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SirPapps
12-17-2006, 06:21 PM
Hey all! Just got my arse in from Aces High II and I was wondering about buying this better-looking game. But first I need to learn a few things... In AH:II, the F4U/-1/A/D/-4 could outturn a Spitfire VIII,IX,XIV when the Hog was at 250 IAS. It could do so when deploying at least 20 degrees of flaps, and the Spits couldn't deploy their 'single-stage' flaps until they dropped to 150 IAS. Even THEN, a full flap Hog could outturn the full flap Spit, but it would be too slow, so that wasn't advisable.

Is this true at all in this game, or in real life for that matter? (I'd hate to be flying an overmodeled plane).

P.S. The search engine here seems to be terrible btw, since i had JUST posted this and I tried to search for it with the exact title and it didnt appear in my results.

SirPapps
12-17-2006, 06:21 PM
Hey all! Just got my arse in from Aces High II and I was wondering about buying this better-looking game. But first I need to learn a few things... In AH:II, the F4U/-1/A/D/-4 could outturn a Spitfire VIII,IX,XIV when the Hog was at 250 IAS. It could do so when deploying at least 20 degrees of flaps, and the Spits couldn't deploy their 'single-stage' flaps until they dropped to 150 IAS. Even THEN, a full flap Hog could outturn the full flap Spit, but it would be too slow, so that wasn't advisable.

Is this true at all in this game, or in real life for that matter? (I'd hate to be flying an overmodeled plane).

P.S. The search engine here seems to be terrible btw, since i had JUST posted this and I tried to search for it with the exact title and it didnt appear in my results.

VW-IceFire
12-17-2006, 06:47 PM
Hello.

In general no that would not be true in real life. The Spitfire was a great turn fighter for an aircraft of its weight and speed. Its not of course nearly as good as the Zero or other Japanese types but its an excellent aircraft in the turn.

Now as for the game, according to IL2 Compare which uses some (but not all) in game calculations we can roughly assume that the F4U-1D will out turn the Spitfire LF.IXc at speeds above 400kph IAS.

What I think you will see in this game is that the Corsair excels as a boom and zoom slash attack fighter. So much so that with a little extra speed advantage and some height to spare a Corsair can easily get a better initial turn than any Spitfire, cut into his turn, and put some bullets into him (should the scenario require http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif) without too much trouble.

The Corsair is quite nice in the initial turn (although it bleeds rapidly in prolonged turns) and is very stable while doing it. The Spitfire I find tends to not be quite as stable when you pull that hard that fast and I find one wing or the other will try and snatch more lift and you can quickly stall.

If you are a Corsair fan, this game is quite good as it has 4 major versions plus the Fleet Air Arm versions with slightly clipped wings. We sadly don't have the super powered F4U-4 but the F4U-1D is a great boom and zoom fighter plus ground attack is great fun with the heavy bomb load or rocket/bomb combination. We even have the Tiny Tim rockets which can theoretically sink carriers in a single hit.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/icefire-tempestv.jpg
Find my missions at Flying Legends (http://www.flying-legends.net/php/downloads/downloads.php?cat_id=19) and Mission4Today.com (http://www.mission4today.com).

[Elite]cobrae
12-17-2006, 07:10 PM
I could not agree more with Ice on this. I too uesd to play AH in the early days and all I flew was a 1C

If you do buy this game expect to be in for a big shock as it does have a fairly steep learning curve when you come from an arcade game like Aces High ... Mind you I'm not bashing AH at one time it was a fun game but in comparison it just falls short.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

Im so confused i feel like a hungry baby in a topless club.

SirPapps
12-17-2006, 07:23 PM
Thanks, all.

Wow, Cobrae, I always saw AH:II as a flight sim... I know it lacks MANY things (i.e. manual prop trim, shifting of gears in supercharged planes, and its weird that the spits have airleron trim, since they didnt in WWII etc.), but wow.. THAT game seemed hard enough, but this game looks impossible now... yet still awesome!

Thanks to you too, Ice. But that's what I meant in AHII... the intial turn. If a Hog pilot chooses to attempt a stall fight with these spits under all these flaps, he WILL slow down so bad, a Spit will circle around him. In the game, I always take some alt to use as a low yo yo to pull my plane throuhg a tight turn... if the Spit tries the same maneuver, he can't outturn me since he's not heavy enough. Additionally, I'll use flaps to corner and cut into his turn (like you said, I just couldn't put my finger on it) but as i slow down, he'll start to outturn me, thus the use for the essential low yoyo.

