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Kaleun1961
12-11-2007, 11:58 AM
I am saddened and distressed to see that the thread I started got locked. Saddened, I say, because it did start to spin out of hand in spite of appeals not to. The time had come to lock it and I agree with that decision.

I am saying thank you to KL and VG for their explanation of the original complaint and their subsequent elicitation of the forum rules. I "get it" in a way; although by my choice of banner I was not making a statement, but I see how the usage of a banner could cause grief to some. I am distressed that it had to be handled this way; I'm a reasonable guy and would have dealt with it in a very sensitive manner. But not everybody could feel comfortable with contacting a stranger about this. Anyhow, thank you to all who supported me through this. I know I have many friends here, but it is time to let this drop. I do not wish to see other members getting into hot water over this, so please do not use this thread to continue the debate. The moderators have made a reasonable decision, in light of all the factors considered. The swastika in banners has gone, but it remains for historical and artistic reasons in game imagery. We are now clear on the rules, which I must admit had seemed a bit vague until now. I consider the matter concluded and hope we can move forward from here. I did not start this thread to continue the debate, but I simply felt that I had to say something in support of our moderators. They had to render a tough decision, but in light of what they had to consider, I don't feel that hard done by; the rules will apply to all. Although my cherished banner has gone, I think there are enough elements in the old one that I can use to build a new one, which will still convey to you all who I am, one of your Grey Wolf brothers.

Kaleun1961
12-11-2007, 11:58 AM
I am saddened and distressed to see that the thread I started got locked. Saddened, I say, because it did start to spin out of hand in spite of appeals not to. The time had come to lock it and I agree with that decision.

I am saying thank you to KL and VG for their explanation of the original complaint and their subsequent elicitation of the forum rules. I "get it" in a way; although by my choice of banner I was not making a statement, but I see how the usage of a banner could cause grief to some. I am distressed that it had to be handled this way; I'm a reasonable guy and would have dealt with it in a very sensitive manner. But not everybody could feel comfortable with contacting a stranger about this. Anyhow, thank you to all who supported me through this. I know I have many friends here, but it is time to let this drop. I do not wish to see other members getting into hot water over this, so please do not use this thread to continue the debate. The moderators have made a reasonable decision, in light of all the factors considered. The swastika in banners has gone, but it remains for historical and artistic reasons in game imagery. We are now clear on the rules, which I must admit had seemed a bit vague until now. I consider the matter concluded and hope we can move forward from here. I did not start this thread to continue the debate, but I simply felt that I had to say something in support of our moderators. They had to render a tough decision, but in light of what they had to consider, I don't feel that hard done by; the rules will apply to all. Although my cherished banner has gone, I think there are enough elements in the old one that I can use to build a new one, which will still convey to you all who I am, one of your Grey Wolf brothers.

Realjambo
12-11-2007, 12:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I think there are enough elements in the old one that I can use to build a new one, which will still convey to you all who I am, one of your Grey Wolf brothers. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have no doubt about that K61, and I look forward to seeing your next sig.

Kaleun1961
12-11-2007, 12:36 PM
That'll probably take a few days to get to: I am still rebuilding my gaming system for Grey Wolves 2.0. Plus the shake-down cruise. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

When I say that I am "rebuilding" my system, I do not mean in a hardware sense, as I have pretty much in it all that I can want/need/afford right now, other than the 8800 graphics card I am drooling over. I use "rebuild" in that I have taken it down to a set of freshly formatted SATA hard drives in RAID0 format: 2 x 250 GB drives. This means I have to install XP [Media Center Edition] and the numerous updates, drivers, programs and system tweaking that it takes to get it up and running optimally and then joining it to my home network and networking my various printers and hardware. Quite the chore. That's just to get it to the point where it is worthy of installing all of my SH3 stuff. And SH4, now that the new patch is out.

Maverick_U2007
12-11-2007, 02:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Posted Dec 11, 6:58 PM
I am saddened and distressed to see that the thread I started got locked. Saddened, I say, because it did start to spin out of hand in spite of appeals not to. The time had come to lock it and I agree with that decision.

