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Fehler
02-03-2004, 01:59 PM
OK, this sounds like a whine, and in part I guess it is. But lets get serious.. The La-7 is rediculas in this game.

Energy state the same, a 190 and La-7 merge head on. The 190 continues to fly straight, but the La-7 can turn around 180 degrees, and catch up to the 190 in less than 3 KM? Does the La-7 fly on the etheral plane of existence and therefore has no recourse to the laws of physics; friction (Drag), gravitational forces, etc?

For you guys that like to fly the La-7, do you really believe in your hearts that the thing was THAT energy efficient?

When you shoot someone down in it, do you REALLY think you are a good pilot?


OK, I know some of you are saying... I can shoot down a La-7 in the QMB... Give me a break, we are talking apples and oranges.

Here was a test I conducted. I flew a 190 A-9 on a server the other day with newb wing cannon, the works. I B&Z only. In an hour I got 3 kills and was shot down 5 times against a La-7.

The I hop into a La-7 and score 7 kills in 18 minutes and only died when I took on 4-1 odds!

Did I suddenly become a better pilot? Was my aim suddenly better?

Nope. Flew the same way, used the same B&Z tactics, shot as crappy as I usually do.

The only thing I noticed in the La-7 was that at very high speeds, it shook a little more than the German planes. The same low wingloading plane that can do science fiction bat maneuvers was incredibly easy to control at high speeds. Those little things called elevators and ailerons seem to be just as efficient at high speeds as they are at low speeds, thus the plane can turn on a dime at any velocity.

My opinion: A person that flies it might as well fly cockpit off, fantasy settings... It would go well with his/her fantasy plane...

[/end gripe]

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Fehler
02-03-2004, 01:59 PM
OK, this sounds like a whine, and in part I guess it is. But lets get serious.. The La-7 is rediculas in this game.

Energy state the same, a 190 and La-7 merge head on. The 190 continues to fly straight, but the La-7 can turn around 180 degrees, and catch up to the 190 in less than 3 KM? Does the La-7 fly on the etheral plane of existence and therefore has no recourse to the laws of physics; friction (Drag), gravitational forces, etc?

For you guys that like to fly the La-7, do you really believe in your hearts that the thing was THAT energy efficient?

When you shoot someone down in it, do you REALLY think you are a good pilot?


OK, I know some of you are saying... I can shoot down a La-7 in the QMB... Give me a break, we are talking apples and oranges.

Here was a test I conducted. I flew a 190 A-9 on a server the other day with newb wing cannon, the works. I B&Z only. In an hour I got 3 kills and was shot down 5 times against a La-7.

The I hop into a La-7 and score 7 kills in 18 minutes and only died when I took on 4-1 odds!

Did I suddenly become a better pilot? Was my aim suddenly better?

Nope. Flew the same way, used the same B&Z tactics, shot as crappy as I usually do.

The only thing I noticed in the La-7 was that at very high speeds, it shook a little more than the German planes. The same low wingloading plane that can do science fiction bat maneuvers was incredibly easy to control at high speeds. Those little things called elevators and ailerons seem to be just as efficient at high speeds as they are at low speeds, thus the plane can turn on a dime at any velocity.

My opinion: A person that flies it might as well fly cockpit off, fantasy settings... It would go well with his/her fantasy plane...

[/end gripe]

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GoodKn1ght
02-03-2004, 02:10 PM
i cant stand noobs, i cant stand easy settings, and i cant stand the la7. they all go hand in hand.

"Friends don't let friends fly arcade"

IKNO
02-03-2004, 02:12 PM
"You is wrong. Be sure. La7 was superior to all western piston engined fighters." http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

ucanfly
02-03-2004, 02:24 PM
I have to agree that after flying 109s or 190s and then moving to LA7 it is just night and day, where physics seems to take a holiday on the LA7 (at least the part atrributable to energy bleed and stick forces).

I know many here take on multiple LA7s with a flying brick successfully, "just use roll maneuvers"..., blah, blah, blah. IMO the LA7 AI is not as good as some other planes (including Yak3 and K4), but that is not the point. The point is the 190s did not fly like bricks and the LA7s were subject to the same aerodynamic forces as everyone else. YOu don't need charts and graphs to tell you that the laws of physics have been violated heavily in certain cases , and this appears to be one obvious example.

noshens
02-03-2004, 02:24 PM
If you sucked with fw190 so much and were so good with la7 maybe you try to use the same tactics with fw as you did with la, which of course is wrong.

I bet la cought you when you were at low altitudes but that's the only place where Las are actually good. Try to fight at alitudes appropriate to your plane not your enemy's plane. And if La did catch you at 3000m then you aren't any good.

La got the best weight/power ratio in this game, I would suspect it to be very energy efficient. And have you ever tried to BnZ in it? That's impossible, you can't use your altitude advantage in this plane as you can in german or american planes.

ucanfly
02-03-2004, 02:36 PM
What is low altitude for the FW? 5km? Many LW pilot reports say that the 190 could do many things well not just fly in a straight line above 5km. This plane seems to only be able to turn above 600 km/hr, arcade roll, and have lots (too much?) firepower to make up for the fact that it is a flying brick with poor visibility. Sure you gamers can get around that against noobs, or when you perform surprise attacks with huge alt advantage, but the poor elevater control of FW at medium speeds seems to exagerate its shortcomings and the roll rate exaggerates its good qualities, whereas the only things I noticed that the LA doesn't do well is dive at 800 km/hr.

Cardinal25
02-03-2004, 02:36 PM
Here is my question about the La series:

Were they really faster than Mustang's? They are in game. If so that is fine, but I have my doubts.

-----------------------------
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S77th-brooks
02-03-2004, 02:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by IKNO:
"You is wrong. Be sure. La7 was superior to all western piston engined fighters." http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> what till you meet a TA 152 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

blabla0001
02-03-2004, 02:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by S77th-brooks:
what till you meet a TA 152 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, if your in it brooks I am not worried one bit.

blabla0001
02-03-2004, 02:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
OK, this sounds like a whine, and in part I guess it is. But lets get serious.. The La-7 is rediculas in this game.

Energy state the same, a 190 and La-7 merge head on. The 190 continues to fly straight, but the La-7 can turn around 180 degrees, and catch up to the 190 in less than 3 KM? Does the La-7 fly on the etheral plane of existence and therefore has no recourse to the laws of physics; friction (Drag), gravitational forces, etc?

For you guys that like to fly the La-7, do you really believe in your hearts that the thing was THAT energy efficient?

When you shoot someone down in it, do you REALLY think you are a good pilot?


OK, I know some of you are saying... I can shoot down a La-7 in the QMB... Give me a break, we are talking apples and oranges.

Here was a test I conducted. I flew a 190 A-9 on a server the other day with newb wing cannon, the works. I B&Z only. In an hour I got 3 kills and was shot down 5 times against a La-7.

The I hop into a La-7 and score 7 kills in 18 minutes and only died when I took on 4-1 odds!

Did I suddenly become a better pilot? Was my aim suddenly better?

Nope. Flew the same way, used the same B&Z tactics, shot as crappy as I usually do.

The only thing I noticed in the La-7 was that at very high speeds, it shook a little more than the German planes. The same low wingloading plane that can do science fiction bat maneuvers was incredibly easy to control at high speeds. Those little things called elevators and ailerons seem to be just as efficient at high speeds as they are at low speeds, thus the plane can turn on a dime at any velocity.

My opinion: A person that flies it might as well fly cockpit off, fantasy settings... It would go well with his/her fantasy plane...

[/end gripe]

http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/FehlerSig.gif
http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/9JG54.html<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Try hunting them in a Bf109 G2, if the La-7 is the VVS oddly modelled plane then the G2 is the LW counterpart, that thing can fight any late war plane in this game without too much trouble, very impressive for a 1942 model.

