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gothkrieger
01-25-2011, 11:00 AM
Been practicing the B&Z manoeuvre from a superior altitude, as I fly with cockpit on I find my self inverting quite often to see where I am in relation to the target so I can time my dive for the attack. This also results in my losing sight of the target when I revert to level flight. Just donít remember seeing this manoeuvre in war time film to much. Were they able to lean closer to **** pit canopy for a downward look better than we are able to?

gothkrieger
01-25-2011, 11:00 AM
Been practicing the B&Z manoeuvre from a superior altitude, as I fly with cockpit on I find my self inverting quite often to see where I am in relation to the target so I can time my dive for the attack. This also results in my losing sight of the target when I revert to level flight. Just donít remember seeing this manoeuvre in war time film to much. Were they able to lean closer to **** pit canopy for a downward look better than we are able to?

Erkki_M
01-25-2011, 11:08 AM
Not really. Pilots were tighly seated. Stereoscopic(2 eyes) view in real life helps, though, seeing past bars...

Practice makes you master, and a head tracking device helps on the way there.

Ba5tard5word
01-25-2011, 11:15 AM
If I'm really high up and I have a general idea of where my target is, I'll kick the rudder to the side a bit and kind of hang the nose up and to the side so I can look below and keep an eye on it. Then when you dive in, I'd say with enough practice you can guess where even a moving target will be so you can dive in on it--once you're diving deep enough you can usually see the target and correct some. If you're bombing a static target it's easier to guess where to drop a bomb without seeing the target. Against a moving plane you need to see it at some point to correct a bit and you definitely need to see it when firing or setting up for an eventual deflection shot.

Sillius_Sodus
01-25-2011, 12:04 PM
Sometimes I'll dive slightly to one side of the target to keep it in view then turn in for the kill when I'm sure I won't lose sight of it.

ImMoreBetter
01-25-2011, 12:07 PM
I just fly upside down the whole time. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/halo.gif

M_Gunz
01-25-2011, 03:43 PM
You can dive down behind and a bit below the target then hit him on the way back up in a shallow climb. He will be easier to see against the sky and you will be in his blind spot. If he is AI you have about 1 or 2 seconds to hammer him once inside about 250m. That's not enough time to fidget for perfect aim, you either have the shot or you don't. If you do then it's plenty of time to kill or cripple the artificial idiot before he gets the CPU cycles to jink.

DKoor
01-25-2011, 04:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ImMoreBetter:
I just fly upside down the whole time. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/halo.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Bet you're the one doing bat turns http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif.

thefruitbat
01-25-2011, 04:39 PM
thats me http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

M2morris
01-25-2011, 09:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gothkrieger:
Been practicing the B&Z manoeuvre from a superior altitude, as I fly with cockpit on I find my self inverting quite often to see where I am in relation to the target so I can time my dive for the attack. This also results in my losing sight of the target when I revert to level flight. Just donít remember seeing this manoeuvre in war time film to much. Were they able to lean closer to **** pit canopy for a downward look better than we are able to? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I don't know about WW2 but I have seen F16s doing that in real life firing at ground targets. The pilot would flip upside down and appear to acquire the target that way, then he would roll upright come in and cut loose with a burst from that gattler gun Brrrrrrraaaap, and then pull out. The gun sounds much like an A10. But in IL2 I have a hard time BnZing because I can't see cr@p because I have a boat-anchor computer with lousy graphics.

K_Freddie
01-25-2011, 10:37 PM
Don't forget to throttle back (~500m) as you approach your target.. and only throttle up once you're done shootin... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

M_Gunz
01-26-2011, 01:58 AM
Huh? If you're trimmed for speed and slow yer six down before shooting then you'll be needing to retrim constantly just to keep the nose from bobbing like crazy. You will also be putting yourself closer to co-speed with your target which means blowing your energy advantage, your ability to pull more G's and/or zoom longer and faster (your smash). What a waste just to be able to hang behind a target!

