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rnzoli
11-24-2005, 03:25 AM
First time I tried this amazing plane, but have terrible difficulties to land it undamaged. Although I can land taildraggers smoothly most of the time, I have not once been able to land the P39 without propellor damage. It bounces very easily when landing with high angle of attack, and pitches up immediately, and then comes down with the propeller hitting the ground... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

I guess the the problem is the difference caused by the tricycle gear and the center of gravity being more aft (at the back).

What's the trick to do this well? What do I have to do differently from tail-wheeled aircraft?

anarchy52
11-24-2005, 03:27 AM
Originally posted by rnzoli:
First time I tried this amazing plane, but have terrible difficulties to land it undamaged. Although I can land taildraggers smoothly most of the time, I have not once been able to land the P39 without propellor damage. It bounces very easily when landing with high angle of attack, and pitches up immediately, and then comes down with the propeller hitting the ground... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

I guess the the problem is the difference caused by the tricycle gear and the center of gravity being more aft (at the back).

What's the trick to do this well? What do I have to do differently from tail-wheeled aircraft?

either undermodelled weight/overmodelled lift or you're landing with too high descent rate

nakamura_kenji
11-24-2005, 03:36 AM
sound you drop quick to and damage gear. i take much shallow approch unless it carrier landing this reduce bounce problem huge ^_^. i fly about 2, 3m above ground when apprach just reduce engine power let altitude drop gentle if drop shart runway just increase power bit to keep in air then cut thrrottle and gentle touch down runway.

polak5
11-24-2005, 03:58 AM
I dont fly this bird much but ive heard if u can land the 190 with ezze then u can lower the other birds with ease.

neural_dream
11-24-2005, 04:05 AM
Originally posted by rnzoli:
It bounces very easily when landing with high angle of attack, and pitches up immediately, and then comes down with the propeller hitting the ground... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
Don't land with high level of attack, don't land with speed higher than 180km/h, prepare your descent early, and remember that the rate of descent is dictated by the throttle, so don't cut it completely (play with it at about 15-35% during the descent).
I'm surprised that you have problems with the P39. It's one of the 2-3 easiest to land in the game.

Kuna15
11-24-2005, 04:07 AM
Originally posted by polak5:
I dont fly this bird much but ive heard if u can land the 190 with ezze then u can lower the other birds with ease.

That is true from my PoV too. FW-190 is not easy to land due to mostly one fact; although it has excellent landing gear plane itself has tendency to keep speed in straight flight regardless of flaps position. One must use rudder and ailerons to slow down. This however worked just fine before but now in 4.xx patch series this is harder as if one gives plane to much yank-wank plane wont listen and is likely to crash.

P-39 itself is not that hard to land one must be careful to slow down enough and to approach with shallow angle deploy brakes etc.

Bf-109 on the other hand ironically is not hard to land in FB as it is now compared to many planes http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif. It slows down better than most planes, and that is I presume the biggest problems one can have in FB landings.

Also MiG-3U and I-185 are tough planes on take off because they have big prop that can easily be busted in ground if one does not care.

polak5
11-24-2005, 04:18 AM
^^^ yup kuna, i mean sometimes 200 kph dosent slow my bird down enough. on my 190

rnzoli
11-24-2005, 04:25 AM
FW-190 is not easy to land due to mostly one fact; although it has excellent landing gear plane itself has tendency to keep speed in straight flight regardless of flaps position. One must use rudder and ailerons to slow down.
I have no problem to land the FW-190s, although I noticed first time that this bird just shoots across the airport without any intention to stop! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif But I also use the wheel brakes to slow down it, you know... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Maybe my specific problem is that I am used to bleed airspeed during the flare by slowly increasing the angle of attack before the touchdown, so I am doing something like a 3-point landing (almost). The landing roll is quite short that way.

This won't cut it with P39 because of the different gear arrangement, so instead I should probably listen to nakamura_kenji and add a little power before the flare, in order to keep the angle of attack as well as the descent rate low. But in this case, I have to get used to a longer landing roll.

nakamura_kenji
11-24-2005, 04:27 AM
this sound dumb but i no flair to lose speed i wobble rudder like fish on ki-61/100 ^_^ that way i see where go than no able see runway cause nose.

different people differnt technique

Slechtvalk
11-24-2005, 04:42 AM
Just land it like any other plane but right after the 'wing'wheels have touched the ground slowly move your stick forward untill your nose wheel touched the ground and keep the nose wheel on the ground. And the other main difference compared with other planes is the extra lift with landing flaps out.(if you keep stick centred after deploying landing flaps you almost go 90 degrees up) which makes landing a bit different aswell which smells fishy though, must be a FM error?

