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shc89
09-10-2008, 06:30 PM
How important are prop pitch and mixture in dogfighting, can manual prop and mixture signifcantly improve aircraft performance ?

Also, when are combat flaps used? I mostly use them when making hard turns to keep my sights on the enemy, and as soon as I am going straight and want to pick up speed I turn to raised flaps. Is it correct ?

All the time I think I'm missing something crucial for dogfighting. Thats probably because I played for a few days with a friend 1vs1 and I turned much better than him, and shot him easily almost every time, and then the next day an unbelievable improvement. He was turning better than me and it was almost impossible to out turn him. I was wondering how can he improve his performance so much in less than a day, so I got to conclusion that he discovered something important that I dont know of http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

shc89
09-10-2008, 06:30 PM
How important are prop pitch and mixture in dogfighting, can manual prop and mixture signifcantly improve aircraft performance ?

Also, when are combat flaps used? I mostly use them when making hard turns to keep my sights on the enemy, and as soon as I am going straight and want to pick up speed I turn to raised flaps. Is it correct ?

All the time I think I'm missing something crucial for dogfighting. Thats probably because I played for a few days with a friend 1vs1 and I turned much better than him, and shot him easily almost every time, and then the next day an unbelievable improvement. He was turning better than me and it was almost impossible to out turn him. I was wondering how can he improve his performance so much in less than a day, so I got to conclusion that he discovered something important that I dont know of http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

jayhall0315
09-10-2008, 07:11 PM
As someone who specializes in fighting people that I would consider to be of a Master class level, the differences of prop pitch and mixture are fairly minimal. A richer mixture will give you a 2-4% improvement to both speed and climbing ability at low altitudes, and once again, this would only come into play when facing someone where a 2-4% difference could be critical (like a Master level flier). I used to have the same questions as you, so I conducted some in game tests and wrote this:

http://files.filefront.com/IL2+Aircraft+Performancepdf/...25033;/fileinfo.html (http://files.filefront.com/IL2+Aircraft+Performancepdf/;10725033;/fileinfo.html)

Your description of combat flaps is correct except that you will be bleeding precious kinetic energy. Provided you fly within the correct power band of throttle, prop pitch and engine rpm, you should rarely need to touch the combat flaps.

Two things can account for your friend's newfound abilities; one is that he has been practicing while you have been sleeping. The other, is that he has added a private mod to his game. Some of these mods are legitimate and some are not (ie, they are flat out cheats). You should know that the cheat mods are a highly contentious issue amongst IL2 veterans, so tread with care.

Good luck,
Jay

steiner562
09-10-2008, 07:22 PM
Its also possible he's knows how to use the trim tabs better than you when it comes to turning of course it all depends on the plane ,enough with private mod accusatons also Jay unless you have genuine evidence(tracks) of that happening in servers/coops(stock 4.08 game I mean).

jayhall0315
09-10-2008, 08:28 PM
No accusations (although I think I can get some Ntrks to you in the coming weeks from some of the crazies I often face when I get my Franken Potato back).

Jay

Skycat_2
09-10-2008, 09:18 PM
Did you guys return to the same plane types you were fighting each other in before?

M_Gunz
09-11-2008, 03:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by shc89:
How important are prop pitch and mixture in dogfighting, can manual prop and mixture signifcantly improve aircraft performance ?

Also, when are combat flaps used? I mostly use them when making hard turns to keep my sights on the enemy, and as soon as I am going straight and want to pick up speed I turn to raised flaps. Is it correct ?

All the time I think I'm missing something crucial for dogfighting. Thats probably because I played for a few days with a friend 1vs1 and I turned much better than him, and shot him easily almost every time, and then the next day an unbelievable improvement. He was turning better than me and it was almost impossible to out turn him. I was wondering how can he improve his performance so much in less than a day, so I got to conclusion that he discovered something important that I dont know of http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course you made online tracks to study and see wth is going on, right?

shc89
09-11-2008, 05:45 AM
I'm aware that flaps bleed energy so I use them rarely. But when I use them I sometimes use the take off flaps instead of combat since they will increase the turn rate and lower the turn radius even more,AFAIK, but I'm pretty careful when using them.

