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View Full Version : Why does the Hurricane still fly with shot up wings like this?



cawimmer430
08-05-2006, 03:42 AM
http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/7672/hurricaneiicvsbf11004pa1.jpg

In other aircraft, you have to bail out. Is this a programming error?

cawimmer430
08-05-2006, 03:42 AM
http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/7672/hurricaneiicvsbf11004pa1.jpg

In other aircraft, you have to bail out. Is this a programming error?

cawimmer430
08-05-2006, 04:00 AM
BUMP

Hashmark13
08-05-2006, 04:04 AM
Bumpity.

antifreeze
08-05-2006, 04:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Is this a programming error? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

All I can think of is that the visual damage to the skin only approximates the actual damage model, which is much more intricate. I don't know how they are equated to each other, but it looks to me like the skinner got somekind of 'damage-level' wrong for that particular part of the aircraft. Like the damage model reports 'heavy damage to wingtip', but we get the 'completely destroyed' visual for it?

With that damage, how long are you able to fly for? Could you land like that? Is the pilot just able to keep it level by full rudder and aileron trim and maxing out the joystick? What happens if he tries to turn? Was actually it flying, was it diving at speed? I mean, just because they managed to stop the rotation doesn't mean that it was actually flyable.

cawimmer430
08-05-2006, 04:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Antifreeze:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Is this a programming error? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

All I can think of is that the visual damage to the skin only approximates the actual dmage model, which is much more intricate. I don't know how they are equated to each other, but it looks to me like the skinner got somekind of 'damage-level' wrong for that particular part of the aircraft. Like the damage model reports 'heavy damage to wingtip, but we get the 'completely destroyed' visual for it?

With that damage, how long are you able to fly for? Could you land like that? Is the pilot just able to keep it level by full rudder and aileron trim and maxing out the joystick? What happens if he tries to turn? Was actually it flying, was it diving at speed? I mean, just because they managed to stop the rotation doesn't mean that it was actually flyable. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It flies pretty normal actually, you just have to adjust the rudder trim a bit. In this case (before the fire) the Hurricane tends to rotate to the left (where the damaged wing is). This has happened before (also in Pacific Fighters) and I can land the Hurricane though slow speed handling worsens with the wing condition. Speed and acceleration naturally decrease.

F19_Olli72
08-05-2006, 04:52 AM
IIRC other planes can also fly with shot off wingtips, Stuka and Bf110. Other than that, like Antifreeze said. Visual damage doesnt mimic the FM damage.

WTE_Ibis
08-05-2006, 05:00 AM
Because it's a great aircraft.

.

SeaFireLIV
08-05-2006, 05:25 AM
The Hurri was pretty wide wings (as can be seen) with a pretty large surface area. The wings are also quite thick compared to most fighters. You lose some stability, but I certainly see no reason why this thing still couldn`t fly. Also, there are other planes that still fly with similar type damage, so picking just on the Hurri isn`t fair. You also haven`t named the planes you have to bail out of with the same damage.

I`ve seen worse in real life WWII photos.

I`m sure someone will post something up.

Monty_Thrud
08-05-2006, 05:38 AM
Roger that SeaFire, theres a photo of an SBD(i think)with much more of its wing shot off and still flying.

F19_Olli72
08-05-2006, 05:42 AM
U mean this?
http://img111.imageshack.us/img111/302/damagedcorsair7vf.jpg

JG53Frankyboy
08-05-2006, 05:57 AM
http://www.warbirdpictures.com/NavyJB&W2/A5M-27.jpg


but anyway, this is a game , not real flying !

Monty_Thrud
08-05-2006, 05:59 AM
Yuz, thats the one,thanks, but it has mysteriously turned into an Avenger http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

SeaFireLIV
08-05-2006, 07:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by F19_Olli72:
U mean this?
http://img111.imageshack.us/img111/302/damagedcorsair7vf.jpg </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks, Olli.

Maybe God made a creation error with the world physics!

Man, if there was a forum to God, I`m sure people would whine to him asking if he made an error in stuff like this. "God, shouldn`t this plane crash cos it`s still flying with a bit of wing shot off? Hey the BF109 should have outflown everything! Why don`t the 0.50s kill Tiger tanks?"

He`d be answering indignant questions forever! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

I think I know why he keeps quiet these days.

