PDA

View Full Version : Ohka interception...I've never seen this video before



TAW_Oilburner
01-11-2008, 06:23 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0CjYKb-y5k&feature=related

TAW_Oilburner
01-11-2008, 06:23 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0CjYKb-y5k&feature=related

nudibranches
01-11-2008, 06:35 PM
Nasty....when the starboard wing is sheared off! I guess that's by a brace of barking .50cals.

Luckily there were no Tiger tanks up there! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

berg417448
01-11-2008, 07:00 PM
They needed to have Oleg program their tail gunners.

BrotherVoodoo
01-11-2008, 07:05 PM
Nice find, thanks!

Haigotron
01-11-2008, 07:12 PM
towards the end you could see the tracers of the gunners coming straight towards the fighter! really intense

woofiedog
01-11-2008, 10:38 PM
Looks like they were having a little trouble knocking those Betty's out of the skies. A few had engines out... wonder how long they lasted while carrying the Ohka's with one engine working?

Or perhaps the Ohka flyer was dropped off a bit earlier than exspected. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif Whoop's

tools4foolsA
01-12-2008, 12:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by woofiedog:
Looks like they were having a little trouble knocking those Betty's out of the skies. A few had engines out... wonder how long they lasted while carrying the Ohka's with one engine working?

Or perhaps the Ohka flyer was dropped off a bit earlier than exspected. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif Whoop's </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dunno, but for me I saw one Betty burning on left wing root and the last one with the wing coming off.
All other sequences showed some hits, some smoke, but no damage I would call fatal.

+++++

fabianfred
01-12-2008, 12:11 AM
http://www.4shared.com/account/dir/4397636/38c2acb2/il2_missions.html

a link to the complete anime movie about Ohka in japanese with english sub-titles

LEBillfish
01-12-2008, 12:37 AM
WOW!....Did all of you miss it?....Play the movie and when you can see the wing meatballs clearly pause it....They're red center/white/blue roundels....

csThor
01-12-2008, 12:47 AM
Look at how the fighter approaches at 0:55 min. Try that in game and you'll get an overdose of 20mm from the Betty's tail gunner. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

woofiedog
01-12-2008, 12:48 AM
tools4foolsA... Flying along with one engine out on the Betty may be fine... but carring the load of a Ohka might be a little more for the Betty and crew. Some where along the line the crew of the Betty might jettison that extra weight before regular launch time of the Ohka. Just a thought.

Found this bit of info...

<span class="ev_code_YELLOW"> However, in reality, it seldom worked out like that. The mother planes first had to overcome the American Hellcat interceptors. Because the Ohka limited the Betty's flight abilities, often the Betty pilot would simply release the missile and start evasive action. Even without the Ohka attached the Betty was no match for a Hellcat and many were shot down without coming anywhere near the target area. The Ohka pilots who were now stuck on board the doomed Betty, would die as a mere passenger and not in the Kamikaze blaze of glory they had trained and hoped for. The other problem with this method of special attack was that "Besides the flying and maneuvering advantages of regular planes, if one of them was lost, it was only one plane and one pilot, but in Ohka attacks the loss often involved not only the Ohka pilots but also eight crewmembers of the Betty mother plane" </span>

fabianfred... Will have to check that link out when I get home. Thank's

woofiedog
01-12-2008, 01:10 AM
Also found this article...

At 9:45 A.M. on March 21, Admiral Ugaki gave the order to launch the first joint Thunder Gods assault, even though they would be unsupported by any other kamikaze sorties. Lieutenant-Commander Nonaka bluntly ignored his superior's orders to stand aside, and after selecting his best pilots he joined the Fleet commanders in the traditional farewell ceremony with the Thunder Gods and bomber crews. The 18 Betty bombers of this first flight only had 60 fighters to escort them, half of whom aborted due to engine troubles. Once the entire flight disappeared over the horizon, nothing more was heard until later that evening, when two damaged Zeros returned and told the story. The main flight had been intercepted by more than 50 American fighters and broken up while still 60 miles from the nearest carrier group. The entire formation was overwhelmed and within ten minutes all the Betty Bombers had either been shot down or forced to jettison their Ohkas in an attempt to escape. Nonaka was last seen flying wingtip to wingtip with three other bombers in a steep dive away from the fight. Nothing more was ever heard from any of the bomber crews or Nonaka.

Link: http://www.wtj.com/articles/kamikaze/

http://www.j-models.org/betty5.jpg

tools4foolsA
01-13-2008, 02:46 AM
woofiedog, I'm not saying those Betty/Okha combos did not get shot down.