Another thing is that, in this game, the Corsairs and most planes will outrun, outturn and just kill the Tempest above low altitudes. I used to love the Tempest, but the game only allowed it to Run, the give a Head On attack... like a 262 essentially. Is there actually more to the Tempest in real life and in this game? If there are any websites that show the performance and maneuverability on these a/c, I'd LOVE to see them.

super71957
12-17-2006, 10:09 PM
Hi SirPapps,
You can go to www.spitfireperformance.com (http://www.spitfireperformance.com) to get a good take on the Tempest.Read some of the pilot accounts to,really great stuff.
I to love the Corsair,especially the awsome C model with 20mm cannon.Lot of fun to fly but can at times be a bear.It will swap ends if you push it to far,but not to many nasty habits in this sim.You will really enjoy the hec out of this flight sim,it truly is one of a kind.I have had it a couple of years now and still fly 4 to 5 nights a week with no signs of slowing down. Enjoy.

Waldo.Pepper
12-17-2006, 10:22 PM
If you buy IL2 you are going to DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE, for years perhaps! (until you shed your bad habits) But you will both love and respect the game. (and also hate it because of the stupid things in it.)<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/WaldoPepper/sig/p61rev.jpg

VW-IceFire
12-17-2006, 10:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SirPapps:
Thanks, all.

Wow, Cobrae, I always saw AH:II as a flight sim... I know it lacks MANY things (i.e. manual prop trim, shifting of gears in supercharged planes, and its weird that the spits have airleron trim, since they didnt in WWII etc.), but wow.. THAT game seemed hard enough, but this game looks impossible now... yet still awesome!

Thanks to you too, Ice. But that's what I meant in AHII... the intial turn. If a Hog pilot chooses to attempt a stall fight with these spits under all these flaps, he WILL slow down so bad, a Spit will circle around him. In the game, I always take some alt to use as a low yo yo to pull my plane throuhg a tight turn... if the Spit tries the same maneuver, he can't outturn me since he's not heavy enough. Additionally, I'll use flaps to corner and cut into his turn (like you said, I just couldn't put my finger on it) but as i slow down, he'll start to outturn me, thus the use for the essential low yoyo.

Another thing is that, in this game, the Corsairs and most planes will outrun, outturn and just kill the Tempest above low altitudes. I used to love the Tempest, but the game only allowed it to Run, the give a Head On attack... like a 262 essentially. Is there actually more to the Tempest in real life and in this game? If there are any websites that show the performance and maneuverability on these a/c, I'd LOVE to see them. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
That does sound quite a bit like our Corsair. The only thing you'll be contending with in the non-historic quake style dogfight servers is that the Corsair is not the fastest accelerating or fastest fighter around. Yak-3s and La-7s run circles around Corsairs...they of course have zero ground pounding ability and are somewhat fragile in comparison but they are also much smaller.

The Tempest is a beautiful aircraft in the game. Its my favourite so I'm biased. Actually the Tempest and Corsair share many similar attributes in flight modeling and I find jumping from one to the other fairly easy to do. Similar size, performance, gun placement, and great visibility forward from the cockpit. The Tempest seems to have more power in reserve ...probably because its lighter.

Anyways that sounds somewhat wrong to me as far as the Tempest should go. Its turn rate was above average and much like the Corsair can leverage a great initial turn and cut inside most opponents. Its also blessed with an excellent elevator and aileron design so rolls at speed are fairly quick and elevators remain responsive throughout the speed range. The game essentially reflects the Tempests behavior closely and when I read some of the RAF test pilots detailed reports on how the plane handles...the IL-2 series version seems to be mostly right. Never perfect of course...and we sadly have a +9lb boost version which is earlier and less common than the +11lb boost version. Basically this means you need to know full throttle heights in more detail so you aren't fighting in a power band the engine doesn't like.

That all aside...great fighter and as I said before...actually quite similar in handling to the Corsair in many ways. I would say that in a Tempest VS Corsair fight...the performance is close and that the Corsair would win in a stall fight but probably not at high speed. You can chuck the Tempest through more violent maneuvers at high speed than you can the Corsair.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/icefire-tempestv.jpg
Find my missions at Flying Legends (http://www.flying-legends.net/php/downloads/downloads.php?cat_id=19) and Mission4Today.com (http://www.mission4today.com).

