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View Full Version : Damagprofile comparison G6,A4,D9 vs P47 IX and Tempest



zugfuhrer
02-12-2006, 04:48 AM
I hosted a dogfight game and a friend and me tested the damage profile of these aircrafts.
Crimea map full realism except speed bar and 50% fuel.

We landed on a neutral airfield and the fighter turned its six o€clock at either a HE-111, either a SBD-5 1943.

I was the rear- nose gunner and my friend placed his a/c in position approximately 100 m away. After every shooting the gunner checked how many hits he scored.

As far as I know the He-111 got a 20 mm in its nose, and the DB got two .50 cal in rear gunner place.


He-111 vs P-47 19PK /22bad smoking engine /16 wing collapse.
He-111 vs Spit 9 burn/6 burn/17 burn
He-111 vs Tempest 17PK/21 ac destroyed(Fireball)/12 ac destroyed(Fireball).

SBD-5 vs G6 (2) smeared screen 5 burning bad fireball after some seconds/3 PK /7 ac destroyed(Fireball)
SBD-5 vs A4 (2) fuel leak, 5 wingtip shoot off / 5 PK/ (3)fuel leak 11 ac destroyed (fireball)
SBD-5 vs D9 4PK/(3) fuel leak 7 wingtip fell off/ 11 aircraft destroyed(fireball).
Any done anything that shows the same or a different result?

zugfuhrer
02-12-2006, 04:48 AM
I hosted a dogfight game and a friend and me tested the damage profile of these aircrafts.
Crimea map full realism except speed bar and 50% fuel.

We landed on a neutral airfield and the fighter turned its six o€clock at either a HE-111, either a SBD-5 1943.

I was the rear- nose gunner and my friend placed his a/c in position approximately 100 m away. After every shooting the gunner checked how many hits he scored.

As far as I know the He-111 got a 20 mm in its nose, and the DB got two .50 cal in rear gunner place.


He-111 vs P-47 19PK /22bad smoking engine /16 wing collapse.
He-111 vs Spit 9 burn/6 burn/17 burn
He-111 vs Tempest 17PK/21 ac destroyed(Fireball)/12 ac destroyed(Fireball).

SBD-5 vs G6 (2) smeared screen 5 burning bad fireball after some seconds/3 PK /7 ac destroyed(Fireball)
SBD-5 vs A4 (2) fuel leak, 5 wingtip shoot off / 5 PK/ (3)fuel leak 11 ac destroyed (fireball)
SBD-5 vs D9 4PK/(3) fuel leak 7 wingtip fell off/ 11 aircraft destroyed(fireball).
Any done anything that shows the same or a different result?

zugfuhrer
02-12-2006, 12:39 PM
These figures says, the spit can take more damage than the FW-190, The tempest can take more damage than the spit, and most fragile is the Me-109.
Why give the aircraft in this game, names from aircraft that has excist, the figures dont corespond with the aircrafts they are supposed to be like.

The-Pizza-Man
02-12-2006, 03:33 PM
How is it that you can compare the damage done by a 20mm cannon with that of a pair of .50s? Do the test again using the same gun to shoot down all the aircraft.

p1ngu666
02-12-2006, 03:59 PM
indeed
it has .30cals too.

b25 has 50cals all round, a american wet dream http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif.

it also depends where u shoot the aircraft too..

VW-IceFire
02-12-2006, 04:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by zugfuhrer:
These figures says, the spit can take more damage than the FW-190, The tempest can take more damage than the spit, and most fragile is the Me-109.
Why give the aircraft in this game, names from aircraft that has excist, the figures dont corespond with the aircrafts they are supposed to be like. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Also depends alot on where the bullets strike in the DM. The 109 is far better protected from a 6 o'clock attack from an enemy fighter than a frontal attack on a well armed bomber.

zugfuhrer
02-13-2006, 03:29 PM
What do you mean? Two hits from behind with a .50 cal MG on the Me-109 made the windshield was smeared with oil, is that better protection what is worse? Should a close miss from the MG smeare the windshield if it was fired on from dead ahead?

