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crash3
04-20-2011, 07:36 AM
was thinking ways of fighting more defensively...

each time a guard attacks you, you tap the R1 (deflect button) to parry it whilst holding the analog stick in that guards direction.

for multiple guards therefore you are constantly moving your analog stick around to face guards as they attack you-could possibly parry two attacks at once

it would be better to just tap R1 to parry instead of just holding it down as it requires more timing and realistically a sword is heavy so you wont be able to hold it up forever so we should have an energy meter or something showing how long we can last before we cant fight on

we fight defensively first parrying and dodging until guards get tired and start to show weaknesses that we exploit-catch them off guards then wound them which will either make them run as they cant fight on or they fight so poorly that we can move in and kill them

combat shouldnt be a blood bath like ACB-it should be about surviving combat and wounding the soldiers during combat to make them run/surrender then every so often kill as you have no other choice-it more sophisticated that way.

every button X,SQUARE, CIRCLE, TRIANGLE should have some kind of counter move as you parry an attack for example X you would kick/dodge the guards away as you parry, CIRCLE makes you punch, push or grab/throw the guards as you parry, TRIANGLE you would headbutt the guard as you parry and SQUARE would be the regular sword/dagger counter but it would only kill the guard after he is wounded or exhausted.
these are all high profile moves that you do very quickly as they tire you out

the low profile moves would be like strafing/quickstepping so you can position yourself better if the guards surrond you

all these defensive move you would do first to tire the guards out as if you fight offensively straight aay you get tired and guards will be countering you and you wont be able to defend yourself properly once the guards fight back

hope that was understandable, any other thoughts?

crash3
04-20-2011, 07:36 AM
was thinking ways of fighting more defensively...

each time a guard attacks you, you tap the R1 (deflect button) to parry it whilst holding the analog stick in that guards direction.

for multiple guards therefore you are constantly moving your analog stick around to face guards as they attack you-could possibly parry two attacks at once

it would be better to just tap R1 to parry instead of just holding it down as it requires more timing and realistically a sword is heavy so you wont be able to hold it up forever so we should have an energy meter or something showing how long we can last before we cant fight on

we fight defensively first parrying and dodging until guards get tired and start to show weaknesses that we exploit-catch them off guards then wound them which will either make them run as they cant fight on or they fight so poorly that we can move in and kill them

combat shouldnt be a blood bath like ACB-it should be about surviving combat and wounding the soldiers during combat to make them run/surrender then every so often kill as you have no other choice-it more sophisticated that way.

every button X,SQUARE, CIRCLE, TRIANGLE should have some kind of counter move as you parry an attack for example X you would kick/dodge the guards away as you parry, CIRCLE makes you punch, push or grab/throw the guards as you parry, TRIANGLE you would headbutt the guard as you parry and SQUARE would be the regular sword/dagger counter but it would only kill the guard after he is wounded or exhausted.
these are all high profile moves that you do very quickly as they tire you out

the low profile moves would be like strafing/quickstepping so you can position yourself better if the guards surrond you

all these defensive move you would do first to tire the guards out as if you fight offensively straight aay you get tired and guards will be countering you and you wont be able to defend yourself properly once the guards fight back

hope that was understandable, any other thoughts?

ChaosxNetwork
04-20-2011, 09:26 AM
Can you do a translate for us Xbox and Possibly PC gamers? But I see were you are coming from and its a fairly good idea but it will have to keep with the "Puppeteering"(Seriously how do you spell that?) concept.

itsamea-mario
04-20-2011, 11:16 AM
I quite like this, but i think it's a little too complex for the devs tiny little minds... jk

And he is keeping with the pupeteering, the whole Triangle(Y) headbut and X(A) kick thing.

crash3
04-20-2011, 12:22 PM
cheers

Evan52395
04-20-2011, 01:21 PM
Hm, this sounds like a good idea. We could also have it so that climbing and running away takes energy so eventually you stop running and it's harder to escape. We could also have food stands to replenish energy.