As far as I can tell the G2 has it all, awsome climb speed, it's a great turner, great high speed controls, good dive speed and sniper like 20mm cannon with a good gunsight for deflection shots.

Why did they even bother to build the G6 and up if the G2 was that great?

histrionic
02-03-2004, 02:54 PM
online would be so much better if the Uber LA-7 was deleted from the game. Take the LA-7 model and keep it for any upcoming X-wing Tie fighter game, or maybe wing commander 5. Kinda spoils the experience for players who enjoy flying the more realistic feeling aircraft, and i gotta say, Oleg has done an excellent job with the me 109, it reallie feels like ur in a plane when flying that series. Everytime a new late war plane gets added, eg. la7, ki84, i think their uberness relative to earlier planes has been grossly exaggerated. cant blame Oleg, balancing models is must be one hell of a tricky endeavour.

blabla0001
02-03-2004, 02:56 PM
histrionic, so according to you the Bf109 G2 is spot on correctly modelled?

LEXX_Luthor
02-03-2004, 03:06 PM
lol the Noobs are still dogfighting at sea level? I thought things would change after the P~51. Oh wait, I guess P~51 chases them from hi altitude, into the tender care of La. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif



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ericson
02-03-2004, 03:19 PM
It's built like a tank too seems to shrug off mg fire. I have noticed that i can sometimes turn inside it if i am in a zero or P11. I certainly feel vulnerable taking them on in a Hurricane. Got a LA7 kill with the B17 the other day. Ericson

tttiger
02-03-2004, 03:29 PM
Yes, this is a LuftWhine and, no surprise, there is GoodKnight in the chorus line. ALL he does is whine. The comments about noobs and people who fly other than full real are incredibly arrogant and insulting. We should be welcoming newcomers and the sim is designed to be played at many levels of difficulkty (not levels of reality). A bit of an inferiority complex at work perhaps?

Having done a bit of on-line racing (wish I were better at it), I can tell you the LA-7 and the Dora are by far the two fastest planes in the game.

On top of that, the LA-7 is very agile while the Dora is not.

I believe that's what the history books say, too.

The Hitler Youth never stop whining, do they?

ttt

"I want the one that kills the best with the least amount of risk to me"

-- Chuck Yeager describing "The Best Airplane."

crazyivan1970
02-03-2004, 03:33 PM
LA7 Sucks, i`d take any 109 over it. Well not any.. but starting from G2 and up. There! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

V!
Regards,

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Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

oFZo
02-03-2004, 03:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tttiger:

The Hitler Youth never stop whining, do they?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey, I agree Goodkn1ght is getting more than a tad annoying, but comparing luftwhiners to the Hitlerjugend isn't particularly 'right' either... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

-oFZo
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SKULLS_LZ
02-03-2004, 03:39 PM
I must be one hell of a crappy pilot cause I can't hit sh*t in the La-7 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif Me and that plane just dont get along for some reason. Yak-3, now that's a different story...

I'm starting to get tired of late war servers anyway, too much "arcadish" crap going on even in Full Real servers, i.e. 190A9s v P40s, Hurris v 109K4s. Yeah that really happened a lot in 1944! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif (*cough* Blazing Magnums* http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif)

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nickdanger3
02-03-2004, 03:45 PM
I fly the La-7 ESPECIALLY when the entire planeset is available to the other guys. It's the only way that (relatively) inexperienced players like myself have even the most slim of chance of a kill (read: fun) against uber BnZ'ers.

Fehler, the question isn't how many more kills YOU get in an LA than your usual ride, but how often kooks like ME in an LA can kill your BF's and FW's. If my online experience is any guide, even with an LA, I still get whacked (far too) consistently by better pilots/marksmen.

Maybe think of it as handicapping - if you've ever played the game Go, the handicapping in that game is great. Somebody who just learned how to play can go up against a master and it's a good game.

Isn't that what you'd prefer? A good fight?

LeadSpitter_
02-03-2004, 03:47 PM
under 5000m the la7 should be superior to just about every plane in the game, climb, combat turn, power to weight which is why they can turn and catch you with ease. You still can outrun them but have to be past the las breakupspeed.

I know what your saying tho, many times i'd bnz from 3000m above a low level la7 fly level with my energy thinking id get away but it isnt the case,

same with the p47 vs the ki84 you can bnz 900kmph+ in the jug on a low level ki84, you fly level after the bnz to have the most energy for outrunning him rather then climbing back up and loosing 2000m from your original hieght. You cant outrun him for more then 10-15 seconds flying level with alot more energy.

Maybe somethings slightly off with drag, power to weight, ebleed of certain aircraft

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LW_lcarp
02-03-2004, 03:56 PM
I love these topics. You have the wait a minute i just dumped everything ive got in to an LA and it didnt die.

And on the other hand you have the why are you flying your 109 or 190 so low of course my over modeled plane is going to kill it people.

Now with a wingman you can be fairly good in a german plane but in one of the VVS wonder planes you can do twice as good and not need a wingman.

Now ive never heard anywhere of the LA series being as tough as the 190 or P-47 but in this game its twice as strong and will fly circles around you to boot.

And whats even better is ive never flown it cause it seems to fake to me from day one. If i fly VVS i take a P-40 or P-47. But wont fly the Uber LAs or Yaks as i have to keep my standards high

"If winning isnt everything why do they keep score"
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S77th-brooks
02-03-2004, 04:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cappadocian_317:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by S77th-brooks:
what till you meet a TA 152 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, if your in it brooks I am not worried one bit.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>weak talk again http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

blabla0001
02-03-2004, 04:14 PM
brooks, your nothing but a little wannabie noobie.

Weak talk again?

Your still anoyed that I as an Allied player can handle the "10 times the skill needed" LW planes better then in your wet dreams.

All you did so far is whine that the LW planes are not good enough and that the LW cannons are not accurate enough or post "wait till I can fly the Ta-152" remarks.

Well, if you suck in a LW plane now you will also suck in the Ta-152.

Therefore there is no need to fear you and soon after the release of the Add-on you will come back here and whine about the Ta-152 being incorrectly modelled by Oleg the bias overlord maximus.

Zoilus
02-03-2004, 04:27 PM
I love the La7 because I can shoot down lots of enemy when I want a fun game. I don't care that its a noob plane because I like it. If I fly on a df server as axis then I love the Ki84 so I'll fly that. If you fly on a server where all planes are available, and you keep to a 109 then I say good for you, but you're toast. This is also true for me when I fly an axis plane, preferably the G6A/S or G10. Quite simply, late war allied planes are better, end of story. Whether thats because of programming or not is immaterial, they are simply better. And so the La7 is better and you die more.

But it is frustrating when you hit an La7 with 5 or 6 cannon shells in the wing and it keeps going...

Flying online as II/JG54_Zoilus (with some scarily better than me squadron fliers)

bazzaah2
02-03-2004, 04:34 PM
Is the La7 overmodelled and if so in which ways? I ask merely for information.

I'm not really a fan of that one I must admit, but would be interesting to know if it is, as people say, simply a better plane (in certain contexts at least) than most others.

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tttiger
02-03-2004, 04:45 PM
OFZO, you are correct.

I humbly apologize to all members of the Hitler Youth who may be reading this.

It was unfair to link you folks with LuftWhiners. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

ttt

"I want the one that kills the best with the least amount of risk to me"

-- Chuck Yeager describing "The Best Airplane."

XyZspineZyX
02-03-2004, 04:46 PM
Capadocian wonders:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Why did they even bother to build the G6 and up if the G2 was that great?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because, when they designed the G6s, they were less concerned with battling fighters than with stopping the tide of BOMBERS over Germany.

The G6 is a bomber interceptor first and foremost. More armor, heavier guns, bigger motor to get it higher up, and more aerodynamic obstructions (and more heavy armament package options, too).

