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Xiolablu3
02-10-2008, 06:34 PM
While researching the history of Anti-Tank weapons, and the PIAT, I came across this :-


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Henry_Cain

'WHat a guy...' http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Xiolablu3
02-10-2008, 06:34 PM
While researching the history of Anti-Tank weapons, and the PIAT, I came across this :-


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Henry_Cain

'WHat a guy...' http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Low_Flyer_MkIX
02-10-2008, 06:50 PM
"The young Ms Cain remained unaware of her father's VC until after he died. Apparently he had never thought to mention it."

That tells you a lot about the man. S!

ploughman
02-10-2008, 06:58 PM
Quite.

Schwarz.13
02-10-2008, 07:15 PM
Bloody good show! S!

Patriot_Act
02-10-2008, 07:34 PM
Can't be. Tigers are indestructable. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif
He supposedly bagged 6 in that one action!

P.A.

Schwarz.13
02-10-2008, 07:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Patriot_Act:
Can't be. Tigers are indestructable. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif
He supposedly bagged 6 in that one action!

P.A. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I must admit that i took the account of 'Tigers' with a pinch of salt - whilst it was almost certainly elements of II SS Panzer Corps they were fighting at Arnhem, i would be more inclined to believe they were Mk. IVs that he disabled with the infamous PIAT.

However, i am not for a minute doubting the man's incredible bravery...

Xiolablu3
02-10-2008, 08:07 PM
It actually says 6 Tanks all togther and of those were 4 Tigers 'knocked out' which means 'out of the fight', not necersarily 'destroyed'

Blowing a track off a Tiger while it has enemy anti-tank weapons close by would be enough to make the crew panic. (Read about the first ever Tiger captured by the Allies in the Desert, you dont need to destroy a Tank to 'Knock it out')

Its likely the Germans were able to recover and repair some of them after the battle.

There were Tigers and KING Tigers defending Arnhem/Osterbeek.

tjaika1910
02-10-2008, 08:26 PM
Jeremy Clarkson is his son in law. He also made a tv-doc about VC winners, including Cain. Have any of you brits seen it?

Low_Flyer_MkIX
02-10-2008, 08:38 PM
I did some research and provided some veterans for a BBC series called 'For Valour' years ago - to be honest, I didn't think much of the finished series at the time, cheap docu-drama. Don't know if Clarkson was involved. His recent (last couple of years) show on the St Nazaire raid was worth watching though.

leitmotiv
02-10-2008, 08:40 PM
See Evelyn Waugh's Brigadier Ritchie Hook in his Sword of Honour trilogy, or the real life "Strafer" Gott or Brigadier Campbell of N. Africa (who directed and led a tank charge in a car with the Union flag flying)---the thoroughgoing warrior. An incredible variant of the species.

Xiolablu3
02-10-2008, 08:41 PM
PIATs seem to be quite effective, despite their reputation :-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/ww2peopleswar/stories/06/a3281906.shtml

Low_Flyer_MkIX
02-10-2008, 08:49 PM
Look out for a book called 'Flamethrower' by Andrew Wilson - he crewed a Churchill 'crocodile'. Some fantastic accounts of recommended methods for infantrymen to take out Panzers; along the lines of 'The tiger has a hand-cranked turret, you know. If you run around and around the bloody thing fast enough, they'll soon get tired - giving you ample time to whack a P.I.A.T. round into it.'

leitmotiv
02-10-2008, 08:59 PM
I'd rather have a PIAT, which could be fired point-blank under cover or from inside a house, than a rocket which had to fired in the open, and created a nice flame and smoke/dirt backblast to kindly inform the other team exactly where the offending projectile was lobbed! I gather cocking the spring for the first shot was a huge pain.

BadA1m
02-10-2008, 09:34 PM
'The tiger has a hand-cranked turret, you know. If you run around and around the bloody thing fast enough, they'll soon get tired - giving you ample time to whack a P.I.A.T. round into it.'

I sure hope for the sakes of any poor blokes who took that advice that the Tiger crew didn't think to start the engine while all this was going on! The PTO was not only a bit quicker than hand cranking, it was much less strenuous.