Xiolablu3
08-05-2006, 08:14 AM
Its simply a 'Level Of Damage'

The actual look of damage on your plane is not what actually happened to that wing.

For example if you spray a wing with MG fire, you will not see holes where the bullets actually hit, the wing will be changed to look damaged, but the look of the damage bears no relation to what actually happened to the wing.

Each plane has a damage model which get progressively worse each time its hit.

That 'end of wing broken' damage is probably comparible to the FW190 'MG peppered wing' or the 109 and Spit 'hole in the wing'.

It simply represents wing damage, dont pay too much attention to the wing actually being broken.

Take a look at the LOD models which someone has to submit when they submit a plane, you will see 'greneric' damage depeding on the level of damage, not the actualy type of damage.

For example, its possible to get a 'mg peppered wing' from 20mm cannon damage if its done light damage.

heywooood
08-05-2006, 08:55 AM
its a kite, like alot of other early airplanes - they didn't have the power to be constructed heavy - so they were light. The Hurri was one of the lightest. Lots of wing area helps too.

VW-IceFire
08-05-2006, 09:06 AM
You can get wingtip damage in any plane. The actual damage shown is COSMETIC. The game engine doesn't care how many pixels are hanging off the side of the wing.

heywooood
08-05-2006, 09:14 AM
yeah ingame reality is what Icefire says...wait for BoB to *hopefully* have realworld aerodynamic damage effect...and not scripted either...Oleg ye've been warned http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

PBNA-Boosher
08-05-2006, 09:37 AM
The P-51, P-47, and Bf-110 also have this DM modeled. It's just a feature of the game. Personally I like it, as it reflects how robust the Hurricane could be at times.

anarchy52
08-05-2006, 09:51 AM
Visual representation of the damage varies in quality from aircraft to aircraft as does the actual effect of damage on FM.

I do not know how the game calculates the damage FM, but I suspect it's not calculated but hard coded and disregards actual ammo used. For instance Zero with very large wing area compared to it's low weight suffers tremendously from few mg hits on the wing which makes no sense. I fail to see how 2 .50 cal rounds could inflict such performance penalty. That's 2 neat entry holes and 2 larger exit holes...added drag and reduction of wing area can not explain the enormous performance loss.

Opposite examples are common with VVS planes. Large area of plywood skin blown off by 20mm minegeschoss shell should greatly affect handling, yet it doesn't.

Divine-Wind
08-05-2006, 09:58 AM
IIRC, Oleg said that a much much more detailed and intricate DM system would be implemented in BoB. In Il-2/FB/PF, the 'Visual Damage System' is separate from the DM, so you could have half a wing missing, and still be flying because the damage system doesn't register it.

... Or something like that.

cawimmer430
08-05-2006, 02:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by F19_Olli72:
IIRC other planes can also fly with shot off wingtips, Stuka and Bf110. Other than that, like Antifreeze said. Visual damage doesnt mimic the FM damage. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for reminding me, the BF-110 too! I fly that thing often and I am surprised I didn't think of it. Must be early stages of Alzheimers... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

cawimmer430
08-05-2006, 02:26 PM
Thanks for the replies and info guys. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


Boy, that Val and Avenger are still flying! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

BfHeFwMe
08-05-2006, 03:20 PM
http://kg.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/f15.jpg

p1ngu666
08-05-2006, 04:40 PM
think someone said the history channel pics are fake?
putting flap down would make the plane roll?

most planes can fly with a similer or bigger chunk missing irl.

damage model graphics is 3 levels, i think, mild, medium and max.

crashland a aircraft and u get bullet holes, for example http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

berg417448
08-05-2006, 04:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by p1ngu666:
think someone said the history channel pics are fake?

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>


The photos on the left (ones of the F-15 flying) were done to dramatize the event and are acknowledged as being altered for visual effect. The photos on the right are said to be real.

p1ngu666
08-05-2006, 04:54 PM
yeah, i forgot the word some http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/1072.gif

edgflyer
08-05-2006, 07:30 PM
I flew this one for quite awhile. I got 3 before my deimse. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://images1.snapfish.com/3477%3A635%3A%7Ffp34%3B%3Enu%3D328%3B%3E476%3E272% 3EWSNRCG%3D3233%3A2%3C673637nu0mrj

DIRTY-MAC
08-05-2006, 08:21 PM
thats some wicked shots, that val....man...

