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Monson74
03-20-2006, 01:41 AM
Hi Oleg,

Shouldn't the MK108 be available for the Bf109 G6_Late only? Many sources claim that this weapon wasn't produced in quantity before late '43. I take it that the regular Bf109 G6 in the game is the version that reached front line units in February '43 while the "_Late" is the modification produced in autumn '43 & early '44.

Monson74
03-20-2006, 01:41 AM
Hi Oleg,

Shouldn't the MK108 be available for the Bf109 G6_Late only? Many sources claim that this weapon wasn't produced in quantity before late '43. I take it that the regular Bf109 G6 in the game is the version that reached front line units in February '43 while the "_Late" is the modification produced in autumn '43 & early '44.

Xiolablu3
03-20-2006, 02:30 AM
YOu can limit planes armament now using Gennadich Server COmmander, many servers use this to limit Mk108 on early 109's/190's/110's

Its up to the server admin to implement it.

3.JG51_Stecher
03-20-2006, 02:41 AM
The G-6's MK108 option should be historically relevant for any scenario during or after the Summer of 1943. WNF started delivering 108 equipped G-6s as part of the 20000-20800 Werknummer block, which ran from June-August 1943. This is well before the "Late" G-6 in the game, which reflects various changes made to the G-6. The last major one being the taller tail unit in the beginning of 1944. The Erla Hood preceeded it at the end of 1943, but that was still months after they began building the 108s into many of them.

ElAurens
03-20-2006, 05:44 AM
The real problem is the percentage of aircraft that have it. At least online. IRL the MK 108 equipped aircraft represented only a small number of each squadron.

JG53Frankyboy
03-20-2006, 06:15 AM
thats the happiness of COOP mission playing/building ! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Monson74
03-20-2006, 06:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
YOu can limit planes armament now using Gennadich Server COmmander, many servers use this to limit Mk108 on early 109's/190's/110's

Its up to the server admin to implement it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is there any way to do this without this software - a line in the mission-file or something?

JG53Frankyboy
03-20-2006, 06:21 AM
only in COOP/sinlge play missions - not dogfight maps.

and btw im still more concerned about that the G14 has no MG151/20 option as nosegun http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
so, to avoid late war MK108 you have to use the G6/AS in the missions http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

&lt;- already very dead horse, i know http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

butch2k
03-20-2006, 06:42 AM
G-6/U4
Produced 1943 : 181
01/1944 : 119
02/1944 : 51
03/1944 : 303
04/1944 : 404
05/1944 : 118
06/1944 : 144
07/1944 : 240
08/1944 : 49
09/1944 : 55
10/1944 : 14

Xiolablu3
03-20-2006, 06:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
only in COOP/sinlge play missions - not dogfight maps.

and btw im still more concerned about that the G14 has no MG151/20 option as nosegun http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
so, to avoid late war MK108 you have to use the G6/AS in the missions http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif


&lt;- already very dead horse, i know http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


But mate, the G6 AS is basically a G14 A/S and has almost K4 performance, better than G10 or G14. (You know the G14 number is misleading dont you?) If there is a G6A/S there and you like the 20mm then use it! Its a fantastic plane, not nose heavy like the G10 or K4 either.

butch2k
03-20-2006, 06:44 AM
Th JG 11 got the preseries G-6/U4 in mid August 1943 and some were delivered to JG 52 as well a bit earlier .

JG53Frankyboy
03-20-2006, 06:46 AM
sure, the G6/AS is one of the best 109s , if not the best.............. but it was realy not the "bread and butter" plane of the LW from late44 to the end.

i have historical , coop based online wars in mind thinking about that "proplem" - no dogfight servers , wich i care very less.

Buzzsaw-
03-20-2006, 09:29 AM
Salute

Pay attention to the numbers Butch2k posted.

In 1943, only 181 109G's with 30mm manufactured.

Then remember there were 6013 109G's produced in 1943.

That means only 3% of the 109's produced in 1943 had 30mm cannon...

So you can see these planes were EXTREMELY rare.

Even in 1944, the number of G6's with 30mm was small compared to total G6's manufactured.