On the 'famous raid' only 30 or 32 of the Zeros got airborne, rest did not get to escort, mostly because of engine troubles.

18 Bettys, 16 with Okha, two for navigation purposes.

Intercepted by 'about 50 Hellcats' it was aturkey shoot. 15 Zeros and 15 Betty shot down, some more crashing on retun flight.

No Jinrai/Okha hit the target that day.

My only point is that in that movie I see TWO Betty destroyed; a whole lot more damaged, but not what I would call 'confirmed kills'.

I don't disagree with that the Betty's got shot down, but to me the movie does not show that 'they were having a little trouble knocking those Betty's out of the skies' for the simple reason that I see only TWO of them being knocked out (and lots more damaged) of the sky in this movie.

*****

DuxCorvan
01-13-2008, 03:59 AM
Is it me, or there are LOTS of six approximations in that film that in FB/PF/1946 would mean a sure shooting feast for the AI gunners? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

R_Target
01-13-2008, 08:42 AM
21 March 1945 interception, from Hellcat-The F6F in WW II, Barret Tillman:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Eighteen Ohka-carrying Bettys escorted by 30 Zekes were plotted by TG 58.1 that afternoon, distance 70 miles. Two Hornet divisions, one each from VF-17 and VBF-17, were scrambled, while VF-30 dispatched eight Hellcats from Belleau Wood. Fighing 30 took on the Zekes while the Hornet fighters went for the Bettys. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


4 planes from VF-17, four from VBF-17, and eight from VF-30=16 Hellcat interceptors.

tools4foolsA
01-13-2008, 10:00 AM
Wow, did they not have more planes available?

With about 50 incoming raiders I would have thought that 4 carriers of TF 58 ((Hornet, Bennington, Wasp, and Belleau Wood).) would launch more than 16 Hellcats...

R_Target
01-13-2008, 10:31 AM
Maybe that's all they could get there in time. Either way, those that weren't shot down turned back, and none got through.

stalkervision
01-13-2008, 11:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by woofiedog:
tools4foolsA... Flying along with one engine out on the Betty may be fine... but carring the load of a Ohka might be a little more for the Betty and crew. Some where along the line the crew of the Betty might jettison that extra weight before regular launch time of the Ohka. Just a thought.

Found this bit of info...

<span class="ev_code_YELLOW"> However, in reality, it seldom worked out like that. The mother planes first had to overcome the American Hellcat interceptors. Because the Ohka limited the Betty's flight abilities, often the Betty pilot would simply release the missile and start evasive action. Even without the Ohka attached the Betty was no match for a Hellcat and many were shot down without coming anywhere near the target area. The Ohka pilots who were now stuck on board the doomed Betty, would die as a mere passenger and not in the Kamikaze blaze of glory they had trained and hoped for. The other problem with this method of special attack was that "Besides the flying and maneuvering advantages of regular planes, if one of them was lost, it was only one plane and one pilot, but in Ohka attacks the loss often involved not only the Ohka pilots but also eight crewmembers of the Betty mother plane" </span>

fabianfred... Will have to check that link out when I get home. Thank's </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


If attacked in a betty with a Ohka attached I would have kept the Ohka and had the ohka pilot lit the burner on that puppy and rocket out of harms way.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

tools4foolsA
01-14-2008, 12:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stalkervision:
If attacked in a betty with a Ohka attached I would have kept the Ohka and had the ohka pilot lit the burner on that puppy and rocket out of harms way.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Something tells me that I don't wanna be the tail gunner in that Betty you are piloting... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

+++++

woofiedog
01-14-2008, 03:30 AM
tools4foolsA... To me the aircaft attacking the Betty's are pumping quite a load of 50's into those Betty's before there is any amount of damage. Those Betty's must have the added self seal tanks and other armor protection.
One thing also... it really doesn't seem to be much firing coming from the Betty's. The gunners are not giving back to much defensive fire or maybe it's not showing up in the film clips???

And Yes... Tail Gunner position seems to be a very lonely spot to spend some time and die in. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/sadeyes.gif

http://www.j-models.org/betty1.jpg
A Betty test firing it's 20mm tail gun.

http://www.j-models.org/betty6.jpg
Lauching a Ohka.

stalkervision... That would be quite a ride or you might say... They went off into a Blaze of Glory! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

A link with a little more info about the Ohka units.

Mitsubishi Type I Rikko Betty Units of World War 2 (http://books.google.com/books?id=FckY71exhH4C&pg=PA94&lpg=PA94&dq=uss+hornet+%22vf+17%22+ohka&source=web&ots=ZJUlV1UJ5O&sig=BElRzlLt9uDYyy0pqNpM2W2_xHM)

Also some photos of a crash Betty [late model].

Mitsubishi G4M1 Model 11 Crash Photos (http://aviationarchaeology.com/src/Yap/site4betty.htm)

Schwarz.13
01-14-2008, 06:16 AM
Does anyone know what that music is on the video?

blindpugh
01-14-2008, 06:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by berg417448:
They needed to have Oleg program their tail gunners. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>yea I hope you noticed -not one sniper rear gunner-Oleg take note!!!!!

Billy_BigBoy
01-14-2008, 10:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LEBillfish:
WOW!....Did all of you miss it?....Play the movie and when you can see the wing meatballs clearly pause it....They're red center/white/blue roundels.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's what I noticed too. But, what does it mean?
I am not familiar with those roundels. Don't tell me the are british, right?

SeaFireLIV
01-14-2008, 11:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Billy_BigBoy:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LEBillfish:
WOW!....Did all of you miss it?....Play the movie and when you can see the wing meatballs clearly pause it....They're red center/white/blue roundels.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's what I noticed too. But, what does it mean?
I am not familiar with those roundels. Don't tell me the are british, right? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes. This is somewhat strange. Is their any documentary evidence of the japanese bombers using what looks like English aircraft roundels on their aircraft? Or is this a recoloured film that someone got wrong?

Is it possible that the Japanese were trying some kind of trick (looking Allied) in an attempt to skip through Allied lines? I notice that not all Bettys have this marking.

There are so many things that go on on the local level in war that never get recorded that we may never know the reason for this. just as we cannot assume that all rear gunners were useless because of one shoot film that tells us nothing of the Betty`s circumstances before the film event.

R_Target
01-14-2008, 11:20 AM
How far in to the clip are you guys seeing blue roundels? All I can make out is the white-bordered Hinomaru. Billfish may be doing some leg-pulling. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

http://i18.tinypic.com/86shavt.jpg

http://i15.tinypic.com/6y3mmhi.jpg

http://i10.tinypic.com/72gfuw5.jpg

SeaFireLIV
01-14-2008, 11:24 AM
The first good clear view is at 25 seconds mark, though there are others before it, just not very clear. It occurs to me that this could be an optical effect, especially with the blue dark area, but the white is pretty clear to see, though. hard to tell with such old colour footage.

R_Target
01-14-2008, 11:34 AM
Here's a better grab at 25 seconds.

http://i13.tinypic.com/7wse0rk.jpg

Billy_BigBoy
01-14-2008, 11:43 AM
Busted! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

LEBillfish
01-14-2008, 12:04 PM
Well I posted the following in a thread I started at www.j-aircraft.com (http://www.j-aircraft.com) ,

"Not arguing the point, simply what I'm seeing (sorry for the small size and low resolution, wrestling with my software tonight)......All pics are screen captures taken from link above posted by SmiertSpionem entitled "Yokosuka MXY-7 Ohka (Cherry Blossom) kamikaze craft".

As appearing on my screen, then with PhotoDeluxe "Extensis Intellifix" applied 1x no changes to contrast or color made...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v707/Kaytoo/hino1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v707/Kaytoo/hino2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v707/Kaytoo/hino3.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v707/Kaytoo/hino4.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v707/Kaytoo/hino5.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v707/Kaytoo/hino6.jpg

Though it's the color that catches my eye, it's the small size of the red hinomaru and large size of the white and debatable blue band that made me post."

The response however was that they felt the reason for the smaller "seeming" sized red of the hinomaru, the larger white band and lastly the blue ring, were nothing more then photographic annomolies, accentuated by You-Tube....A single still was posted with some color correction by J. Lansdale, and in that the blue ring was indeed there....Just simply a darker shade of green as though simply a surround or border made by the camouflage.

That thread can be found here... http://www.j-aircraft.org/smf/index.php?topic=5039.0

R_Target
01-14-2008, 12:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LEBillfish:
The response however was that they felt the reason for the smaller "seeming" sized red of the hinomaru, the larger white band and lastly the blue ring, were nothing more then photographic annomolies, accentuated by You-Tube....A single still was posted with some color correction by J. Lansdale, and in that the blue ring was indeed there....Just simply a darker shade of green as though simply a surround or border made by the camouflage. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's about what I figured. I could see the dark ring around the white, but I just attributed it to the compression. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

SeaFireLIV
01-14-2008, 12:38 PM
I looked at the other thread and agree that the blue could indeed be a colour aberration. It`s not at all unfeasible, especially with such old cameras and print to get this. But i`m still a bit curious about the white band which is quite clear.

I think the one way to finally clear this is to read the US pilot`s report on this attack. IF the Betty`s were wearing Blue, white and red roundels or even just red and white, they surely woul`ve mentioned it in their report. I know they missed the Ohka, but i`m sure they`d report British-roundel Betty`s!

If they haven`t then it must be an optical effect of the film. I`ve learned in the past that we sometimes cannot believe what our eyes seem to be saying and must rely on facts and logic.

berg417448
01-14-2008, 01:10 PM
Placing white around the red roundel seems to be common:

http://www.geocities.com/ctemplar270/bettyoka.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c6/G4M_...ber_Betty_G4M-13.jpg (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c6/G4M_Type_1_Attack_Bomber_Betty_G4M-13.jpg)

http://www.airtoaircombat.com/images/Mitsubishi_G4M_Betty_large.jpg

http://earth.endless.ne.jp/users/mac0115/G4M1.JPG

SeaFireLIV
01-14-2008, 01:25 PM
Ah yes, of course. So it`s just the blue which is the optical effect. makes sense.

Lurch1962
01-14-2008, 05:55 PM
The apparent overly wide white ring is almost certainly from diffusion in the film emulsion due to high intensity illumination in combination with strongly contrasting darker tones immediately adjacent.

The same effect has led to the so-called Apollo lunar imagery controversy where the black fiducial marks (the widely-spaced pattern of fine crosses on the glass platten at the focal plane) seem to disappear where they lie over bright white areas.

The "blue" zones can be caused by a number of things, two of which immediately come to mind:

- chromatic aberration in the camera lens and/or transfer optical system.

- electronic noise in the videotape copy of this film. This seems to be the biggest culprit here.

--Lurch--

tools4foolsA
01-15-2008, 10:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Posted Sun January 13 2008 07:42
4 planes from VF-17, four from VBF-17, and eight from VF-30=16 Hellcat interceptors. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just read up once more on that 21. March attack and in one of the books ('Kamikaze' by R. Lamanont-Brown) it is mentioned that '150 US fighters were launched including 24 from TG 58.1"

So seems that there way more planes in the air and it could well be that more than just 16 made contact.

+++++

R_Target
01-15-2008, 04:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tools4foolsA:
Just read up once more on that 21. March attack and in one of the books ('Kamikaze' by R. Lamanont-Brown) it is mentioned that '150 US fighters were launched including 24 from TG 58.1"

So seems that there way more planes in the air and it could well be that more than just 16 made contact.

+++++ </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wouldn't be surprised if there were more planes on CAP on March 21, but according to the records, the interception was made by the sixteen noted, and the claims by these pilots match the Japanese losses closely.

The F6F pilots did report making repeated runs on the formation, so maybe there appeared to be more.

tools4foolsA
01-16-2008, 11:10 AM
The book I quoted mentiones as well that that the 'escorting Zeroes broke formation and got invlovled in a fight with Hellcats'. Roughly.

That could say that a first group of Hellcats took onthe escorts and then the fighters you qouted took on the Betty/Okha combos.

Whatever, FOW.

Just scrambling less than 20 fihgters with an inocoming raid of approx 50 boogies sounds not the American way, in particular if you got way more fighters at hand...
++++

R_Target
01-17-2008, 01:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tools4foolsA:
The book I quoted mentiones as well that that the 'escorting Zeroes broke formation and got invlovled in a fight with Hellcats'. Roughly.

That could say that a first group of Hellcats took onthe escorts and then the fighters you qouted took on the Betty/Okha combos. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, it did kind of go that way. The eight planes from Hornet attacked the Bettys, while the eight from Belleau Wood fought the Zeros. One of the VBF-17 planes was shot down.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Just scrambling less than 20 fihgters with an inocoming raid of approx 50 boogies sounds not the American way, in particular if you got way more fighters at hand...
++++ </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree that you'd always want to use the maximum force possible. But regardless of whether or not the Fighter Director scrambled an adequate number of planes, the eight VF-17/VBF-17 and eight VF-30 Hellcats reported engaging 18 G4Ms and ~30 A6Ms. The USN claims were 18 Bettys and 12 Zeros. As far as I know, this was the only attack on TG 58.1 on this date. It wasn't the first (or the last) time F6Fs engaged with unfavorable odds.