Well I guess that not everyone is an energy fighter.

Erkki_M
01-26-2011, 02:34 AM
Freddie means the "sound radar".

Works with some integrated, especially older, sound cards. They'll hear you come in.

M_Gunz
01-26-2011, 05:13 AM
Then drop your revs too!

K_Freddie
01-26-2011, 07:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Freddie means the "sound radar".
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
There you go... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Well I guess that not everyone is an energy fighter. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
An adaptation to a technical flaw... You will need all your energy if you come 'trumpeting' in on a bandwagon
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

M_Gunz
01-26-2011, 07:58 AM
If you coarsen the prop at least as much as you cut the throttle then you won't lose nearly as much speed as if you just cut throttle.

But if you shoot deflection from long range in your high speed BnZ, you'll make your hits before your target is ready, same as the AI. It's all over but the exit in two seconds that way, ready to rinse, wash and repeat as necessary.

Besides which, when you play teams there's someone warning the target over voice comm anyway.

gothkrieger
01-26-2011, 09:14 AM
When you guys are playing teams, can you identify friendly flights easily?

K_Freddie
01-26-2011, 12:05 PM
When the DF starts.. everybody's 'fair game'.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Usually friends don't shoot friends, but you can never be sure. The best is to keep fingers off the trigger until you see the whites of their eyes... just to make sure http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Learn to recognise aircraft shapes, tactics, tracer colour. Remember in which direction your frontline is. Keep a tally of friendlies in the area.

gothkrieger
01-26-2011, 12:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by K_Freddie:
When the DF starts.. everybody's 'fair game'.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So do you mean to say there are no blue vs red missions?

thefruitbat
01-26-2011, 12:23 PM
I fly co-op's 90% of the time, and MDS the other 10.

Its always red v blue missions.

is on public dogfight servers to.

never seen a free for all mission.

you can learn who's friendly or not by tracer colour from a distance, and then from the LOD when your a bit closer, and then obviously markings even closer.

if your not sure, don't shoot.

Ba5tard5word
01-26-2011, 12:40 PM
Depends on the server, many of them have those ID tags (I guess that is what LOD is?) on them that are blue or red, and so you can tell what they are from quite a distance. Some servers have ID tags that require you to get a lot closer to see them and they might be grayed out without color but I think they at least tell you what plane type it is, so if it's segregated by nations you can tell if you know which planes went with which side. And some servers don't have any ID tags at all, which I find frustrating. Supposedly looking at stuff on a computer monitor gives you much less ability to see objects compared with if you were actually in a plane--you can squint and focus your eyes but you can't really do that with a 2D representation of 3D.

gothkrieger
01-26-2011, 01:27 PM
Yeah, I am still learning and practicing with the small red text over the enemy aircraft, the one that tells distance and all that. Would be hard to spot the plane at all sometimes and also to follow when they are close to ground against a backgound of trees. Will probably turn that off eventually but for now I am trying to learn so many things that I don't want to have to deal with that as well yet.

M_Gunz
01-26-2011, 01:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gothkrieger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by K_Freddie:
When the DF starts.. everybody's 'fair game'.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So do you mean to say there are no blue vs red missions? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Play co-ops. Those are online missions with teams that allow AI planes to fill in for missing people.

M_Gunz
01-26-2011, 01:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gothkrieger:
Yeah, I am still learning and practicing with the small red text over the enemy aircraft, the one that tells distance and all that. Would be hard to spot the plane at all sometimes and also to follow when they are close to ground against a backgound of trees. Will probably turn that off eventually but for now I am trying to learn so many things that I don't want to have to deal with that as well yet. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you know how to make a backup copy of your conf.ini file? Do you know how to edit your conf.ini file?

thefruitbat
01-26-2011, 04:10 PM
LOD stands for level of detail.

explained here (although for FS, principle is the same).

