PDA

View Full Version : Q4Brits: Late-model Spitfire vs Hawker Tempest II fighter performance?



ultraHun
11-25-2007, 10:52 AM
Always liked the late-model Spitfires (MKXVIII, Mk 22) and the Hawker Tempest II (centaurus radial enigne) for their clean and elegant lines.

As both are mid/late-40's prop fighters, I wonder which model the RAF found superior. Does anybody know?

EDIT: everybody corrected to anybody

ultraHun
11-25-2007, 10:52 AM
Always liked the late-model Spitfires (MKXVIII, Mk 22) and the Hawker Tempest II (centaurus radial enigne) for their clean and elegant lines.

As both are mid/late-40's prop fighters, I wonder which model the RAF found superior. Does anybody know?

EDIT: everybody corrected to anybody

Xiolablu3
11-25-2007, 06:25 PM
I believe they were 'preffered' in different ways, the same as with the Me109 and FW190.

Me109 and Spitfire , Very good up high and mid alts, manouverable, light and small, great climbers, OK firepower, not great load carrying.

Tempest and Fw190 , very good at low to mid altitude, generally less manouverable but generally faster than the Spit/109, Very heavy firepower, could carry very heavy loads for single engined fighters.

SO you see, both are good at different jobs.

A Tempest or FW190 would not be as good as Spitfire/109 as a defending interceptor because their climb isnt as good. However it would be great on the attack.

Xiolablu3
11-26-2007, 08:00 AM
I should add that when I say that the FW190 is less 'manouverable' I mean in the classic 'close-in' WW1 style dogfight.



The FW190 was very manouverable, just not in turning circles, which are arguably most important in a WW1 style dogfight, and the Me109 and SPit are both much better in this respect.

I think I remember a mock dogfight contest between FW190's and Me109's in WW2, and the Me109's won out easily.

However it all depends on the tactics used. The FW190 and Tempest will excell if you avoid the classic close-in dogfight and instead use their high speed and firepower in a B&Z/flip and dive if attacked style.


EDIT: Found a translation of the Me109 vs FW190 mock dogfight :-

------------------

Aircraft Comparison FW 190A-9 and Bf 109 AS/MW 50 - From A German Report
HP 5156
Report from JG 11 on 29th [October 1944] on mock air battle between Fw 190A-9 and Bf 109 AS/MW 50.

A Schwarm of Me 109 at 8,000 metres climbed up to attack a Rotte of Fw 190 at 10,000 metres. On the turn with 1.1 boost, the Me 109 Schwarm out climbed the Fw 190 Rotte by about 200 metres and at the same time without fully opened throttles and not flying flat out, they out turned the Fw 190 Rotte.

First attack was from above and behind with 1.1 boost and flaps retracted and a normal steep turn without opening to maximum possible speed, the Fw 190A-9 was easily overtaken and out turned.

Second attack from behind and below on the number one of the Rotte, aircraft was easily overtaken, out turned and outstripped in the inside turn.

On full throttle it is easily possible to out climb the A-9 without losing position since speed can be reduced by throttling back and doing very tight turns.

---------------------


COnclusion : As long as the Me109 takes the FW190 to high altitude, it has little trouble winning the fight. (Same result is likely between the Spitfire and Tempest, and also Spit vs FW190)

Remember, however that this is when the FW190 are FORCED to fight. In a real battle a FW190 or Tempest would simply dive and bug out rather than follow the SPit or Me109 to high altitude and try to dogfight with it.

stathem
11-26-2007, 08:22 AM
I think superior, within the context of the immediate post-war aftermath is very difficult to quantify given the lack of an aggressor.

What you have there is effectively three different aircraft. The Spit 18 and 22 have different wings, the XVIII being a properly sorted out update of the Mk XIV.

As you probably know, the Tempest II follows the Tempest line in being a spectacular performer low down, whereas the two Spitfires would be superior in a high and very high altitude role. The Tempest II was particularly slated for the continuation of the war in the Far East, with the greater durability of the radial engine and better range (I think).

So, to the question of which the RAF would find better; if one were to postulate an immediate continuation of war with the Soviet Union, the Tempest II may well have become the preferred aircraft, since low down would be the region the Soviets would have been most numerous, and where they would have to have been fought. The Spitfires would have possibly been lacking a role, until such time as the Soviet copy of the B-29 started making an appearance.

But of course all three aircraft were designed and developed during the war with an eye on the current conflict, and all three were in second place to the new jets.

Bremspropeller
11-26-2007, 08:30 AM
I'd go with the Temp Mk II - has the better package to me.


OT:

Which were the major differences between the Temp II and the Fury?

stathem
11-26-2007, 08:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bremspropeller:
I'd go with the Temp Mk II - has the better package to me.


OT:

Which were the major differences between the Temp II and the Fury? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Fury had a section of wing removed; shorter wingspan

WOLFMondo
11-26-2007, 08:36 AM
The Fury had part of the inner wing removed, cockpit raised, a revised tail section and was fully monocoque.

stathem
11-26-2007, 08:43 AM
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/griffnav/FL2007/FL2007o.jpg

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/griffnav/FL2007/FL2007i.jpg

VW-IceFire
11-26-2007, 04:07 PM
Thanks for the awesome pictures! Gotta love the Sea Fury...its a beautiful final edition to the Hawker propeller powered legacy.

ultraHun
11-27-2007, 05:19 AM
Thanks to all for your comments and especially to stathem for the fine pictures posted.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

In case you come across a book or a site with some original reports from that era, would be nice if you posted it at the zoo.

One question still: Did Eric Brown review these birds in some book? I will then lookput for it.

Kurfurst__
11-27-2007, 05:31 AM
OFF : Does anybody know where a full text of A-9/G6AS comparison can be found...?

stathem
11-27-2007, 06:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ultraHun:
Thanks to all for your comments and especially to stathem for the fine pictures posted.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

In case you come across a book or a site with some original reports from that era, would be nice if you posted it at the zoo.

One question still: Did Eric Brown review these birds in some book? I will then lookput for it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've literally just finshed Wings on My Sleeve, by Eric Brown.

He doesn't really make much mention any of the birds you were asking about, although he had a lot of hours on the Sea Fury (being C.O. of 802 Sq. when they were operating Sea Furies before the Korean War), rating it as a very fine aircraft.

Glad you all enjoyed the pics. I love to see those end of the era aircraft, like the Fury and the Bearcat, at airshows. Looking forward to the RRG Korea SoW sim for the Sea Fury (and Seafire 46) alone. Presuming they do the FAA aspect.

ploughman
11-27-2007, 06:59 AM
I've yet to detect a sniff of FAA for Galba, Saqson's been looking for details of Meteor F.8 and FR8 though.

stathem
11-27-2007, 08:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ultraHun:
In case you come across a book or a site with some original reports from that era, would be nice if you posted it at the zoo.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, you can't go to far wrong looking here (http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/)

There's a ton of stuff there. If you look carefully it has tactical trials of the Tempest II, plus some data on the Mk21. Can't see anything for the Mk22, nor any direct comparison between the two.

Also, check the nice pdf on the Sea Fury. Which would probably come in very handy if one was, for instance, modelling the Fury.

WOLFMondo
11-27-2007, 10:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ultraHun:

One question still: Did Eric Brown review these birds in some book? I will then lookput for it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Between 'Wings of the Luftwaffe' and 'Wings of the weird and wonderful' it covers many of the planes he evaluated and assessed. 'Wings on my sleeve' doesn't cover specific aircraft but he does list his favorites though and is a great read and insight into the worlds most accomplished test pilot.