About the newfound abilites, I dont like to point the finger at somebody with no evidence, but it did make me doubt. So basically, Il-2 is opened for modding in that way that one person can mod his game and play with other that has it stock, and the game has no way of checking the mods?

Yeah, we used the same planes as before.I havent saved the .trk file, but I'll do it next time.

And last what are trim tabs? I mostly trim my elevators before traversing so I can shoot more precisely...

Mercwolf2
09-11-2008, 06:11 AM
Prop pitch can be used for fuel economy for longer flights and can sometimes give you extra speed if used correctly. In a dive by reducing prop pitch the propellor is pushing more air and you can see the speed increase by about 20 kph. If you leave the pitch the same when you climb you will see that the plane will bleed off speed quicker. Fuel mixture is used at altitudes. Try flying a HE-111 at 4000+m with 100% fuel mixture and see what happens. The plane is choking out and you will not travel as fast due to less dense air. Also you will see contrails which give away your position. In a HE-111 If you adjust fuel mix to 70%, prop pitch to 80% and superchargers to stage 2 you will not contrail.
Combat flaps can be used to adjust climb rate and also assist in turning your aircraft. There is a trade off though as drag reduces speed so use it wisely. I have my flaps on a slider so I can adjust them while flying and can drop them quicky to get a better turn radius.

Hope this answers your questions and I am not on the "Masters List", though I am at student level 10 at Joint-ops.

Bearcat99
09-11-2008, 06:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jayhall0315:
No accusations (although I think I can get some Ntrks to you in the coming weeks from some of the crazies I often face when I get my Franken Potato back).

Jay </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Didn't we talk about this?

To answer sch.. pitch can help to a degree in dives or climbs.. or in extensions if you have enough distance. Mixture too can help or more importantly hurt if used incorrectly.. if it is too rich you wiont have enough power.. power is part of speed and speed = life in the air.

Flaps can be used for turns but you have to pop them briefly.. Yor friend may be using trim.. trim helps too with turning.. and it causes less drag than flaps, even if it o=is a little slower. If he has trim on a slider instead of a key press even more so, though not as pronounced as it used to be.

M_Gunz
09-11-2008, 07:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by shc89:
I'm aware that flaps bleed energy so I use them rarely. But when I use them I sometimes use the take off flaps instead of combat since they will increase the turn rate and lower the turn radius even more,AFAIK, but I'm pretty careful when using them. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What you should be doing is going into the vertical. Climb and dive to control your speed and
turn where you turn best, usually losing alt during the turn to lower your G-loading. Work a
nice yoyo and you won't need the flaps, might even have the speed to do real maneuvering and
keep your speed instead of blowing it.

Stingray333
09-11-2008, 07:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bearcat99:
Flaps can be used for turns but you have to pop them briefly.. Yor friend may be using trim.. trim helps too with turning.. and it causes less drag than flaps, even if it o=is a little slower. If he has trim on a slider instead of a key press even more so, though not as pronounced as it used to be. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Does using trim result in less drag? The discussion we had in this thread http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/970...411095486#1411095486 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/9701069386?r=1411095486#1411095486)

indicated that it was exactly the same as using ailerons, I would like to know more,

Thanks!

Stingray

shc89
09-11-2008, 11:27 AM
So basically whenever I turn I should adjust the trim to turn faster. The only thing that sounds bad is that it seems to me that its harder to aim in a turn or especially if target is going straight when you apply a lot of trim, so I'll probably need to adjust the trim all the time. So many little things to do in the same time, hope I'll get used to it. Wonder how hard it was for the real pilots who didnt have all the things so close to their fingers...

jayhall0315
09-11-2008, 11:42 AM
Shc - Go online to someplace like Newegg.com and look up the Saitek x-52 or x-52 Pro Hotas systems. You will see from Newegg's pictures that the throttle half of the HOTAS clearly has little round dials (the rotaries) that can quickly rolled in one direction or another. The guys who fly well often have their trim controlled by these rotaries and they can adjust for full trim inputs and then rotate the dial back to normal very quickly in combat. This is one of the little secrets to 'out-turning' the other guy.

