground effect providing any spectators with a nice flyby http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

A good example in game is the Avia B534 which has no flaps so all landings are flap-less.

The Avia stalls at roughly 100kmh giving a Vref of about 130 kmh. Holding 130 kmh requires a shallow approach and no throttle but hit the fence at 130 kmh and you get a perfect 3 pointer almost every time. Less than that and there is a good chance you will crash and burn. Even 10kmh faster and you float off the end of any shorter runways or bounce and stall. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

10 kmh.. that's a freaking narrow window!

When I said landing fast, I don't mean just a little bit. Wasn't it you who pointed out the difference between landing speed in a 70% or 80% scale Spit vs a 100% scale Spit? In game I might touch down at 190 kph or more when hot dogging but in game I don't get hurt. I'll also get more brave at a concrete strip than a grass strip, I wonder if it matters in IL2?

And crosswinds, sure there's enough reason for speed but how much more? I'm not real big on crosswinds, there's no working windsock in IL2. I only seem to notice wind in IL2 during takeoff runs and then only when it's pretty bad.

Blue_5, doesn't having a flap neutral position suggest something like being able to stop the flaps between full up and down?

Kwiatos
07-27-2010, 04:37 AM
From Hurricane MK II Manual:

"Check list before Take off:

Flaps:

- UP ( 26 deg. down - two divs. on indicator - for shortes take-off run)."

Note that maximum down flaps position for Hurricane is 80 deg.

So it seemed that Hurri had more flaps postions ( not only landing).

K_Freddie
07-27-2010, 07:15 AM
Hopefully they'll also now correct the light sabre tracer lasers in SOW... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

JtD
07-27-2010, 09:51 AM
Would have been wise to check out the flaps before adding a lot of buggy Hurricanes to the game, wouldn't it, Kwiatos?

Mods and quality control seem to be mutually exclusive.

TheGrunch
07-27-2010, 10:34 AM
Inheriting errors from the original game is not really poor quality control, is it, since the original game is held up as some kind of Holy Grail of accuracy and mod makers are encouraged to stick as closely to stock as possible?

M2morris
07-27-2010, 11:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WTE_Galway:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
The slower landing is less likely to bounce or get you killed in the case where something happens like a wheel getting caught in a hole or a flat or a leg collapsing on TD, those kind of things you much generally get in games. There are good solid reasons why pilots do like the things they do besides showing off, you can feel them in every real landing when you're in a front seat. IME, each real landing just in the 2nd seat is worth more than any online sortie I've played yet. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have never flown a tail dragger but my understanding is you can still 3 point a flapless landing as both Vso and Vref are higher not just Vref. Also without flaps even though Vref is higher there is less lift and hence less bounce.

However regardless of that the higher airspeed does give the controls more authority which seems to help in crosswinds.

The main difference is the lower approach angle meaning considerably less visibility and almost no flare as you are already virtually in landing configuration. Speed control is tricky as you often approach with minimal throttle and the only way to wipe off any excess speed/height is a slideslip. If you do hit the fence too hot there is also a tendency to float forever in ground effect providing any spectators with a nice flyby http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

A good example in game is the Avia B534 which has no flaps so all landings are flap-less.

The Avia stalls at roughly 100kmh giving a Vref of about 130 kmh. Holding 130 kmh requires a shallow approach and no throttle but hit the fence at 130 kmh and you get a perfect 3 pointer almost every time. Less than that and there is a good chance you will crash and burn. Even 10kmh faster and you float off the end of any shorter runways or bounce and stall. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Over the years I've had off-the-cuff tail dragger training in my brother's Van's RV4 beating up the pattern and in a high crosswind or rough choppy weather we used a wheel landing for obvious reasons but when the weather is nice and calm you can go for a three point lower speed touch down. And like Mguns said, if you have a blowout or a some gear failure during a fast landing you can be in trouble but it's a risk assessment the pilot takes at the time, and the decision depends on what the windsock is doing.

JtD
07-27-2010, 11:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TheGrunch:
Inheriting errors from the original game is not really poor quality control, is it, since the original game is held up as some kind of Holy Grail of accuracy and mod makers are encouraged to stick as closely to stock as possible? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you add something, you should make sure it's bug free. Period. At least there should be no simple and obvious ones.

Ideally, you also note the bug so that it can be removed in the next patch, but that I'd consider bonus.

TheGrunch
07-27-2010, 11:46 AM
Flaps I think are a pretty funny one in this game anyway, since if you have them set on a slider you can put them in any position anyway, even on the Spitfire with its pneumatically operated flaps. Unlike most modders Kwiatek is quite happy to correct errors given ample justification and sources.

Kwiatos
07-27-2010, 11:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JtD:
Would have been wise to check out the flaps before adding a lot of buggy Hurricanes to the game, wouldn't it, Kwiatos?

Mods and quality control seem to be mutually exclusive. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

2 position flaps in Hurricane is coming from stock game. I suspected some time ago that Hurricane had more postion flaps but i didnt have clear evidence for it. Now i got it so i could think about correct these in some new Hurricanes in UP.
Beside i made only one FM for Hurricane MK1 +12 lbs version - so i im not asnwer for other new one versions.

Im also not happy with all these new added planes in mod pack - many of them have very poor and bad FM and performance which i really dont like also. Not every have skill, knowledge but also objectivity, honesty and reliability to make accurate FM and performacne. ( look at the most russian planes in IL2 :P )

Daiichidoku
07-27-2010, 01:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TheGrunch:
Unlike most modders Kwiatek is quite happy to correct errors given ample justification and sources. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

if that is the case, then Kwiatek/Kwiatos clearly was not the one who "fixed" Bury's correct P38 stall speed for UP... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Kwiatos
07-27-2010, 01:46 PM
Just out of curiosity could you write some more details about P-38?

What i remember i just fix for UP new P-38s ( by HSFX) which had absurdly turn rate and flaps characteristic.

FoolTrottel
07-27-2010, 02:10 PM
Nope, you all are not going to discuss that over here.

It's against the rules here, remember?

Locking.

Xiolablu3
07-27-2010, 02:11 PM
In the original IL2, the Hurricane was a uber plane believe it or not. It coud turn and burn the hell out of most aircraft and was very forgoving.

Later it was nerfed, and should have been cos it was just uber. but maybe they went slightly too far the other way.

IRL the only thing the Hurri had over the Me109 was the ease of flight and its sustained turn rate. however in the sim nowadyas, I think the Bf109 is the better turner IMHO.

possibly they just went a bit too far with the nerfing.

EDIT : Lol talk about in beofre the lock? Ever heard of in AFTER the lock? I didnt use any powers to add this post, it just happened.