SirPapps
12-18-2006, 01:55 PM
Ah.. thanks Ice. Btw,Super, I've checked spitfireperformance.com, but since I've been playing Aces High so much and the planes are a little less accurate in that game, I could not rely on that site. Now that I know that these planes are much more realistic, I know where to get my info from.

I think I'll stick to my 'nooby' Spitfire VIII since the only reason why I flew the Hog was because it turned tighter at even low-speed, flat-turns in Aces High... that in combination with great speed made it waaay to dengerous, and I've killed many-a Spit in it. Now that I know that a Hog can't out flat-turn a Spit in a stall fight even WITH flaps, I'll go back to my VIII - one of my favorite planes. Lol, do you pros think it's nooby XD?

ShaK.
12-20-2006, 07:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Waldo.Pepper:
If you buy IL2 you are going to DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE, for years perhaps! (until you shed your bad habits) But you will both love and respect the game. (and also hate it because of the stupid things in it.) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pepper is right, AND when you get you first (not lucky, but worked for) online kill, Its a BIG sence of accomplishment and pride

VW-IceFire
12-21-2006, 03:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SirPapps:
Ah.. thanks Ice. Btw,Super, I've checked spitfireperformance.com, but since I've been playing Aces High so much and the planes are a little less accurate in that game, I could not rely on that site. Now that I know that these planes are much more realistic, I know where to get my info from.

I think I'll stick to my 'nooby' Spitfire VIII since the only reason why I flew the Hog was because it turned tighter at even low-speed, flat-turns in Aces High... that in combination with great speed made it waaay to dengerous, and I've killed many-a Spit in it. Now that I know that a Hog can't out flat-turn a Spit in a stall fight even WITH flaps, I'll go back to my VIII - one of my favorite planes. Lol, do you pros think it's nooby XD? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well there are few planes where you can't get called a "n00b" in so I do best to ignore those folks. I've even been called a "n00b" and a "coward" in a FW190 and in a P-47...so take those folks with a grain of salt. They obviously have no class.

Spitfire is a beautiful airplane...love it to pieces...I don't tend to fly it online that much because folks are always flying it and it gets a bit boring in the quake style dogfight servers where every second plane is a Spitfire. You will be in for a bit of a shocker if you're style is the turn and burn type because, while the Spitfire is great in a turn, its not nearly as good as the Zeros, Yaks, Lavochkins and a few other types (Ki-84 at some speeds can hold a Spitfire even) so be prepared to find yourself out turned at any altitude up to about 5000-7000 meters (between about 15,000 and 20,000 feet). Some of the lighter 109 models like the 109G-2 can also give any Spitfire a serious run for its money in a turn fight.

Generally the boom and zoom method and high speed turns are more survivable but not always as fun. Depends on your style. Just that if you're not used to the eastern and western front aircraft being part of the same battle then the rules are a little different as the Russians made some great turn fighters.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/icefire-tempestv.jpg
Find my missions at Flying Legends (http://www.flying-legends.net/php/downloads/downloads.php?cat_id=19) and Mission4Today.com (http://www.mission4today.com).

SirPapps
12-21-2006, 07:06 PM
Ha, the TnB style in a Spitfire VIII? I've come to learn and honor the Spit so much, I know that the Mk.VIII didn't gain all that extra horsepower to TnB. I'll use it's great climb to get me a BnZ shot.

Too bad though... I'm going to have to buy a 'control yoke' (my buddies can't help laughing when I say joystick). Thanks, all, for the help!

SirPapps
12-22-2006, 08:01 PM
Had a thought after doing some research on how other sims compare with this one (woots for nerdiness).

The Ki-84 and La-7's can be a big pain for the Hog (which I'm thinking about being my main a/c once i get a joystick). They seem to fly uber quick and are very maneuverable .. not to mention they climb better. In Aces High II, the Ki-84's would rip apart above 450 mph (720 km/h i believe) and the La-7 could be outmaneuvered in the turn (with combat flaps of course) against the Hog.

Additionally, I've read Hardball's evaluations. They're quite good, but I wonder if the D-Hog can outturn an La-7 in this game. According to his info, the La-7 will turn a full circle in 18.1 seconds = 19.9 deg/sec @ 312 kph w/ combat flaps (18.27 seconds @ 362 km/h w/ flaps). The D-Hog then says: 20.21 seconds = 17.8 deg/sec @ 356 km/h w/OUT flaps (20.85 sec @ 320 km/h w/out flaps). Since the figures in the brackets mean turn TIME, then I'm assuming the Hog may give the La-7 a good run for its money when the F4U-1D deploys combat flaps. It's also almost impossible to compare the planes' turning abilities as they each have turning measured at different speeds in addition to the different flap settings.

