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Chuck_Older
10-07-2005, 06:52 AM
Looked at video cards yesterday since I am about 300 bucks under budget and I'm stupid enough to waste my money when I have extra

I'm seeing a lot of PCI-E cards. I am not up to date on PC specs anymore

Merits of PCI-E vs. AGP? Shortcomings? Requirements to use PCI-E? Can anyone give me a breif rundown?

My PC is a 2.08 GHz Athlon, GeForceFX5700 Ultra (AGP), 1 gig RAM, windows XP. I run pretty high graphics in FB with no trouble at 1024X768 but in 16 bit

Chuck_Older
10-07-2005, 06:52 AM
Looked at video cards yesterday since I am about 300 bucks under budget and I'm stupid enough to waste my money when I have extra

I'm seeing a lot of PCI-E cards. I am not up to date on PC specs anymore

Merits of PCI-E vs. AGP? Shortcomings? Requirements to use PCI-E? Can anyone give me a breif rundown?

My PC is a 2.08 GHz Athlon, GeForceFX5700 Ultra (AGP), 1 gig RAM, windows XP. I run pretty high graphics in FB with no trouble at 1024X768 but in 16 bit

Sturm_Williger
10-07-2005, 06:59 AM
PCI-E is the way forward, the new standard etc.

I used to have a link to a great site that explained it all, but ... I lose a lot of stuff.

Sorry, but I'm sure the more PC-savvy will be along shortly.

It's definitely faster than AGP.

WOLFMondo
10-07-2005, 07:05 AM
The bandwidth PCIe X16 allows is roughly twice that of AGP X8 so theres potential for enormous amounts of data to be transfered. Thats the benefit over it. Games will run faster and smoother as bottle necks are widened.

AGP is essentially an old standard, like PCI 33mhz where as PCIe and PCIe X16 graphics cards are the new standard.

There is 1 board on the market that uses ULi M1695 which has a fully working AGPx8 and PCIe X16 slot on the same board but its by ASrock, its also a 939pin socket. Other firms are looking into using it but thats a safe bet for those who want to upgrade in stages.

With 99% of other PCIe boards you can use an AGP card but they only work at X1 and not X8 so things will run terribly.

To use PCIe? PCIe graphics cards use a different power socket but the adaptor cost a few $ and works with older PSU's. If you have a 2.X standard PSU they usually have the connector on them by defualt.

For standard PCIe sockets for use with soundcards, network cards etc, theres not to much on the market and many motherboards come with 2 PCI 33mhz and 2 PCIe slots and 1 or SLI dual PCIe X16 graphics slots.

Its probably worth saving up a bit and buying a new Mobo, CPU and GFX card because these current standards are here to stay for a while where as AGP will be dead in the not to distant future, maybe a 1-2 years.

p1ngu666
10-07-2005, 07:29 AM
SLI http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

DFI lanparty mobo, and a "venice" cpu, u could probably get that for 300$ or so. then clock the badgers out of it http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

dazza9806482
10-07-2005, 08:10 AM
I was wondering about this as well...

just noticed that lots of people's screenshots look totally brilliant.

are PCI-E cards backwards compatible with AGP? im sure i read in the specs for radeon x700 card that it had both agp and PCI-e cards.

ive got a 2800xp barton and currently a radeon 9800se, maybe i should get a pro. or save my money for a future beast!

SlickStick
10-07-2005, 08:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by dazza9806482:
I was wondering about this as well...

just noticed that lots of people's screenshots look totally brilliant.

are PCI-E cards backwards compatible with AGP? im sure i read in the specs for radeon x700 card that it had both agp and PCI-e cards.

ive got a 2800xp barton and currently a radeon 9800se, maybe i should get a pro. or save my money for a future beast! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

PCI-E is not backwards compatible with AGP. Two different slot types and configuration. Vid card makers make both styles of certain cards, like the 6800 for example. You can get the card in AGP 8X or PCI-E 16x. However, a motherboard must have the PCI-Ex16 slot for you to run PCI-E.