Only 1487 shown with 30mm.

If I remember correctly there were over 5,000 G6's manufactured in 1944. (does someone have correct figure?)

csThor
03-20-2006, 10:11 AM
Problem here, Buzzsaw:

Is there a number available on the kits distributed to the workshops of the units in the field? I can't imagine that only factory-fresh Gustavs got the Mk 108. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

HayateAce
03-20-2006, 10:37 AM
And yet we can't get 150 octane for allied a/c which was W I D E S P R E A D in use.

Good job 1C.

JG52Karaya-X
03-20-2006, 11:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HayateAce:
And yet we can't get 150 octane for allied a/c which was W I D E S P R E A D in use.

Good job 1C. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Got proof?

So what about the P38L_Late, MarkIII Mustang, P47D_Late, Spit Mk.IX 25lbs boost!? They are all 100/150 octane versions... what else do you want?

Ah yes I know http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

http://www.math.univ-montp2.fr/~mohamadi/dasilvaweb/F22.jpg

PUHHLEASE Oleg, we need it!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif

butch2k
03-20-2006, 11:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by csThor:
Problem here, Buzzsaw:

Is there a number available on the kits distributed to the workshops of the units in the field? I can't imagine that only factory-fresh Gustavs got the Mk 108. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No airframe were modified after production to accomodate the MK108, indeed in the documents i have which list newly built, repaired and modified airframes the /U4 only appear in the Neubau section never in the Umbau nor repair sections.

csThor
03-20-2006, 11:14 AM
Interesting ... thx!

TX-Zen
03-20-2006, 11:28 AM
Thanks for posting the numbers Butch, good info.

Kurfurst__
03-20-2006, 11:33 AM
109 Neubau 1944-45 (no conversions, only brand new airframes). /U4 MK 108 subtypes.
Keep in mind the G-14 pretty much replaced the G6 after mid 1944.


G-6 : 1497
G-14: 654
G-10: 356
'just' 2507 planes in total, plus the 181 produced in 1943. Of course, there's the 1600 109Ks with 'native MK 108 support'. Hell what, a mere 4000 planes, half of which are G-6s and direct G-6 successor.

I say dump it, and then dumb all the planes out of which at least 2000 were not produced.

JG53Frankyboy
03-20-2006, 11:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
.........I say dump it, and then dumb all the planes out of which at least 2000 were not produced. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

hey, i dont want give up "my" beloved italian fighters http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Bogun
03-20-2006, 01:07 PM
Here is my puny attempt to translate part of this page:
http://wunderwaffe.narod.ru/Magazine/AirWar/61/01.htm
related to the development, testing and the beginning of the deployment of MK-108 cannons on Bf109G. Let Butch2k tell us how accurate info here is:
------------------------
The prototype of the plane armed with œК 108 cannon appeared in the beginning of the Spring of 1943, also development of the plane have begun at the end of 1942. The exact day of the beginning of the development of Bf 109G-6/U4 impossible to determine due to lack of documentation. Only late stages of creation of the prototype are well documented. From the available data it is clear, that works above machine were conducted in feverish haste, without deep study and testing of changes implemented during development. Therefore, when in the beginning of summer of 1943 first party Me 109G-6/U4 was ready, it took the whole month before testing could start on EStelle test range in Tarnowitz.

The first party of nine œК 108 cannons delivered in Tarnowitz by Rheinmetall-Borsig in May, 1943, was defective. None of the cannons passed preliminary check, and the whole party have returned to the manufacturer. In the middle of June another party from 24 guns has arrived. In July next party of 24 cannons was delivered in Tarnowitz. By July 29 the range already possessed 45 MK 108 cannons. From those guns - 18 again appeared defective and only 13 cannons been determined to be suited to installation on planes. Out of those 13 cannons 5 were tested in Tarnowitz, and the rest was dispatched to other ranges and in fighter units: two in Rechlin, two in JG 11 in Iever, etc. In October 14, one of œК 108 has exploded during trial shooting in Tarnowitz - this fact testifies to quality of the first batches of cannons.