http://www.ai-aardvark.com/mod...LOD_101/aia_LOD.html (http://www.ai-aardvark.com/modeling/LOD_101/aia_LOD.html)

when the plane stops being a dot and becomes something more its a LOD.

each plane has different LOD's and after you've been playing a while you can pick them out.

obviously, if you have full icons on, this is moot.

i play/host regularly with icons set to just plane type at 1 km (no colour/distance or anything else), and friendly callsign at 400m (for comms, forming up etc), and can normally always tell what the plane is before the icon shows up, from its LOD (read outline)

gothkrieger
01-26-2011, 05:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gothkrieger:
Yeah, I am still learning and practicing with the small red text over the enemy aircraft, the one that tells distance and all that. Would be hard to spot the plane at all sometimes and also to follow when they are close to ground against a backgound of trees. Will probably turn that off eventually but for now I am trying to learn so many things that I don't want to have to deal with that as well yet. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you know how to make a backup copy of your conf.ini file? Do you know how to edit your conf.ini file? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes I do on both counts, you have a suggestion on making changes to it?

M_Gunz
01-26-2011, 06:45 PM
For offline gunnery practice and track playback, edit conf.ini to say Arcade=1. Set it back to 0 otherwise.

It should be in the [game] section. I use Notepad to avoid chance of format-funnies getting in.

[game]
Arcade=0

During play, white dots will mark your hits. The feedback is valuable. During track playback hits make arrows showing the direction of the hit but be aware that while the arrow goes clear through the plane the shot usually doesn't. Also a hit that makes shrapnel has little arrows spreading out so you can tell what kind of shell hit. Incendiaries don't shrapnel but do have the orange burst. Track playback lets you see how close you missed and gives you pause/time/viewpoint control to know more than you can just during gameplay.

gothkrieger
01-26-2011, 09:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
For offline gunnery practice and track playback, edit conf.ini to say Arcade=1. Set it back to 0 otherwise.

It should be in the [game] section. I use Notepad to avoid chance of format-funnies getting in.

[game]
Arcade=0

During play, white dots will mark your hits. The feedback is valuable. During track playback hits make arrows showing the direction of the hit but be aware that while the arrow goes clear through the plane the shot usually doesn't. Also a hit that makes shrapnel has little arrows spreading out so you can tell what kind of shell hit. Incendiaries don't shrapnel but do have the orange burst. Track playback lets you see how close you missed and gives you pause/time/viewpoint control to know more than you can just during gameplay. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Great, I will certainly give that a try.

Erkki_M
01-26-2011, 11:01 PM
This is of course just me, but I prefer full switch. It doesnt take more than a week to learn to navigate with just the map and compass, even in bad weather, if learning the search pattern, IDing others and keeping situational awareness up does.

After you've learnt the very basics in single player you'll most likely want to try MP. See http://hyperfighter.sk You will find out that around 3/4 of servers, and coop games, in the Hyperlobby will use relatively easy settings so they shouldnt be too difficult to enjoy even with relatively little experience. After some time, you might want to move on. But most never do. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

M_Gunz
01-27-2011, 01:24 AM
I suggest Arcade=1 for gunnery practice as needed. Someone going from one gun system to another may have such need until they know just where their shots are going including a feel for interval time. If deflection shooting is a matter of luck then there is need to practice gunnery!
This the same way as finding oneself in spins more than once in a great while, practice flying that particular plane is needed.

Changing planes takes familiarization to do better than mediocre well and on that subject, jumping from plane to plane unless they are close to the same will result in never reaching full potential in any of them. Reflexes don't know names!

One other thing either case may indicate is a need to work out a better fitting (to self and joystick) stick sensitivity profile.

K_Freddie
01-27-2011, 02:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gothkrieger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by K_Freddie:
When the DF starts.. everybody's 'fair game'.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So do you mean to say there are no blue vs red missions? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
No, just lots of mistakes are made. One has to be patient. The speed of the game intentsifies and there are times that you just shoot at a blur, only to find it's a friendly - whoops.