And what is better protected from behind attacks the pilot?, The engine?, The controls?

Lets face the facts, the FW A4, D9 and Me-109G6 are deliberate made weaker, more powerless, and not as good as the P-47, Spit IX and Tempest.
I think that there are some characteristics that is impossible to combine in the flightmodel.

The spit got the same construction as the Me-109 but the Merlin is not near as fragile as the German engine.

I choose the 20mm gun at the He-111 because the 7.9 MG is to weak and it would be nice to compare the damage from the .50 and 20mm, and this test was not planned. I had to land on the neutral airfield because of flakdamage and the ide of this test came upon my mind, so we did.
Whe didnt fly, whe where on ground, perhaps someone want to do this test flying, but the ai-gunners is hard to control, unless there is a coop mission with human gunners in all the plane.

The figures (2) tells that two hits in the enemy a/c.

And notice that the Allied a/c where shoot at by a 20mm cannon, and the Axis fighter was shoot at by a 12.5 mm mashinegun.

If anybody who disagree with my conclusions have the guts to host an online server for a test, I will be happy to cooperate testing whatever you want to test.

If you are an average pilot and wants to beat the red side in this game hunt in packs, because in general the spit, Tempest, P-47 is superior to the FW A4, D9 and Me-109G6 in so many for air-fight important characteristics.

Nubarus
02-13-2006, 03:38 PM
What's that?

The Merlin engine is not nearly as fragile as the German engine?

Are we really playing the same game here?

The Spitfire's glass yaw is the friggin Merlin.

One little tiny light MG bullet can set it on fire and if it's not on fire it's either over revving or squicking with the usual severe power loss.

zugfuhrer
02-13-2006, 03:44 PM
Nubarus I suspected this and the test showed the thruth.
The damagemodel has made the Me-engine fragile on purpose.
Yes whe are playing the same game, but a inline engine is not as fragile as another.
I qoute Hog-Farm "All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others"

Kocur_
02-13-2006, 03:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nubarus:
What's that?

The Merlin engine is not nearly as fragile as the German engine?

Are we really playing the same game here?

The Spitfire's glass yaw is the friggin Merlin.

One little tiny light MG bullet can set it on fire and if it's not on fire it's either over revving or squicking with the usual severe power loss. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And looking from other side I keep seeing Spitfires with trail of dark smoke yet flying and flying... If you want to try a fragile Merlin, try flying P-51.

Nubarus
02-13-2006, 03:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by zugfuhrer:
Nubarus I suspected this and the test showed the thruth.
The damagemodel has made the Me-engine fragile on purpose. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Strong words there matey.
So you know for a fact that the design team crippled your beloved Me-engine on purpose just to wind you up.

You have a very impressive information network.

zugfuhrer
02-13-2006, 04:03 PM
I have no fact given to me from UBI but I cant make any other conclusions from my figures.

The fact that the Me-engine smeares the windscreen with oil more frequent than other aircrafts is old and it is not fixed.

The FW lost its revi-sight very often before, this is corrected now.
So the glass-engine is not corrected because that is the way UBI wants it to be.
That dont needs a information network. If you want to host a dogfight game and make your own opinion.

Lordbutter4
02-13-2006, 04:28 PM
From my own in game experiences I have to say i dont agree..Before anyone labels me a Blue/Red player realize i fly both sides equally.


Damage on 47's seems alittle high. Ive flown in them and against them, and it seems they are too easy to bring down. From a dead 6 (im flying a fw a-5) i hit with 1 20mm round. Wing immediately comes off. I know that shouldnt of been a kill for me. Also ive been flamed and flamed more 47's then i have 109's. Again, personal experience makes me believe 47's are too easy to kill.