It took an excellent fighter and made it into a "ok" fighter.

blabla0001
02-03-2004, 04:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stiglr:
Capadocian wonders:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Why did they even bother to build the G6 and up if the G2 was that great?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because, when they designed the G6s, they were less concerned with battling fighters than with stopping the tide of BOMBERS over Germany.

The G6 is a bomber interceptor first and foremost. More armor, heavier guns, bigger motor to get it higher up, and more aerodynamic obstructions (and more heavy armament package options, too).

It took an excellent fighter and made it into a "ok" fighter.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Stiglr, I was joking.

This forum used to be full of whine posts about nearly every Russian plane in the game with "Why bother to build so many types when &lt;Insert Russian uber plane of the week here&gt; was so great?

blabla0001
02-03-2004, 04:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Zoilus:
But it is frustrating when you hit an La7 with 5 or 6 cannon shells in the wing and it keeps going...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Aim for the wing tips or the engine of the LA-7.

S77th-brooks
02-03-2004, 04:55 PM
LA7 HAS A BAD GUN SIGHT ,POOR YOU LEARN TO SHOOT THEN

blabla0001
02-03-2004, 04:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by S77th-brooks:
LA7 HAS A BAD GUN SIGHT ,POOR YOU LEARN TO SHOOT THEN<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Eh?

What are you trying to say brooks?

S77th-brooks
02-03-2004, 04:59 PM
and post sum more photo,s of how great you are http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Korolov
02-03-2004, 05:02 PM
The La-7 was no slouch, I can tell you that much. Kozedhub didn't prefer it over all other planes for nothing. Max speed of 680kmh at 5800m, 4.52 minutes to 5,000m, and a 3,400kg loaded weight. This plane was no show pony. It was a thoroughbred.

That said, it blows at altitude. Way up there at 8000m and higher, it barely generates any HP and handles terrible. Thats where Fw-190s and Bf-109s can eat it alive. Any lower and you're just asking for trouble.

http://www.mechmodels.com/images/newsig1.jpg

blabla0001
02-03-2004, 05:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by S77th-brooks:
and post sum more photo,s of how great you are http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah, I see you need more screenshots to brag to your friends at school how great you are. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

LEXX_Luthor
02-03-2004, 05:05 PM
Korolov:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>That said, it blows at altitude. Way up there at 8000m and higher, it barely generates any HP and handles terrible. Thats where Fw-190s and Bf-109s can eat it alive. Any lower and you're just asking for trouble.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> But our USA LuftWhiners need socially acceptable dogfight server ScreenShots, and they are only found at sea level. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif



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BS87
02-03-2004, 05:10 PM
I dont want to see *anyone* saying how you lose becuse your flying at low altitude. I ask you this, just how often do you see fights online at 5000m+? Thats right, not very often. Sure, you can take your 190 up there, but you'll more than likely just fly around until you run out of fuel and drift back down. The thing i dont like is when i zoom in a D9 from over 3000m to the deck at 760+kph, and an LA7 Bat-turns and follows me like a kid chasing an ice cream truck. I have no qulms about when i get stupid, and try to turn near and LA, or any VVS plane for that matter. Its when there is no possible way that the La7 should catch me, but it does, that i get pissed.

BfHeFwMe
02-03-2004, 05:12 PM
If your getting shot down in any 109 above the emils by an La-7, all I can say is your the noob. Engage my 109 with an La, and you'd better have a wingman. As for 190's, you must be a poor shot if you aren't killing it, you really have no other excuse there.

If some of you actually took the time to fly and fight it, you might know its weaknesses. I suspect most of the crying is about AI driven La's again, so what, AI 190's are uber too, so get off it.

TX-Bomblast
02-03-2004, 05:15 PM
The La7's are really good at low altittude only in experienced hands. But....using my K4 or G2, I've shot down plenty of them at 5000 meters and above.LW pilots should read a little history, the LW was instructed never to engage these types of planes at low altittude. Only the best energy dogfighters can beat them low.

TX-Bomblast
Red3

KGr.HH-Sunburst
02-03-2004, 05:18 PM
and the strange thing is while the La5FN handels very poor at lets say 500+ kph
and the La7 handels like a dream,were they that different ?

anyways i got outturned by a lagg3 in my la7 online last night.
i was almost full flaps had a bit more E than the lagg3 and in a sustained turn of five circles he outturns me and shot me http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif
very unlikely it was lag

but then again i only fly the la7 once a year to get the goddmode feeling http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

i fly the me109s 99% of the time and the la7 is my first target and dont got much trouble shooting them down every now and then

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SUPERAEREO
02-03-2004, 05:21 PM
I am sure I am a below average jockey in the game, but IMHO a properly flown Fw.190 is very difficult to catch even in a La.7.

The few that fell to my cannons were trying to T&B with me instead of zooming back up out of harm's way. Personally I find the climb rate of the A9 in the game difficult to match, even in a La.7 (I prefer the Yak3 or the Mustang, btw).

But then again I am no ace.

Said that, I cannot believe that anyone good would whine about the other side's planes: don't you guys like a challenge..?

S!

tttiger
02-03-2004, 05:35 PM
BS87,

Jump into one of the air races Friday evening or Saturday morning.

If they are flying an unlimited race, I guarantee you the only two planes you will see are LA-7s and Doras. They are very evenly matched. Nothing else can come close to competing with them.

So, yes, an LA-7 can catch you in a chase right on the deck. Whether or not it does depends on the skill of the two pilots.

To me, the hardest part of dogfighting in an LA-7 is to pay close attention to the throttle and slow down the plane when you get near the edge of the envelope. Too much speed and you're going to go ballistic and probably crash.
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

S!

ttt

"I want the one that kills the best with the least amount of risk to me"

-- Chuck Yeager describing "The Best Airplane."

dannnyjos
02-03-2004, 06:18 PM
I don't know how it was in real life, but in this game all the fighter planes fall into
1 of 2 categories.

1)T&B (Zero, I-153, I-16, P11, even Yaks...)
2)B&Z (Bf109, P47, P51, Ki84, 190 D9 Dora ...)

There is only one exeption. There is one plane that is extremely good at T&B and also Z&B. Care to take a guess? I know that some will say that it's our fault for engaing it at 5000 or lower. But how many DF's do you see online above 5000?
My question is: was the La7 really that powerful in RL? If it was, I would pitty anyone who dare to wage war against the Soviet Union in 1945.

jenikovtaw
02-03-2004, 06:19 PM
my 1 cent. I like La7 because its one of the few planes I can actually survive in. I do not feel special when i Shoot someone down. I do feel "unfairly owned" when it shoots me down.

VW-IceFire
02-03-2004, 06:44 PM
Not having read all of this thread I would like to say that after regarding the La-7 with great skepticism for quite some time (especially after fighting against them and loosing terribly!) I am somewhat converted (I still won't generally fly them) and resigned to the fact that they are GOOD and possibly the best low level fighter in 1945.

Check this site out (for better or for worse): http://www.btinternet.com/~fulltilt/Perform.html

Good stats on the aircraft. I tested roughly against that with the FB version and its close...very close.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/temp_sig1.jpg
The New IL2 Database is Coming Soon!

Cajun76
02-03-2004, 06:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
under 5000m the la7 should be superior to just about every plane in the game, climb, combat turn, power to weight which is why they can turn and catch you with ease. You still can outrun them but have to be past the las breakupspeed.

I know what your saying tho, many times i'd bnz from 3000m above a low level la7 fly level with my energy thinking id get away but it isnt the case,

same with the p47 vs the ki84 you can bnz 900kmph+ in the jug on a low level ki84, you fly level after the bnz to have the most energy for outrunning him rather then climbing back up and loosing 2000m from your original hieght. You cant outrun him for more then 10-15 seconds flying level with alot more energy.

