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249th_Harrier
11-01-2005, 05:16 AM
This is a cut and paste from the Wikipedia entry for Pokryshkin. It states what I have long suspected, that the Soviets used the p-63 in the eastern front, then covered it up for political reasons. Is this just conjecture, or is there any proof?

QUOTE
Pokryshkin and his regiment have repeatedly been asked to convert to new Soviet fighters such as the La-5 and Alexander Sergeyevich Yakovlev's Yak fighter series. However Pokryshkin found La-5's firepower insufficient and personally disliked Yakovlev so he never did.
Finally in 1944 he found an aircraft that he was willing to convert to, Lavochkin La-7. Unfortunately one of his close friends, Soviet 50-kill (31 personal and 19 group ) ace Alexander Klubov was killed in a landing mishap while converting to the La-7. The crash was blamed on the malfunction of the plane's hydraulic system. Pokryshkin subsequently cancelled his regiment's conversion, and there are multiple reports that they instead began flying Bell P-63 Supercobras. By the lend-lease agreement with United States the Soviet Union was not allowed to use P-63s against Germany; they were given only to be used in the eventual battle with Japan. Thus it is quite understandable that no mention of this appears in any official records. However personal accounts of German pilots and flak crewmen who encountered P-63s in the skies of Eastern Prussia as well as the memoirs of one of the pilots in Pokryshkin's squadron appear to confirm that fact.
UNQUOTE

249th_Harrier
11-01-2005, 05:16 AM
This is a cut and paste from the Wikipedia entry for Pokryshkin. It states what I have long suspected, that the Soviets used the p-63 in the eastern front, then covered it up for political reasons. Is this just conjecture, or is there any proof?

QUOTE
Pokryshkin and his regiment have repeatedly been asked to convert to new Soviet fighters such as the La-5 and Alexander Sergeyevich Yakovlev's Yak fighter series. However Pokryshkin found La-5's firepower insufficient and personally disliked Yakovlev so he never did.
Finally in 1944 he found an aircraft that he was willing to convert to, Lavochkin La-7. Unfortunately one of his close friends, Soviet 50-kill (31 personal and 19 group ) ace Alexander Klubov was killed in a landing mishap while converting to the La-7. The crash was blamed on the malfunction of the plane's hydraulic system. Pokryshkin subsequently cancelled his regiment's conversion, and there are multiple reports that they instead began flying Bell P-63 Supercobras. By the lend-lease agreement with United States the Soviet Union was not allowed to use P-63s against Germany; they were given only to be used in the eventual battle with Japan. Thus it is quite understandable that no mention of this appears in any official records. However personal accounts of German pilots and flak crewmen who encountered P-63s in the skies of Eastern Prussia as well as the memoirs of one of the pilots in Pokryshkin's squadron appear to confirm that fact.
UNQUOTE

alert_1
11-01-2005, 06:09 AM
LaGGs won the war, be sure! Every red online ace is flying them, so I dont think that real VVS aces wouldnt http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

BGs_Ricky
11-01-2005, 06:39 AM
Why did the lend-lease contract stipulate that they shouldn't use the P-63 against Germany ?? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Just curious...

horseback
11-01-2005, 09:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BGs_Ricky:
Why did the lend-lease contract stipulate that they shouldn't use the P-63 against Germany ?? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Just curious... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Japan and the Soviet Union were not at war until well after VE Day (May 8 1945); in fact, although it was surely coincidental, the Soviet Union did not declare war on the Empire of Japan until the day after the Hiroshima A-Bomb was dropped. FDR, Churchill and Truman did everything they could to get Stalin into the fight against Japan, and the P-63 Lend Lease requirement was undoubtedly part of the arm-twisting.

cheers

horseback

BGs_Ricky
11-01-2005, 09:45 AM
Ok, thanks http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Jaws2002
11-01-2005, 10:15 AM
I read a testimony of some experienced German flak crew that engaged the P-63 sometime in 1945.

jimDG
11-01-2005, 10:22 AM
I didnt know that p63 use on the eastern front was a secret http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. Official soviet ww2 history mentions nothing about such agreements on p63 use.

Stackhouse25th
11-01-2005, 10:25 AM
P63 is a nice fighter...not as good as the P39, but it could carry bombs

Kuna15
11-01-2005, 12:12 PM
If it wasn't for that unfortunate LA-7 accident, I think the 16.GvIAP (I think that was the regiment in question) would be flying them. Many pilots from other regular and guard regiments were flying them with great successes against the Luftwaffe, including allied 'ace of aces' I Kozhedub...

leeG727
11-01-2005, 05:27 PM
I haven€t seen anything where the P-63 was limited in where it could be used. It was just late to the dance. It was an excellent performer, essentially custom built for export matched to Soviet operational needs. The United States didn€t warm to it because of its limited range.

