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Metallicaner
05-28-2004, 03:24 PM
I'm curious about why did the Stukas have sirens??

I mean, it couldn't have been because to warn the enemy like "RUN! We are gonna bomb you, so hide if you don't want to get killed"...

Metallicaner
05-28-2004, 03:24 PM
I'm curious about why did the Stukas have sirens??

I mean, it couldn't have been because to warn the enemy like "RUN! We are gonna bomb you, so hide if you don't want to get killed"...

XyZspineZyX
05-28-2004, 03:27 PM
purely psychological impact.

straight from the mouth of a stuka gunner i know.

http://www3.telus.net/ice51/taipans/tpn_bard.jpg (http://taipans.dyndns.org/)

Chuck_Older
05-28-2004, 03:29 PM
It scared the living beejesus out of troops, horses, civilians, you name it.

Don't look at it as a 21st century person, look at it as if airpower was still a new, not fully understood thing.

*****************************
The hillsides ring with, "Free the People",
Or can I hear the echoes from the days of '39?
~ Clash

SeaFireLIV
05-28-2004, 03:30 PM
I remember one poster said ages ago that it was to warn people to get outta the way! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif I had a good chuckle on that one!

maxim26
05-28-2004, 03:35 PM
If I'm not mistaken Stukas have no sirens. The sound you are talking about is produced by air brake. Pilots applyed air brake during the dive to slow it down for better aiming. Thet's all the secret.

boxmike
05-28-2004, 03:35 PM
Waiting another answer for that also. All accounts and sources I've read point only to psychological effect.

RACFrankenstein
05-28-2004, 03:39 PM
There actually was a siren, it was attached to one of the wheel struts. And, as everyone else pointed out, it was purely psychological.

ForkTailedDevil
05-28-2004, 04:02 PM
Yeah just think about it. Better yet perfect example was the intro to "Enemy at the Gates" where all the troops are packed onto the boat crossing the river and the Stuka's are attacking. I am sure that would be scary.

"You can teach monkey's to fly better than that"

Freiberg1
05-28-2004, 04:22 PM
It's because it is the same sound which is telling all the stupid factory-workers that they are "off" now for the weekend! As soon as they step outside in the free...<kaboom>!!

Jieitai_Tsunami
05-28-2004, 04:22 PM
Yes there was a siren maxim, if it was just the air-brake it would go puuuuummm as the wind slaps against the wing lol http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

I think in this game some people are confused about what war is actually about. All true life pilots say they are aiming to put the aircraft of there objective out of action and not to kill the pilot.

So if the Stuka has a siren the people driving the tanks or what ever would be saying "Sh*t!! its a Stuka!! runnnn!!". Then you blow it up and the people have nothing to shoot you down with...Half the job is done just with a little siren hehe

http://www.jieitai.bravehost.com/http://www.jieitai.bravehost.com/Images/Main%20logo.jpg

ploughman
05-28-2004, 05:09 PM
It's shock and awe. Scare the krupp out of the enemy and they bugger off and that's that. Blitzkrieg was war-lite for the 1940s.

LEXX_Luthor
05-28-2004, 05:37 PM
Hs~123 Biplane ground attack pilots could adjust prop pitch and the loud Whine would make enemy soldiers below panic because close air support over battlefield was a new thing infantry never expected, but it was well researched by the Germans in Spanish Civil WAR.

Later in the WAR, ground attack pilots began to have reasons to fear soldiers on the ground armed to the teeth with anti~aircraft weapons. But not in 1939. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

__________________
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:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

heywooood
05-28-2004, 05:44 PM
Why did Stukas have sirens?...

the harmonicas they tried first only frightened the housecats... not the alleycats mind you..just the housecats. It took a siren to scare the soldiers.

Tooz_69GIAP
05-28-2004, 06:08 PM
http://baseclass.modulweb.dk/69giap/fileadmin/69_giap_private/images/Stuka_siren_pic.jpg

http://baseclass.modulweb.dk/69giap/fileadmin/69_giap_private/images/Stuka_siren_descript.jpg

http://baseclass.modulweb.dk/69giap/fileadmin/69_giap_private/images/Stuka_siren_descript2.jpg

They were used as psychological warfare, and when the effect began to wear off, they stopped using them so much.

whit ye looking at, ya big jessie?!?!

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Za Rodinu!

SeaFireLIV
05-28-2004, 06:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tooz_69GIAP:
They were used as psychological warfare, and when the effect began to wear off, they stopped using them so much.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good stuff that`ll clarify things nicely. I guess once soldiers were `steeled` against the sirens, they just proved an advanced warning of `Here I come, please shoot me down.` No point using em after that.

