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anarchy52
06-17-2006, 01:59 AM
From http://www.airpages.ru/cgi-bin/epg.pl?nav=lw70&page=bf109g2
References
* "The German Imprint on the History of Russian Aviation " /D.A. Sobolev, D.B. Khazanov/
* "Encyclopedia of military engineering " /Aerospace Publising/
* "The air war" /#60, 61/

Midway through the war, new German fighters remained in the focus of the Soviet aviation command element. Moreover, there was the necessity to inform Stalin about the improved Messerschmitts. On 23 October 1942, Red Army Air Forces Chief Engineer A. K. Repin reported this to the Leader: "Recently, modified Bf 109F-4 and Bf 109G-2 fighters have appeared at the front. Based on information from line units, they have greater level and vertical speeds. According to the Red Army Main Intelligence Directorate, these aircraft can reach a speed of 625-650 km/h at an altitude of 6700 meters. I would kindly ask you to task the People's Commissariat of the Aviation Industry to do the following: by spring 1943, design and build a single-engine fighter with a speed on the order of 680-700 km/h at altitudes of 6000-7000 meters, maximum speed at ground level of 550-560 km/h, technical flight weight not exceeding 3300 kilograms, and with metal wings".
However, a captured Bf 109 had to be tested in order to know both the strong and weak points of the new fighter. Such was the task set before the institute leadership in late autumn 1942. Thus, as soon as the news about the I/JG3 Group Messerschmitt captured near Stalingrad was received, Captain A. G. Proshakov flew there at once. On 25 December, after simple repairs, he managed to fly the trophy to the institute repair shops. In early January 1943, Engineer-Captain A. S. Rozanov began examining Bf 109G-2 No. 13903.
The Institute's chief assigned the task to compare the German machine with the best Soviet experimental and series-produced fighters, above all, the Yak-1 Yak-7b, La-5, Yak-9, as well as the Yak-1 M-106 and N. N. Polikarpov's 1-185 The inspection showed that the new Messerschmitt differed from previoush examined Bf 109F-2 No. 9209 in its more powerful DB 605A engine, additiona underwing 20mm MG 151 cannon, armor-glass windshield, and 18mm Duralumin plate behind the fuel tank.
Test flights by seasoned test pilots like Colonel P. M. Stefanovskiy, Captain A. G. Proshakov, and Captain A. G. Kubyshkin demonstrated that it was hard for Soviet series-produced fighters to equal the Bf 109G Gustav in combat. The power plant on the German aircraft was more convenient to control, bu the view from the cockpit, especially to the rear, turned out to be much worse than that of, let's say, the Yak-9. Engineer-Lieutenant Colonel A. N. Frolov, Chiei of the Fighter Department, noted how painstakingly German designers anc engineers sealed the construction elements. Slots on control surfaces were reduced to a minimum, motor cowlings fitted tightly against the fuselage, ant: the fuselage had rubber gaskets.
Only the experimental I-185 fighter could compete with the Bf 109G-2 in rate of climb and only the MiG-3 could reach a service ceiling of 11,250 meters (the best series-produced examples could climb to 11,500 m). The Messerschmitt salvo weight was 4.67 kilograms per second.32 Underwing cannon considerabh reduced the horizontal maneuverability of the aircraft, which we called the "five-pointer". The German designation was Bf 109G-2/R6. It took the German fighter 22.6 seconds to complete a bank at an altitude of 1000 meters (similar to the series-produced La-5) and most Soviet fighters could perform a run-in from the rear during the second or third bank.
Aerial combat between the Bf 109G-2/R6 and La-5 was simulated at the Air Forces Scientific Research Institute. The Lavochkin had improved visibility and its weight was reduced by 160 kilograms. At low altitudes, it was flying with the M-82 engine in afterburner. Lieutenant Colonel N. I. Shaurov, who was evaluating the aircraft from the tactical point of view, came to the conclusion that the upgraded Soviet airplane could successfully counter the Messerschmitt at low and medium altitudes. He thought that its poor visibility to the rear and the danger of involuntary entry into a spin when the stick was overbalanced during a bank gave the La-5 an equal chance, even in vertical aerial combat. In a prolonged dive, the Bf 109G-2 was somewhat faster, but a Lavochkin recovering from a dive could overtake the German owing to a steeper trajectory.
Institute Chief General P. A. Losyukov in his report on testing the "five-pointer" Bf 109G-2 noted that the test results had to be disseminated to Red Army Air Forces line units. "In order to combat the new Messerschmitt successfully, there is an urgent necessity to use the TsAGI recommendations to improve the aerodynamics of domestic series-produced fighters and to accelerate production of Yak-1 and Yak-9 airplanes with the M-106 engine and the La-5 powered by the M-82 NV (with direct injection)," the general noted. Losyukov also drew the attention of the People's Commissariat of the Aviation Industry leadership to the necessity to eliminate defects degrading the combat qualities of our fighters.
The test results had an impact on development of the domestic aircraft industry. The military wrote to People's Commissar Shakhurin, asking him:
1. In order to increase horizontal and vertical speeds of domestic fighters, oblige chief designers comrades Shvetsov, Klimov, and Mikulin to install hydraulically driven superchargers on M-71, M-82, M-106, M-107, AM-39, and AM-42 engines. Recommend use of an automatic hydraulic clutch control unit similar to the one on theDB605A/l.
2. "Free" the pilot from the requirement to constantly monitor the power plant temperature during aerial combat and oblige chief designers comrades Yakovlev and Lavochkin to design and install automatic devices regulating the position of radiator shutters and cowl flaps to reduce drag by using a more rational way to open the shutters regulating the temperature.