I am saying thank you to KL and VG for their explanation of the original complaint and their subsequent elicitation of the forum rules. I "get it" in a way; although by my choice of banner I was not making a statement, but I see how the usage of a banner could cause grief to some. I am distressed that it had to be handled this way; I'm a reasonable guy and would have dealt with it in a very sensitive manner. But not everybody could feel comfortable with contacting a stranger about this. Anyhow, thank you to all who supported me through this. I know I have many friends here, but it is time to let this drop. I do not wish to see other members getting into hot water over this, so please do not use this thread to continue the debate. The moderators have made a reasonable decision, in light of all the factors considered. The swastika in banners has gone, but it remains for historical and artistic reasons in game imagery. We are now clear on the rules, which I must admit had seemed a bit vague until now. I consider the matter concluded and hope we can move forward from here. I did not start this thread to continue the debate, but I simply felt that I had to say something in support of our moderators. They had to render a tough decision, but in light of what they had to consider, I don't feel that hard done by; the rules will apply to all. Although my cherished banner has gone, I think there are enough elements in the old one that I can use to build a new one, which will still convey to you all who I am, one of your Grey Wolf brothers. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well said and good luck with you next sig and semi-rebuild of your computer.

Maverick

U301
12-11-2007, 02:48 PM
Good bye to the best sig i've ever seen!
It's a pity that you will have too figure out a new one.
Good luck with GWX .2 K61!
KUrtz

TalladegaHack
12-11-2007, 05:02 PM
Well K61, I personally tried to defend YOUR right to use the digital sigs and banners of YOUR choice and was slapped down by one of the mods for it in a PM. I personally don't use sigs and banners, and never have. Thanks a bunch for silencing us all with this new topic thread of yours claiming that you never really cared about your freedoms to begin with. You more or less just tightened the noose around ALL of our necks by doing that and further drove the nail into the coffin that imprisons everyone's freedoms!

Yay! Another victory for the minority group! If this was a soccer (European football) match, you more or less just scored the winning goal for the other team. Nice job! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

klcarroll
12-11-2007, 05:16 PM
Talladegahack;

Why don't you try telling the truth?

You were "slapped down" for demeaning rhetoric and personal insults: ...Two things that have NEVER been allowed on these forums.

It was done in a PM to avoid embarrassing you with a public censure.

klcarroll

TalladegaHack
12-11-2007, 05:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by klcarroll:
Talladegahack;

Why don't you try telling the truth?

You were "slapped down" for demeaning rhetoric and personal insults: ...Two things that have NEVER been allowed on these forums.

It was done in a PM to avoid embarrassing you with a public censure.

klcarroll </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Yeah, I'm sure no personal feelings about the topic at hand had any involvement in your PM warning to me. If you felt that the Achmed reference was demeaning to you, then I apologize. It was WAY out of line. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif It was deployed more to be viewed as a reference towards your actions to "silence" the opposition versus being a direct insult as you apparently took it to be.

klcarroll
12-11-2007, 06:40 PM
Talladegahack;

OK, ........Fair enough!

First off; .....I have no "personal feelings about the topic"! .....If you want to put on a KKK white hood and sheet, and then claim you're impersonating Casper the Ghost, ......I really wouldn't care on a personal level: .....But I am aware that other people might care very much! ......And as a Moderator it is my job to listen to their concerns and opinions, and act in their behalf when appropriate. I do not assume that others will laugh off an instance of questionable taste just because I am inclined to deal with it that way.

Secondly, ....I honestly don't understand what you mean by my "actions to "silence" the opposition".

If you look at the forth post in K61's original thread, you will see that I specifically stated that the thread would remain open as long as the discussion remained civil. This served everyone well, because we (the Moderators) hadn't come to a final decision at that point either!