LeadSpitter_
05-28-2004, 07:18 PM
didnt the germans put them on some bi plane of thiers too, to make opposing ground forces think thier was stukas in the area.

I think it was the Hs126 but not positive. Theres to many aircraft to keep track of http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://img14.photobucket.com/albums/v43/leadspitter/LSIG1.gif

BS87
05-28-2004, 10:35 PM
Yes, just think. If you heard that easr splitting scream right above you, would you not atleast look up, if not run in terror?

JG77_Tintin
05-29-2004, 02:10 AM
The Jericho sirens were on Ju87's till the last of D3's where the siren mount was removed from the production line. Not on the D5, although I have seen pictures of D1's & D3's (in Nth Africa, I think) with the little propellor removed but the siren mount still there. Later in the war Germans didn't find it cost effective to keep them on or install them. Allied Ack Ack crews woke up to the fact that ignoring the sream, staying at the guns, firing away was the best option and deterent. Thats what the Australians did at Tobruk in April 41 and they were always able to keep the port open during the siege. As to why they were used, well put yourself in the place of a soldier sixty plus years ago. I'm sure that even you would find mud in your pants after undergoing a dive bombing attack.

Geist_3.JG51
05-29-2004, 04:13 AM
I believe I remember hearing they were removed to reduce drag......

http://pics.montypics.com/Geist/2004-05-26/1085635037_jd_pr_067.jpg

F19_Ob
05-29-2004, 04:26 AM
A vital part of warfare is to discourage and confuse the civilian pert of the enemy, well the soldiers too ofcourse. The sirens meant that "we are attacking U now in this moment and we want u to know it" ... Machinegunning civilians was another trick. These alongside many other ideas worked well in many theatres.

Dem4n
05-29-2004, 04:59 AM
What really intrigues me now is how the pilot felt diving 1000 meters at 400 Km/h? Musta been frightning. Wonder if it can be compared to a rollercoaster. Although they aren't nearly as fast and almost no Gs.

http://www.photodump.com/direct/MjrKoenig/lrg1543.jpg

"I don't know what weapons well be fighting with in WWIII, but in WWIV it will be sticks and stones." -Einstein

ptegomerpyle
05-29-2004, 06:16 AM
It was there for terror as far as I know.

http://img3.photobucket.com/albums/v32/PrivatePyle/minge.jpg

Heavy_Weather
05-29-2004, 06:27 AM
it was referred to as the Horn of Jericho

"To fly a combat mission is not a trip under the moon. Every attack, every bombing is a dance with death."
- Serafima Amsova-Taranenko: Noggle, Ann (1994): A Dance with Death.

Atomic_Marten
05-29-2004, 09:55 AM
Because sirens scared living cr@p out of enemy soldiers&civilians. Some idea I must say...

BS87
05-29-2004, 12:43 PM
I need to find one and mount it to the front of my car http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Dem4n
05-29-2004, 01:14 PM
I wanna see you dive from 2000 meters in that car. Siren whining, you whining.

Scary picture. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif

http://www.photodump.com/direct/MjrKoenig/lrg1543.jpg

"I don't know what weapons well be fighting with in WWIII, but in WWIV it will be sticks and stones." -Einstein

JG27_Grumpy
05-29-2004, 08:20 PM
Because wind chimes would have been lame, and they kept losing the playing cards in the spokes of the landing gear after take off. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

LEXX_Luthor
05-29-2004, 09:24 PM
Stuka pilots mounted the siren so they would not have to listen anymore to the guy in the back Whining "what are you doing."

__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack


"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

BS87
05-29-2004, 10:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dem4n:
I wanna see you dive from 2000 meters in that car. Siren whining, you whining.

Scary picture. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif

http://www.photodump.com/direct/MjrKoenig/lrg1543.jpg

"I don't know what weapons well be fighting with in WWIII, but in WWIV it will be sticks and stones." -Einstein<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm a scary person http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/icon_twisted.gif

But i think at about 60-70 mph itbe a nice low scream, and if not, you can just put it somehwere down wind from a turbo, so once it spools up the world knows it http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

ImpStarDuece
05-30-2004, 07:02 AM
The Stuka wasn't the only German weapon to have sirens mounted on it for psychological warfare puropses. Read accounts of Allied troops around the Normandy bridgehead and you will hear lots about 'Moaning Minnies' (Canadian and British parlance) and 'Screaming Meemies (US parlance).