anarchy52
06-17-2006, 01:59 AM
From http://www.airpages.ru/cgi-bin/epg.pl?nav=lw70&page=bf109g2
References
* "The German Imprint on the History of Russian Aviation " /D.A. Sobolev, D.B. Khazanov/
* "Encyclopedia of military engineering " /Aerospace Publising/
* "The air war" /#60, 61/

Midway through the war, new German fighters remained in the focus of the Soviet aviation command element. Moreover, there was the necessity to inform Stalin about the improved Messerschmitts. On 23 October 1942, Red Army Air Forces Chief Engineer A. K. Repin reported this to the Leader: "Recently, modified Bf 109F-4 and Bf 109G-2 fighters have appeared at the front. Based on information from line units, they have greater level and vertical speeds. According to the Red Army Main Intelligence Directorate, these aircraft can reach a speed of 625-650 km/h at an altitude of 6700 meters. I would kindly ask you to task the People's Commissariat of the Aviation Industry to do the following: by spring 1943, design and build a single-engine fighter with a speed on the order of 680-700 km/h at altitudes of 6000-7000 meters, maximum speed at ground level of 550-560 km/h, technical flight weight not exceeding 3300 kilograms, and with metal wings".
However, a captured Bf 109 had to be tested in order to know both the strong and weak points of the new fighter. Such was the task set before the institute leadership in late autumn 1942. Thus, as soon as the news about the I/JG3 Group Messerschmitt captured near Stalingrad was received, Captain A. G. Proshakov flew there at once. On 25 December, after simple repairs, he managed to fly the trophy to the institute repair shops. In early January 1943, Engineer-Captain A. S. Rozanov began examining Bf 109G-2 No. 13903.
The Institute's chief assigned the task to compare the German machine with the best Soviet experimental and series-produced fighters, above all, the Yak-1 Yak-7b, La-5, Yak-9, as well as the Yak-1 M-106 and N. N. Polikarpov's 1-185 The inspection showed that the new Messerschmitt differed from previoush examined Bf 109F-2 No. 9209 in its more powerful DB 605A engine, additiona underwing 20mm MG 151 cannon, armor-glass windshield, and 18mm Duralumin plate behind the fuel tank.
Test flights by seasoned test pilots like Colonel P. M. Stefanovskiy, Captain A. G. Proshakov, and Captain A. G. Kubyshkin demonstrated that it was hard for Soviet series-produced fighters to equal the Bf 109G Gustav in combat. The power plant on the German aircraft was more convenient to control, bu the view from the cockpit, especially to the rear, turned out to be much worse than that of, let's say, the Yak-9. Engineer-Lieutenant Colonel A. N. Frolov, Chiei of the Fighter Department, noted how painstakingly German designers anc engineers sealed the construction elements. Slots on control surfaces were reduced to a minimum, motor cowlings fitted tightly against the fuselage, ant: the fuselage had rubber gaskets.
Only the experimental I-185 fighter could compete with the Bf 109G-2 in rate of climb and only the MiG-3 could reach a service ceiling of 11,250 meters (the best series-produced examples could climb to 11,500 m). The Messerschmitt salvo weight was 4.67 kilograms per second.32 Underwing cannon considerabh reduced the horizontal maneuverability of the aircraft, which we called the "five-pointer". The German designation was Bf 109G-2/R6. It took the German fighter 22.6 seconds to complete a bank at an altitude of 1000 meters (similar to the series-produced La-5) and most Soviet fighters could perform a run-in from the rear during the second or third bank.