The only time we step in and stop a discussion is when it ceases to be conducted in a gentleman-like fashion. (I hope the ladies in the crowd will forgive the use of an arcane expression!)

klcarroll

TalladegaHack
12-11-2007, 07:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by klcarroll:
Talladegahack;

OK, ........Fair enough!

First off; .....I have no "personal feelings about the topic"! .....If you want to put on a KKK white hood and sheet, and then claim you're impersonating Casper the Ghost, ......I really wouldn't care on a personal level: .....But I am aware that other people might care very much! ......And as a Moderator it is my job to listen to their concerns and opinions, and act in their behalf when appropriate. I do not assume that others will laugh off an instance of questionable taste just because I am inclined to deal with it that way.

Secondly, ....I honestly don't understand what you mean by my "actions to "silence" the opposition".

If you look at the forth post in K61's original thread, you will see that I specifically stated that the thread would remain open as long as the discussion remained civil. This served everyone well, because we (the Moderators) hadn't come to a final decision at that point either!

The only time we step in and stop a discussion is when it ceases to be conducted in a gentleman-like fashion. (I hope the ladies in the crowd will forgive the use of an arcane expression!)

klcarroll </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


It appeared as though you were trying to hush/silence the opinions of those who have no problems with the banners and sigs of various forum members... All for the viewing pleasure of this ONE person who does have a problem. It would seem that this ONE person makes the rules around here.

For instance, if we've stated or not stated anything about liking or disliking the color orange for months (years even), and all of a sudden a newcomer comes along and says they dislike the color orange because it reminds them of the time the sun was bright and burned up all the innocent dinosaurs in the world, the UBISoft moderating staff feels they have the obligation to strip away the opinions, rights, and enjoyment from the rest of the group who never had a problem with it from the beginning. It doesn't make any sense at all to MOST of us. It probably makes sense only to the ONE person who has said anything about it. It's like their $0.02 cents are worth more than mine, or anybody elses on here.

But, if K61 feels that he should just accept the bite of the snake then so be it. I was arguing for him and for his rights. I'm a prior military man. I'm used to fighting for and defending what little freedoms are left for the people of the US. If they just want to throw them all away then that too is their right and I will fight for and defend that freedom as well.

bunkerratt
12-11-2007, 08:20 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

klcarroll
12-11-2007, 08:54 PM
Talladegahack;

Oh come down from there!!!!

I'm not going to bother "quote-blocking" your entire post: .....I'll simply take your points in order.

No, .....We are not running this forum "for the viewing pleasure of one person who has a problem": ....But when a user (any user) comes to us with a problem, we are obligated to check it out; ....As that is, in fact, part of our job.

If the issue turns out to be a volatile one, as this one was; ....and it is not covered adequately by existing rules or guidelines, ...then it is our job to correct that deficiency.

Your analogy using the color orange is simplistic to the point of being useless.

You and I both know that the Swastika is a special case; .....Possibly even a unique case! ......The vast majority of people on the planet equate the Swastika with the evils of the Nazi Regime. The fact that the Swastika has a 3000 year history in multiple cultures doesn't alter that fact: If you doubt me on this, try spending the day walking around any big city wearing a tee shirt with only a Swastika on it: .....And at the end of the day, tell me how many people complemented you on your Hindu Sun Symbol!!!

Given this widespread public perception, we (the Moderators) are obviously going to examine any issue regarding it's display carefully. The end result of our investigation was that it seemed appropriate to allow the Swastika to be displayed incidentally in a historical context, ....but not for general decoration.



Finally, there has been a lot of shouting about "Freedoms"; ......And I need to clarify a couple of things: (I know that you're not going to like this, ....but sometimes the truth suks!)

On a privately owned, on-line forum you have "Privileges", .....not "rights"! It is up to the owner of the forum (in this case UBI) to decide what the rules are, and what actions are to be taken when they are broken.

In the world of on-line forums you have exactly ONE right: ....The right to buy a server, and set up your own forum where you can do things exactly the way you want to.