In the meantime, on June 10, 1943 first party Me 109G-6/U4 appeared in Rechlin. Right-a-way aerial shooting trials had began. This stage of tests has ended with failure. In four shooting trials it was possible to make total of 89 shots, in the first flight - 55 rounds been shot, in the fourth - cannon was jammed after the first shot. Shooting done with the test ammunition, because combat ammunition had not been developed yet. Defects in design (bolt guiding rails were too short) were found as the reason of jams. By June 20, necessary changes been done to one of the cannons tests have renewed. As results new aerial shooting trials appeared noticeably better, it was decided to carry out the modifications of the cannons on other planes. Soon the second modification of the cannons followed the first.

It was soon found, that modification was also necessary for the semi-automatic system of the cannon reload mechanism. Simultaneously, it was required to make changes to a design of the plane propeller and it engine's oil system. Similar alteration should be carried out not only with five test planes, but also with other aircraft participating in the test programs on other ranges: Schweringemis (13 aircraft) and EStelle Rechlin (12 aircraft).

First shooting tests with live ammunition has began on Tarnowitz range on July 10. All those problems, which been found at shooting tests with test ammunition have quickly resurfaced. In spite of the fact that was not possible to quickly rectify those problems, in the middle of July available test 109G-6/U4 planes were transferred to JG 11 for the field tests. Those tests were closely watched by experts of Rheinmetall-Borsig and EStelle Tarnowitz facilities. At the end of July JG 11 received only 13 planes, as all aircraft demanded serious alterations, but instead of two planes a day changes were done only to two planes every three days.

Till August 21, 1943 from EStelle Tarnowitz has transferred total of 24 Bf109G-6/U4 to JG 11. One plane was sent to Schtaken for general Galland, who wanted to test the new aircraft personally. Having made some flights, general suggested to install separate triggers (total of three triggers) to have an opportunity to selectively shoot from MG 131 machine guns, underwing MG 151/20 or œК 108 motor-cannon.

In the meantime next batch of six next Bf 109G-6/U4 has arrived in Tarnowitz, belonging to the second series of 30 planes. Though the design of fighters has already been updated in view of the experience received in initial tests, but those new planes still required some alterations. In particular, it was required to replace Revi 12D with Revi 16B sight. In September of 1943 Messerschmitt complied with the wishes of the EStelle Tarnowitz testers.

After all planes of two series have passed alteration, transfer to II./JG 3 began. Till September 18, the gruppe received thirteen /U4 "Messers". Two more planes have been transferred to III./JG 1, one (W.Nr. 20734) was damaged during take-off on October 15, (earlier another plane - W.Nr. 27086 was damaged as well). In the beginning of November 1943, one of the above planes was transferred to II./JG 26.

Serial production of Bf 109G-6/U4 fighters began in the winter of 1944. Firm WNF has become the main manufacturer of the plane. The exact number of the ordered machines isn't known, but the available data suggest that about 200 planes been ordered. That plus 60 planes of two preliminary series, gives approximate number 260 of G-6/U4 fighters.

All planes been sent to units fighting on the Western Front€¦
------------------------

Kocur_
03-20-2006, 02:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Buzzsaw-:
Salute

Pay attention to the numbers Butch2k posted.

In 1943, only 181 109G's with 30mm manufactured.

Then remember there were 6013 109G's produced in 1943.

That means only 3% of the 109's produced in 1943 had 30mm cannon...

So you can see these planes were EXTREMELY rare.

Even in 1944, the number of G6's with 30mm was small compared to total G6's manufactured.

Only 1487 shown with 30mm.

If I remember correctly there were over 5,000 G6's manufactured in 1944. (does someone have correct figure?) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

ONE, SINGLE La-7 with 3 B-20 cannons produced in 1944, how about that? Or Yak-3P produced since april/may 1945, huh?

La7_brook
03-20-2006, 02:19 PM
i have round a 1000 g14/as and 4500 g14 made in 44 /any ider how many g6as were made?

IIJG69_Kartofe
03-20-2006, 03:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HayateAce:
And yet we can't get 150 octane for allied a/c which was W I D E S P R E A D in use.