Btw, hardball, the info is great, but things like mentioned above are missing (also, things like speed and climb are compared at different heights... we can't compare planes when they have different x-variables). Thanks again all.

VW-IceFire
12-22-2006, 09:45 PM
La-7 will win in the stall fight just because it can power its way through any turn you can try and match (combination light weight, powerful engine, and decent wing loading plus wing slats). You could try and match his turn rate and maybe succeed but he'll be going faster whenever he wants and flick off in some odd direction.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/icefire-tempestv.jpg
Find my missions at Flying Legends (http://www.flying-legends.net/php/downloads/downloads.php?cat_id=19) and Mission4Today.com (http://www.mission4today.com).

MAILMAN------
12-23-2006, 06:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SirPapps:
Had a thought after doing some research on how other sims compare with this one (woots for nerdiness).

The Ki-84 and La-7's can be a big pain for the Hog (which I'm thinking about being my main a/c once i get a joystick). They seem to fly uber quick and are very maneuverable .. not to mention they climb better. In Aces High II, the Ki-84's would rip apart above 450 mph (720 km/h i believe) and the La-7 could be outmaneuvered in the turn (with combat flaps of course) against the Hog.

Additionally, I've read Hardball's evaluations. They're quite good, but I wonder if the D-Hog can outturn an La-7 in this game. According to his info, the La-7 will turn a full circle in 18.1 seconds = 19.9 deg/sec @ 312 kph w/ combat flaps (18.27 seconds @ 362 km/h w/ flaps). The D-Hog then says: 20.21 seconds = 17.8 deg/sec @ 356 km/h w/OUT flaps (20.85 sec @ 320 km/h w/out flaps). Since the figures in the brackets mean turn TIME, then I'm assuming the Hog may give the La-7 a good run for its money when the F4U-1D deploys combat flaps. It's also almost impossible to compare the planes' turning abilities as they each have turning measured at different speeds in addition to the different flap settings.

Btw, hardball, the info is great, but things like mentioned above are missing (also, things like speed and climb are compared at different heights... we can't compare planes when they have different x-variables). Thanks again all. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
The KI-84:
According to Oleg Maddox the Ki-84-1a, Ki-84-1b, Ki-84-1c had a top speed of 584 KPH/362.88 MPH/315 Knots @ Sea Level and 687 KPH/426.88 MPH/370.95 Knots @ 6,100 M/20,013.12 Feet and these are the performance specifications used in the game.

I don't have and issue with the low altitude speed up to middle altitudes nor its acceration and climb. I do dispute the top speed of 426.88 MPH. Most references put the performance of the Ki-84 as 631 KPH/392 MPH @ 6,120 M/20,080 Ft.

This is leaves a disparity of 34 MPH. JAAF pilots interviewed state that the Ki-84's that they flew topped out between 388-400 MPH depending on its servicing and quality of aviation fuel. They also did not have dependeble superchargers so the general performance of the Ki-84 suffered at high altitude. In the game it performs well at high altitudes.

There is one exception to this performance and it is the one that Oleg has chosen to model for this aircraft. There was a captured Ki-84 that was test flown by the US. It was stripped of its paint (bare metal), guns and armour (yes the Japanese started to provide armour for the late war planes). It was given maintenance under ideal conditions especially the supercharger. It also use US aviation fuel which had a much higher octane rating than that used by Japan. Under these conditions the Ki-84, one aircraft, had the high performance specifications that are used in the game. So be forwarned with this aircraft in any arena you fly especially the "air quake" dogfight arenas.

Another note for you is that you cannot choose which fuel tank is being used like you can in Aces High. You cannot select the left wing tank in a Corsair to drain first as was the procedure in the real aircraft to help with the left wing stall characteristics. The fuel gage is incorrect in the F4U-1D and Corsair IV. It holds and indicates only half of what you select. The other Corsair gages indicate correctly.

In the P-51 you cannot drain the rear fuselage tank first which was the procedure to eliminate the center of balance being to far aft which caused maneuverability problems. In the game this tank is drained last which may explain the stalls and spins entered when maneuvering at hi speed. I have seen Ki-84's maintain position and range in ultra hispeed dives and the P-51 sheds its wings before the "Frank".

If you decide to take up a P-40E or P-40M there is no fuel gage. The position should be on the left side of the cockpit near the fuel tank selector switch. There is one fuel gage on the floor next to the base of the stick, but this does not work and was there to indicate fuel in an external drop tank on the real P-40's.