Sorry! ....But that's the way it is!

klcarroll

Kaleun1961
12-11-2007, 09:16 PM
My decision to remove the sig banner was tough, no doubt about it. At first, I fired off a PM to one of the moderators and said a few things that after some second thought maybe I should not have said. I went back into my private messaging and deleted my message. I don't know if it was read, but it was there long enough.

I thought of making the freedom of speech argument, but at the end of the day I realize this is a privately owned forum and subject to someone else's rules. This is not a public arena and I really can't do much about it. This is not the government silencing my artistic imagery, it is a privately owned site and if they choose to run it the way they do, not much I can do about it. I disagree with the removal of my sig banner, but I removed it out of respect for the moderators, not for the sensitivities of whomever voiced an issue with it. I still think it is silly for those who are grieved by WW2 imagery to visit a WW2 forum, but there's not much I can do about the rules made by those who pay the bills for this forum. It's not a matter of me caving in on my civil rights. Civil and human rights don't apply on an internet site.

I'm also a former [Canadian] military man, so I know about defence of liberty. I know when and where to pick my fights and this one just wasn't it. I have no "rights" on my side here, else I would make a stand. I did think about it, but I figured that I would lose anyway, but in the meantime cause a whole lot of strife to end. I wish the current setup would not allow one disenchanted individual to ruin it for the many, but not much I can do about that, short of joining another site. I am also a member at SubSim and have displayed that banner there as well, with no problems to date. I could take my ball and go over there to play, but I'm not going to let one negative decision against me ruin the good times I have enjoyed here.

TalladegaHack
12-11-2007, 09:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by klcarroll:
Talladegahack;

Oh come down from there!!!!

I'm not going to bother "quote-blocking" your entire post: .....I'll simply take your points in order.

No, .....We are not running this forum "for the viewing pleasure of one person who has a problem": ....But when a user (any user) comes to us with a problem, we are obligated to check it out; ....As that is, in fact, part of our job.

If the issue turns out to be a volatile one, as this one was; ....and it is not covered adequately by existing rules or guidelines, ...then it is our job to correct that deficiency.

Your analogy using the color orange is simplistic to the point of being useless.

You and I both know that the Swastika is a special case; .....Possibly even a unique case! ......The vast majority of people on the planet equate the Swastika with the evils of the Nazi Regime. The fact that the Swastika has a 3000 year history in multiple cultures doesn't alter that fact: If you doubt me on this, try spending the day walking around any big city wearing a tee shirt with only a Swastika on it: .....And at the end of the day, tell me how many people complemented you on your Hindu Sun Symbol!!!

Given this widespread public perception, we (the Moderators) are obviously going to examine any issue regarding it's display carefully. The end result of our investigation was that it seemed appropriate to allow the Swastika to be displayed incidentally in a historical context, ....but not for general decoration.



Finally, there has been a lot of shouting about "Freedoms"; ......And I need to clarify a couple of things: (I know that you're not going to like this, ....but sometimes the truth suks!)

On a privately owned, on-line forum you have "Privileges", .....not "rights"! It is up to the owner of the forum (in this case UBI) to decide what the rules are, and what actions are to be taken when they are broken.

In the world of on-line forums you have exactly ONE right: ....The right to buy a server, and set up your own forum where you can do things exactly the way you want to.

Sorry! ....But that's the way it is!

klcarroll </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No doubt! And no thanks to people like "WhatsHisName" that started the whole arguement to begin with, with his stealthful cut-throat PM about HIS problem. My father always taught me that you don't put your hand in the hornet's nest without expecting to get stung. I feel he's been stung enough here and gets the point that he's upset quite a few people if he's been readin all this.

Anyways KC, I'm done with this match of Limbo. The pole is getting way too low now and if I go much lower my back is going to break and I will have to resort to using a walker to get around on like Dgrayson and Lane. Sorry, but the last Banana Cream Pie was too good to pass up on seconds! Fling-it Dgrayson! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

klcarroll
12-11-2007, 09:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">And no thanks to people like "WhatHisName" that started the whole arguement to begin with his stealthful cut-throat PM about HIS problem </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK! .....I'm going to say this calmly just one more time: ....If I am forced to repeat it again, ....it won't be pretty!