Aerial combat between the Bf 109G-2/R6 and La-5 was simulated at the Air Forces Scientific Research Institute. The Lavochkin had improved visibility and its weight was reduced by 160 kilograms. At low altitudes, it was flying with the M-82 engine in afterburner. Lieutenant Colonel N. I. Shaurov, who was evaluating the aircraft from the tactical point of view, came to the conclusion that the upgraded Soviet airplane could successfully counter the Messerschmitt at low and medium altitudes. He thought that its poor visibility to the rear and the danger of involuntary entry into a spin when the stick was overbalanced during a bank gave the La-5 an equal chance, even in vertical aerial combat. In a prolonged dive, the Bf 109G-2 was somewhat faster, but a Lavochkin recovering from a dive could overtake the German owing to a steeper trajectory.
Institute Chief General P. A. Losyukov in his report on testing the "five-pointer" Bf 109G-2 noted that the test results had to be disseminated to Red Army Air Forces line units. "In order to combat the new Messerschmitt successfully, there is an urgent necessity to use the TsAGI recommendations to improve the aerodynamics of domestic series-produced fighters and to accelerate production of Yak-1 and Yak-9 airplanes with the M-106 engine and the La-5 powered by the M-82 NV (with direct injection)," the general noted. Losyukov also drew the attention of the People's Commissariat of the Aviation Industry leadership to the necessity to eliminate defects degrading the combat qualities of our fighters.
The test results had an impact on development of the domestic aircraft industry. The military wrote to People's Commissar Shakhurin, asking him:
1. In order to increase horizontal and vertical speeds of domestic fighters, oblige chief designers comrades Shvetsov, Klimov, and Mikulin to install hydraulically driven superchargers on M-71, M-82, M-106, M-107, AM-39, and AM-42 engines. Recommend use of an automatic hydraulic clutch control unit similar to the one on theDB605A/l.
2. "Free" the pilot from the requirement to constantly monitor the power plant temperature during aerial combat and oblige chief designers comrades Yakovlev and Lavochkin to design and install automatic devices regulating the position of radiator shutters and cowl flaps to reduce drag by using a more rational way to open the shutters regulating the temperature.

Nubarus
06-17-2006, 02:28 AM
I really hope you don't try to imply that the Bf109 G2 R6 in this sim needs to have a better turn rate because in it's current state in can complete a 360 degree turn in 16 seconds, and yes, that is with 2x20mm gunpods.

JG52Karaya-X
06-17-2006, 02:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nubarus:
I really hope you don't try to imply that the Bf109 G2 R6 in this sim needs to have a better turn rate because in it's current state in can complete a 360 degree turn in 16 seconds, and yes, that is with 2x20mm gunpods. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Got track or are you just day-dreaming?

Kernow
06-17-2006, 03:25 AM
Whilst I doubt the 109 needs a better turn, I seriously doubt a G-2 with gunpods can turn in 16 seconds (unless you don't mean sustained turn, but bleed all your energy for one good turn). Maybe I'll try later.

Nubarus
06-17-2006, 03:27 AM
Ah, the other famous whiner arrived too.

Soooooo, how many seconds do you two need then to complete a 360 turn in a G2?

Personally I find it laughable that you even dare to complain about the G2, I mean come on, from ALL the Bf109's the G2 is the best when it comes to manueverability.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Nubarus
06-17-2006, 03:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kernow:
Whilst I doubt the 109 needs a better turn, I seriously doubt a G-2 with gunpods can turn in 16 seconds (unless you don't mean sustained turn, but bleed all your energy for one good turn). Maybe I'll try later. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It doesn't say sustained turn in the text posted, just turn.
So I just pulled the best turn I could do with the pods.