ThaWhistle
04-20-2011, 02:29 PM
simple combat maneuvers in a video game shouldnt require paragraphs of explanation. it probably means it would be far to complicated to implement and actually get people to use.

good idea though, it just wouldnt work well.

crash3
04-20-2011, 02:33 PM
i know it took ages to explain i can never get to the point but i think my idea would definitely work
you point the analog stick in the direction of the guards who is attacking you and you tap R1 to parry (sorry i dont know the xbox or PC controls)

ThaWhistle
04-20-2011, 02:39 PM
the idea of making combat less of a 1 sided rape fest is a good idea, but at the same time slowing it down would be like AC2, combat because massively annoying.

combat shouldnt be one sided, but not slowed down and more complicated. personally I thought AC1 had hte best combat system.

itsamea-mario
04-20-2011, 02:50 PM
It's not that complicated.
Rather than holding R1 to block, you tap it to parry.
And you can turn around to face different enemies.
Also X /\ [] O are used to preform different attacks depending on the particular limb to control.

Much more complex systems exist, this is pretty basic really.

ThaWhistle
04-20-2011, 02:55 PM
my point is how does this vary from blocking or regular countering in a gameplay sense that would justify its change without making it more complicated? it ultimately doesn't sound like it would add to gameplay.

itsamea-mario
04-20-2011, 02:58 PM
It means you can't hide behind the invincibility button and actually have to to something, plus it's a little more realistic.
Parry opens them up, then you attack, AKA a counter.

crash3
04-20-2011, 03:05 PM
also they wouldnt be proper parry moves where the sword/dagger is actually moved drastically to block the attacks in time

Ureh
04-20-2011, 03:16 PM
I think they already do some of this. You just want to add animations for the arms and head as well.

We can already dodge their attacks, then quickly hit them when they're still recovering. Deflect doesn't really work anymore which forces us to use kick to break their defense. We can grab enemies and throw them or slit their throats. We can grab sand very quickly and throw it at enemies.

The idea of only being able to counter if they're weak sounds nice, but this already applies to some enemies (like Borgia Captains).

Something that would combat much more realistic is if more than 3 or more guards came at you at the same time. And also when they try to attack you when you're on the ground.

There's a chance that this will make combat more lengthier, frustrating, and boring.

crash3
04-20-2011, 03:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ureh:
I think they already do some of this. You just want to add animations for the arms and head as well.

We can already dodge their attacks, then quickly hit them when they're still recovering. Deflect doesn't really work anymore which forces us to use kick to break their defense. We can grab enemies and throw them or slit their throats. We can grab sand very quickly and throw it at enemies.

The idea of only being able to counter if they're weak sounds nice, but this already applies to some enemies (like Borgia Captains).

Something that would combat much more realistic is if more than 3 or more guards came at you at the same time. And also when they try to attack you when you're on the ground.

There's a chance that this will make combat more lengthier, frustrating, and boring. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

lengthy combat wont be boring as long as it is intense and the pace never stops-also combat needs to be more unpredictable therefore there shouldnt be any obvious archetypes. it would feel more satisfying to survive lengthy combat with say a maximum of 5 guards and to have disarmed/wounded/killed them in a really cool sophisticated way

Inorganic9_2
04-20-2011, 04:38 PM
I like the idea or this...or at least something similar.

I agree with ACI having the best combat system, but in terms of difficult. I wouldn't mind it if ACI had 'kill streaks', but not overkill ones.

I think kill streaks would be better if they could be blocked a lot easier, so perhaps it could be used as an oppurtunity force your opponent back and give yourself a break, rather than kill them 100% of the time.

lilbacchant
04-20-2011, 04:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ThaWhistle:
the idea of making combat less of a 1 sided rape fest is a good idea, but at the same time slowing it down would be like AC2, combat because massively annoying.

combat shouldnt be one sided, but not slowed down and more complicated. personally I thought AC1 had hte best combat system. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, I'm with you. I don't want it too complicated. I like simpler, faster engagements.

An assassin shouldn't be hanging around for long exchanges; that's what the guards, especially the 'tanks', should want you to do. If ya can't take 'em down quick, an assassin should be getting the hell outta dodge before help arrives and he gets surrounded.

I like the fact that the guards are a bit more aggressive in AC:B, but the streaks are just waaaaay too powerful -- perhaps limit it to one and only if a combo was used vs. allowing counters to trigger it.

Kicking in AC:B is an interesting idea, in theory, but it was also too powerful as implemented.

I'd like to see Guard-Break brought back, maybe putting it in the "head" spot -- even if it doesn't fit the puppeteer modeling.

So if I were God of the AC universe, I'd make these four rather simple changes:

- Retool streaks so they're significantly less powerful.
- Retool kicks so they're less powerful.
- Keep the guards aggressive (maybe even more so) and have reinforcements arrive faster, especially in restricted areas.
- Bring back Guard-Break.

lilbacchant
04-20-2011, 05:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Inorganic9_2:
I think kill streaks would be better if they could be blocked a lot easier, so perhaps it could be used as an oppurtunity force your opponent back and give yourself a break, rather than kill them 100% of the time. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I LIKE that. Scale their success rate up/down according to the norm/elite status of the type of guard. And the only way they'll work against stronger guards is if they're already damaged to a degree.