Good job 1C. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

An advice ... Buy AEP And PF, download the appropriate patches, there is A L O T of new things out since Forgotten Battles! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

ElAurens
03-20-2006, 03:57 PM
Kocur, this discussion is about the U4 version of the Bf109G6.

If you have concerns with the various Russian/Allied aircraft, please be kind enough to start your own thread.

Kocur_
03-20-2006, 04:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ElAurens:
Kocur, this discussion is about the U4 version of the Bf109G6.

If you have concerns with the various Russian/Allied aircraft, please be kind enough to start your own thread. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fair point, but it was just to make it clear, that historical quantity of planes in a year should not be argument against Bf-109G6/U4 in 1943, since Buzzsaw's 181 of 30mm 109s of 1943 is far more than 1 La-7 3 x B-20 of 1944.

3.JG51_Stecher
03-20-2006, 04:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by La7_brook:
i have round a 1000 g14/as and 4500 g14 made in 44 /any ider how many g6as were made? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Beginning in May 1944, 226 G-6/AS built as new. 460 more converted from existing airframes. 686 total. 153 of them being G-6/U4/AS.

Buzzsaw-
03-20-2006, 04:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kocur_:
ONE, SINGLE La-7 with 3 B-20 cannons produced in 1944, how about that? Or Yak-3P produced since april/may 1945, huh? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You don't have to convince me Kocur. I have always argued that aircraft which were manufactured in tiny numbers should be able to be restricted by the game.

The Mig-3U is the first example, and I am on record re. the fact that 6 examples manufactured does not mean we should see them on every online server. (as was the case in the early days of IL-2 when we saw in on all the dogfight servers)

Most of the aircraft listed in the IL-2 objects chart are given in service dates much sooner than they really had. As for example, the P-51B, which only saw first combat in later December '43.

Xiolablu3
03-20-2006, 05:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kocur_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Buzzsaw-:
Salute

Pay attention to the numbers Butch2k posted.

In 1943, only 181 109G's with 30mm manufactured.

Then remember there were 6013 109G's produced in 1943.

That means only 3% of the 109's produced in 1943 had 30mm cannon...

So you can see these planes were EXTREMELY rare.

Even in 1944, the number of G6's with 30mm was small compared to total G6's manufactured.

Only 1487 shown with 30mm.

If I remember correctly there were over 5,000 G6's manufactured in 1944. (does someone have correct figure?) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

ONE, SINGLE La-7 with 3 B-20 cannons produced in 1944, how about that? Or Yak-3P produced since april/may 1945, huh? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This isnt tit for tat, Yak3p should not be on maps before April 1945 and LaB20 limited to a few in early 1945, The Mk108 on 109's was not around in any numbers in 1943.

Its up to the server admins to limit them on maps, or leave them out.

Its still nice to have them in the sim tho, so why complain? The fact is that the option is there now with the lastest Server COmmander to limit numbers of planes, and their armament.

This is already oin progress on Ukdedicated servers and its great. It really makes the team work to keep the best planes safe, We ran out of Zeros the other day on one map and had to use Ki43's against P40's/P39s and Hellcats, it was a nightmare. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Therefore you could limit the Mk108 Bf109's to 3% of the total planes on 2nd half of 1943 maps, or just a few La7B20's in 1945, the rest standar La7's.

A big fault before was the Me110 using a Mk108 cannon in 1942, it can now be restricted so that it cannot use the Mk108.

Ratsack
03-20-2006, 05:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by La7_brook:
i have round a 1000 g14/as and 4500 g14 made in 44 /any ider how many g6as were made? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know, but a complicating factor is that many damaged G-6s were converted to G-6/AS when rebuilt. So, if you're looking at a rebuilt G-6/AS , do you count it in G-6 production, or G-6/AS production?

Ratsack

Ratsack
03-20-2006, 05:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
... Of course, there's the 1600 109Ks... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Kurfurst,

That 1,600 figure is just Prien's extrapolation of late 1944 production rates to 1945. It's not vaguely likely that the Germans could churn out Bf109s in early 1945 at the same rate they did during Oct-Dec 1944.

The solid figure is about 700.