I've done in a few friendlies and have been done mistakenly a few times myself. A quick apology usually suffices, but some are very cranky http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Kurfurst__
01-28-2011, 08:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gothkrieger:
Just donít remember seeing this manoeuvre in war time film to much. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course. First of all its not pleasan if all the blood goes into your head, and secondly, the engines, fuel, lubrication systems weren't suitable for prolonged inverted flight either.

M_Gunz
01-28-2011, 10:07 AM
P-38 had a 10 second limit before the sump-oil system dried up and the bearing journals started serious wear due to lack of lubrication. Perhaps some others had better designs but I can't name them off the top of my head. Surely some did. I know about the P-38 from Lockheed training film at Zeno's Warbirds I saw in 1999.

Add: but as in so much WWII fighters, the pilot is more often the limit than the plane.

gothkrieger
01-28-2011, 10:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by K_Freddie:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gothkrieger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by K_Freddie:
When the DF starts.. everybody's 'fair game'.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So do you mean to say there are no blue vs red missions? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
No, just lots of mistakes are made. One has to be patient. The speed of the game intentsifies and there are times that you just shoot at a blur, only to find it's a friendly - whoops.

I've done in a few friendlies and have been done mistakenly a few times myself. A quick apology usually suffices, but some are very cranky http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I guess the concept of identifying your target comes into play in any circumstance where you have to pull a trigger. Reminds me of being out hunting one morning, real early, good thing I made sure of target otherwise it would have been beef not deer meat for supper.

gothkrieger
01-28-2011, 10:58 AM
Interesting, with all the manoeuvres a plane had to do you would think that they would have come up with more than a simple oil pan sump type of oil feed. Something more along the line of pressurized oil feed from a pick up that would not end up sucking just air and not oil during specific manoeuvres.

M_Gunz
01-28-2011, 11:44 AM
P-38 was not the most advanced plane of the war although a very good early war design. How much sustained inverted flight was or is necessary anyway?

gothkrieger
01-28-2011, 01:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
P-38 was not the most advanced plane of the war although a very good early war design. How much sustained inverted flight was or is necessary anyway? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well at least it did not have a long engine out in front of the pilot and probably made looking down easier anyways.

M_Gunz
01-28-2011, 06:23 PM
And those engines and booms left and right don't cut the view?

It was a great plane for what it was made for and much of what it wasn't, but it wasn't everything. AFAIK, none were. In USAAF planes alone I'd put the series as #3 behind the Mustang and Thunderbolt.

BillSwagger
02-01-2011, 08:35 PM
Remember that a split S into a diving attack was also a very aggresive way to attack.

In game, i just circle around and spiral down rather than point my nose straight down on the target. I find it useful roll a wing over to look below me, but if the target is that far underneath me i just asume pass over them or carve a turn so they are more in front of me.
Id rather retain as much advantage as possible and usually the steeper dive eats speed on pull out.
I find myself in situations where after the dive i'm confronted or tailed for several miles which probably has a lot to do with my choice of planes.
The steeper dive from thousands of meters above never pays-off anyway.
There are just too many variables that come into play where a steep maneuver actually could leave me more vulnerable even after landing shots on the target.
I haven't had the chance to try 4.10 yet, but i hope that maybe some of the newer characteristics have added more depth and stratedgy to that part of the fight.


Bill

M_Gunz
02-02-2011, 04:22 PM
You probably don't want to split-s onto somebody unless you're trying to chase them down from 25,000 ft or so. Somebody posted a number of pilot accounts where P-47 drivers went very quickly from level flight to high speed dive just to catch a diving enemy.

Every maneuver to what it's suited for. I don't like to BnZ from over 1000 meters height advantage, closing much over 100 m/s doesn't give enough time on trigger after lining up the shot.