Tooz_69GIAP
11-01-2005, 06:51 PM
Erm...as far as I am aware, Bell produced around 3,300-odd P-63s, and around 2,500-odd or more went to the USSR. I've never heard of it being used as any kind of bribe or persuasion for Stalin to go to war with Japan. Not saying it isn't true, but I've never heard it before.

Gibbage1
11-01-2005, 07:00 PM
When I was modeling the P-63, Oleg sent me a pilot report of a Russian getting shot down over Germany in a P-63. That pilot escaped capture, got into an He-111 and took off and landed on a Russian air base! The He-111 had two V-1's slung under the wings and the Russians studied the two buzz bombs. Yes, they were used, but not "officialy".

VW-IceFire
11-01-2005, 07:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by leeG727:
I haven€t seen anything where the P-63 was limited in where it could be used. It was just late to the dance. It was an excellent performer, essentially custom built for export matched to Soviet operational needs. The United States didn€t warm to it because of its limited range. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ironically enough, the P-63 had ample range compared to its Russian counterparts. I have read that the P-63 was used on the Eastern Front to undertake deep penetration strikes and combat patrols because of its range potential.

Also, it could carry 3 drop tanks (or at least you can in the game) which is a substantial fuel load. The P-63C is one of those small numbers of aircraft I'm willing to take into a server with 25% fuel (joining the P-51, P-47, F4U and P-38).

The USAAF didn't warm to it because they already had 3 main fighters being supported in its ranks and the P-63C offered nothing they couldn't already get from the Mustang. You are right, its range is not the Mustang's...but in the case of the Soviet Air Force...it was very long range http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Enforcer572005
11-01-2005, 09:26 PM
the limiitation thingy makes no sense....the soviets were directly involved in the developement, and there are many accounts of its use agianst the germans. i recently saw a photo somewhere (in one of my books i think) of some destroyed P63s caught on the ground by german bombers.

it was far superior to the 39, comparable to the 51 at low altitude. certainly better than the P40N that some USAAF units were still saddled wiht at the end of the war.

Ruy Horta
11-02-2005, 01:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gibbage1:
When I was modeling the P-63, Oleg sent me a pilot report of a Russian getting shot down over Germany in a P-63. That pilot escaped capture, got into an He-111 and took off and landed on a Russian air base! The He-111 had two V-1's slung under the wings and the Russians studied the two buzz bombs. Yes, they were used, but not "officialy". </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Can you put a name and a date to that report (events)?

It would be great if you could add geographical locations! Perhaps even the WNr of the He 111?!

Would be a nice subject to investigate further.

Gibbage1
11-02-2005, 02:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ruy Horta:

Can you put a name and a date to that report (events)?

It would be great if you could add geographical locations! Perhaps even the WNr of the He 111?!

Would be a nice subject to investigate further. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry it took so long. Had to search through a few (410) E-mails from Oleg. This is all he sent me.

"The Russian pilot that captured He-111 with V-1 and escaped from the German prison was shot down on P-63C near Koeniosberg and captured by German troops (modern Kaliningrad). Last year in German was TV film about this story.
This pilot still alive."

Only thing to go off of is Koeniosberg. Good luck and post if you find anything!

Badsight.
11-02-2005, 02:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Stackhouse25th:
P63 is a nice fighter...not as good as the P39 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>over 3300 P-63s were made and roughly 3000 went to the russians

the speed of the 63 makes it a more dominant E-fighter over the P-39 any model

in fact it can almost match Hayates at E-Fighting , if the 63 had a 20mm in the nose its useage online would soar 1000% , no exageration

Ruy Horta
11-02-2005, 08:42 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gibbage1:
Sorry it took so long. Had to search through a few (410) E-mails from Oleg. This is all he sent me.

"The Russian pilot that captured He-111 with V-1 and escaped from the German prison was shot down on P-63C near Koeniosberg and captured by German troops (modern Kaliningrad). Last year in German was TV film about this story.
This pilot still alive."

Only thing to go off of is Koeniosberg. Good luck and post if you find anything! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Already happy to establish a number of details.

Thank you Gibbage!

249th_Harrier
11-02-2005, 03:40 PM
I can't find the link now, but it seems the story about the POWs escaping on an He-111 true. The group of POWs only had one pilot, who was a p-39 jock in Pokryshkin's fighter group. Of course, when they landed, they went straight to the gulag along with the rest of the former POWs (Stalin sure had a fine way to show his appreciation!). The guy seems to be pretty famous in Russia and wrote a book about it. Seems like a good hollywood storyline.

However, I was not able to find any reference to the p-63 in the ETO. After re-readig the Wikipedia article closer, the author seems to be hedging a lot, there are no official reports or photo evidence. There seems to be a few stories from former German flak gunners, but since they often shot down their own planes this does not seem to be a reliable source. The Wikipedia author also mentions a memoir from a former VVS pilot from Pokryshkin's group published in the 90's, who says that p-63s flew in the ETO, but the name is not given. Does anyone know who this would be?