Ratsack

JG53Frankyboy
03-20-2006, 05:54 PM
two things just to remember:
1. the ingame G6/AS is not that G6/AS we are talking here about !
the "real" one of early 1944 was a plane without MW50 boost , with worser performance than a G6Late at low altitude but better perforamnce at high altitude, its DB605AS had full throttle altitude of ~8000m (!) , a DB605a of ~5000m (&lt;- if im wrong, im sure Butch2K can give correct numbers).

2. the mentioned Bf110G2 was first deliverd to combat units january 1943 (!)- the in game date is wrong as that from the P-51B. And with its MK108 armament it appeared around fall 1943 - still few. a very common 1943 modification we havent in game - where 2 MG151/20 replaced the 4xMG17 in nose.


the point of this game is that it is not possible to restrict weapons and planenumbers on dogfight servers (unfortunalty it looks like it became the most used kind of online play http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif -or better it sounds so....) WITHOUT using a 3.party tool.........
that would solve "proplems" with special weapons(not only MK108) or planenumbers (Me262 come in my mind, and sure others) on this kind of servers - especially if they want go a little bit "historical".
i have no hope for the IL2 series in this point anymore - lets look forward to BoB !

Buzzsaw-
03-20-2006, 09:33 PM
Salute

Since we are on the topic of the Mk 108, wonder if someone can answer a question:

I am building a Ploesti campaign, starting in April '44.

Luftwaffe had a 110 Nachtjager group in the Ploesti area, which was used in the daylight to repel the USAAF bombing attacks.

Does anyone know what the Eastern Front 110's were equipped with as far as weapons were concerned? Were they using the Mk 108's or still the additional twin 151/20's in the pod under the nose?

Any help appreciated.

WWMaxGunz
03-21-2006, 12:24 AM
Am I really reading that somehow restricting planes on DF servers will somehow make what
goes on on them... historic or more realistic?

If I take a Merry Go Round and replace the Unicorns and Tigers with Horses then will it
become more real horse riding? Because that is how far DF is removed from ever being a
simulation of what was real, a Merry Go Round compared to horse riding in open country.

The 'pernt' is that side-playing has really gone around the freaking bend. Yuns're nuts.

La7_brook
03-21-2006, 01:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
two things just to remember:
1. the ingame G6/AS is not that G6/AS we are talking here about !
the "real" one of early 1944 was a plane without MW50 boost , with worser performance than a G6Late at low altitude but better perforamnce at high altitude, its DB605AS had full throttle altitude of ~8000m (!) , a DB605a of ~5000m (&lt;- if im wrong, im sure Butch2K can give correct numbers).

2. the mentioned Bf110G2 was first deliverd to combat units january 1943 (!)- the in game date is wrong as that from the P-51B. And with its MK108 armament it appeared around fall 1943 - still few. a very common 1943 modification we havent in game - where 2 MG151/20 replaced the 4xMG17 in nose.


the point of this game is that it is not possible to restrict weapons and planenumbers on dogfight servers (unfortunalty it looks like it became the most used kind of online play http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif -or better it sounds so....) WITHOUT using a 3.party tool.........
that would solve "proplems" with special weapons(not only MK108) or planenumbers (Me262 come in my mind, and sure others) on this kind of servers - especially if they want go a little bit "historical".
i have no hope for the IL2 series in this point anymore - lets look forward to BoB ! </div></BLOCKQUOTE> what was diffences of the RL g14/as and g6as with broost /srry of for been of subjet

Monson74
03-21-2006, 02:02 AM
Well, wouldn't the solution be to either:

1) Remove the MK108 loadout option for the Bf109 G6 & have it only for the "_Late"-version?

2) Enable the restricted loadout feature in DF maps the same way it works in COOPS & Single Player?

JG53Frankyboy
03-21-2006, 04:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by La7_brook:
what was diffences of the RL g14/as and g6as with broost /srry of for been of subjet </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

im not sure if the DB605AS engined 109s, if G6 or G14 , ever had MW50 boost ?!
Butch2k should know that.

actually G14/AS and G6/AS were the same in performance , both had DB605AS - question is , as mentioned, the MW50 system.