Pirschjaeger
08-05-2006, 08:48 PM
Another case of visual damage doesn't equal actual damage.

I've been strafed while being in the ground. Twice now, I've had my tail shot off, from just behind the cockpit, and my plane continues to balance itself in the correct position. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

I think someone posted a pic of the in the "worst landing screenies thread"

Fritz

IL2-chuter
08-06-2006, 03:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by F19_Olli72:
U mean this?
http://img111.imageshack.us/img111/302/damagedcorsair7vf.jpg </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Bob King's Avenger. The plane was hit by flak and started spinning and Bob straightened it out so the crew could bail. He took off his belts but found the plane would start rolling when he released the controls to jump (duh) but he otherwise had good control (meanwhile, his crew had bailed), so good that when he got back to the ship he requested (and was denied) permission to come aboard, so he ditched. He was never the same.

Sergio_101
08-06-2006, 09:27 AM
The one winged F-15 incident is real.
It happened in a collision.

I assume the "all flying" tail surfaces
of the F-15 kept it flying.
It must have flown at nearly 30 degrees to CL.

On the Grumman Avenger photo, notice the dye marker
in the water to the top of the photo.(light streeks)
Dye markers were often used in controlled ditchings
to make the rescure more easily and reliably done.
The pilot would "land" on the dye.

Sergio

cawimmer430
08-06-2006, 10:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BfHeFwMe:
http://kg.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/f15.jpg </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

How the hell does something like that still fly!? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Pirschjaeger
08-06-2006, 10:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by cawimmer430:
How the hell does something like that still fly!? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Trim on the slider. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

Fritz

VMF-214_HaVoK
08-06-2006, 10:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PBNA-Boosher:
The P-51, P-47, and Bf-110 also have this DM modeled. It's just a feature of the game. Personally I like it, as it reflects how robust the Hurricane could be at times. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes but the P-51 and the P-47 fly like **** once this damage occurs (which they should). But the Hurricane still turns quite well with this type of damage.

R_Target
08-06-2006, 11:19 AM
Isn't that IJN plane an A5M(Claude)?

Jetbuff
08-06-2006, 11:24 AM
It's not about lift. Most planes can generate enough lift to remain airborne on a lot less than their usual wing surface. (albeit at a likely higher speed) Thus the, "it's a kite", "big wings" and what not arguments are moot. What is the issue, is uneven lift. With so much of the wing gone, especially near the tip, there's a significant tendency to roll onto the damaged side and yaw. (direction dependent on damage profile)

Whether the plane remains airborne will depend entirely on the pilot's ability to counter that roll. If you have enough aileron/rudder control you should be able to pull it off. Landing in such a configuration is questionable though due to the higher stall speed and decrease in control authority at low speeds.

HellToupee
08-07-2006, 01:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by cawimmer430:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BfHeFwMe:
http://kg.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/f15.jpg </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

How the hell does something like that still fly!? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

i belive other than the wings the body is also designed to create lift, f15 i belive has a really low wing loading as a result.

JG53Frankyboy
08-07-2006, 02:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by R_Target:
Isn't that IJN plane an A5M(Claude)? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

yes, PO Kanichi Kashimura's A5M collided during a dogfight on 9 december 1937 - he made it back to base to Shanghai.

this pilot lost his life on an escort mission 6 march 1943 over the Solomons in a Zero.

VW-IceFire
08-07-2006, 09:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VMF-214_HaVoK:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PBNA-Boosher:
The P-51, P-47, and Bf-110 also have this DM modeled. It's just a feature of the game. Personally I like it, as it reflects how robust the Hurricane could be at times. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes but the P-51 and the P-47 fly like **** once this damage occurs (which they should). But the Hurricane still turns quite well with this type of damage. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Stalls really well too http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Viper2005_
08-07-2006, 10:02 AM
For flight you need power, stability and control. That's it.

Supply sufficient of all three to a brick and it'll fly quite nicely.

With modern technology of course, you can turn control into stability, so you only need control and power. If you're not interested in climbing, you can forget about power. Control is all you really need.

Military aeroplanes tend to have lots of excess power and plenty of control authority. As such, they can often sustain flight despite taking very impressive aerodynamic and structural damage, which is why aerial warfare often comes down to killing the pilot.

As for the game, if you want to see a really "interesting" DM, have a look at the 109Z...