Maybe somethings slightly off with drag, power to weight, ebleed of certain aircraft

http://www.geocities.com/leadspittersig/LSIG.txt
</BLOCKQUOTE>" TARGET=_blank>http://www.il2skins.com/?planeidfilter=all&planefamilyfilter=all&screenshotfilter=allskins&countryidfilter=all&authoridfilter=%3ALeadspitter%3A&historicalidfilter=all&Submit=+++Apply+filters++&action=list&ts=1072257400"target="blank<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> (http://www.il2skins.com/?planeidfilter=all&planefamilyfilter=all&screenshotfilter=allskins&countryidfilter=all&authoridfilter=%3ALeadspitter%3A&historicalidfilter=all&Submit=+++Apply+filters++&action=list&ts=1072257400)


Lead, do not 1) Run away level 2) Climb straight up. This will get you killed in a P-47, epecially if that Ki-84 or La7 is at speed. You have to transfer your superior speed into alt, while keeping the iniative of speed. That means anywhere from a 5 to 45 degree climb, based on his orientation to you and his speed. Throw in a gentle turn by dipping one wing, so you don't waste scraps of energy, and you make him waste a little. If they make a mistake, you can make more passes. If not, you can drag them up to more favorable altitudes for you. Above all, keep your speed up, even if it means he gets alt above you. Speed is manuevering and options, you'll have none if your caught slightly above him, standing still. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Good hunting,
Cajun76

http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v30/Cajun76/Realfire_02.gif
Have you thanked a veteran today?

kyrule2
02-03-2004, 06:48 PM
Superaereo, I'm not sure about what you are saying, the 190A-9's climb-rate is off. It climbs the same as the A-8 which is not very good at all.

I agree when people say take the 190 up higher to combat La series but the problem is that the 190A handles pretty bad at medium altitudes where it should be very strong. Take an A-4 to 5,500 to 6,000m and see how sluggish it feels compared to an La-5 standard. But my only real problem with La series is energy bleed (like P-39), but its not near as bad as it used to be.

I still think the Ki-84 is the best prop plane in the game right now.

http://www.brooksart.com/Icewarriors.jpg

"Ice Warriors" by Nicolas Trudgian

Steaky_361st
02-03-2004, 07:14 PM
You just need to know how to combat the pilots in their little uber planes. Most La7 Pilots (Not all as i have seen some with a high level of skill an knowledge) dont know crap about defending against B&Z Tactics. They never pay attention to their 6 oclock high as they spend most of their time down on the deck shredding around in little circles. This is where I eat them for breakfast in my beloved pony :P ....Just climb up to around 3000-3500m and dive on the suckers as theyre making donuts below...it works, trust me.

TooCooL34
02-03-2004, 08:31 PM
Arrgghh, stop it. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif
Thousands of doc and posts said La-7 was good. I also think it was best thou I only fly LW planes.

Let's assume it is wrong modelled, but it's subtle. Don't exaggerate it by your shot down experience.

Do you want perfect balnaced character game with different skins like quake? Then keep whine. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

WUAF_Badsight
02-03-2004, 09:06 PM
the Lavockins never got any media coverage in my country when i was growing up

neither did the ETO

i came across accounts about the ETO but it took IL2 Sturmovik to open my eyes to it

the reality is that up to 3000 m the LA series were simply awesome

the LA-7 is going better than it did in the war in FB but the FB LA-7 is based on a perfect condition russian test LA , the FB LA does the best performance that it ever was capable of

yes it had awesome performance but in FB it does things that are slightly exaggerated

it retains speed insanely well

it handels damadge awesomely for a wooden A/C

it has low overheat tendencies

these observations are compared against the metal LW planes that didnt have the bad overheating tendencies the LA was famous for

look at how easy the Bf109 range get motor damadge in FB & compare it too the LA series

what the LA was also famous for is it user freindly-ness

new pilots got along just fine in the LA .... it was a easy to use plane

the Spitfire also had good handeling characteristics .... when a plane gives you confidence when you are pushing it it gives you more confidence to push it more

it was a dogfighter & a damm good one

but a wooden plane that also had overheating tendencies

GoodKn1ght
02-04-2004, 12:09 AM
badsight wins.

"Friends don't let friends fly arcade"

darkhorizon11
02-04-2004, 12:20 AM
its funny how someone can go and make an amazing sim thats unparalleled in realism, graphics, gameplay, and performance. Yet people will still find something to whine about. Quit your B1TCH1N and play! Just ignore it and dont play with people who fly it! Geez

WUAF_Boxer
02-04-2004, 12:24 AM
I agree with Badsight too. The LA-7 is a great plane, but the two things that need ajusting in FB is E retention and the damage model. I think that everything else is fine.

pourshot
02-04-2004, 12:29 AM
I had to fly the LA7(maybe the second time I fly this thing)last nite on greater grean and was shocked at how often I was blacking out.I mostly fly p40's so I'am not used to so much speed the idea of closeing the throttle in the p40 never crosses my mind but in the LA my god that thing is fast.

http://members.optusnet.com.au/~andycarroll68/mybaby.jpeg.JPG
Ride It Like Ya Stole It

WUAF_Badsight
02-04-2004, 01:50 AM
when you fly the LA-7 ... watch your acceleration from 250 to 500 kph ..... its DAMM FAST ! ! !

SUPERAEREO
02-04-2004, 02:49 AM
Kirule2: I still think that The Fw.190 is a pretty tough adversary when flown in a purely B&Z way.
The La.7 surely is nimble and fast, but also she shears her wings pretty quickly if you don't watch her speed in a dive, and therefore cannot dive with nor zoom back up with a 190.

Even in RL the late 190 A's were never seen as a weapon to employ mainly against fighters, and when the Germans set up their Sturmgruppe with heavily armoured 190's they gave them Messerschmitts as escorts and not lightened 190's.

The Ki.84 surely is über, probably way too über... they seem to outfly everything else... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

Salute!

Jenny_Lo
02-04-2004, 05:37 AM
I'm sick you all the LA7 whiners.
These are the rules Oleg has given us in this game.
Learn how to fly it or learn how to beat it.

It was a damn good plane but could be flown or beaten.

If you think it's so good use it you whinning geeks.

Rajvosa
02-04-2004, 05:59 AM
If there is an overmodeled plane in this game, then it's got to be the P-40. By all accounts it was a sub par fighter, supposedly it wouldn't have a chance against a Bf 109, but in this game I am untouchable when flying against say, Bf 109G2. That is not right IMO.

Golf GTI Edition 2.0 16v (Rest In Pieces!)

Fillmore
02-04-2004, 06:25 AM
"The 190 continues to fly straight, but the La-7 can turn around 180 degrees, and catch up to the 190 in less than 3 KM? Does the La-7 fly on the etheral plane of existence and therefore has no recourse to the laws of physics; friction (Drag), gravitational forces, etc?"

This reminds me of the time I was flat out accused of cheating. The guy said "Now we know who has the hack" and left the server (this was back in IL2). I did what you describe, but when we went HO I was well below him. Oh, and I was flying a FW190A5 (I forget what he was in, but it was a late war server and everyone was flying 109G6/AS, Yak3, LA5FN and FW190A5). You need to develop a better mental model of the physics involved. Keep in mind that you can change direction 180 degrees without turning. And if you fly level you will always be caught (especially by an LA7, which should be, and is, faster than a FW190A9). Perhaps this link will get you thinking in the right direction and understand why flying level gets you caught

http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_015a.html

robban75
02-04-2004, 06:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SUPERAEREO:
Kirule2: I still think that The Fw.190 is a pretty tough adversary when flown in a purely B&Z way.
The La.7 surely is nimble and fast, but also she shears her wings pretty quickly if you don't watch her speed in a dive, and therefore cannot dive with nor zoom back up with a 190.
Salute!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The D-9 is a great BnZ fighter, the Fw 190A's are average. In a zoom climb the La-7 can beat the D-9 and P-51 by 100-200 meters and only the K-4 can best it. The La-7's dive speed has been increased to 810km/h IAS, the Yak-3 can dive at 850km/h IAS, (compared to D-9 900km/h IAS, P-51 910km/h IAS). So there's really not all that easy to outdive an La-7 anymore, especially since it has a great E retention and zoom climb. I'd also like someone to back up the 180deg/sec rollrates of the La-7 and Yak's planes.

http://members.chello.se/unni/Dora-9-3.JPG

When it comes to aircombat, I'd rather be lucky than good any day!