G-6 seems to be fine. I


Fw's seem to be fine as well. I wouldnt imagine a lone 20mm hit would bring down a Fw, but a good burst to a vital should. That seems about right.

D-9...never fly it..Cant make a judgement. Although i do bring alot of them down..seems to take same damage as fw.

Tempests..Maybe its just me. I flame these things constantly. I dont have much experience flying one or really against them in Mp. In QCM however 5/10 times i send them down on fire.

Not to start a flame war, but I do really feel the german 20mm are hitting much to hard. Ive seen planes drop from 1 single 20mm hit to the rear. Its almost funny sometimes.

Kocur_
02-13-2006, 04:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Not to start a flame war, but I do really feel the german 20mm are hitting much to hard. Ive seen planes drop from 1 single 20mm hit to the rear. Its almost funny sometimes. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And as long as its SOMETIMES its fine. There should be and is randomness of guns effectiveness. Also that 1 hit could be Minnengeschoss, i.e. like 5-7 times more powerful than other MG-151/20 or MG FFM projectiles.

Lordbutter4
02-13-2006, 10:01 PM
I wouldnt say its 7x more effective, even for the fabeled Minnengeschoss rounds. In some instances the german guns are just hitting much to hard(again, my experiences). German 20mm almost always kill in 1 hit. In this fashion they feel more like 30mm then 20. I consider a g-2 to have a harder hitting armament then a 2 20mm e model. Also harder hitting then any allied 20mm or even any other axis. When i fire a german 20mm, its almost always going to affect the enemy plane in some manner (controls, damage, split). Thats usually with just 1 20mm hit.

Ill give another example. On spits vs 109's im flying a stuka with 2 20mm. I come down on an A-20, he starts to outspeed me. I fire a long range prayer (about 350) which is past my convergence. 1 round misses, while the 2nd round hits the rear right wing. A-20 looses its wing.

Hristo_
02-13-2006, 10:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lordbutter4:
Not to start a flame war, but I do really feel the german 20mm are hitting much to hard. Ive seen planes drop from 1 single 20mm hit to the rear. Its almost funny sometimes. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have never seen it - absolutely never. And I play this game for years. Even after MG loadout was corrected, the least amount it took for me to down a fighter was 2-3 20mm shells. And I fly nothing but Luftwaffe planes.

If you post track or another proof, then we can go back to this subject.

Xiolablu3
02-14-2006, 12:07 AM
There is NO way that the SPitfire model is tougher than the FW190, NO CHANCE.

I have played this game constantly for around 3 months now and the Me109 and Spitfire take around the same amount of damage to bring them down.

The FW190 and La5/7 , Lagg3 are much tougher.

Xiolablu3
02-14-2006, 12:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by zugfuhrer:
I have no fact given to me from UBI but I cant make any other conclusions from my figures.

The fact that the Me-engine smeares the windscreen with oil more frequent than other aircrafts is old and it is not fixed.

. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>



You dont mention the Spitfire speed governer being hit which doesnt happen to any German plane.

The Spitfires AND P51 engine get taken out often from 1 hit by the 7.62 gunner on Heinkels or me110's.

ALL the planes have different damage quirks, which make them harder to fly when damaged. They either loose power/get oil on screen/hole in wing makes them unstable or something else.

The ideal thing to do would be to have all the different damages on every plane but it would mean so much more programming.

JG4_Helofly
02-14-2006, 03:33 AM
http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/4598/190vunerabilityadj6po.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/5914/190vunerability2adj5ii.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

the Engine of the fw 190 is much to weak in the game!

ImpStarDuece
02-14-2006, 03:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hristo_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lordbutter4:
Not to start a flame war, but I do really feel the german 20mm are hitting much to hard. Ive seen planes drop from 1 single 20mm hit to the rear. Its almost funny sometimes. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have never seen it - absolutely never. And I play this game for years. Even after MG loadout was corrected, the least amount it took for me to down a fighter was 2-3 20mm shells. And I fly nothing but Luftwaffe planes.