Kocur_
11-02-2005, 03:52 PM
Cant find it now, but I have a book by this guy called "Escape from Usedom island". And yes: while he was interrogated in hospital he tried not to say what plane he flew and finally LW officer said something like "C'mon I saw your Kingcobra going down anyway". The pilot was prisoner in camp near Peenemunde, where he saw "propless planes" and some other experimental stuff, but He-111 he and others kidnapped didnt have V-1 under the wing at the momenthttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
He spent some time in Gulag like all soviet soldiers who were "liberated" from German captivity, but luckily survived ...

Zyzbot
11-02-2005, 06:49 PM
I found this info:


19:02 2002-11-25
Legendary pilot Mikhail Devyataev deceases in Kazan

Famed pilot Mikhail Devyataev, 85, Hero of the Soviet Union, has died in Kazan. In 1945 he escaped from a Nazi concentration camp in an enemy aircraft.

Mikhail Devyataev was born on July 8, 1917 in Torbeevo, a worker settlement in Mordovia and was the 13th child in a large family. Before the Great Patriotic War (1941-1945) he graduated from the Kazan river transport technical secondary school as navigator. Coincidentally, he got training at the Kazan amateur flying school and in two years received a diploma from the Orenburg military pilots air school.

From the first days of the war the young pilot took part in the action, was flight commander in a fighter air regiment, made 180 sorties, downed 9 enemy planes personally and 16 in air battles, was wounded two times.

In an aerial combat above Lvov on July 13, 1944, Mikhail was shot down. He bailed out from the flaming plane and was taken prisoner. Kept in several Nazi concentration camps, such as the notorious Sachsenhausen, Devyataev eventually got into the Usedom island, where V-1 and V-2 rocket bombs were produced and tested. The prisoner workforce was doomed.

In February 1945, together with ten other prisoners, Mikhail seized a Heinkel aircraft and escaped on it from the " island of death ". . The ex-prisoners crossed the front line and passed to the Soviet command strategic information on the top-secret Usedom production facility.

In the Soviet Union this unprecedented heroic feat was not duly valued. Mikhail Devyataev and the other participants in the escape got under a repressive action as ex-prisoners.

In 1957, thanks to the intervention of Sergei Korolev, famed designer of spaceships, Mikhail Devyataev and his associates were rehabilitated. Mikhail got the Hero of the Soviet Union title.

Until his last days, he lived in Kazan, capital of Tatarstan, on the Volga. He was captain of the river fleet, in charge of the crews of the first-ever Russian air-cushioned ships Raketa-001 and Meteor-002.

Mikhail Devyataev will be buried on the Arskoe veteran memorial cemetery in Kazan

Frequent_Flyer
11-02-2005, 07:54 PM
A total of twenty-nine P-63 Kingcobra aircraft arrived with the regiments of the 9th guards Fighter division and played an active role in the destruction of encircled German elements at Frankfurt-Gubensk grouping in April 1945. These Kingcobras were received from the 6th Reserve Avaiation Brigade.

Gibbage1
11-02-2005, 08:51 PM
Very interesting thread. One of the few in a long time! Good info all around!

Its strange that the capture of the He-111 is rather well documented and well known, but the aircraft the pilot is NOT documented. IF there were restrictions on the P-63 to NOT be used vs Germany, then that will explain why that info is stricken from many accounts.

Its SHOCKING that Mikhail's reward for capturing an He-111 and returning with very vital information is many years in the Gulag!!! Can anyone explain to me why they would do such things? I think Stalins insanity had a great deal to do with it, but thats just CRAZY!!!

Kocur_
11-03-2005, 04:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gibbage1:

Its SHOCKING that Mikhail's reward for capturing an He-111 and returning with very vital information is many years in the Gulag!!! Can anyone explain to me why they would do such things? I think Stalins insanity had a great deal to do with it, but thats just CRAZY!!! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There was article in soviet military criminal code, by which giving up and becoming POW was an act of treason.
Btw. current Russian military criminal code has similar article...

There are more interseting things about WW2 and the way human dignity was treated in Soviet Union: thousands of decorations were never given to soldiers who received them, bodies of millions of soldiers who fell in battles were never collected and buried after the war, hundrets of thousands of soldiers who were heavily wounded and crippled were sent to Siberia of Khazakhstan...they spoiled picture of glorious and victorious "The First State of Workers and Farmers", land of social justice and a country where one can breath as freely as nowhere else...

Right after WW2 there were two new articles defining two new crimes in soviet criminal code, cant remeber numbers of articles, but those were "Praising of American democracy" and "Praising of American technology" So if you said loudly "Hey! This Studebacker is a nice truck" you could have been sentenced to "a quarter". A quarter of century in Gulag.

Anyone who wishes to know anything on Soviet Union MUST read "The Gulag Archipelago" by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn. Its not just Stalin. All that madness was started already in 1917 by Lenin, Trotsky, Dzierzhynski...