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IIJG69-Niklaus
07-04-2005, 07:02 PM
Hello, i made some tests with Fw190; Bf110G2; Ju87G1; and Hs129 vs T34, Su85, KV1 and Shermans.

With Bf110 and Bk37, very very very difficult to open a T34 or Sherman, have to shot the engine of the tank but it's uncertain, but I believe that the ammo are not AT but HE to attack bombers.
Not necessary to say that it is totally impossible to open a KV1 but a Su85 can be with luck.

The AI rarely reach to destroy a T34 with a Hs129 and Bk37, in this case it's not logic, the ammo should be AC and should easily open a T34 even a Kv1. Mk101 is totally ineffective...
I was also shocked to see the fragility of this plane which was so armoured! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Then, the Ju87G1, T34 can resists to many hits and destroy a T34 with G1 is also very hazardous... and also totally impossible to open a Kv1.

With this plane, it's not logic too, Rudel reached to destroy heavy tanks as IS2 with his G1 and we can't destroy the basics T34 or worst, the shermans lol!?!?

Finally, with bombs...
Sc50,Sc70 and 250 need directs hits to destroy tanks as T34 or Shermans and Sc500 need to explode nearer than 1m of the tanks lol, and it's also hazardous in this case http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif
Ohhh but Sc1000, 1800 and 2000 permit at least 3 or 4 meters .... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif


sorry for bad english, bye

IIJG69-Niklaus
07-04-2005, 07:02 PM
Hello, i made some tests with Fw190; Bf110G2; Ju87G1; and Hs129 vs T34, Su85, KV1 and Shermans.

With Bf110 and Bk37, very very very difficult to open a T34 or Sherman, have to shot the engine of the tank but it's uncertain, but I believe that the ammo are not AT but HE to attack bombers.
Not necessary to say that it is totally impossible to open a KV1 but a Su85 can be with luck.

The AI rarely reach to destroy a T34 with a Hs129 and Bk37, in this case it's not logic, the ammo should be AC and should easily open a T34 even a Kv1. Mk101 is totally ineffective...
I was also shocked to see the fragility of this plane which was so armoured! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Then, the Ju87G1, T34 can resists to many hits and destroy a T34 with G1 is also very hazardous... and also totally impossible to open a Kv1.

With this plane, it's not logic too, Rudel reached to destroy heavy tanks as IS2 with his G1 and we can't destroy the basics T34 or worst, the shermans lol!?!?

Finally, with bombs...
Sc50,Sc70 and 250 need directs hits to destroy tanks as T34 or Shermans and Sc500 need to explode nearer than 1m of the tanks lol, and it's also hazardous in this case http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif
Ohhh but Sc1000, 1800 and 2000 permit at least 3 or 4 meters .... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif


sorry for bad english, bye

VW-IceFire
07-04-2005, 10:24 PM
Mmmm I have to disagree with some of these statements.

The T-34s do not require many hits to take out with the anti-tank Stuka. I started trying to figure out how to use this plane as I was initially unimpressed.

All T-34s, if hit correctly, will go down in one shot. No problem. Also, they will go down with one shot from the BK cannon on the Bf110. Ask the guys on UK-D about that one.

Basically, angle of the attack on a tank is vital. You must execute an attack from 500m or more in a 60 degree dive (for some aircraft with some AT weapons) and then score a direct hit on top of the tank (usually the turret).

If you follow the proper procedures against tanks, you can achieve 100% lethality with AT weaponry. Russian BRS-132 rockets, HVARs, and certain 23mm and greater weapons will all achieve the same effects.

All bombs from all sides work well, particularly if skip bombed into the side of the tank, provided that they are right beside it.

FritzGryphon
07-04-2005, 10:49 PM
Yor observation of bombs is also incorrect.

Even SC250 will destroy T-34 within 10-20 meters of it. SC500 and larger, certainly more.

Here is image of SC250 strike.

http://members.shaw.ca/evilgryphon4/t34.jpg

hobnail
07-04-2005, 11:19 PM
Oleg has equiped the Bf110 37mm with HE rounds for Bomber interception as is historically correct.

As you have noted, it does not carry AP rounds.

FritzGryphon
07-04-2005, 11:32 PM
Here's a handy reference of the general bomb destruction radii.

Note that this is not constant. Distance was found to vary by 1 tank on occasion.

Targets T-34 early. Distance in meters x10

2xSC50http://members.shaw.ca/evilgryphon4/sc50.jpg
SC250http://members.shaw.ca/evilgryphon4/sc250.jpg
SC500http://members.shaw.ca/evilgryphon4/sc500.jpg
SC1000http://members.shaw.ca/evilgryphon4/sc1000.jpg
SC1800http://members.shaw.ca/evilgryphon4/sc1800.jpg
2xSC2000http://members.shaw.ca/evilgryphon4/sc2000.jpg

BBB_Hyperion
07-05-2005, 05:42 AM
Hmmm i take out tanks daily and all BK37 mm guns can take them out with 1 hit.

I already reported the ai problem a while ago . AI Tank Busters are not able to take out T34 or higher efficently with guns. They shoot in too flat angels. AI HS129 has a simpliefied DM.

What is wrong.
The Armor Penetration values of the BK37 mm are wrong . Even from 2 Meter distance you cant fire through the sidearmor of a t34 . The calculations i did show that at angles up to 30 degrees from t34 45 degrees sidearmor are easily shoot through under 300 m if the bullet doesnt bounce off. Seems the simpliefied DM of the Tanks doesnt allow any other attacks the turret hit or engine block from 30 to 45 degrees.

But we need to deal with this restrictions special in online wars the inabilities of the AI Tank busters favors other side.

BBB_Hyperion
07-05-2005, 06:51 AM
Here some ship and tank busting methods added kv1

http://rapidshare.de/files/2819518/ju87attackmethods.zip.html

S.taibanzai
07-05-2005, 08:55 AM
http://cpsa.de/leroyal/tanks.jpg

Not one tank destroyed )))

with sc-250 kg bomb

cant hit muck closer can i

BBB_Hyperion
07-05-2005, 10:43 AM
You were out of sync maybe you should read the answers to your own thread.

VW-IceFire
07-05-2005, 10:52 AM
Testing online or offline.

Offline I find bombs against tanks much more effective than online.

IIJG69-Niklaus
07-05-2005, 11:17 AM
Yes, i know some notions about armor penetration, i always try and tried to hit the top of the hull of the tanks with 45‚? or more angle.
But I rarely destroy T34/sherman and never bigger tank even at very close ranges.( Rudel attacked the IS2 between 100 and 200meters)


For bomb, I've no screenshot to post,apart this one:
Sc50 on ZSU 37, so very ligh armor:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v215/Niklaus/IL2M_W050531_222508_C05053121110820.jpg

I think it's enough explicit?? lol
I've often the same results as taibanzai...

I often arrive to have so accurate bombing with my bombs and often no destroy the tank targetted.
May be I'have no luck and you FritzGryphon a lot ??

BBB_Hyperion
07-05-2005, 01:58 PM
Maybe the reasons are coops settings are nowhere near as tight as most server settings cause they use default ?

But we can surely test some armor hitting online pm me for coordination.

IIJG69-Niklaus
07-05-2005, 03:30 PM
Ok, I'm often on Hyperlobby at 21.00 clk but french hour :S

Another pic by II/JG69_Warlord

http://img290.imageshack.us/img290/199/scde*****5ab.jpg

BBB_Hyperion
07-05-2005, 05:42 PM
Any special coop missions where that happens on a regular basis so i can host em ?

IIJG69-Niklaus
07-05-2005, 05:47 PM
I have a squad trainning dog( lot of soviet tanks and plane of Kursk battle), but no coops, but easy too to make some http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif .
I often host dog on HL

Friday, I'll host the trainning dog without pass about 21.30 (french hour)

Warlordimi
07-06-2005, 02:17 AM
It is important to say that the problems reported by my teammate Niklaus occured while playing online.

The same problem was noted before 4.0 when the MG151/20 was much more effective offline than online.

I have to check through may tracks, I have somewhere a T34 being hit by 10 bk37 hits on its rear panel and turret and being totally unhurt. While diving at 45‚? with the Stuka G1, every tank should be destroyed at once by a single shot. This is not the case online.

We recently had another problem online, but this can be caused by the lag (we were 32). Ours bombs (2xSC250, 1xSC500) simply didn't explode!!!

This is a more general debate on ground objects.
Why does a tank fire on another tank at 900m whili it start to fire at airplanes at 2000m? Why is the T34/76 far more sturdier than its successor the T34/85?

Even with a single 250kg dropped precisely on the tank's side, if not destroyed, it should put on its top.

http://www.tracks-n-troops.com/archive/destroyed%20T34.jpg

The ONLY way to properly achieve success on tanks is to dive at STEEP angles like on this screenshot. This is a 80‚? dive with a STUKA G1!! As you may think, stability is not that good, so aiming is quite difficult!

http://www.checksix-forums.com/forums/uploads/post-87-1117198155.jpg

But pulling the plane out of its dive is quite hazardous as you may think. At angles under 70‚?. Just forget it. If you manage to destroy you target, it's luck and nothing more.

G1vsT34-85 (http://www.warbird-ecole.com/dunmer-files/PF/Ju-87G1vsT-34-85.zip)

Track G1vsKv1 (http://www.warbird-ecole.com/dunmer-files/PF/Ju-87G1vsKV1.zip)

Track G1vsIS2 (http://www.warbird-ecole.com/dunmer-files/PF/Ju-87GvsIS2.zip)

So, once more, we have two different way of thinking. Do we use the prope and original tactics used by Rudel's tank killers? That means flying low, at SMOOTH angles and getting no result in this sim?

Or do we try to find any improbable tactic to achieve success, but being totally non-historical?

PLEASE: do not answer something like someone you know well on this board: "it's a flying sim, not a tank sim". You cannot name a flight sim "IL2" without giving him decent DM and ground objects.

My opinion? There were not enough pilots interested, like me, in ground attack to take enough time to program a decent code for the ground objects.

Cheers,

II/JG69_Warlord

plumps_
07-06-2005, 04:17 AM
Here (http://rapidshare.de/files/2840793/a_bad_pilot_ki61_airfield_attack.ntrk.html)'s an online track captured in 3.04:

My teammate drops two 250 kg bombs onto a row of Studebaker trucks. He hits one of the trucks, which then stands inside the bomb crater, but unharmed. Another truck a few metres away is the only thing that gets destroyed in the explosion:

http://1rl.de/for/ubi/studebomber.jpg

A few seconds later my own bombs get dropped almost at the same position as my teammate's. This time the explosion (almost) does what you'd expect: Four trucks get destroyed within several dozen metres (but one truck inside that perimeter stays unharmed).

The funny question: If my teammate is out of sync, why do his bombs do any harm at all?

BBB_Hyperion
07-06-2005, 07:02 AM
Maybe a 2D hit area on ground targets only ?

Can you post bomb explosion with arcade=1 to see the arrows ?

plumps_
07-06-2005, 07:05 AM
Arcade mode doesn't work in online tracks.

BBB_Hyperion
07-06-2005, 07:20 AM
Yes noticed .( . Looks odd but its most likely a problem of the 2d triggerzones maybe on tanks as well . Once below a certain alt level below that of the vehicles or tanks bombs dont have any effect cause triggerzone for undertank hits is missing and only smaller components of the vectored explosion hits the tank. But thats only a theory now checking later .)

BBB_Hyperion
07-06-2005, 08:52 AM
http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/9241/js2sc50s9xd.jpg

Tested sc50s on JS2 . Results are close to that what i exspected . Red Marks Full hit Blue Marks no effect. It seems to be the case that part of the explosion is just absorbed by the ground and is not present in further effects. The Tank DM isnt that complex at all but Bomb effects severly differ from point of explosion what is not in all cases that logic.

Willey
07-06-2005, 09:27 AM
What the hell does "out of sync" mean? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/354.gif

BBB_Hyperion
07-06-2005, 09:35 AM
You are out of sync when you dont get "K√¬∂rsche" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Jaws2002
07-06-2005, 02:33 PM
There's nothing wrong with BK-3.7 on the Bf-110.

Gibbage1
07-06-2005, 03:29 PM
The BK37 on the Bf-110 uses HE ammo and is used for bomber busting. NOT good VS tanks. You need a lot of hits in the back panel or from above, but its possible.

The BK37 on the Ju-87 uses AP (Tungstin core) and will bust a tank wide open from almost every angle but head-on. The best angle is from the side.

You must remember that Oleg is a big fan of tanks, and put a lot into the damage modeling of them since IL2 was all about the ground war. The tanks have very accurate armor ratings and you will CONSTANTLY find hitting them from in the front with ANYTHING will be a futile thing.

Since FB changed the way bombs deal damage, you must know how they work to know how they kill. Once a bomb goes off, it cast's out a bloom of arrows. If the arrow strikes a target, it does damage. If it does not, it does nothing. The fuel trucks were missed by the arrows on the left, but hit on the right. Each arrow is counted as a bullet (shrapnal if you will) with its own force and AP value. Small bombs cast less arrows at lower AP value then big ones. Same for rockets.

The best way to kill a tank by bombs is to put the bomb BEHIND the enemy tank, not on it. I have tested this over and over and over. You can drop a 1000lb bomb through the CENTER of a Tiger and it wont die, but place it behind, then the arrows hit the thinner back armor and boom. YES, thats wrong, but thats the way IL2 works. And quite frankly its better then any other combat flight sim. In CFS3, I sunk a battleship with .50 cal's since it uses a very basic hitpoint value and not armor value. I would rather have Oleg's way then MS's way, or you really could kill Tiger tanks with .50 cal's http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Gib

woofiedog
07-07-2005, 02:21 AM
IIJG69-Niklaus... Great Posting... you have some interesting info here.
Thank's

Warlordimi
07-07-2005, 03:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The BK37 on the Bf-110 uses HE ammo and is used for bomber busting. NOT good VS tanks. You need a lot of hits in the back panel or from above, but its possible.

The BK37 on the Ju-87 uses AP (Tungstin core) and will bust a tank wide open from almost every angle but head-on. The best angle is from the side. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What is strange, it's the fact that Shermans are VERY sensitive to the BF110's Bk37. If you dive at a sharp angle, it's a one shot one kill. Which is impossible with russian tanks.

Last year, we had an online campaign called "Nach Bastogne". Some pilots often came back with 10 or even 12 shermans destroyed in a single mission. This is simplyy impossible against russian tanks which moreover have a perfect camouflage that makes them VERY difficult to spot.

So I think the problem is not really the gun itself. The problem are the tanks.

BBB_Hyperion
07-07-2005, 08:43 AM
Hmm when the BK37 on 110 uses HE it wouldnt be possible to get through tank armor right ? This would exclude the ability to take out shermans , t34 , t35 85 etc with 1 hit right ? Conclusion if it uses HE Ammo the Tank DM Model is wrong or it does not use HE Ammo.

IIJG69-Niklaus
07-07-2005, 09:56 AM
I remade tests... With the Ju87G1, we can open T34, Su85 and Kv1 by dive attacks... not really the same tactics as Rudel...

I tested this new tactic with the Bf110 and I can sse the difference of ammo load, impossible to open a KV1, but possible to open the 2 others.

I don't think that it's irrealistic because most of the tanks had light armor on the top.

BBB_Hyperion
07-07-2005, 10:27 AM
Its possible here the track.

http://rapidshare.de/files/2874591/bf110g2bk37vskv2t34.zip.html

There are some things fishy with armor penetration values but it still works under some conditions.

IIJG69-Niklaus
07-07-2005, 10:29 AM
Tests with Bombs, SC500:

http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/7489/il2mw050707180342c050707173941.jpg http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/2880/il2mw050707180459c050707180458.jpg http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/7027/il2mw050707180711c050707180711.jpg http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/1337/il2mw050707180756c050707180756.jpg

I never reached to destroy a KV1 without direct impact, but I reached with T34.

http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/4422/il2mw050707180825c050707180825.jpg

And theses tests were offline.


I will host a tank busting dog this night, 21.00 french hour.

BBB_Hyperion
07-07-2005, 11:08 AM
Did you check the picture of the js2 with sc50s above ?

Hitting Zones for Tanks in close range left right and behind the target not diagonal. The dm of the tanks is limited . I have a article for bombtests describing t34 and m4 still were in 1 piece with a bombexplosion of sc250 at 3 m range(Only MKIV Churchill chassis broken at 5 m sc250 exlosion). On the T34 the dieseloil catched fire in the process however. To be noted as there was no damage to the tank itself test animals inside were all dead cause of the pressure burst effect.

Results of the tests were small Bombs were needed with Hollowcharged modiefications namely the SD4-HL was developed after this tests.

telsono
07-07-2005, 04:13 PM
Warlordimi;

I believe the difference with the Sherman tanks is their higher degree of flamability. They used gasoline as a fuel instead of diesel like the Russians. The Sherman tanks had a nickname of "Ronsons" after the cigarette lighter brand because of their tendency to burn easily. A German comment about the Sherman was that one German tank could destroy 10 Shermans, but the Americans always had eleven.

IIJG69-Niklaus
07-20-2005, 06:43 AM
6 * SC2000: KV1, T34 and Su85:

http://img345.imageshack.us/img345/364/sc20001wj.jpg