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Jaa_a
06-17-2004, 01:21 PM
why are the finnish markings the modern ones and not the blue "crosses" as they realy vere?!

Jaa_a
06-17-2004, 01:21 PM
why are the finnish markings the modern ones and not the blue "crosses" as they realy vere?!

Baltar
06-17-2004, 01:34 PM
I don't know what the 'official' line of reasoning was but it isn't hard to figure out. While the blue swastika wasn't actually a nazi symbol, it can easily be confused as such by the uninformed. I don't know if it runs afoul of European anti-Nazi legislation, but for sure it's good marketing. I believe the people upset by (the appearance of) Nazi symbology outnumber those upset by the lack of 'historocity' in this regard. Best to piss off the least people and sell the most product. That's my take on the matter, though, not to be confused with the actual decisions that were made http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Incidentally, if I remember my history correctly, the Finnish roundels are historically accurate if seen during the Lapland conflict. Wasn't a part of the agreement the Fins made with the allies to stop slapping those blue swastikas on their planes?

DuxCorvan
06-17-2004, 01:38 PM
For political correction reasons. FB is also sold in countries where showing anything like looks like a svastika is forbidden. If you look the German planes, they lack the Svastika on the tail vertical surfaces.

Anyway, if you like historical acuracy, you can have the true Finland markings using some programs, such as IL2 Manager that are easily found in the net.

Since I don't remember where I got mine, the guys in this forum will surely help to find what you want.

- Dux Corvan -
http://www.uploadit.org/DuxCorvan/Altamira2.jpg
Ten thousand years of Cantabrian skinning.

HexAngel
06-17-2004, 02:10 PM
You should try AcesHigh'S Mat-Manager v1.70! You can download it here: http://www.leigh-kemp.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/MATfiles.htm ! It's a great tool correcting and enhancing the markings of the planes. But be sure to install everything like mentioned in the readme! I tried it and won't play AEP without this nice "little" tool http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

----------------------------
http://home.mnet-online.de/hexangel/Pics/HexAngelv1.jpg
It's too late now to get out of sight..

Jaa_a
06-18-2004, 03:47 AM
Thx guys!
i hope the manager will work cause im tired of downloading skins whit real markings...

loppenainen
06-18-2004, 05:05 AM
Never understood this idea in a sim.
If the Nazi swastika is distastful due to Nazi crimes and doctrines, then why do we have Soviet stars? Katyn, Warsaw, Hungary, Praga?
Surely a 'nice' Russian tricolor instead?

The von Lorenz cross has as much to do with German Nazism as the swastika used on Carlsberg beer before the war or the swastik of Hinduism.

Lets not tie ourselves in knots over symbols of the past, particularly when we are confused about their meaning and purpose.

(FIN)-Cowboy
06-18-2004, 05:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by loppenainen:
The von Lorenz cross has as much to do with German Nazism as the swastika used on Carlsberg beer before the war or the swastik of Hinduism.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The same is probably true about Von Rosen cross too... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

The Swastika/red star discussion is a very old (and often very hot) subject on these boards so please, let's not start that one again. Even the threads initiated by patch trolls are more civil.

--
Finland Red, Egypt White

loppenainen
06-18-2004, 07:41 AM
Sorry about the slip, the von Lorenz cross was used on Finnish Spitfires?!! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

FritzFrotz
06-18-2004, 07:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by loppenainen:
Sorry about the slip, the von Lorenz cross was used on Finnish Spitfires?!! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course not. Get your facts straight. It was only used in the 109Z squadrons and btw it´s spelled "Von Lorentz".

GonzoX
06-18-2004, 09:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by loppenainen:
Never understood this idea in a sim.
If the Nazi swastika is distastful due to Nazi crimes and doctrines, then why do we have Soviet stars? Katyn, Warsaw, Hungary, Praga?
Surely a 'nice' Russian tricolor instead?

The von Lorenz cross has as much to do with German Nazism as the swastika used on Carlsberg beer before the war or the swastik of Hinduism.