R_Target
02-10-2008, 09:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The day after "Smoky" won his V.C. the Panther which had ended up in the ditch was recovered and presented by the Seaforths to "A" squadron 145th Regt. R.A.C. and after a good clean and check up was used against it's makers until the ammunition ran out. Before that however, my friend who was the gunner of this captured Panther took great joy in stonking the enemy with their own 19 foot long barrelled special 75mm gun ! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good show. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif

Messaschnitzel
02-11-2008, 12:18 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by leitmotiv:
I'd rather have a PIAT, which could be fired point-blank under cover or from inside a house, than a rocket which had to fired in the open, and created a nice flame and smoke/dirt backblast to kindly inform the other team exactly where the offending projectile was lobbed! I gather cocking the spring for the first shot was a huge pain. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I hope that the spring the PIAT used was stronger than the one used in this launcher:

UH-OH! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWVg6YYxV5w) http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Schwarz.13
02-11-2008, 04:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Messaschnitzel:
I hope that the spring the PIAT used was stronger than the one used in this launcher:
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think it was pretty strong indeed: PIAT (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tj76mfiIa34)

Aaron_GT
02-11-2008, 12:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">'The tiger has a hand-cranked turret, you know. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sadly not true. It was powered. At the start of the war German tanks from the III upwards even had an auxilliary motor for turret traverse when the main engine was off, but this was one of the items later dropped. So later in the war a German tank with the main engine off WOULD then be reduced to hand operation of the turret. Turret traverse was typically slower than the Sherman, though, and stabilisation was absent.

Low_Flyer_MkIX
02-11-2008, 12:39 PM
I was attempting to impart some flavour from the book mentioned, not quoting from a technical manual. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Hoenire
02-11-2008, 04:37 PM
All of the men who have won the VC did quite fantastic things to earn it - and all of the documentaries or books I've seen that deal with them convey how they were just doing their job as they saw it. Most of the VCs were awarded posthumously.

I don't know what the criteria were for awarding a VC but they must have been incredibly tough. There was a documentary about the St. Nazaire raid (not the Jeremy Clarkson one) that showed how much of a hero the ordinary soldiers were, let alone VC winners!

Hoenire
02-11-2008, 04:47 PM
What is amazing is that some of the VC winners received the medal on the evidence provided by the enemy!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Victoria_Cross_recipients

Some of the descriptions are brief. Hendon museum in London has a very good display about the VCs and other medals won by RAF pilots.

LW_lcarp
02-11-2008, 05:05 PM
Gave his last cigerette to a fellow solidier wow http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

Low_Flyer_MkIX
02-11-2008, 05:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hoenire:
All of the men who have won the VC did quite fantastic things to earn it - and all of the documentaries or books I've seen that deal with them convey how they were just doing their job as they saw it. Most of the VCs were awarded posthumously.

I don't know what the criteria were for awarding a VC but they must have been incredibly tough. There was a documentary about the St. Nazaire raid (not the Jeremy Clarkson one) that showed how much of a hero the ordinary soldiers were, let alone VC winners! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've posted my story about my day in a pub with the Commando Association before - but it does sum up the spirit of these men. Here it is again:-

Several years ago I interviewed some ex-commando's who did St Nazaire. They were the most unassuming guys you could wish to meet. Equating these lovely old gentlemen with some of the things they did was a bit of a challenge at first. One of them told me he could see it was all going 'tits up' in St Nazaire, so he decided to walk to Spain. The cafes on the way were often full of other Commando's with the same idea, in various items of mixed civillian clothing and British uniform, openly smoking packets of British cigarettes - to the consternation of the locals.

His friend came over part-way through this tale and asked "Is that bloody amatuer telling you how he walked to Spain?"

"Why yes." I replied, "Why amatuer?"

"I stole a bicycle. A lot quicker." He said in a fine West-country burr, and wandered off to the bar.

Airmail109
02-11-2008, 05:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Low_Flyer_MkIX:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hoenire:
All of the men who have won the VC did quite fantastic things to earn it - and all of the documentaries or books I've seen that deal with them convey how they were just doing their job as they saw it. Most of the VCs were awarded posthumously.

I don't know what the criteria were for awarding a VC but they must have been incredibly tough. There was a documentary about the St. Nazaire raid (not the Jeremy Clarkson one) that showed how much of a hero the ordinary soldiers were, let alone VC winners! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've posted my story about my day in a pub with the Commando Association before - but it does sum up the spirit of these men. Here it is again:-

Several years ago I interviewed some ex-commando's who did St Nazaire. They were the most unassuming guys you could wish to meet. Equating these lovely old gentlemen with some of the things they did was a bit of a challenge at first. One of them told me he could see it was all going 'tits up' in St Nazaire, so he decided to walk to Spain. The cafes on the way were often full of other Commando's with the same idea, in various items of mixed civillian clothing and British uniform, openly smoking packets of British cigarettes - to the consternation of the locals.

His friend came over part-way through this tale and asked "Is that bloody amatuer telling you how he walked to Spain?"

"Why yes." I replied, "Why amatuer?"

"I stole a bicycle. A lot quicker." He said in a fine West-country burr, and wandered off to the bar. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for that little story. I find it amazing you could disappear in a country the size of France, couldn't do that these days. Shame.