The person who made the originial inquiry was 100% correct in sending a PM to the Moderators!!

Fairness demands that any such request for a modification be made uniformly, on a forum wide basis!! It would be the absolute height of injustice to ask one user to change while allowing the rest of the population to maintain "business as usual".

A Forum Wide Initiative is not something that is within the capabilities of a single user.

The next person who implies that there was something "sneaky" or "dirty" about the way this was handled is going to find out what happens when I get annoyed! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

klcarroll

Rugbyfan1972
12-12-2007, 01:19 PM
K61 & KL

K61 thank you for attempting to have another attempt at explaining in a reasonably manner why you are changing your sig banner.

Kl thank you (and all the other moderators), for staying calm and trying to reason with the other members of this forum who disagree with the removal of the swastika and other contentcious issue that are raised from time to time.

Just my 2 cents worth.
Rugbyfan

U301
12-12-2007, 01:30 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif
KUrtz

Kaleun1961
12-12-2007, 01:42 PM
Thanks, guys. My point in starting this thread was to express my appreciation for the clarification of this issue. I'm not happy or thankful that my banner was removed, but I am thankful that we now have a uniform, forum-wide policy. We've been too long without a clear understanding, at least the way I see it. We now have that, even though we may disagree with it and the manner in which it was precipitated. The moderators made an unpopular decision, based on their direction from Ubisoft. Sometimes those difficult and unpopular decisions have to be made. It would have been easier to make the more popular decision and avoid all the flak. I think had we been allowed to carry on as before, that this site would have had its name dragged through the mud. The last thing we'd want to see is this site denigrated by outsiders and depicted as something other than what it really is. In doing their jobs, the moderators have to take direction from upstairs, directions to which we are not privy. I don't think we should shoot the messengers. Even though I disagree with the verdict, I still have the utmost respect for the men who wear the label, "moderator." It was out of respect for them that I agreed to pull the banner, rather than drag it out in public, besmirch the reputation of this forum and ultimately still have it forced on me.

Carotio
12-12-2007, 03:36 PM
Well, I too have had my difficulties about this issue, and I'll try to be so diplomatic in my comment here as possible.

I have tried in both a sarcastic way (the GWX2.0 poster thread) and tried to put arguements up against eachother, publically and by PM, to whether this is a right decision or not!

I disagree about the decision after consulting these pages:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_speech
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_thought
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Declaration_of_Human_Rights
from which I liked these sentences:
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
"If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear."
"Goebbels was in favor of free speech for views he liked. So was Stalin. If you're in favor of free speech, then you're in favor of freedom of speech precisely for views you despise. Otherwise, you're not in favor of free speech."

What I wanted to say about this?
Well, most of us despise nazism (so I hope), but if anyone wants to use nazi symbols, which may seem as bad taste to some, then in most countries (except Germany) he/she has the right to do so! And that's it! My reason for writing before! A fight for the RIGHT! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

HOWEVER, as K61 then pointed out here at the end of this thread, this ubi forum is a PRIVATE forum owned not by its users but by a company, who is assisted by moderators to set some rules for the conduct on the forum!

Some of us may dislike that a minority have the right to enforce rules for a majority, but if that is the policy of the forum owner, we'll have to accept it, and that I will do henceforth!

But please don't warn about silencing off any members, who try to make arguements against the newly set rules, because that is truely censorship! Some of us have been here so long that we have been used to another atmosphere, and changing that "overnight" would ultimately lead to protests, no doubt! If people are heard, from both sides, any conflict will ultimately also lead to a settlement. This settlement however seems to have been made for us by the forum owner, and then that's it! We must accept it! So I have said my last thing about this issue, so VG you won't get an answer to the PM.

CONCLUSION (the most important, which you can reply to)
The decision has been made for us by the forum owner, and we must accept it, whether we like it or not, and then that's the end of the story for me!