Lets not tie ourselves in knots over symbols of the past, particularly when we are confused about their meaning and purpose.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good God man, do not give them any ideas.

The sim is already politically correct enough as it is.

ELEM
06-18-2004, 10:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jaa_a:
Thx guys!
i hope the manager will work cause im tired of downloading skins whit real markings...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Plenty of good accurate skins at http://www.il2skins.com/

I wouldn't join any club that would have ME as member!

http://img35.photobucket.com/albums/v107/Elem_Klimov/I-16_desktop.jpg

Jaa_a
06-19-2004, 07:04 AM
il2skins.com is the best skin site i have ever seen! But the realistick markings are enough...

niknil
06-19-2004, 09:44 AM
The 'Indizierung' in Germany doesn't allow swastikas in games or anything else except historical information or pictures.

According to what I've heard from army history reenactors, something similar goes for the Netherlands (where the Nazis had very little support, btw).

I don't know about Austria, but since J¶rg Haider (whos party is in the govt coalition) has quoted SS recruitment slogans in public speeches, I'd be surprised if swastikas were forbidden there.

VOL_Hans
06-19-2004, 11:59 AM
The IL-2 Forgotten Battles Hackencrossenabler program by Jiri is also a good one.

I think you can get it from his website.

http://www.altitude.us/missions/The%20Volunteers/hanssig.jpg

Jaa_a
09-26-2004, 02:51 AM
The IL2MAT is the best program out there is think... you can do almost evurthing whit it!

Chuck_Older
09-26-2004, 01:37 PM
Can it turn a crankshaft for me? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif


Dux is about 99.9% right in my opinion, but instead of Ubi being politically correct in outlook, I suspect it's because they just don't care to fight a lawsuit.
FB was written to actually use the correct markings. I d/l'd a program called Il2hk, forget where I got it. It re-enables FB to display the correct markings.

Some folks can't understand the fuss. Well, these same folks often comment on such things as the angle of dihedral being wrong on the P-40. To me, there's no difference in the two issues.

LStarosta
09-26-2004, 01:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by loppenainen:
Never understood this idea in a sim.
If the Nazi swastika is distastful due to Nazi crimes and doctrines, then why do we have Soviet stars? Katyn, Warsaw, Hungary, Praga?
Surely a 'nice' Russian tricolor instead?

The von Lorenz cross has as much to do with German Nazism as the swastika used on Carlsberg beer before the war or the swastik of Hinduism.

Lets not tie ourselves in knots over symbols of the past, particularly when we are confused about their meaning and purpose. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Glad somebody said this, even if not in the right place. Good thing people still remember things like this, especially the Katyn Massacre which the Soviets denied even up through the 1980's. Too often is the Soviet Union portrayed as the hero who saved Eastern Europe from Hitler. Soviet extermination is comparable to Hitler's extermination, if it doesn't exceed it.

The above is also reason enough why the Red Star did not get censored out. Soviet atrocities during WWII weren't publicized (during WWII) like German atrocities were, because it was good policy not to anger Stalin, who was considered an ally. History carries onto today where people choose faux-sympathy towards war crimes in a subjective manner. This mindset carries onto today where anything resembling a Swastika is shunned. I guess Ubi had to do it, reluctantly or not, in order to appease the ignorant, if you will. If people are not offended by a Swastika appearing in a historical, and not Nazi-glorifying manner, then they can choose to use these manager programs. If people are not ready for this, then they can choose not to view Finnish, or even German markings correctly.

(Disclaimer: I'm not trying to tick people off or start anything which will incite a riot and a massacre of any sort. If the lack of sugar coating makes this too difficult to digest, I invite a moderator to delete this post, but I ask that he/she refrains from banning me, as such a thing would be simply unnecessary. I understand that this should not be discussed here, however, and I hope you, the moderator, will understand that if someone already started the subject, I find it very difficult not to express my viewpoint in a nonviolent and civil manner.)