As p1ngu666 posted above, that is the configuration I'm planning to upgrade to over the next year. NForce4 mobo, Venice core Athlon64 3000+ and a PCI-E 6800 or maybe 6800GT. Then, overclock the bejeesus out of it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Chuck_Older
10-07-2005, 10:22 AM
So I'm better off just buying another gig of RAM

wayno7777
10-07-2005, 10:35 AM
Best bet with what you have. You can search pricewatch.com for MB's and combos. You might find one that fit your purpose....

ytareh
10-07-2005, 10:35 AM
Just because a rig can produce a sweet screenshot doesnt mean its playable at that quality....

ytareh
10-07-2005, 10:40 AM
...couple of things chuck....wouldnt you be better running 32 bit graphics even if it meant shifting down the resolution...worth trying....also some say that little/no benefit in the secong gig of ram for this game.Id hold off for a couple of months.Going PCI Express will mean new mobo as well as the card and a new cpu probably as good as essential...

Professor1942
10-07-2005, 10:52 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by dazza9806482:
ive got a 2800xp barton and currently a radeon 9800se, maybe i should get a pro. or save my money for a future beast! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd save for the future beast... you could get a nice performance increase with a 6800 GT or something similar, but your cpu isn't that great anymore and you'd be stuck if you wanted to upgrade that after (while keeping your video card).

I think most of us "cheat" with our screenshots; I usually take them from playback tracks at 1600x1200, 4xAA which is not a playable setting for me in any scenario with clouds.

Jumoschwanz
10-07-2005, 11:58 AM
Chuck you have enough ram, don't buy any more. Your video card is a little older, and your cpu is too.
I run a 32-bit AMD rig that is AGP, it has a gig of ram and an xp3200 cpu, that I think runs at 220mhz, but AMD's cpus complete more work per clock cycle than intels, so it doesn't need to run as fast.

Tom's hardware did a test of 35 PCI-express video cards this year. Their test rig was the latest Asus SLI MB, and Athlon64 4000+cpu, and a gig of ram. The processor alone they used cost at the time, over $400.

Running the Beau-Torp track of PF at 1200X1600 on perfect mode, they got 65fps with a PCI-express version of the ATIX850ST Platinum edition.
My 32-bit rig, with the AGP version of the same video card, running windows 2000, got 59fps on the same track and settings!
So for all the investment in a whole new rig, they get a sketchy and non-noticeable improvement of 6fps, not impressive at all I would say.

I ran a 9700pro and a 9800pro as soon as they came out, they are good cards, but they are only about HALF the performance of the X850XT.

If your motherboard could upgrade to a 2.8ghz or higher cpu, and you got the X850XT like I have, I think you would be able to run perfect mode at high resolutions like I do, and not have to spend money on a rig until sometime after Bob is released.

No matter WHAT rig you build now, it will be taxed to run Bob and other stuff that will be around in 2007, and you will be in the same boat again.

I am confident my rig is all set for a long time, until Bob comes out at least. And who knows if I will even be around or still flying computer games that far in advance.

I would say put in the best cpu your current MB will handle, and get the hottest AGP card you can buy. It will set you back a bit of money, but nowhere near as much as a whole new, state of the art rig that will not run Bob anyway when it comes out.

Plus the 64-bit rigs have absolutely no advantage at all right now, there is no 64-bit software to run on them! 64-bit windows apps will run well, so you can have INternet explorer start faster, and you can play 64-bit solitare, but PF actuall runs SLOWER on 64-bit windows than on windows xp or 2000.

So save your cash for Bob, and go with a hotter cpu and a killer AGP card for now.

Jumoschwanz

p1ngu666
10-07-2005, 12:11 PM
by "feeling" the venice i got now is much much better, i had a barton at 2.2ghz before i think, with 9800se AIW, which i modded to pro with omega drivers, then overclocked http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif, around 9800XT speeds. my 6800 ultra is a fair bit faster.

might sell my 6800 ultra tho, so i can get a matched pair of them http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif aprently hte 80+ drivers due any day mean that u dont two indentical cards thohttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

having more ram will make the system feel nicer, u may need to get a 1gig stick, to balance with your 2 512's tho. 2gig of ram be tastey http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

WOLFMondo
10-07-2005, 12:16 PM
XP64 is a bit of a waste of time, not cause theres no software, but cause its flakey! Every 5 minutes the error reporting service will appear! Seriously, the advantages of XP64 is really only for 3d developers, graphic artists, users with huge amounts of memory on there pc's.