Then you'd have to decide between thinning the ranks one by one to limit the number of weapons against you, or weakening x number and going for a streak.

That could be fun ....

crash3
04-21-2011, 05:23 AM
what should happen is, the longer you fight back the more guards will arrive and you WILL be eventuallly overwhelmed and the longer you are fighting the larger the area you have to escape maybe marked by a red or yellow highlighted zone on your minimap

if you ever played the SABOTEUR youll know what i mean

also it should be COMBAT streaks not KILL streaks so once youve defended yourself and the guards start to get tired and lower their guard you can go offensive but you dont kill them in one blow and you have to always be mindful of them attacking or countering you so you have to react quickly to their movements and not let yurself get surrounded

every pupppeteering button should have some kind of counter not just regular square or x button

Inorganic9_2
04-21-2011, 12:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by lilbacchant:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Inorganic9_2:
I think kill streaks would be better if they could be blocked a lot easier, so perhaps it could be used as an oppurtunity force your opponent back and give yourself a break, rather than kill them 100% of the time. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I LIKE that. Scale their success rate up/down according to the norm/elite status of the type of guard. And the only way they'll work against stronger guards is if they're already damaged to a degree.

Then you'd have to decide between thinning the ranks one by one to limit the number of weapons against you, or weakening x number and going for a streak.

That could be fun .... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The only time I saw something similar implemented was the last fight. Cesare was not immediately killed by a kill streak, just forced back (though I can't see why; I tend to dislike it when they make the top bad guy the best fighter, even though there seems to be little reason for them to be so http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

lilbacchant
04-21-2011, 03:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Inorganic9_2:
The only time I saw something similar implemented was the last fight. Cesare was not immediately killed by a kill streak, just forced back (though I can't see why; I tend to dislike it when they make the top bad guy the best fighter, even though there seems to be little reason for them to be so http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hah! Yeah, when the few "wave" guards would show up while fighting Cesare, instead of it complicating or adding challenge, it was, "Sweet, more Kill Streak fodder!"

And you're exactly right about the top guys being presented as bad a$$es (especially Rodrigo in AC2 ... please!). The easiest part of an assassination for a skilled, experienced assassin is the mano-a-mano portion with the target. The challenge is getting thru, around, and later escaping the layers of protection a "top guy" should have.

AC1 presented these challenges in a reasonable, and fairly realistic way. Even though it fit for the top guys to be tough combatants, they still weren't much of a challenge one-on-one. They were, however, difficult to isolate -- surrounded by a high number of elite combatants.

I really missed that experience in AC:2 and AC:B, that feeling of a significant challenge while wading and fighting thru the final sequences (layers of protection) to finally eliminate my top enemy. [sigh]

Inorganic9_2
04-21-2011, 04:13 PM
Haha yea, Rodrigo was the one I specifically had in mind. Ezio would've cut him to ribbons...but that wouldn't have been an interesting story http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

payrob07
04-22-2011, 10:56 AM
Most swords in ezio's time were extremely light. The french rapier was around 2.2 lbs,if you can't hold that... you got problems son. However, I will say there should be more of a fatigue effect. Holing something 2 pounds is not hard, but being beaten like an anvil takes a toll.

It would be simple to incorporate into the game. If a fight last more than twenty seconds everyone starts to slow down and parrying is not as effective. The more people you fight... the higher the risk, therefore encouraging the player to be more of a hit and run assassin than let's hang out at the bridge to the castel st angelo and kill 5000000 people.

crash3
04-22-2011, 11:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by payrob07:
Most swords in ezio's time were extremely light. The french rapier was around 2.2 lbs,if you can't hold that... you got problems son. However, I will say there should be more of a fatigue effect. Holing something 2 pounds is not hard, but being beaten like an anvil takes a toll.

It would be simple to incorporate into the game. If a fight last more than twenty seconds everyone starts to slow down and parrying is not as effective. The more people you fight... the higher the risk, therefore encouraging the player to be more of a hit and run assassin than let's hang out at the bridge to the castel st angelo and kill 5000000 people. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

good point.

sabres might be slightly heavy but rapiers of course i agree theyre very light