If you post track or another proof, then we can go back to this subject. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I cut a P-47D in half yesterday, offline, with a single long range MG round from a MG 151/20 whilst flying a FW-190A.

I know it was a single round because I was flying with Arcade = 1 and it was the only round that hit the target. It was the first shot i had taken at the p-47 as well. I even took a screen shot. I'd post it, but I don't have anything that can view TGA files on my laptop.

I'm not saying that its a common event. In fact, I could probably never do it again if I tried. But it does happen from time to time.

Manuel29
02-14-2006, 04:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hristo_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lordbutter4:
Not to start a flame war, but I do really feel the german 20mm are hitting much to hard. Ive seen planes drop from 1 single 20mm hit to the rear. Its almost funny sometimes. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have never seen it - absolutely never. And I play this game for years. Even after MG loadout was corrected, the least amount it took for me to down a fighter was 2-3 20mm shells. And I fly nothing but Luftwaffe planes.

If you post track or another proof, then we can go back to this subject. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wish this could happen to me when I fly Axis... maybe it's just luck: more than once I need to make multiple BnZ to bring down one Spit with Bf109 G6 (hitting it every time, of course)... the result is another Spit comes on my 6. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Sometimes this happens flying FW too: the hitted Spit stalls after my boom and when I look rear the Spit is flying normally. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Be sure this usually doesn't happen: I think that to bring down every plane pilots needs to be lucky too. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Bye

Edit: of course, one time I snap a wing from a B-25 with only a burst flying a Bf109-F4 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

anarchy52
02-14-2006, 04:45 AM
Screenshots arent worth $h1t if not acompanied by track.

Xiolablu3
02-14-2006, 08:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG4_Helofly:
http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/4598/190vunerabilityadj6po.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/5914/190vunerability2adj5ii.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

the Engine of the fw 190 is much to weak in the game! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is edited. The test is talking about 1 angle of attack, which is edited out of your data.

Please post the data again with all angles of attack included.

I am betting this data is taken from dead 6 where it is almost impossible to see/hit the fuselage/engine and any hits will be at low degrres and deflected off quite easily.

In the game and reallife the engine area is hit from all directions.

Kocur_
02-14-2006, 08:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lordbutter4:

I wouldnt say its 7x more effective, even for the fabeled Minnengeschoss rounds. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, explosive in German 20mm HE weighted 3,6g, incendiary content of API is also calculated as 'power', and explosive in MG - 18g. 18/3,6 = 5 - and more if take API under consideration too.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lordbutter4:German 20mm almost always kill in 1 hit. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


So I understand you can go flying online and present dozens of tracks of that happenenig until tommorrow? I wait impatiently.
I spent last weeks of 3.04 and all the time of 4.xx flying Fw190s most of the time and never it happened to me. I wont complain about anything either: MG151/20 are about fine IMO - online starnge things are a different matter. Hopefully.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I consider a g-2 to have a harder hitting armament then a 2 20mm e model. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Emils:

2 x 480 x [((3 x 700 + 2 x 585)/5)^2 x (3 x 0,092 + 2 x 0,115)/5 x 0,5]= 2 x 480 x 654^2 x 0,1012 x 0,5 = 2 x 480 x 21.642J = 20,776MJ

G2

1 x 700 x [((3 x 800 + 2 x 720)/5)^2 x (3 x 0,092 + 2 x 0,115)/5 x 0,5] = 1 x 700 x 768^2 x 0,1012 x 0,5 = 1 x 700 x 29.845J = 20,891MJ

So in terms of KE armament of G2 was slightly more powerful than Emils (CE is equal)! Add to that fact, that its much easier to achiveve hits with fuselage cannon of high ROF, than with wing cannons of low ROF and there you have it: nothing wrong.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ImpStarDuece:
I cut a P-47D in half yesterday, offline, with a single long range MG round from a MG 151/20 whilst flying a FW-190A.