SLI is a bit of a waste as well, performance over a good single card is marginal and its very expensive to do. Not really worth it unless you have more money than sense.

Jumoschwanz, I used to run a 9700 pro. I now have a PCIe X800XT and in 3Dmark2005 its roughlyh 3.5 times more performance with 4XFSAA and 4 times that on 3Dmark2003! I used to have that with 1GB DDR400, P4 2.4, Sata drives etc, it ran stuff fine, it runs BF2 OK but takes years to load up and runs on low settinsg with no FSAA and textures set to performance. With my 3500 939pin chip, 2GB DDR400 in dual channel, X800XT it runs max settings, all ATI control panel settings maxed out, AAX16, FSAAX6, adaptive and temporal AA on, 1280X1024 and its incredibly smooth on 64 player servers, it even loads up in about 8 seconds. The peformance difference over my old AGP set up is massive.

Xiolablu3
10-07-2005, 01:02 PM
PCI E is no benefit at all right now. AGP 8x is a big enough 'hose pipe'(tunnel) to fit the 'water' (graphics data) through. PCI-E does NOTHING to make it faster, its the new graphics card which is faster on WOLFs system.

Who knows when this will change and make a difference. Maybe in 6 months? A year?

It depends how high you have your graphics and at what resolution. Someone who plays at 1024x768 with no AA may go over a year before they see any benefit from PCI E.

I dont pay for things that have no benefit, I would stick with AGP for now until we hit that bottleneck and upgrade your motherboard to PCI E next time round. It will be MUCH cheaper then too.

There are still very fast AGP cards out there. Get yourself a 6800GT AGP or a ATI X800 card, you will see a massive boost. Your cpu is still fine.

PF/FB will NEVER fill that hosepipe with graphics data even if you had everything on full, BOB probably will though.

Badsight.
10-07-2005, 01:38 PM
1 Gig is nice

2 Gig is far better , especially for modern games & games coming out

Games like Memory like never before , & when its all being used - you get cr@p gameplay

Badsight.
10-07-2005, 01:40 PM
Chuck , read this . 8X isnt even used fully on some games still , the 16X speed will eliminate a possible bottleneck in the future , but at least for now AGP is still fine
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
PCI E is no benefit at all right now. AGP 8x is a big enough 'hose pipe'(tunnel) to fit the 'water' (graphics data) through. PCI-E does NOTHING to make it faster, its the new graphics card which is faster on WOLFs system. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

SlickStick
10-07-2005, 01:56 PM
As stated, even AGP 8x is not saturated at the moment. The main reason to go PCI-E is if you are building a new system as it's the future platform. Any new system should be built around PCI-e or SLI as AGP support is fading.

The extra bandwidth and benefits of a PCI-E vs AGP 8x, although not adding much in raw FPS, goes a long way for smoother, stutter-free gameplay when there is allot of graphics action. Also, higher settings would probably be able to be run. A CPU upgrade or platform upgrade would do Chuck much better use at this time.

For me, buying a 6800 AGP for instance, makes no sense as my next mobo will not have an AGP slot. I always buy with the best upgrade path available for later. Now, in the computer biz that's not always a long time, but I get the most out of older, lower-priced parts and make them work harder. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

Ankanor
10-07-2005, 04:07 PM
Actually, the only real improvement of the PCI Express is the increased performance when you crate video clips. Had something to do with the increased level of communication between the card and the rest of the system, if I'm not mistaken. something of the sort with the difference between a ADSL(say 512Kbits upload/6Mbit download) and SDSL(6 Mbit in both directions). But the real reasons should be sought in producers wanting a new standard and also that they are going to make a lot of money in that way. Imagine, If you want a new GPU, you have to buy a new mobo, maybe a new processor and in some cases a new soundcard. And that is in the event that your mobo supports the old DDR-1. My advice would be to stick with your current system and save your money for the near future. Only if you really want to buy something, buy RAM or better PSU. More RAM never hurt anybody and a good PSU with more power is a good investment in both stability and functionality. The only problem in this situation is the added cost for electricity, but only if you don't go for an intelligent approach http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Chuck_Older
10-07-2005, 04:11 PM
Thanks for the input