Also, and even more importantly as another poster said, start to become familiar with some of the correct 3D combat moves like the high and low yo-yo and you will find that you wont need to out-turn the guy. You will be able to maneuver with your excess energy into a high yo-yo and then come down on him without the need to out-turn him.


Look here for pictures of the dials on the throttle:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...04&Tpk=saitek%20x-52 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16826102004&Tpk=saitek%20x-52)

Cheers,
Jay

M_Gunz
09-11-2008, 01:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by shc89:
So basically whenever I turn I should adjust the trim to turn faster. The only thing that sounds bad is that it seems to me that its harder to aim in a turn or especially if target is going straight when you apply a lot of trim, so I'll probably need to adjust the trim all the time. So many little things to do in the same time, hope I'll get used to it. Wonder how hard it was for the real pilots who didnt have all the things so close to their fingers... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Google 'Bud Anderson trim wheel', read the first chapter of his autobiography online.
He had 3 trim wheels in easy reach and used them all the time even during dogfights.

You want to trim for the speed you are/will be at. The closer to trim you are, the closer your
joystick can work to center which if your stick sliders are lower near center than the edge
is where you get most sensitivity and best feedback per stick motion (LESS) giving you your
best precision. THAT is why it's better to stay in trim, take note JayHall before you publish
another Newbie Guide for Newbies.

If you are going to be changing speed rapidly then leave trim about midrange for it or neutralize
the trim.

If you can learn to run with the pitch (elevator) sliders starting on the left at something
other than zero... I've run em all 100's before and could shoot to hit, and all 90's and 90
to 100 but lately I run 44 to 100 on pitch.
Why oh why? Whatever sliders you have at every point, that's the % response you get back for
stick pull. If you only get back 10% for so many degrees inner pull but the next same amount
of pull gets you 40% back and the next same amount of movements gets you 100% then it should
be easy to figure out the more you pull the stick, the less fine your control is getting.
The proportions get larger, the change per degree of stick pull is as steep as the sliders.

So I have less fine control but I also have less -change-. At all 90's or 100's proportion
becomes linear though at no point is there easy fine control, it becomes move the stick by
hairs but I tell ya that trim ceases to be such an issue when you can judge stick control
out beyond mid-pull and not yank the plane past stall before knowing it.

You got to play with these things to get it right for yourself. There is no substitute.
IL2 is a simulation with unreal controls for more real flight models, how you set up and use
the controls makes a huge impact on how you fly in game that somehow gets mistaken for FM
over and over and over, etc, when that is not the case. Your hardware, PC and OS setup all
make your case unique to some degree, you have to tune to get the most out of it.

shc89
09-12-2008, 07:27 AM
I've binded my rotaries to work as trims. Altough I can't see the effect when I change my aileron trim. One of my mistakes is that I havent mastered some of the essential maneuvres. The way I fight now its pretty easy to predict my next move. I tried changing elevator trim while fighting and it does help me, the only thing left is getting accustomed to it.

M_Gunz
09-12-2008, 09:27 AM
If the plane you're flying doesn't have aileron trim then it won't work.
Besides, most new players and more than a few long-timers use aileron when they should rudder.

You know about The Ball and Slip?

X32Wright
09-12-2008, 01:09 PM
Wrong jay hall. Prop pitch and mixture are two different things. The difference between prop pitch and mixture are BIG!

The advantage of prop pitch is to decelerate and accelerate quicker than what can be achieved with the throttle control. On some planes the prop pitch is the preferable way to adjust ur speed than throttle sepcially in the heat of combat. So you better learn to balance ur throttle,proppitch and mixture setting based on what alt you are in.

The mixture is for control the air to gas mixture inside the combustion chamber due to changes in ur altitude. I don't know any pilots actually maximizing their advanatge using mixture although it helps when u are at specific altitude to make your mixture leaner or higher depending on ur altitude.

As gunz said, trimming is your friend specially when u each a new energy state after a menuever and want to maximize it.

jayhall0315
09-12-2008, 02:43 PM
Uhh,...guys...I think you misconstrued my answer (or read too much into it). All that I was trying to convey, is that at low level in several types of airframes, changing the mix from 100 to 120% can give you a 2-4% advantage in speed and power. Nothing more or less. I did not say anything about prop pitch, which as you rightly indicate is completely different.