These were German Nebelwerfer rockets, or rocket bombs/mortarbombs as they were refered to at the time. Came in 150, 210 and 300mm calibers, weighted between 30 and 130 kg and had a range of up to 8500m. Launched from a 6-10 barrelled tube grouping they could be launched seperately or as a group and had a distinctive siren that exacerbated shell shock in allied troops. Without the sirens attached troops said they sounded like an express buss heading straight down a highway at you.

They were often fired at irregular intervals and smaller calibers would often have one or more rockets with the siren removed. three or four would be launched singily with sirens and then the rest of the salvo would be loosed without sirens hopefully catching unwary troops.

"There's no such thing as gravity, the earth sucks!"

hos8367
05-30-2004, 01:52 PM
I believe psychological warfare was the main reason, but I have also heard that it confused people on the ground as to which way the stukas were coming from during night bombing missions. The wail of the siren made it hard for spotlight crews to determine thier position as it would cover up the engine noise.

GonzoX
05-30-2004, 04:05 PM
I was the one that originaly posted that I read somewhere years ago that the siren was to warn civilians. Im glad that people got a chuckle out of it. It's odd that nobody thinks that there was any galantry or gentlemeness in WWII and that it was only reserved for WWI. Not true. Some of the argument against it is purly post-WWII propaganda still at work 60 years later. And part is simply ignorance.

There were many instances in WWII and one in particular where German and Allied officers agreed to not destroy a purly civilian populated French town and chose to move their tanks out of town. They both basically knew and agreed to where they were going to do battle at beforehand. Not everybody was in the SS or was in the NAZI party.

In the case of the Stuka, one must remember that it was built way before WWII stared and that it was the ONLY luftwaffe bird AFAIK that had the siren on it.

I don't think that the Luftwaffe used 500lb bombs to kill civilians or even simple infantry. That would make no sense as it would not be cost effective. A bridge or building OTOH would be worth the bomb, fuel and risk etc. Just food for thought.

BennyMoore
06-03-2004, 10:33 PM
While I agree that there was some of that chivalry in both wars, the fact is that it was the exception and not the rule.

Manfred von Richthofen said in his autobiography that German pilots dreaded being shot down over the Russian front because it meant certain death at the hands of the ground troops.

Edward "Mick" Mannock, the highest scoring Allied pilot of the Great War, always attempted to set his kills' engines on fire becaues it was the worst way he could kill them. He also liked to follow them to the deck to watch them crash.

Another Allied pilot went aloft in a rage after a friend was killed and bounced an unarmed aircraft. He held his fire until he was so close that the enemy pilot's blood went through his propwash and filmed over his goggles.

I remember reading one account in which a French pilot was downed over No Man's Land. He was wounded and trapped in the wreckage, but each time a party on either side approached him they were beaten back by the other side. Finally the Germans simply sprayed the wreckage until there was no doubt about the pilot's survival.

Once, a German soldier was somehow caught in barbed wire in No Man's Land for an extended period of time. His screams were audible. An Allied soldier climbed out of his trench and, amidst fire, crawled to the German soldier. He freed him from the barbed wire and then carried him to the German lines. Both sides stopped firing altogether as they saw what he was doing. As the Allied soldier turned to go back to his own trench, a German officer took the medal from his own chest and pinned it to his enemies. Both sides resumed firing after the Allied soldier made it back.

Georges Guynemer always tried to aim for the propeller so that other guy would have a chance to land. He would often visit them with a bottle of wine after they were captured, and (I believe) send condolences to the families of those who did not survive the landing.

TAGERT.
06-03-2004, 10:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Metallicaner:
I'm curious about why did the Stukas have sirens??<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>sirens? news to me, I was under the impression that the siren sound was due to the constant pitch props... alot of early 30s aricraft made that high pitch noise in a dive due to the lack of prop pitch..

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Metallicaner:
I mean, it couldn't have been because to warn the enemy like "RUN! We are gonna bomb you, so hide if you don't want to get killed"...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>LOL! Yeah.. like they needed to psychological impact.. I mean just seeing aircraft over head diving on you is all I would need to be psyc out! Heck.. Even if they did have them I woundnt even hear them over the sound of that high pitch girlish screen comming out of my mouth! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

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ELEM
06-04-2004, 06:47 AM
http://img35.photobucket.com/albums/v107/Elem_Klimov/Stuka_siren.jpg

Stuka siren. 'nuff said?

I wouldn't join any club that would have ME as member!

http://img35.photobucket.com/albums/v107/Elem_Klimov/I-16_desktop.jpg

TAGERT.
06-04-2004, 08:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ELEM:
nuff said?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Honestly.. no.. Cool picture and all.. but it just opens up more qustiions reall.