My choice right now seems to be for a reasonably priced higher end nVidia for a small to medium performance boost, and save the rest of the dough for RAM. I'm not worried about a PC for BoB yet. I'll do that after I see what the specs needed for the game are http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif I really can't complain about the 5700 Ultra I have, It was cheap, and a great choice for an easy to afford good card, but I would like a bit more performance, and maybe at 32 bit

p1ngu666
10-07-2005, 04:29 PM
surprised u cant run at 32bit tbh

pci-e by itself shouldnt be the buying point. that u can have faster cards on that slot and sli http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

sli is faster when u load it up, otherwise your cpu limited. i like my eyecandy so i hope to go SLI soon http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Chuck_Older
10-07-2005, 04:33 PM
I mostly can use 32bit, but with 16 bit, it's nearly as good and I have a little extra muscle if there's 50+ a/c in the mission

WOLFMondo
10-07-2005, 05:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
PCI E is no benefit at all right now. AGP 8x is a big enough 'hose pipe'(tunnel) to fit the 'water' (graphics data) through. PCI-E does NOTHING to make it faster, its the new graphics card which is faster on WOLFs system. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The 2 dual channels of DDR400 meeting with a 2000mhz FSB also does allot for ithttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif. As does an Nforce4 chipset.

Your right, PCIe allows more bandwidth but sticking with AGP, buying an AGP mobo or GFX card might mean you have to invest again sooner than if you bought more future proofed hardware using technology you can upgrade in 2-3 years. If you buy a mobo now which has an AGP slot, in a few years you'll be hard pressed to update.

BoB will be out in a years time, do you really want to upgrade again in a years time? or 3 years? Investing in old hardware now is a dead end.

Xiolablu3, do you have a PCIe system? Speaking from experiance?

Chuck_Older
10-07-2005, 05:11 PM
Well, for me, a better AGP would not be going on a new PC. I'd put it in my folk's PC when I upgrade to a new PC, so my Mom could download all sorts of infected files from her sisters, who know even less about PCs than my Mom (if possible), so the PC can chug along between the times when I clean the thing out and make it run smoothly again

I wouldn't upgrade this PC to specs that would run BoB; it's three years old and I'd have to do everything in the PC over. I'd be better off learning all over how to build a PC

Monty_Thrud
10-07-2005, 05:32 PM
Surely for that money you could buy a 2.8Ghz cpu and get say a 6600...?...

SlickStick
10-07-2005, 06:38 PM
I'm with you, Chuck.

I'm currently still running XP2600(333) with Ti 4200 128MB, 1GB DDR333 and it runs the game more than adequately enough on all excellent to let me hold off until a 64-bit system is the norm. Some fast hardware out there now and more in the pipeline.

I just like to wait until the market gets saturated a bit. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Xiolablu3
10-12-2005, 07:19 PM
Sorry Wolf, I missed this thread and only just checked these replies.


No I dont have a PCI-E system m8, I have just read up on it. Your PCI-E will be great for the future and I am not slating it at all, its a great step forward. I'm just saying that its not used yet as games dont even have enuff graphics data to bottleneck at the AGP 8x tunnel.

As Chuck only has a 5700 then I would suggest he gets a X800 or 6800 card because he will still see a massive performance boost from this, thats all.

Had he already got this card and was wanting to upgrade then I would suggest a PCI-E system with all bells and whistles. I just think he will be more than happy with the massive jump from a 5700 to GF6800/ATI X800.

This card will play PF/FB at almost full settings and then he can save his money for when BOB comes out.

Oilburner_TAW
10-12-2005, 09:39 PM
Chuck, here is the best bet for you. Extra memory is a wast for PF, I have a gig and don't even use it all when playing. For instant gratification, here you go...

1st, the comparison in PF 4xAA,8xAF (you don't want any jaggies ;O )

http://graphics.tomshardware.com/graphic/20050705/vga-charts-pcie-12.html

Buy either one of these and you'll be grinning from ear to ear.