Kuna15
11-24-2005, 04:55 AM
Originally posted by rnzoli:
This won't cut it with P39 because of the different gear arrangement, so instead I should probably listen to nakamura_kenji and add a little power before the flare, in order to keep the angle of attack as well as the descent rate low. But in this case, I have to get used to a longer landing roll.

Agreed 100%. I always give my aircraft a bit of throttle prior to ground contact (up to around 30%) because of better handling.

Key to everything is to be slow enough on approach. Higher speed approach planes are generally harder to land.

Kuna15
11-24-2005, 05:17 AM
p39_landtrack (http://free-vk.t-com.hr/domagoj/tracks/402__kuna_p39land_trk.rar)

vanjast
11-24-2005, 05:24 AM
I know the AI like an approach of just above stall speed when landing. I never been able to do this, soooo....

In my FW I make sure I cross the runway threshold at 200kph. At this point I cut back slowly on the throttle easing the nose up as we go. Most touch downs are purrrrrfect, fast but purrrrfect.

you can use this same approach for all A/C and can be generally considered the safest way to do it.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

neural_dream
11-24-2005, 06:04 AM
Frankly the only reason to cause a bad landing is impatience.

F16_Neo
11-24-2005, 07:03 AM
Descend rather steeply, full flaps @ 190 kph.
Cut power & flare just abovee runway, let the plane slow to a near stall at 160 kph, put it down, immidiate at touchdown RAISE FLAPS! This stabilises your plane, it won't bounce nearly as much.

SE_Aetos
11-24-2005, 07:07 AM
I fly the P39/P63 90 percent of the time.

Landing speed about 180 to 200 with land flaps, RPMs low. Touch down with rear wheels (wings wheels). The key is that before they touch down, have the wheel brakes applied. I know this is instant death in a trail dragger, but you have that noise gear that will prevent you from going nose over. With the breaks on the wing wheels will cause drag and the nose wheel will slam down and stick on the runway. The plane will not bounce at all if you have the wheel brakes on, just don't come down at too hard an angle or you will break the gear.

Give that a try and let me know how it works for ya...

SE_Aetos

tomtheyak
11-24-2005, 07:08 AM
Shallow approach at 110-120mph with full flaps and gear - the trick to flying all warbirds is to fly against the flaps. Don't stall the 39, just let her touch by herself, with a litle back stick so the mains touch first but the nose wheel almost immediately after.

Hope this helps!

rnzoli
11-24-2005, 07:14 AM
Originally posted by SE_Aetos:
The key is that before they touch down, have the wheel brakes applied.
It's excellent that you mentioned it. I was wondering quietly about this possibility, but I was afraid that the nose wheel structure would collapse when the main landing gears touch (slam) the ground. Apparently, it works then within normal speed limits. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Will try and report the result http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

rnzoli
11-24-2005, 08:11 AM
Originally posted by Kuna15:
p39_landtrack (http://free-vk.t-com.hr/domagoj/tracks/402__kuna_p39land_trk.rar)
Thanks for the tracks http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif
My bounce + pitch-up was similar to your wobbly landing, only larger bounce. I noticed in your case that it was the nose wheel that touched down a fraction of a second earlier than the main gears. Maybe this was my problem, too. I will replay my own landings later today.

LStarosta
11-24-2005, 08:14 AM
Originally posted by nakamura_kenji:
sound you drop quick to and damage gear. i take much shallow approch unless it carrier landing this reduce bounce problem huge ^_^. i fly about 2, 3m above ground when apprach just reduce engine power let altitude drop gentle if drop shart runway just increase power bit to keep in air then cut thrrottle and gentle touch down runway.