JG53Frankyboy
03-21-2006, 04:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Monson74:
Well, wouldn't the solution be to either:

1) Remove the MK108 loadout option for the Bf109 G6 & have it only for the "_Late"-version?

2) Enable the restricted loadout feature in DF maps the same way it works in COOPS & Single Player? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

1. after the IAR81 weapons change "fiasko" (old missions and campaigns not worked anymore if the deleted weaponchoice was used !) i doubt Maddox will delete ever a weaponloadout again.

2. that would need a totaly new system of putting planes on dogfight maps. it workes totaly different in COOP/Single player. so its doubtfull so late in IL2 series developement..

Monson74
03-21-2006, 05:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Monson74:
Well, wouldn't the solution be to either:

1) Remove the MK108 loadout option for the Bf109 G6 & have it only for the "_Late"-version?

2) Enable the restricted loadout feature in DF maps the same way it works in COOPS & Single Player? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

1. after the IAR81 weapons change "fiasko" (old missions and campaigns not worked anymore if the deleted weaponchoice was used !) i doubt Maddox will delete ever a weaponloadout again.

2. that would need a totaly new system of putting planes on dogfight maps. it workes totaly different in COOP/Single player. so its doubtfull so late in IL2 series developement.. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Roger, I didn't know there were such a problem with removing weapons - I understand that this is not a small correction after all - it's not a big deal except for those who prefer accurate historical settings (me) because we can simply chose the default loadout - I can't hit anything but blue sky with that elephant gun anyway http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

butch2k
03-21-2006, 08:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by La7_brook:
what was diffences of the RL g14/as and g6as with broost /srry of for been of subjet </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

im not sure if the DB605AS engined 109s, if G6 or G14 , ever had MW50 boost ?!
Butch2k should know that.

actually G14/AS and G6/AS were the same in performance , both had DB605AS - question is , as mentioned, the MW50 system. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


The G-14/AS was to the G-6/AS what the G-14 was to the G-6, i.e. basically the same a/c but with MW-50.
The G-6/AS used the DB605AS w/o MW-50, while the G-14/AS relied on the DB605ASM which was a DB605AS modified for MW injection.
As a side note, early 44 conversion kits were issued to convert the GM-1 using Gustavs(the G-6/U2 and G-6/AS/U2 as well as G-5s...) to MW-50.
So a G-6/U2/AS with MW-50 is fairly similar to the G-14/AS except for the boost fluid tank which was built to accomodate the very low temp GM-1 (-60 or -80?C IIRC), while the G-14s used a non-insulated aluminium tank.

You could consider the in-game G-6/AS as a G-6/U2/AS with field mod MW-50 kit.

csThor
03-21-2006, 08:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Buzzsaw-:
Salute

Since we are on the topic of the Mk 108, wonder if someone can answer a question:

I am building a Ploesti campaign, starting in April '44.

Luftwaffe had a 110 Nachtjager group in the Ploesti area, which was used in the daylight to repel the USAAF bombing attacks.

Does anyone know what the Eastern Front 110's were equipped with as far as weapons were concerned? Were they using the Mk 108's or still the additional twin 151/20's in the pod under the nose?

Any help appreciated. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In any way this Nachtj¤ger unit shouldn't count as "Eastern Front unit" at all.
A typical Bf 110 G-4 (the nightfighter version of the G-2 - the aft cockpit of our G-2 is actually the one from the G-4) had 2x Mk 108 and 2x MG 151/20 in the nose, the MG 81Z machine gun in the rear and rather often two MG FF/M or MG 151/20 as "Schr¤ge Musik".

JG53Frankyboy
03-21-2006, 09:17 AM
well, you can assume as Bf110 for the IV/NJG6 , operating in the rumanian skies:

Bf110F-4/M1 with MG151/20 gondolas and 4 MG17 in the nose
(still a lot of 110F as you can see here
http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/njagd/bivnjg6.html )


Bf110G-4/M1 with MG151/20 gondolas, still 4 MG17 in the nose

the M1 MG151/20 gondola was often removed from the front units to get performance back !