First would be.. where does the sound orginate from? Looking at a trditional siren.. hand crank type.. there would be point where the sound would exit from.. ie an opening.. vents.. something.. like in this picture

http://www.siren.co.jp/img/siren/hand_s.jpg

I guess you could assume it faces backwards and blows into the leg of the strut.. but that would be a wastes of sound.. Or maybe this little prop is not turing a mech siren and it working off the constant prop pitch thing I mentioned.. it is clearly fixed.

Second thing that comes to mind.. How is it engauged? Assuming it is a mech siren.. you would need some method of turing it on.. Otherwise the stuka's would be hearing it during normal flight.. And not just dives.. I guess it could be electric clutch or silonod to engage it.. But that is sure making it all too complicated. Or again.. based on the constant prop pitch thing I pointed out.. it could be that just at high speeds it would start to whine.. As is the case in a dive.

Interesting stuff.. but Im not totally sold on the idea yet.. But than again, what other purpose would they have? I thought they were some sort of speed measuring devices.. but why two of them? ie one on each leg?

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HamishUK
06-04-2004, 08:44 AM
I would be sold on the idea as there is a working model at RAF Hendon on demonstration!!

The siren is electrically engaged from the cockpit. The small prop spins in flight anyway but the actual siren engaged by the pilot electrically (solonoid contact) from the cockpit. A solonoid is not complicated at all!



I also suggest reading this book.

Stuka-Pilot Hans-Ulrich Rudel: His Life Story in Words in Photographs

I quote:

The screaming siren of the Junkers Ju 87 dive-bomber was, at least for the early part of the war, synonymous with German blitzkrieg tactics and Nazi prowess. Highly popular with the Propaganda Ministry, the Stukas represent the peak of German military might. It was usually deployed before the army's attack and would soften any known defensive strong points. In the heat of the battle, however, army commanders would radio the Luftwaffe to send Stukas to destroy any unexpected opposition. When air superiority was obtained, the seagull-looking Stukas would harass retreating or trapped Allied troops. The plane was used extensively and almost exclusively to support army operation. The tight and smooth cooperation and communication between army and Luftwaffe commanders were the key elements in the successful campaign in 1940. The Ju 87 was slow and had a limited range, but it was a surprisingly accurate bomber. The bombs were basically controlled by the pilot until the very last moment. Usually a wing of 30 Stukas would attack a target in 10 groups of three planes. The common practice of a pilot was to begin his dive at 15,000ft at an angle of 60o-90o, turn on the cardboard siren, and dive earthward at up to 350mph. He would drop the bomb at around 2,000ft, and then immediately pull up the nose and overcome a force of four G to resume level flight. The Ju 87B was armed with two forward firing machine-guns, one machine gun in the rear cockpit for defense, four 110lb-bombs under the wings, and one 551lb-bomb under the fuselage in a clutch.

http://www.blitzpigs.com/photos/Ham1.jpg

[This message was edited by HamishUK on Fri June 04 2004 at 08:02 AM.]

ELEM
06-04-2004, 08:55 AM
If you do a search on Google you can find plenty of references to it.

This site is quite good:-

http://users.belgacom.net/aircraft1/avion1/161.html

I wouldn't join any club that would have ME as member!

http://img35.photobucket.com/albums/v107/Elem_Klimov/I-16_desktop.jpg

HamishUK
06-04-2004, 09:09 AM
Also here..about third from bottom in some trivia. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/351.gif


http://www.asianaerospace.com/inf_trivia.asp

http://www.blitzpigs.com/photos/Ham1.jpg

TAGERT.
06-04-2004, 02:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HamishUK:
I would be sold on the idea as there is a working model at RAF Hendon on demonstration!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Cool!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HamishUK:
The siren is electrically engaged from the cockpit. The small prop spins in flight anyway but the actual siren engaged by the pilot electrically (solonoid contact) from the cockpit.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Cockpit.. check! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HamishUK:
A solonoid is not complicated at all!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Agreed 100%... but the system as a whole... seems... more complicated then it is worth. But, that is comming from a guy who does not put much value on the psyc effect it would have.. re-reading some of the post here.. some seem to think it was to WARN civilian and other seem to think it was to PSYC the troops.. I dont see how warning civilians would factor in.. unless you were purposely bombing civilians.. so I guess it was more of a psyc value.. Not to be confused with other sound psyc things in war.. like Scottish bagpipes for example.. I think seeing the aircraft over head diving on me would be all the psyc out I would need! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif And from what others have posted with regard to them just removing them later on.. seems like they too came to the same conclusion I did... But at least you have sold me on the idea that it was indeed a siren! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Wouldnt be the 1st time the germans did something wacky!

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