Brain32
06-17-2006, 03:34 AM
WTF? 16sec with gunpods??!? ROFL Then I guess Spits can do it in 1,6ns http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Badsight-
06-17-2006, 03:36 AM
this is the plane :

http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/8799/russianbf109g211na.jpg

tested with Gunpods on , this G2 turned about as good as the La-5 , & was better in the verticle

the main thing praised tho was its build quality

Badsight-
06-17-2006, 03:49 AM
remember , unless the russians re-worked it - this isnt a 1.42 ATA boosted G2

that power setting wasnt cleared for the DB605 untill 1943 when Bosch developed sparkplugs that would work properly

Xiolablu3
06-17-2006, 04:27 AM
I htink he is sayting that the La5 turns too well, not the 109G2 needs a beter turn.

If a La5 was similar in turn radius to a 109G2 with gunpods, and the gunpods made it turn worse, then that would mean that the game has the La5 turning too well, as WELL as being too fast. I can outturn 109's in the horizontal in a La5 quite easily.

The FW190A5 and A6 should be able to outrun a La5FN in real life according to the data in this thread

http://www.battle-fields.com/commscentre/showthread.php...hlight=tested+antons (http://www.battle-fields.com/commscentre/showthread.php?t=10155&highlight=tested+antons)

In the game the La5FN is as fast as the FW190A8 and climbs and turn much better.

Maybe the La's are a bit too good in the game, according to real life data. They are definitely too fast. We cannot base their turn time on one vague document like the one above, but I will be watching other docs and data with interest now to see what they say about La5 turn and speed.

WWMaxGunz
06-17-2006, 05:35 AM
Do I read 22.6 seconds to complete a bank at 1000m?

Should that say bank or turn? Because to bank is just rolling the wings to an angle and
over 1/4 minute to get the wings banked is glacial, like a loaded bomber turning careful.

Badsight-
06-17-2006, 06:25 AM
well max , he also says the La-5 "was flying with the M-82 engine in afterburner" , so i guess youll have to use your imagination & correct the translation to turn eh!

One13
06-17-2006, 06:50 AM
According to "Soviet Combat Aircraft Vol 1" the turn rates for versions of the La-5 were as follows-
Lagg-3M-82 (prototype la-5) = 25seconds
La-5 Production = 22.6 seconds
La-5F production = 20 seconds
La-5FN production = 19 seconds

Kocur_
06-17-2006, 08:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nubarus:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kernow:
Whilst I doubt the 109 needs a better turn, I seriously doubt a G-2 with gunpods can turn in 16 seconds (unless you don't mean sustained turn, but bleed all your energy for one good turn). Maybe I'll try later. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It doesn't say sustained turn in the text posted, just turn.
So I just pulled the best turn I could do with the pods. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Most certainly its all about sustined turn - no sense for these NII VVS guys any other turn. It was just too obvious to mention in the text.

Kurfurst__
06-17-2006, 10:20 AM
The other G-2 they got w/o gunpods did a turn in 20 secs at 1000m, at 1,3ata.
Which is awfully good to what we have in the game.

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e133/Kurfurst/109Grusturn.jpg

I suppose the two numbers are for 'clockwise' and 'counter-clockwise', but I don't speak much cyrillic, so...

G-2 gunpods
G-2 clean
G-4, the t/w was non retractable, I heard it had ETC bombrack as well but not sure of that...

anarchy52
06-17-2006, 12:05 PM
Kurfurst, could you give the reference to where that page came from, or post some more content from the same source?

Kocur_
06-17-2006, 12:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I suppose the two numbers are for 'clockwise' and 'counter-clockwise', but I don't speak much cyrillic, so... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Upper is for left turn, lower - right.

Kernow
06-17-2006, 12:46 PM
According to IL-2C the current 'clean' G-2 turns in 20.6 secs at 1000 m.

TheGozr
06-17-2006, 01:39 PM
Well once again please post Scans of real things not web sites. The plane above is a picture of the site wich pretty much don't say all .. well you have to look into the g2 versus Yak1b to see teh rest of teh story it i very interesting and the figure are very differents, make your own researches.

The 109 above is infact this one.

http://www.gozr.net/iocl/images/doc/capturedG2_109.jpg

http://www.gozr.net/iocl/images/doc/performanceshart.jpg