Fillmore
02-04-2004, 06:51 AM
Oh, and why is there so much whining about the LA7 and the Yak3 anyway? I never see anyone whining about how the 109F4 is so much better than the Yak1.

It is reaaly weird, because my first experiences with WWII air combat was through books and boardgames, and it wasn't until I started flying online flightsims (WBIII) that I encountered this notion that LW planes were superior to Allied planes. I had always understood that Western Allied planes had better superchargers and flew faster at high altitudes (P51, P47, most Spits), and turned better (well Spits anyway), were more often than not faster at many altitudes, and often had better firepower. In order to compete with them at altitudes the Germans had to use nitrous, and while western allied planes improved dramatically in 1943 over 1942, LW planes' performance was kinda stagnant that year. While in the East the Soviet planes were as good or better at low altitudes.

I took a liking to the FWs because of their looks, and to LW planes in general because while overall they were the underdogs, they had limited advantages they could exploit (climbrate in 109s, rollrate and firepower in 190s).

Then I get into online sims and find that people who fly the LW planes seem to think that their machines should be the overdogs. While the games I have played and books I have read indicate that who had the edge could vary from month to month as new models came out, I was under the impression that for the most part the LW machines were the underdogs. Yet here (as well as WBIII back when I played that) people seem to whine about allied planes outperforming LW machines.

/confused rant off/

Slush69
02-04-2004, 06:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fillmore:
This reminds me of the time I was flat out accused of cheating. The guy said "Now we know who has the hack" and left the server (this was back in IL2). I did what you describe, but when we went HO I was well below him. Oh, and I was flying a FW190A5 (I forget what he was in, but it was a late war server and everyone was flying 109G6/AS, Yak3, LA5FN and FW190A5). You need to develop a better mental model of the physics involved. Keep in mind that you can change direction 180 degrees without turning. And if you fly level you will always be caught (especially by an LA7, which should be, and is, faster than a FW190A9). Perhaps this link will get you thinking in the right direction and understand why flying level gets you caught

http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_015a.html<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Great link, thanks! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

It's always nice with some actual thought and figures instead of the anecdotal evidence this thread is full of.

Maybe it's just me, but were I to claim that plane X is under- or overmodelled, I would at least post basic hard data to substantiate that claim. I wouldn't tell a tall tale from a DF server.

cheers/slush

http://www.wilcks.dk/crap/Eurotrolls.gif

F19_Ob
02-04-2004, 06:55 AM
Im still unfamiliar with La7 (still testing ) and I have problems catching BnZ fw190 even in level flight. Only time Ive caught them is when spraying after them in their climb from long distance with the 3 cannons or if i've succeded to fool them into turnfighting.

Chasing after fw190 makes the engine to overheat quite quickly and I remember that it takes very long time to overheat the Fw.

Im not speaking in favor of any of these planes
but historically the La7 was a very good plane weak only in the power dive.
Remember that it was a late plane, like the Yak3, and they really made the german planes antiquated, especially the 109. I havent yet found a source that says anything else.



Shakespear once wrote ".....they are winged....".

jurinko
02-04-2004, 07:01 AM
ehm.. the usual situation.. diving from 2km alt advantage on turnfighting bunch of planes.. trying to aim, the cockpit struts block the view, blind sec of fire, slow pull-up, look over your shoulder.. one of the turning planes raises its nose following you .. how many times did you rely on your speed and weight and how many times the enemy just pulled up his nose, catch you and - fired..

IHI.OuTcAsT
02-04-2004, 07:29 AM
I think that LA7 is one of the most balanced planes in IL2FB and I think that if this plane didn't exist along with the LA5FN in OriginalIL2, I would not be playing this game anymore. LA5FN-7 and the YAKS-9-3 are the best planes for a newcomers to start with. And especially LA7with3xcannon as it has great firepower.

It is a great plane when you start playing IL2, it is easy to handle and does not require many advanced features to fly well. However once you learn to play, you start to find that other planes do the same job better so you switch. However this doesn't mean that it is a plane just for noobs, because after you have gained experience in flying, you will find it as a good plane, but in no way overpowering.

I don't know why people say that, but LA7 is one of the weakest planes in terms of damage it can receive before it is unflyable. Most times even a single shot from any cannon on it, always makes big disasters and you have to bail out.

zugfuhrer
02-04-2004, 08:22 AM
I agree that many vvs planes are too good to make this game real fun and realistic and it makes many players to give up flying okl planes.

I remember the USAF or was it Eurofighter where the russians aam had a hitpercentage of aprox 1/10 and the Natomissiles hit 2 of 3.
This passed the game to the categori forgotten flightsimulators.

Slush69
02-04-2004, 08:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by zugfuhrer:
I agree that many vvs planes are too good to make this game real fun and realistic and it makes many players to give up flying okl planes.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Case in point regarding my earlier posts.

/slush

BTW: German for "Platoon Leader" would be Zugfuehrer with an 'e'. Without it the average Fritz grunt would just go "was?!" http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://www.wilcks.dk/crap/Eurotrolls.gif

lrrp22
02-04-2004, 09:36 AM
Robban,

I agree. I think the energy retention modeling is the Achilles' heal of this otherwise brilliant sim. The ability of light, low wing-loaded aircraft to out 'E' fight the more traditional energy fighters in all areas but terminal dive speed makes the use of proper energy tactics very difficult. Diving away from a determined La-7 (or Yak-3, or Ki 84) in a Dora (or Mustang, or T'bolt) usually results in the La-7 immediately re-materializing on your six a moment after leveling out. Unless the La-7 follows you beyond its break-up speed the dive (and/or zoom) will do you little good.

When you add those factors to the La's "generous" turn-rate, roll-rate and engine overheat modeling, the energy fighter must rely more on an overwhelming tactical advantage than the use of prudent energy fighting tactics.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by robban75:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SUPERAEREO:
Kirule2: I still think that The Fw.190 is a pretty tough adversary when flown in a purely B&Z way.
The La.7 surely is nimble and fast, but also she shears her wings pretty quickly if you don't watch her speed in a dive, and therefore cannot dive with nor zoom back up with a 190.
Salute!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The D-9 is a great BnZ fighter, the Fw 190A's are average. In a zoom climb the La-7 can beat the D-9 and P-51 by 100-200 meters and only the K-4 can best it. The La-7's dive speed has been increased to 810km/h IAS, the Yak-3 can dive at 850km/h IAS, (compared to D-9 900km/h IAS, P-51 910km/h IAS). So there's really not all that easy to outdive an La-7 anymore, especially since it has a great E retention and zoom climb. I'd also like someone to back up the 180deg/sec rollrates of the La-7 and Yak's planes.

http://members.chello.se/unni/Dora-9-3.JPG

When it comes to aircombat, I'd rather be lucky than good any day!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

p1ngu666
02-04-2004, 09:59 AM
la7 was a light plane which helps
the cannons tip the plane down, which can make aiming hard (for me atleast)
and once the la overheats its hard to cool down, has bad heatsoak. does take a while to get there tho.
be glad we dont have the la11 or 9 or whatever
4 23mm cannons like off the il2 i think
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
there is probably something dodgy with the diving, u cant get good seporation from it, whatever planes u have :\

JG7_Rall
02-04-2004, 10:32 AM
Yeah, I'm not going to comment about energy retention, because quite frankly I never flew it, and while physics will tell you that it should bleed a bit more E in those turns on a dime, I just don't know. But, the diving ability, whether it breaks up or not, is overmodeled, IMO.