Sounds like a good plan, minus the sharting.

p-11.cAce
11-24-2005, 09:34 AM
Good landings start well before you turn final. Set up a standard pattern and stick to it - On downwind slow down and get in some flaps, when 45 degrees past the end of the runway turn 90 degrees to base and dump the gear and another notch of flaps, turn another 90 degrees to line up with the runway and dump the rest of the flaps, trim for touchdown speed + a few kmph and just let it fly itself to the runway. I've not had trouble landing any of the a/c using this technique - no different than landing my Blanik in r/l http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif (well except the Blanik has no engine no I'm pretty careful setting up my landings http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

SE_Aetos
11-24-2005, 09:55 AM
Originally posted by rnzoli:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SE_Aetos:
The key is that before they touch down, have the wheel brakes applied.
It's excellent that you mentioned it. I was wondering quietly about this possibility, but I was afraid that the nose wheel structure would collapse when the main landing gears touch (slam) the ground. Apparently, it works then within normal speed limits. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Will try and report the result http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have found that the front gear is pretty strong, unless you have combat damage. If I have damage, then I use less flaps and come in faster, less the plan will be more prone to stall out. If you can't keep the plane straight once on the ground, then let off the brakes and then put them on again once you straighten out.

SE_Aetos

rnzoli
11-24-2005, 11:48 AM
Originally posted by p-11.cAce:
I've not had trouble landing any of the a/c using this technique - no different than landing my Blanik in r/l http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
Well, I bet you don't have any vulchers around when you land your glider http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

And tell us about the "landing gears" on it... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

p-11.cAce
11-24-2005, 01:36 PM
And tell us about the "landing gears" on it...

Hey its got a landing gear! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Well ok it has one wheel http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif But its RETRACTABLE! Though I did forget that once http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

Yeah no "vultures" shooting at me just students cutting me off in the pattern, tow pilots ducking under me on base , and hot shots diving through downwind dumping ballast to show what "great" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif pilots they are http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

rnzoli
11-24-2005, 04:18 PM
Okay, you deserve the credit. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif There's a glider airport near my place, during summer days with good whether it is so busy, there are so many planes soaring in the thermals (turning and banking all the time), that is ALMOST as chaotic as a dogfight furball http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

rnzoli
11-24-2005, 04:26 PM
I looked back my tracks and the problem was that the nose wheel strut was much longer than I imagined (I though of a Cessna somehow), and always touched the ground a little bit too early during the flair, causing this violend bounce of the nose in the air.

The trick is to flare a bit higher and keep the nose up, increase throttle to arrest the descent, and apply brakes before main gear touchdown. Then everything is soft and sweet. The braking effect is not so strong, so the nose wheel doesn't slam to the asphalt/grass.

Thanks for everyone for the tips, especiallly Kuna and Aetos.

VW-IceFire
11-24-2005, 09:07 PM
Just plant the rear wheels down first and let the front wheel just glide down onto the ground.

The front gear is surprisingly bouncy on any tricycle gear aircraft so you always want the rear wheels to absorb the shock and then bring the nose down.

Landing a P-39 is actually fairly easy compared to taildraggers. Not always or in all respects but in general.

Tully__
11-24-2005, 09:38 PM
Originally posted by rnzoli:
I looked back my tracks and the problem was that the nose wheel strut was much longer than I imagined (I though of a Cessna somehow), and always touched the ground a little bit too early during the flair, causing this violend bounce of the nose in the air.

The trick is to flare a bit higher and keep the nose up, increase throttle to arrest the descent, and apply brakes before main gear touchdown. Then everything is soft and sweet. The braking effect is not so strong, so the nose wheel doesn't slam to the asphalt/grass.

Thanks for everyone for the tips, especiallly Kuna and Aetos.

You got it. The main wheels (wing wheels) MUST touch first in a tricycale landing gear aircraft or you WILL bounce. The P-63 is worse, it has a much longer nose wheel. You need to approach with a shallow glide angle and lots of power (30% plus.. if you need less you're starting the approach too high) in these two, forcing a nose high attitude at the touch down to get the main wheels on the ground first.

P.S. Nice tracks Kuna, saved me the trouble http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Freelancer-1
11-25-2005, 02:52 AM
Originally posted by rnzoli:
First time I tried this amazing plane, but have terrible difficulties to land it undamaged. Although I can land taildraggers smoothly most of the time, I have not once been able to land the P39 without propellor damage. It bounces very easily when landing with high angle of attack, and pitches up immediately, and then comes down with the propeller hitting the ground... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

I guess the the problem is the difference caused by the tricycle gear and the center of gravity being more aft (at the back).

What's the trick to do this well? What do I have to do differently from tail-wheeled aircraft?

The more you fly a Cobra, the easier it gets. I can plop one down on a carrier no problem.

It is a lot easier to land than any taildragger. Because you can hit the brakes really hard without worrying about nosing over, you can pretty much fly it onto the runway.

Time and practice is all you need and you'll be smooth in no time.