Bf110G-4/R3 with MK108 in the nose ( serial production began December 1943)

Bf110G-4 with 2xMG151/20 replacing the 4xMG17 in the nose as a fieldmodification

MG/FF as Schr¤ge Musik (in F4 and G4)was also Fieldmod at that time. the "official" G4/R8 had its production start in July 1944.

MG151 werent used as Schr¤geMusik in the Bf110 btw , their barrels were to long, could be dangerous when the crew have to bail out.

also the MK108 caused proplems for the Nightfighters in general. because the firing range in nightfighting was often so short that the MK108 made to much damage and the fighter could be damaged by parts of the bomber or its sudden explosion !
also forward firing MK108s could damage the radar because of its blast.

Buzzsaw-
03-21-2006, 09:37 AM
Salute Thor

Thanks for the information.

Another question if you have the time:

The Germans improvised the defence of Ploesti from whatever assets they had in the area.

There was a dedicated defence of units from JG-53, as well as the Romanian Grupuls, but they also called on aircraft from a 190 Schlactgeschwader which was normally assigned to ground attack versus Soviet targets. These 190's participated in the bomber intercepts.

The question is what type of 190's would they have been equipped with at that time?

I know that F8's were being manufactured in the Spring of '44, and that F8's were used in the later part of the defence of Ploesti in August of '44, but April might be too early. If that is the case, then what would be the most realistic choice for 190 type in April. I know the 190A5 in fighter-bomber configuration was used heavily on the Eastern front, but wondering if they would be around as late as April '44?

Thanks again for assistance.

JG53Frankyboy
03-21-2006, 09:43 AM
Fw190F-2 and -3 aka Fw190A-5/U3 and -/U17

Edit: the II/SG2 operated there , and as you can see they had already a lot of Fw190F-8 in spring 1944

http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/schlacht/biisg2.html

Monson74
03-21-2006, 12:18 PM
I'd like to jump in with a question too: Did any 108-armed plane see action in the MTO?

Kurfurst__
03-21-2006, 04:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ratsack:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
... Of course, there's the 1600 109Ks... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Kurfurst,

That 1,600 figure is just Prien's extrapolation of late 1944 production rates to 1945. It's not vaguely likely that the Germans could churn out Bf109s in early 1945 at the same rate they did during Oct-Dec 1944.

The solid figure is about 700.

Ratsack </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Not quite, the figure is coming from factory acceptance reports which give the production per month per factory per type between Jan 1944 - March 1945, put together in excel by a gentlemen from various Excel tables. It can be found on TOCH DF. For example, Jan-March 1945 Regensburg built 338, 233 and 168 K-4s. In March 1945 for example716 new-built ('Neubau') 109s were produced. April is missing, but it's know Erla built a few before it was overrun. 50-100 maybe... Check out TOCH, it's really interesting.

Radinger/Otto also qoutes factory acceptence flights for Regensburg, which accepted 856 109Ks until the end of 1944 alone.

Xiolablu3
03-22-2006, 11:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
Am I really reading that somehow restricting planes on DF servers will somehow make what
goes on on them... historic or more realistic?

If I take a Merry Go Round and replace the Unicorns and Tigers with Horses then will it
become more real horse riding? Because that is how far DF is removed from ever being a
simulation of what was real, a Merry Go Round compared to horse riding in open country.

The 'pernt' is that side-playing has really gone around the freaking bend. Yuns're nuts. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So we may as well have 1940 scenarios with Me262's and La7s&gt;?

Shall we throw it all away and start adding rockets to the game for fun?

Of course having the correct planes/loadouts in the correct year is more realistic.

I do not get your point, the fun is trying to recreate historic scenarios for many people here, we all KNOW its a computer game and not real, but we are trying to make it as real as possible, not go off on some tangent because its not the real thing.

I dont get what you are trying to say here AT ALL?

Isnt the point of a sim to tyr and get it as close to the real thing as POSSIBLE? Always knowing its just a computer game in the end??

ElAurens
03-23-2006, 05:24 AM
WWWMaxGunz = Offline snob.

Be sure.