People give this plane's great turning ability credit to the fact that it was composed of wood. Now, if it's so light, why does it dive so well? I fly the T-bolt and the 190 series, and there's no way that thing should be able to blatenly just stay on your 6 in a dive like it does in this game. Diving with those models in real life was a great way to disengage enemies. It is not the case in FB.

Also, you can bring down a jug with a couple of Mk 108 shells, but the La-7 takes the same if not more damage? The jug WAS the strongest plane in WWII. How can a *wooden* plane take as much damage as this beast? Please don't try to defend this with "u noob u cn't shoot! aim for teh wing tiips yo!" because no matter where you shoot with the Mk 108, it should tear that thing to shreads.

But other than that, it's pretty well modeled. Was a great plane in real life and truly is a great plane in FB. Those are the only gripes I've got against it. I don't fly it because I think people should fly what they love, not what's good. And if you love the La-7....I wont go there http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

S!

robban75
02-04-2004, 11:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p1ngu666:
once the la overheats its hard to cool down, has bad heatsoak. does take a while to get there tho.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here's a test I did comparing overheat times between the D-9 and La-7. This is overheat times from flying level and not climbing.

Time from engine spool up at runway, till overheat warnig comes(OHW), till notable engine damage(NED), to total engine damage(TED).

D-9

OHW - 2min
NED - 4:40
TED - 8:10

La-7

OHW - 3:40
NED - 8:09
TED - 9:26

Time till overheat warning during a max power climb. Odd, since it takes longer to overheat in a climb?

La-7 - 5:30
D-9 - 3:36

http://members.chello.se/unni/Dora-9-3.JPG

When it comes to aircombat, I'd rather be lucky than good any day!

gates123
02-04-2004, 11:04 AM
I'll try and make my opinion short. I hit a la-5f last night with 4-5 108 rds and a flurry of good bursts of mg fire from point blank range in a k4. After a few explosions and parts flying off not only was he still in the air but was able to continue the fight just long enough for his buddy to come rescue him. Most overmodeled damage resitent plane in the game. I can really care less about e retention/acceleration because who knows..maybe its historically correct. Unless Oleg modeled this plane with titatium theres no way it should've stayed in the air let alone continue to turn tight. Its 10x easier to shoot down a p-47 then a la5/la7 and I'm not buying that.

p1ngu666
02-04-2004, 11:50 AM
i dunno how the compartive coolin of those planes should be
but i know ive had a strong case of heatsoak with the la7
once it overheats it stays hot
odd about climb:/

Sultan_of_Swing
02-04-2004, 12:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GoodKn1ght:
i cant stand noobs, i cant stand easy settings, and i cant stand the la7. they all go hand in hand.

"Friends don't let friends fly arcade"
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm curious....were you ever a noob? Were you born being the great aviator that clearly, you think you are?

"check out guitar-George, he knows all the chords...."

VW-IceFire
02-04-2004, 01:06 PM
Just ignore him...he's always making those kind of comments. Some kind of personal crusade.

I have to agree largely on the dive point. There are plenty of planes that we've heard of that were not good divers that seem to be able to keep with the P-47, P-51, and FW190 which were all good divers and which used that tactic (especially the FW and the 47) to evade combat if need be. It seems impossible in many cases to sucessfully dive away from a La-7 although I have done it...its usually a shallow dive with already built up speed before entry and throttle maxed out. It seems that the better acceleration on the La-7 lets it dive faster (initially) than what should be a heavier faster diver.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/temp_sig1.jpg
The New IL2 Database is Coming Soon!

Osirisx9
02-04-2004, 01:40 PM
La-7s are the Roach planes of Forgotten Battles. Like Roaches they can survive an atomic blast,they are fast, they can loose part of their anatomy and still scurry about like nothing has happend, highly maneuverable, and tough to get rid of. All you have to do is enable the things and they will infest the server within a short time without encouragement. I would be too embarrased to fly that thing. Getting a kill in it takes no skill and finess at all. It's intrstesting how many individuals actually feel good about themselves when they shoot someone down flying the thing and on the otherhand get pissed off when you shoot them down with any other less Uber aircraft. But heck as long as the Flying Roach is enabled someone will be more than happy to fly it and those of us who fly the more challenging aircraft will just keep getting better while using it for target practice.

Osiris_X9

BfHeFwMe
02-04-2004, 01:43 PM
It's not an inertia problem, it's an engine/prop modeling lack. No way your going to ever dive a prop with your engine firewalled, overspeeds are not modeled in game. Inertia modeling apart, the La-7 has the best power acceleration in the game, in a dive your not going to beat it, real or not.

Until you fix that, talking inertia is mute.

Speco
02-04-2004, 02:28 PM
After reading the entaire 4 pages of posts here I cannt help but to ask all whiners one thing:

Was the La-7 like that in RL???

Becouse all of you didnt bother to give one shread of of evidence to prove your statments. Give us the evidence to support your claims!!!

BTW. I fly the hurri mk.IIc and that La-7 seems to get shreded to pices just like any other plane out there.

VW-IceFire
02-04-2004, 03:17 PM
According to Oleg in this interview (http://www.mudmovers.com/adorante/il2_oleg_07.3.htm) the Delta Wood on the LaGG (and to a lesser extent the La's) is actually sturdier than the aluminum construction on German aircraft. Seems kind of hard to imagine but I suppose its possible. I guess we should see if I can find data to prove or disprove that theory...

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/temp_sig1.jpg
The New IL2 Database is Coming Soon!

Steaky_361st
02-04-2004, 03:25 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by SUPERAEREO:
The La.7 surely is nimble and fast, but also she shears her wings pretty quickly if you don't watch her speed in a dive, and therefore cannot dive with nor zoom back up with a 190.

[QUOTE]

Hmm this is odd...they dive with and faster than P47s...I personally have had La7s outdiving me when im going 900 kph and following me after i had to pull out..and gaining and gaining until they shoot 1 round of 20mm and kill my pilot.

I apologize for the whine...and i am in great thanks to Oleg & Co...but i just cant help it http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

BfHeFwMe
02-04-2004, 03:45 PM
Oh, common, next your going to tell us it was online and human manned. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Once again, griping about AI issues, wake up, it's a universal problem with AI. The better the performance of the plane, the more glaring the AI uberness.

Does anyone really expect to out turn perfect lead turning AI in superior fighters with an enhanced AI FM advantage?

Funny how nearly all the biatching experten here fail to disclose any of even the most basic conditions, such as AI or human flown. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif

Antisub
02-04-2004, 03:47 PM
I wanna spit! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Somehow, this all sounds familiar. Oh, yeah... a couple of years ago when European Air War was THE game, all the Me-109 pilots *****ed constantly about the newbies and their Spitfires. And before that, the Air Warrior 109 pilots were constantly crying about the dweebs and THEIR Spits. And back in the real WW2, when asked by Hitler what he needed to win the air war in Britain, didn't that Luftwaffe Colonel say "Some Spitfires"? Thank God we don't have to listen to that argument on top of this La-7 one. Oh, wait... we do. When does the new mod Battle of Britain come out? Here we go again.

All you armchair experts need to remember that you ARE armchair pilots. I've yet to actually black out from pulling too many g's at my computer, I've never had to worry about overstressing my desk, I've never had to worry about actually DYING. I read a story, reported by ground observers in a small French town, of a P-51 fighting ten Me-109s at tree-top height, at stall-speeds, and winning. How? He put the fear of God in them. He killed or wounded a few of them, and the rest backed off to safe distances or bugged out completely. That could never happen online, where we all fly like suicidal maniacs because if we die we just hop into another plane.

If you want to put some reality into the game, stop whinning about plane specs and create consequences for getting killed. Maybe Ubisoft (or hyperlobby, or wherever) could automatically delete the login of pilots who die. It would just take a few minutes to create another, but after a few times I think people would be a lot more careful in their flying, a lot more conservative in their combat decisions. Short of that, if your 3Ghz 1600x1200 T-1 line Me-109 can't outfly my 700Mhz 800x600 modem La-7, that's just too bad. I can't wait to hop into my La-7 and fly off to merry ol'England to be first in line for my spankin' new Spit.

antisub

JG7_Rall
02-04-2004, 03:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>when asked by Hitler what he needed to win the air war in Britain, didn't that Luftwaffe Colonel say "Some Spitfires"?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah yes! That was in the film Battle of Britain...I think it was Goering who said "Men, I am here to help, if there's anything you need, just say. Foehn? Falke?"

Then Falke said "Yes, sir! A squadron of spitfires!"

Then..Goering didn't look too pleased..

Yeah. I've seen the movie WAY to many times. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

blabla0001
02-04-2004, 03:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by zugfuhrer:
I agree that many vvs planes are too good to make this game real fun and realistic and it makes many players to give up flying okl planes.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Instead of whining about the good things of the VVS planes it might help if they found out their weaknesses and exploit them so they can beat them.

GoodKn1ght
02-04-2004, 04:17 PM
man if oleg ever listened to us and discovered the truth and made the game realistic (which he wont), im betting capp bites the gun. just a guess.

"Friends don't let friends fly arcade"

blabla0001
02-04-2004, 04:21 PM
I can beat your uber VVS birds in a LW crate, so what am I supposed to be biting?

GoodKn1ght
02-04-2004, 04:26 PM
ur on dude this has gone on long enough. time to end it once and for all. wierd though i never see you on hl, ur all talk bro. page me on hl in about a week when ill be playing again.

"Friends don't let friends fly arcade"

blabla0001
02-04-2004, 04:32 PM
Your all troll goodnight, every topic in here you pop in with lame remarks towards other people here and put them down because they like to fly allied planes.

You must have one sad life and no friends to play with.

GoodKn1ght
02-04-2004, 04:48 PM
so the answer is no? i thought so.

"Friends don't let friends fly arcade"

blabla0001
02-04-2004, 04:57 PM
You may find me online if you play on other servers then greatergreen, I am not going to page you since I only like to talk with friends and not with little trolls that feel the need to put down other people because they fly allied planes.

Fehler
02-04-2004, 05:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Fehler Wrote:

For you guys that like to fly the La-7, do you really believe in your hearts that the thing was THAT energy efficient?

When you shoot someone down in it, do you REALLY think you are a good pilot?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I guess the answer to both of the above is yes.. OK, no need discussing it further then, I must be wrong.

I never meant this post to start some revolution or fist fight among the forum crowd. But I DO find it amusing how DEFENSIVE some of you get; like I challenged your manhood or something.

Guess what though.. I still have more respect for the people that jump into the less uber planes in DF servers and slug it out. They dont need the La-7 to compensate for their little tallywacker I guess.. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Oh, same goes for the LW guys...
Choice: 109 F-2, F-4, G-2, and see 99% of you pick the G-2. -OR- those annoying A-9's with the 15 inch battleship cannon in the wings.. LOL

Lighten up people, it's only a game. Fun, frustrating, fascinating.. it's only a game.

And I cant wait for coop's in a Bf-110! I sure hope they didnt noobify that. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/FehlerSig.gif
http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/9JG54.html

GoodKn1ght
02-04-2004, 05:56 PM
I am not going to page you since I only like to talk with friends and not with little trolls that feel the need to put down other people because they fly allied planes.
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

"Friends don't let friends fly arcade"

Istreliteli
02-04-2004, 06:51 PM
There seems to be a stereotype that VVS planes had to be crap and that the luftwaffe were abunch of glorious teutonic knights fighting off hordes of evil russians, so, of course, the La-7 and yak-3 couldnt have been what they were in FB, they had to be wwi biplanes, at best.
Truth is, a russian pilot would be lucky to get a Yak-1 or maybe a LaGG-3, though most of the time hed get an I-16.
To simulate realism, i suggest planesets be modeled with 109G2's and some early 190s with I-16 and Yak-1/LaGG-3 as the only choices for VVS.
Now, when you realize that not every soviet pilot could use "ubercraft" and had to use the aforementioned crap, its safe to admit that by the end of the damn 5 year war the soviets could come up with something that performed like a la-7.
Hell, kozhedub didnt get a la-7, he stuck with his la-5fn, yak-3's and la-7s werent that numerous in 45.

p1ngu666
02-04-2004, 07:56 PM
if these vvs planes are surposed tobe crap, how on earth did they wrestle air supoirity, and then batter the lw into the ground?
alot of ppl think the typhoon was altimate tank buster, but the number downed was vaste, like nearly all of em sooner or later..
if u want overmodeled, check the he111. that thing sucks up bullets like giant bullett sponge.

SlickStick
02-04-2004, 08:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Hell, kozhedub didnt get a la-7, he stuck with his la-5fn, yak-3's and la-7s werent that numerous in 45.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"In July 1944 Kozhedub was posted to the 1st Belorussian Front as vice commander to the 176th Guards Fighter Regiment, and received La-7 No. 27, in which he scored his final 17 victories."

Interesting fact I never knew about Kozhedub:

"Apart from these 62 victories, Ivan Kozhedub also was forced to shoot down two U.S. P-51 Mustangs that mistakenly attacked his La-7 on one occasion. Both these P-51 losses have been verified by USAAF sources."

Poor Mustangs. They didn't realize they were attacking an Ace in an LA7. That happens allot on HyperLobby and UBI everyday for me.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

___________________________
çk"*¯k 2004

http://imageshack.us/files/sigSpitIX.JPG
Coming Soon to a Six near you...http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

WUAF_Badsight
02-04-2004, 08:38 PM
ok people here are forgetting a few basic facts

in the object viewer you will see some stats about the LA-7

like turn time

but in FB that stat is bettered

also the LA series were famous for overheating

but in FB the LA series last longer than planes that were not as well knowen for it (every motor ever made would overheat given proper treatment , the LA's on the other hand had this trait as a operating difficuty)

like LA-7 v Bf109

like LA-7 v FW-190

yes wooden A/C were constructed extremely cleverly

they were not simple things .... & yes wooden A/C were lighter & handeled small MG fire better than alloy A/C

but what fighter EVER handeled multiple Mk108 hits

the LA series in FB handel cannon hits better than most other fighters ..... prove me wrong

BTW .... im not

the LA series were good A/C in the sky , they handeled nice with good controls & were relativly easy on the pilot

new pilots also felt confident in them .... go read & you will see its true

we hear about how great the Spitfire was in western media but all the time from the wars end to now the LA series were just as good if not better turn fighters than that famous british A/C

but in FB there flight performance is above there stated performance even

E retention & low overheat are moddeled EXTREMELY well for the LA series

GunDance
02-04-2004, 09:30 PM
I've flown online ever since IL2 came out,on hyper and ubi. I've found that most of the la/yak3/ players start using the noob planes and either lose interest or branch out.

When I fly online I always look for someone flying something non-noob and try and get in an engagement with them.

Often, it means fighting or running away from the hordes of yak/la pilots http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif but once you get that alt you get to meet/fight someone that actually likes this game for what it is.

[This message was edited by Tully__ on Thu February 05 2004 at 02:24 AM.]