Due to tinkering with the wing mounted guns on US aircraft in patches after the intial game release the nose of your aircraft will excessively yaw or pitch (varies per aircraft) when you initially pull the trigger. In some cases an entire battery of guns on one wing run out of ammo and cease firing while the 2 or 3 guns keep firing for quite some time on the other wing. This has been tested, do***ented and submitted to Oleg (PF@1C.ru) a year or so ago. As of version 4.05 this is not corrected.

Dive accelleration (straight from Oleg) is not modelled so the weight of your aircraft will not get you away from a pursuer until the enemy aircraft reaches its top speed while your aircraft continues to increase speed. In other words even pre-A6M5's will hang with you in a dive for a long time and all Zeroes can still roll well above the do***ented speeds where the big aeilerons became almost imobile. US Naval & Marine Corp aircraft speed gage is in MHP, not KNOTS Indicated Air Speed as was the real aircraft (straight from Oleg).

And on occaisions when you are at ultra high altitude some aircraft altimeters stop working at 30,000 Ft. like the Corsair, Hellcat and Thunderbolt while others keep indicating like the P-51 and P-38. This is only a problem if a server disables the speed and altitude in the speedbar at the lower left portion of your monitor screen.

Lastly, in dogfight arenas the aircraft carriers are stationary. Therefore you can never take maximum ordinance from a carrier deck. I can get a Hellcat off of the deck with 100% fuel, 6 AP HVAR rockets and two 1000# bombs from a Lexington Class or Essex Class stationary carrier, but I cannot do the same with any of the Corsairs, not even close. Empty the Hellcat is a heavier aircraft than the Corsair. So go figure.

Oh and by the way your Corsair does have the correct Dive Brakes, the front landing gear only extends when using the dive brakes.

It is a fun game to play even with some of its glaring inaccuracies. I hope this will explain some of the frustrations you will experience when playing, especially online, and won't come as a big shock when it happens.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

-)-MAILMAN-

@={=MUSKETEERS=&gt;

SirPapps
12-23-2006, 08:53 AM
UGH. Now my eyes hurt! I used to always use up my port fuel tank first. Oh well. Btw, Mailman, I actually have a picture of that bareskin Frank you talked about. It is kinda smelly that the one in the game is modeled after that particular plane, but I guess I could attempt to deal with it. UGH La-7's... the scourge of my confidence.

Anyway, I was wondering how I could get that 4.05 patch. Prices, expansion packs, online downloads, etc.

Thanks everyone, once again.

Antoninus
12-23-2006, 12:09 PM
The Pe-2 addon (4.05) is only available for download from the UBI site outside of Russia. Instead of just buying 4.05 pack it's maybe better to purchase the 46 DVD with includes everything up to version 4.07 which will probably quickly become the new standard online. Also the gun induced yaw bug in some US aircraft is fixed in this version.

About the fuel gauge bug:
The F4U-1D did not have the wing tanks of the earlier models so that only the main tank with 237 gallons remained, thus it could carry around 65% of the F4U-1s fuel. Since F4U-1D fuel gauge in the game is always ca. 70% empty it seems that other than in real life the fuel gauge seems to work as indicator for all internal fuel tanks, and not just the main tank, despite that it ends at 240 gallons.

The wing tanks were not self sealing and in the (british) pilot note's for Corsair I-IV it is recommended to not use them in combat operations or flood the tanks with Co2 to prevent explosions that can be caused by vapourized fuel when hit. Sadly it is also not possible to choose which tanks are filled, only the total percentage of fuel.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

_____________________________________
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Actually everybody talks about aerial combat. I maintain that hitting ground targets, and especially ships is more dangerous than aerial combat. - Joe Foss

SirPapps
12-23-2006, 02:58 PM
Alright... I think I've read enough. As great as game experience IL-2 and PF give, I think I just can't afford everything... the 1946, the joystick, the computer etc. Great game, but I'll have to reconsider buying it.

Brainfart - wondering why the F.Mk.VIII was modeled instead of the LF.Mk.VIII which was far more common. Lol - I'm a whiner too! We gotta get a Spit14!

SirPapps
12-29-2006, 11:52 PM
Okay, so now I may get 1946, provided I'm allowed.

Anyway, I was reading over again. Ice-Fire, you said that i may match his turn RATE. Does this mean I would be able to turn tighter in a Spit VIII for example but he would be finishing his circle faster?