ATIx800xt @ newegg $309 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.asp?Manufactory=&PropertyCodeValue=679%3A9552&PropertyCodeValue=0&PropertyCodeValue=0&PropertyCodeValue=0&PropertyCodeValue=0&PropertyCodeValue=0&PropertyCodeValue=696%3A9639&PropertyCodeValue=0&PropertyCodeValue=0&PropertyCodeValue=0&PropertyCodeValue=0&PropertyCodeValue=0&PropertyCodeValue=0&PropertyCodeValue=0&description=&MinPrice=&MaxPrice=&SubCategory=48&Submit=Property)

6800GT @ Newegg $299 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814122195)

REDHAWK_1
10-12-2005, 11:44 PM
~S~ All!!!!!
Chuck I up grade my PC about 6 months ago. This is what I got:
Asus A8N-SLI Deluxe 939 pin socket MB
ATI Radeon X800XL PCI Express 256mb V-card 16 pipeline
2gig of ram
550 dual fan Power Supply
AMD Athlon XP 64 bit processor 939 pin 2.01gig
Maxtor 200gig HD
A Sony Double layer DVD player
Plus a couple of cooling fans for HD and case
The cost was about $1,500 total to up grade. I haven't had any problems running any of my Flight sims on excellent settings at all esp in IL2.
The Asus MD is great because you can run either 32 bit and/or 64 bit OS. Has an automatic over clocking in it. It will overclock your system when ever you need it and when the program is finish it automaticlly go back to normal speed.
Plus it has two PCI express slots so you can use two PCI express cards in it, you can also go the sata way too. Plus the fact you can use any AMD 64 bit processor in it as long as it is a 939 pin socket. The built in sound card is a Realtex, 8.2 channel and I haven't had any problems with music. The sound quity is great.
Also if you want to use two PCI express cards they will have to be the same type card. So far ATI haven't made a card to be bridge together. But Nvida does. Then ATI might have by now. You will find that the PCI express cards alot better both in grafics and in speed.
Here is Asus web site: http://usa.asus.com//news_show.aspx?id=1380
here is ATI web site: http://www.ati.com/products/radeonx800/specs.html
and here is AMD web site: http://www.amd.com
So Chuck check out these site and you will get an ideal of what you might want.
I hope I was some help to you.
Redhawk_1

WOLFMondo
10-13-2005, 12:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by REDHAWK_1:
So far ATI haven't made a card to be bridge together. But Nvida does. Then ATI might have by now. You will find that the PCI express cards alot better both in grafics and in speed.
Here is Asus web site: </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

They have and its called CrossFirehttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif. I've seen a couple of PC's with SLI running and for the price vs power, its not really worth it, the gain in FPS isn't as great as you'd think.

Capt_Pepper
10-13-2005, 11:38 AM
Chuck€¦..

A word about your 5700 Ultra vs. the 6800GT as well as putting in more ram€¦€¦
(My system is a P4, 3.02, with an 865 mb, AGP.)

I purchased the 5700 Ultra shortly after it came out which ran the game just fine€¦.even in Perfect when off line with no problems. After reading all the hoopla about the 6800, I was able to upgrade about two months ago to a 6800GT. Honestly, the only significant improvement I got was fps when on line: depending of course on the map, server and amount of players, I€d average about 28 to 32 with the Ultra (in excellent). With the 6800GT, fps improved to the low 40€s (average) with spikes up to the high 60€s. While that is quite a jump, this improved performance was not really noticeable.

That was just about the only difference, and as someone already mentioned, while fps is important, it€s not all it€s made out to be past a certain point. In fact, I almost took the 6800 back.

Additionally, you should be aware that NVidea is having all kinds of driver issues with IL right now with all of its newer cards, and these problems are still ongoing. I never had these problems with the 5700 Ultra€¦..ever.

As for more ram€¦€¦I started with 512, then went to 1 gig, then to 1.5 (through which I learned I had to have a balanced system), then to 2 gig. There was a huge difference between 512 and 1 gig, but not much noticeable difference when I increased beyond that. True, my whole system benefited and seemed to run more smoothly overall, but game-wise, it was nearly unnoticeable after the 1 gig was in.

Personally in retrospect, the 5700 Ultra was a better card than I thought and worked just fine. As well, 1 gig Ram was all I needed. That said, with a limited budget, I would keep what you have (unless you€re having problems) and wait a while until the PCIe system settles in more as the new standard and is fully supported. At that time, I too will upgrade to a significantly better system overall.

Hope this helps somewhat.