S77th-MOC
02-04-2004, 11:41 PM
well i fly manly the fw A 9 and i normaly out run every plane that chases me. only a hand full of time \s an la has catched up to me. normaly i can run from then and slowly out run them. only problem i have with the la is that it can take like 4- 6 cannon shots and live but i have read that the fw pwned them because of the cannon. and only thing i HATE about the fw is that you get shot one time and the plane handles like ****. even if my body is shot witch is weird. the plane eats bullets but it normaly if vary hard to handle about 10 times harder then normal. but i love the fw and i woun't change http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

WUAF_Badsight
02-05-2004, 12:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Istreliteli:

Hell, kozhedub didnt get a la-7, he stuck with his la-5fn, yak-3's and la-7s werent that numerous in 45.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


LA-7 were ready for the VVS from september 44 onwards

over 5200 LA-7 made

1945 LA-7s were different to 1944 LA-7s

MatuDa_
02-05-2004, 01:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WUAF_Badsight:
ok people here are forgetting a few basic facts

in the object viewer you will see some stats about the LA-7

like turn time

but in FB that stat is bettered

also the LA series were famous for overheating

but in FB the LA series last longer than planes that were not as well knowen for it (every motor ever made would overheat given proper treatment , the LA's on the other hand had this trait as a operating difficuty)

like LA-7 v Bf109

like LA-7 v FW-190

yes wooden A/C were constructed extremely cleverly

they were not simple things .... & yes wooden A/C were lighter & handeled small MG fire better than alloy A/C

but what fighter EVER handeled multiple Mk108 hits

the LA series in FB handel cannon hits better than most other fighters ..... prove me wrong

BTW .... im not

the LA series were good A/C in the sky , they handeled nice with good controls & were relativly easy on the pilot

new pilots also felt confident in them .... go read & you will see its true

we hear about how great the Spitfire was in western media but all the time from the wars end to now the LA series were just as good if not better turn fighters than that famous british A/C

but in FB there flight performance is above there stated performance even

E retention & low overheat are moddeled EXTREMELY well for the LA series<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good post Badsight, agree with you on all of above.

Rajvosa
02-05-2004, 01:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG7_Rall:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>when asked by Hitler what he needed to win the air war in Britain, didn't that Luftwaffe Colonel say "Some Spitfires"?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah yes! That was in the film Battle of Britain...I think it was Goering who said "Men, I am here to help, if there's anything you need, just say. Foehn? Falke?"

Then Falke said "Yes, sir! A squadron of spitfires!"

Then..Goering didn't look too pleased..

Yeah. I've seen the movie WAY to many times. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Actually, this is based on a true event. F¶hn is M¶lders and Falke is Galland.
When asked M¶lders wanted improved Bf 109. Galland replied he wanted Spitfires. That guy had some big COJONES, my friends. This was just one of the many times he bumped heads with G¶ring.

Golf GTI Edition 2.0 16v (Rest In Pieces!)

Slush69
02-05-2004, 02:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rajvosa:
Actually, this is based on a true event. F¶hn is M¶lders and Falke is Galland.
When asked M¶lders wanted improved Bf 109. Galland replied he wanted Spitfires. That guy had some big COJONES, my friends. This was just one of the many times he bumped heads with G¶ring.

Golf GTI Edition 2.0 16v (Rest In Pieces!)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's one of the most misused quotes on this board. When actually asked about it after the war, Galland explained that it was a reaction against G¶rings order that the Bf-109's should fly in close escort of the bombers. A turnfighter like the Spitfire would be much more suitable for that then an E-fighter like the 109. That was the point of Gallands reply.

cheers/slush

http://www.wilcks.dk/crap/Eurotrolls.gif

[This message was edited by Slush69 on Thu February 05 2004 at 04:14 AM.]

Rajvosa
02-05-2004, 02:39 AM
I stand corrected! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Golf GTI Edition 2.0 16v (Rest In Pieces!)

blabla0001
02-05-2004, 03:38 AM
"also the LA series were famous for overheating"

The only thing I read about the LA series regarding heating problems was that the cockpit heating had issues and the pilots complained that it was too hot inside the cockpit and that it was corrected.

Stalker58
02-05-2004, 05:19 AM
La5F and La5FN have limited WEP (1850hp) form max. 2 min.La 7 has better cooling, 10 min on WEP was possible, better cooling that acually enabled the powerful AS82 for max. horsepower was the most significant impovement over La5F/FN series, but that is not modeled too good in FB...

Altitude, speed, manoeuvre and.... CRASH!

MiloMorai
02-05-2004, 05:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stalker58:
La5F and La5FN have limited WEP (1850hp) form max. 2 min.La 7 has better cooling, 10 min on WEP was possible, better cooling that acually enabled the powerful AS82 for max. horsepower was the most significant impovement over La5F/FN series, but that is not modeled too good in FB...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You sure about that? My references say the ASh M-82FN of the same power output was used in both a/c.



Long live the Horse Clans.

Rajvosa
02-05-2004, 05:41 AM
About overheating...

I'm playing the Kuban 1943 campaing in La-5F. During most of the flight I run the engine at 100% with forsazh on, with closed radiator and I've never ever managed to overheat the engine. Clearly a bug/overmodelling, since IRL La-5 was plagued by overheating, by both engine and cockpit.

While I'm at it, near the airfield there is a steep mountain and all of my wing mates (except my wingman that follows me) manage to crash, every single time. So, I lose 2-3 wingmen on every mission. Realistic? Yup, very! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

Golf GTI Edition 2.0 16v (Rest In Pieces!)

michapma
02-05-2004, 10:05 AM
I've only read through the middle of page 3 so far, but I want to make an observation. It's one that I've made once or twice before.

I find it highly ironic that the same virtual pilots whose FB experience consists largely or nearly entirely of piling into dogfight server after dogfight server will go to forums and fervently discuss the details of flight and damage models, holding them to the standard of reality. If you don't fight under realistic/historic conditions, why insist on having the most realistic/historic flight and damage models?

Some people have already tried to make this point in other words (speaking here of the first 3 pages, anyway).

Cheers,
Mike

http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/69giap/fileadmin/Image_Archive/badges/69giap_badge_chap.jpg (http://giap.webhop.info)

The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/) | Forgotten Skies (http://www.forgottenskies.com/)

Bogun
02-05-2004, 10:52 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MiloMorai:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stalker58:
La5F and La5FN have limited WEP (1850hp) form max. 2 min.La 7 has better cooling, 10 min on WEP was possible, better cooling that acually enabled the powerful AS82 for max. horsepower was the most significant impovement over La5F/FN series, but that is not modeled too good in FB...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You sure about that? My references say the ASh M-82FN of the same power output was used in both a/c.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Milo, Stalker58 ment forsazhe was avalable for up to 10 min on ASh-82FN for La-7.
By the way - Manual for La-5FN (with ASh-82FN engine) said - 5 min max forsazhe, not 2 min.


M-82F
Weight - 870kg
Take-off power - 1700hp @ 0m (@2500rpm, @1140mm.Hg.) nominal to 1600m.
Nominal power - 1676hp @ 1650m (@2400rpm, @950mm.Hg.)
Nominal power - 1540hp @ 2050m (@2400rpm, @950mm.Hg.)
Nominal power - 1450hp @ 4650m (@2400rpm, @950mm.Hg.)
Nominal power - 1330hp @ 5400m (@2400rpm, @950mm.Hg.)

ASh-82FN
Weight - 900kg
Take-off power - 1850hp @ 0m (@2500rpm, @1180mm.Hg.) forsage up to 2000m.
Nominal power - 1630hp @ 1650m (@2400rpm, @1000mm.Hg.)
Nominal power - 1430hp @ 4650m (@2400rpm, @1000mm.Hg.)

Regards,

AKA_Bogun
http://www.akawardogs.com/

http://img5.photobucket.com/albums/v22/Bogun/Sevastopol.jpg

"The best fighters I met in combat were the American P-51 Mustang and Russian Yak-9U. Both of those types obviously exceeded all Bf109 variants in performance, including the 'K'. The Mustang was unmatched in altitude performance, while the Yak-9U was champion in rate of climb and maneuverability."

- Walter Wolfrum