Sorry if there was any confusion,
Jay

M_Gunz
09-12-2008, 03:58 PM
One more time:

The big deal about IL2 trim is making up for limited joystick hardware.
You -can- alleviate some of that by changing your sensitivity sliders and not have to ride
the trim like some kind of near-primary control.

The problem is simple. If my sliders are 0 to 100 in a dish shape then the short pull I get
used to near center gives me back a small change. Farther from center the change for the same
short pull be many times more, up to 100x more. It's very hard to teach fingers this difference.

It's much easier to learn fine control over the full range of stick pull, hence deal with those
sliders and yourself at the same time and try to find something you can handle better.

My pitch sliders are currently at 46-52-58-64-70-76-82-88-94-100, it's a compromise pattern.
I don't control the plane rigidly anyway, I don't death-grip the stick and I don't rest the
weight of my arm on the stick unless I want to fly like dog-$@!+.

shc89
09-15-2008, 06:16 AM
Yeah I understand what you mean. And what is the ball and slip ?

M_Gunz
09-15-2008, 07:04 AM
The Ball on most of these planes is the black ball in the upward curving, smiley, tube there
on your instrument panel. On Spitfires it's a needle on a dual needle gauge way down on the
lower right of the front panel while on most others it's easy to find and use in normal view.
To be fair, IRL you get a feel from your own movement but in IL2 that indicator is gold.

*Most* of the time that Ball tells you if your plane is pointing where it's going. Most of
the time you want that. Sometimes you don't and sometimes The Ball will not move as fast as
the plane might change, or it will get stuck at one end of the track for a while and it's not
a whole lot of good in negative G's. At very low speeds in level flight, don't go by The Ball
but instead keep your wings level using rudder only and think about increasing power or putting
the nose down -- you can get trapped going slower and slower at full power just by pulling the
nose up trying to go up, you can stall and spin that way.

So for *most* of the time if The Ball moves off center, push rudder to the same side The Ball
is off center ("step on the ball") a bit less than it is off center and ride it back to center
(as opposed to cranking the rudder and watching the ball skid farther off center the other way)
to get your flight coordinated.

*Most* of the time; if you are flying straight and The Ball is off center then you are in Slip.
In turns there's Slip and Skid. Skid is when the ball is toward the outside of the turn and
slip when the ball toward the inside of the turn. The nose is opposite, if you use too much
rudder in a turn then you will skid through the turn. Either way you get more drag which you
may want (lower speed, smaller turn radius) but *most* of the time you do not want.

Also when the plane is not pointing where it is going it will not shoot where the sight points
either, *to some degree*. This is probably the biggest cause of gunnery complaints from players
who put the sight on the target and don't blow it to pieces as expected. Those complaints take
the form of "my bullets don't have enough power" to "the red/blue DM's are biased".

M_Gunz
09-15-2008, 07:21 AM
I almost forgot to say; if you are in slip when you stall -- that is how you spin.
You can hold stall and not spin since 4.0 though it's tricky and costs altitude.

Remember that in a turn or other +G condition that stall comes at higher speed, the 1 G stall
times the square root of the G's being pulled. A 4 G turn will stall at 2x normal stall speed,
or less esp if you're not flying clean. That's called an Accelerated Stall and they go into
Spin with extra energy of G's and speed so stay coordinated!

shc89
09-15-2008, 06:45 PM
I always wondered what's its function. I almost always use the rudder when turning, both at the start of the turn and when I want to change my direction I always use both the ailerons and rudder, so I guess skidding is at the minimum and I also change the direction faster that way. The only problem is that I dont have the rudder pedals and my twist stick doesnt twists so easily so its not really easy to control.

M_Gunz
09-15-2008, 07:56 PM
Skid is from oversteer. Remember, it slows you down more and throws your aim off just like
slip.

Just use the ball to gauge how much rudder to use. Rudder some, watch the ball move and rudder
more as needed. You might want to adjust your yaw (rudder) stick sliders to suit yourself.

It don't have to be perfect, if that's a worry to you. Close is good unless you shoot long
range. The more centered it is, the cleaner you will fly and the faster you can be.

Lubcke
09-15-2008, 08:27 PM
I dont know the reason why are you loading guy with so much bull****, but my advice to you use the flaps thats good and the other most important thing is get out there and kill some... the more you kill, the better you get...

M_Gunz
09-15-2008, 08:29 PM
Okay Super Pilot, you know best.

M_Gunz
09-15-2008, 08:57 PM
Shc, here is part of the opening section of John Denker's SEE HOW IT FLIES

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">How to Use this Book

I hope you will find these topics interesting... but this book is not just for entertainment: I find that the information presented here helps people fly the airplane better.

There is a saying that "practice makes perfect" but that's wrong. It's wrong in at least two ways.

For starters, the truth is that practice makes permanent. If you're practicing the wrong things, practice is worse than nothing. The key is to practice the right things. Learn the right procedures, then go practice them. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here is the online book. (How to Use this Book)

And these are the author's aviation credentials:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">John Denker is certified as a Commercial Pilot, Flight Instructor, and Ground Instructor. He is an FAA Aviation Safety Counselor. He is a past member of the board of trustees of the Monmouth Area Flying Club, and a past member of the National Research Council Committee on Commercial Aviation Security. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Anybody wants to get panties about Denker not being a WWII fighter pilot should note the amount
of training that USAAF pilots went through before ever getting to fighter school. They had to
know enough to get a pilot's license if they didn't already have one and that requires knowing
how to fly right. That was just the start for them with over a year more in training.

Afterhours
09-22-2008, 02:40 PM
Hello shc,

When someone hosts a server for this sim they can invoke features like "checktimes" that will prevent people from joining with modified game files.

I have been flying this sim online since it was introduced, and I have seen a few strange things, but nothing that I could call out and out cheating. Some have tried to induce lag on the server with various methods to throw off aim, and a few other things like that, but nothing really serious.

I am impressed with the integrity of the sim and it's servers when they are run tightly.

Taking a track of what you do online is a great idea, as you have already been told. You can run the tracks and switch to your opponents aircraft view and see what they do with their controls and flaps, and you can hear their engine rpms as they modulate the throttle and their prop pitch also.

What was the aircraft you and your friend were using??? I could give you some expert's insight into the ultimate potential of the aircraft when they are flown by real aces.

Pilot experience in specific aircraft can make all the difference in the world in this sim. The first time you were flying against your friend he simply may not have been using flaps or some other simple thing. If you are both new to the sim, then your learning curves will be steep for a while and a simple thing may indeed be all it takes to turn the tables from one day to the next.

After flying this sim online for thousands of hours over the last several years on hard settings in and against every type of aircraft, you can begin to know what they are all capable of when they are flown by someone who REALLY knows what they are doing in them

You can take a bf109 up against a Yak online one day and you will be able to fly circles around it, the next mission you will meet the same type with a different pilot in it that will run circles around you!

Until you reach that point where you are that experienced, then it will help to accept the fact that you are not going to be able to predict what is going to happen when you engage an opponent.

And when you are that experienced in your favorite aircraft, then when you engage you will always assume you are in for a real fight that will take everything you have. Some days you will get a break and the pilot will not be so good you are up against, and some days he will hand you your a$$ on a platter, that is life...

1 vs 1 dogfighting, when done in a dueling or turning style is just one small skill and part of becoming an IL2 ACE. If you fly really good online wars, or good coops and dogfight servers with objectives, then the only time you will need those specific skills is when you have screwed up and got yourself into a situation you should not be in.

I am merely "good" at 1vs1 dueling and dogfighting, but that is not why I am an ACE, I am an ACE because I can do everything well, not just that one thing.

Discover the set of skills that will let you strike your opponents and the mission objectives and return home without ever getting into a dogfight and you will have made a lot of progress towards being a real IL2 ACE......http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

jayhall0315
09-22-2008, 04:57 PM
Although Afterhours I love one on one dogfighting and the thrill of dueling, I must say your advice is better. I made a Master's list of those I have run across in IL2 who do consistently well in one on one fights but the real mark of a Master aviator (or ace) is the person who does not even allow his opponents to dogfight him in the first place.

All of what you just wrote is right on the mark

Jay