I know it was a single round because I was flying with Arcade = 1 and it was the only round that hit the target. It was the first shot i had taken at the p-47 as well. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yup, anomalies happen, just like IRL. Anomalies happen also online, sometimes even in positive meaning (yet rarely). Belive or not but it happened to me in 334th server Balaton map to cut a Dora fuselage in half with short burst from Mustang Mk.III from like 350m! We both were so surprised http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Xiolablu3
02-14-2006, 08:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hristo_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lordbutter4:
Not to start a flame war, but I do really feel the german 20mm are hitting much to hard. Ive seen planes drop from 1 single 20mm hit to the rear. Its almost funny sometimes. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have never seen it - absolutely never. And I play this game for years. Even after MG loadout was corrected, the least amount it took for me to down a fighter was 2-3 20mm shells. And I fly nothing but Luftwaffe planes.

If you post track or another proof, then we can go back to this subject. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have been flying equal sides and cant remember seeing this before. Yes one 20mm hit can damage controls and if you are heading towards the ground you cant pull up, but I have never hit a plane just once and seen it destoyed, nor have I been hit once and been destroyed and there cant be many people who have more playing time on 4.02 and 4.03 than me. (I started playing a lot online just as 4.02 was released)

You must remember that a FW190 is often hitting with 4x20mm (plus the 2xMG) at once which rips targets apart. The Spitfire Vc4 does the same, I have ripped 110's (which are hard to bring down in a normal Spitfire with 2x20mm) to bits with that Spitfire, so its not just the MG151.

zugfuhrer
02-14-2006, 01:12 PM
That table is very interesting. Is it only for the FW-190? 5% chance that a hit from a 20mm HE is effective when it hit a tank, and all hits in the engine compartment is deflected away. 30 hits from a 20mm HE or HEI to get a 80-100% chance of lehtal damge in an astearn siluette hmmmmm........
The tanks wont set to fire by a .50 fire....

I wounder if this is the way it is in the game.

You guys are talking about a single occasion, or a general feeling what happend one time, and it was so odd that you remember it.
I can line houndreds of occasion taken from trackfiles, three hits with a Me-262 on a P-47 without no effect etc etc.
Let go scientific and make a test with controllable parameters. Host a dogfight game tell me what you want to test and we test it 25 times if you want to.

I think that there is random method in this game, that gives "luck" when you get a favour randomized number.

Xiolablu3
02-14-2006, 01:18 PM
There is a prescribed method for testing the guns Zuhg. Ask one oft he testing veterans how they do it.

I thinkt he general idea is to shoot at friendly aircraft so that they dont avoid too much and have arcade mode on so that you can test the hits. There is much more to it tho and you need to speak to one of the veteran testers for absolute same conditions.

I remember JTD did a weapons test over 100kills using each 20mm cannon in the game and the MG151 came out strongest requiring the least amount of hits per kill.

The Hipano was next and the Russian cannon came out last.

p1ngu666
02-14-2006, 02:17 PM
mg151/20 is probably best cannon in the game

i just shot down 6 mig3's with a g2 with surprising ease. still had a fair amount of cannon ammo when i landed.

from all my flying, both axis and allied (been flying 190s alot) mg151 hurts alot.

JG4_Helofly
02-14-2006, 02:27 PM
But is it realy possible to talk about damagprofile or gun effectivness? The DM we have now is simply not precise enough to say something precise about damage.
I would wait for tbob and than continue the disscusion.
What do you mean?

Manuel29
02-14-2006, 03:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG4_Helofly:
But is it realy possible to talk about damagprofile or gun effectivness? The DM we have now is simply not precise enough to say something precise about damage.
I would wait for tbob and than continue the disscusion.
What do you mean? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wait BoB for this and a lots of other things... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif