PDA

View Full Version : Spitfire Mk.VIII vs Spitfire Mk.IX 25lbs



DKoor
06-21-2007, 05:26 PM
I read quite frequently on these and other forums some indications on how preferred Spitfire mount is now Mk.VIII even over Mk.IX 25lbs.

I find that highly unbelievable.... since I consider 25lbs as pretty much the t0p of the chain.

I fly Spitfire very rarely so I can't tell about this.

DKoor
06-21-2007, 05:26 PM
I read quite frequently on these and other forums some indications on how preferred Spitfire mount is now Mk.VIII even over Mk.IX 25lbs.

I find that highly unbelievable.... since I consider 25lbs as pretty much the t0p of the chain.

I fly Spitfire very rarely so I can't tell about this.

mynameisroland
06-21-2007, 05:54 PM
Its probably because of NightShifter's XIV skin for the VIII - its bloody amazing! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Either that or a lot of combat is above 7000m where the VIII is better than the IX 25lb

tigertalon
06-21-2007, 08:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mynameisroland:
Its probably because of NightShifter's XIV skin for the VIII - its bloody amazing! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Either that or a lot of combat is above 7000m where the VIII is better than the IX 25lb </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly! Rare spit25lb pilots are aware of the power dropoff above 7k, it's the worst late mark spit up there, falling behind even L version... Poor b@stards that are following a K4 up there. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

MrMojok
06-21-2007, 08:52 PM
Which mark is the one that never overheats?

or is that all of them?

VW-IceFire
06-21-2007, 09:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MrMojok:
Which mark is the one that never overheats?

or is that all of them? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
None of them is the correct answer. They all overheat. But the IX's are strange in that they don't overheat at low altitude but they do overheat at or around full throttle height at medium and higher altitudes. Fortunately and unfortunately the radiator control is completely automated with no manual mode so overheat is sort of like in the 109 when in auto mode where you don't overheat much if you back off once you see the message.

The Mark V's are constantly overheating on some of the hotter maps.

MrMojok
06-21-2007, 10:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MrMojok:
Which mark is the one that never overheats?

or is that all of them? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
the IX's are strange in that they don't overheat at low altitude </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Damn, I gotta try one, then. That's the altitude I find myself flying at mostly http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif With all the other N00bers.

SlickStick
06-21-2007, 11:00 PM
IIRC, Mk. VIII is lighter than the +25lbs. and in my experience will out turn the +25lbs. I prefer the Mk. VIII CW over all Spits, unless I'm in a 1 vs 1 server with a guy who likes and knows how to climb in the +25lbs. Then, usually I'll match planes, because the +25lbs. most definitely outclimbs the Mk. VIII.

But, things usually grind down to a slow turn and loop and I'd rather have the faster roll of the CW at slower speeds. Just my opinion of course, other's mileage may vary.

I'd also agree with others that I'd rather be over 5000m with a Mk. VIII than any other Spit as well.

Xiolablu3
06-22-2007, 12:03 AM
The Mark V versions overheat like crazy in the desert scenarios, they have manual radiators.

Its the SPitfires with the Auto rads that dont overheat that much.

However I have ruined (by overheating) a Spitfire IX engine on a desert map before while running from a Fw190A6.

I am quite sure that the map temperature affects overheat, which is very cool.

stathem
06-22-2007, 02:00 AM
I always think that it is a testament to just how good this sim is that the subtle differences in handling between the Mk VIII and the Mk IX, which were noted historically, can actually be felt when you 'fly' the two aircraft back-to-back.

DKoor
06-22-2007, 02:11 AM
Although some folks describe Mark Vs as target vs 109F and 190A, I wouldn't agree much on that, in spite of overheat.

Overheat "feature" means one thing: you have to know that plane inside out! Times you can do with full power in overheat, level flite and climb... stuff like that. That can be tested but it's quite boring for the most part.... so many people like to back off on throttle as soon as "Engine: Overheat!" message appears.
That is all nice, but sometimes they don't have that luxury, as sometimes one or two seconds makes all the difference.
This is extremely important when one is flying Mk.V.

As far as overheating with later models is concerned... I tested Mk.IX 25lbs - that model pwns everything else in that regard on deck! P-47 comes close true, but still Mk.IX-25 is better!*
It overheats very, very slowly even in fights which are full of maneuvers - slow fights... it doesn't matter, just back off a bit on throttle and again firewall it!
Also funny "feature" with Spitfire is when "overheat" appears sometimes you don't have to back off on the throttle at all, just increase speed and "overheat" disappears!

http://i10.tinypic.com/4yjh2l0.jpg

Chart shows that indeed Spitfire Mk.VIII has better performance over Mk.IX 25lbs at alt... but in my experience fights are quite rare at that alts.
________________________________________________
* - True, MiG-3AM doesn't overheat at all, will run as long as fuel lasts on max power, but that is likely a bug....

HellToupee
06-22-2007, 02:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SlickStick:
IIRC, Mk. VIII is lighter than the +25lbs. and in my experience will out turn the +25lbs. I prefer the Mk. VIII CW over all Spits, unless I'm in a 1 vs 1 server with a guy who likes and knows how to climb in the +25lbs. Then, usually I'll match planes, because the +25lbs. most definitely outclimbs the Mk. VIII.

But, things usually grind down to a slow turn and loop and I'd rather have the faster roll of the CW at slower speeds. Just my opinion of course, other's mileage may vary.

I'd also agree with others that I'd rather be over 5000m with a Mk. VIII than any other Spit as well. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

the VIII is actually more heavy, it was considered to handle better due to better balance of controls.

SPit 25lbs loses power at alt compared to others due to being modeled off a poor quality spitfire.

Xiolablu3
06-22-2007, 02:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DKoor:

Also funny "feature" with Spitfire is when "overheat" appears sometimes you don't have to back off on the throttle at all, just increase speed and "overheat" disappears!
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Makes sense, more air being pushed harder through the radiator.

Bit like a car overheating when you sit in traffic.

If the radiator/cooling system is good enough, the faster you go, the better the engine cools.


One thing I have always wonderd is why does the Spitfire only go up to 100% when the other planes go to 110%?

DOes this affect the overheating at all?

stathem
06-22-2007, 02:55 AM
The things which, IMO, make the MkVIII the better fighting aeroplane, based on it's design and which I think can be felt in the sim;

Slightly heavier, but less drag (retractable tailwheel); thus it retains it's energy though manuvers better so long as you are smooth and trimmed through them.

The lower drag means the onset of buffet in a max speed dive is later, and obviously you lose slightly less speed when over the Vmax. It may have a slightly higher Vne, not quite sure. Presumably it picks up speed in a dive a little better, not really been able to detect that.

The stiffer wing and smaller ailerons improve roll rate at higher speed.

These are all really small effects.

Actually though, if given the choice, I would still take a IXe, since I dislike the gun shake of the outer .303s. My gunnery skills are poor enough as it is. If forced to fly the 'c' wing, I separate the guns and just fire the cannons.

DKoor
06-22-2007, 03:01 AM
Yes .50+20 is rock steady compared to the .303+20... but many prefer .303s due to their incendiary power and also PK is very much reality when you spray axis fighter from close range with 4x.303.

.50 will sure do more damage... it's very close call IMO.
It downs very much to the personal preference.

Xiolablu3
06-22-2007, 07:15 AM
The 50's on the SPitfire are real sniper weapons.

tigertalon
06-22-2007, 07:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DKoor:
Also funny "feature" with Spitfire is when "overheat" appears sometimes you don't have to back off on the throttle at all, just increase speed and "overheat" disappears!
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Heh, that's funny. If we are looking at situation which is close to max speed, you do indeed have an increase of airflow through engine (which is roughly proportional to the difference in airspeed) if you speed up, but the difference in power you need to increase speed goes with tripple power of speed!! (because drag power goes with tripple power of speed) - that's why overheat goes up wildly. Simply put, it doesn't sum up. At least IRL it shouldn't.

It's like trying to travel economically and thinking, hey, let's travel as fast as we can with a car, because then we will travel the largest possible distance in given time, without considering fuel consumption will actually greatly reduce this time.

DKoor
06-22-2007, 07:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
The 50's on the SPitfire are real sniper weapons. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Yes true... Hispanos are good for this job too, but not to the .50s extent IMHO of course..... they have higher velocity so they make a perfect sniping weapon....

I'd like to see some experiences in this regard...... do you guys set up your .50 to 350m and more conv ? So you can riddle the fleeing aircraft?
Or do you set .50 low conv and higher Hispano conv for sniping?

From what I can conclude, .50s would do that job better although they sure lack punch to do serious damage, distance plus the fact that we are shooting from 2x.50s only..... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

OD_
06-22-2007, 08:16 AM
I find the MkVIII to be the best Spitfire in game, I have kept up with Spitfire MkIX25lbers. But it is not so much about the speed as the handling, it feels sharper, it feels better at high speed, the clipped wing version rolls brilliantly. I just would not swap it for any other Spitfire, except to try an MkXIV. then I may have to say that was better, but we've not got one so I can't!

OD.

SlickStick
06-22-2007, 08:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HellToupee:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SlickStick:
IIRC, Mk. VIII is lighter than the +25lbs. and in my experience will out turn the +25lbs. I prefer the Mk. VIII CW over all Spits, unless I'm in a 1 vs 1 server with a guy who likes and knows how to climb in the +25lbs. Then, usually I'll match planes, because the +25lbs. most definitely outclimbs the Mk. VIII.

But, things usually grind down to a slow turn and loop and I'd rather have the faster roll of the CW at slower speeds. Just my opinion of course, other's mileage may vary.

I'd also agree with others that I'd rather be over 5000m with a Mk. VIII than any other Spit as well. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

the VIII is actually more heavy, it was considered to handle better due to better balance of controls.

SPit 25lbs loses power at alt compared to others due to being modeled off a poor quality spitfire. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah, I must have been looking at mean vs max at Spitfire performance in those test charts, instead of mean vs mean. Found another table there showing 7450lbs. for the LF IX and 7800lbs. for the LF VIII.

I indeed do like shooting with the IXe when the VIII is not in the map, but I'd always trade the .50s for the better performance of the VIII. With closely skilled pilots, the difference is more going to be the performance of the plane, than the difference between .50s and .303s.

Besides as DKoor said, the .303s do some good damage in their own right. There are many times when I've run out of hispanos after a few kills and use the .303s alone to damage controls or PK for another one or two. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

DKoor, what does your chart say if you select the full wing version of the VIII vs the +25lbs? I don't have a current copy of IL2 Compare handy. Interesting that your chart there shows the +25lbs with an almost 2 second advantage at best turn time. That seems like allot and if accurate I would expect to be out-turned by +25lbs Spits much more often, but that has not been the case in my experience.

Maybe those +25lbs pilots just aren't turning at their best turn speed. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

DKoor
06-22-2007, 09:37 AM
Fuel may played the part too.... but really when it comes down to the maneuverable planes such is the Spitfire good energy management and initial combat positions are far more important than one sec of sustained turn.... IMHO. Another words, pilots skill.

Here is the chart:

http://i13.tinypic.com/61x1wu8.jpg

SlickStick
06-22-2007, 10:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DKoor:
Fuel may played the part too.... but really when it comes down to the maneuverable planes such is the Spitfire good energy management and initial combat positions are far more important than one sec of sustained turn.... IMHO. Another words, pilots skill.

Here is the chart:

http://i13.tinypic.com/61x1wu8.jpg </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Almost 2 seconds is what is shown on your first chart and I agree with what you say, but given similarly skilled pilots, 2 seconds would seem to be a good advantage. Of course, pilot skill is always the number one factor in any engagement, as there is no substitute for situational awareness and gunnery.

faustnik
06-22-2007, 10:31 AM
I'm glad others feel the same way about the Mk VIII, I thought the better feel was just my imagination. I can't say that I think the VIII is a better fighter than the IX but, for some reason, it's just more comfortable to me. The dive and zoom is very good with that plane.

SlickStick
06-22-2007, 10:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by faustnik:
The dive and zoom is very good with that plane. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif 100%

She is a very good zoomer and diver. Plus, she's a tad prettier than the other Spitfires IMO with her retractable tail wheel. Her in-game 3D model appears to be a bit "cleaner" than the IX as well.