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Freiwillige
11-23-2009, 11:45 PM
So tonight I fired up the beast (IL2) for the first time in quiet a while since I have been in SHIII\IV land lately so its been a good month and a half at least since I tore through the virtual skies.

The AI started pulling some crazy negative G' maneuvers and it all hit me a that moment like a ton of bricks. Something Kettenheunde had posted a few days ago that had been ticking in the back of my head like a bomb went off.

The constant debates about aircraft performance, 109 vs Mustang, Fw-190D is 3 kilometers faster at 12 feet alt. than reality etc.

The reason we dispute these characteristics so passionately is because we can constantly fly our aircraft at the edge of the envelope!

Now lets compare that to the reality of the situation.
Real WWII pilots had to deal with gravity and forces on the body that were exhausting if not out right painful. The fatigue of combat flying on the human body not just physically but emotionally was tremendous. Pilots would not just yank and bank their aircraft all over the sky at 400 MPH...If they did be damn sure it was an emergency!

We take so much for granted sitting at our desks and doing virtual airshow acrobatics while shooting at each other that its hard to grasp that they just did not fight this way. (At least very often)

That is why the little tad bits of aircraft performance mattered little compared with Pilot Training, Aircraft familiarity, Actual flight hours.

The Aircraft of the day were closely matched enough that while having influence on the outcome I would have to say it is far less than what I stated above.

Let me put it to you this way.

You have had your drivers license for 6 months and you have a tuned Corvette with 480 horse power.

You are facing Mario Andrette in his 86' Porsche 911 turbo stock with 390 horse power.

You are racing a twisty track that he has plenty of experience in his F-1 races.

The car numbers say you have him hands down his experience says otherwise. And even if you manage to hang with him for a little while your inexperience almost guarantees your going to kill yourself trying to keep up as you fatigue much quicker than him as your adrenaline rushes and your heart races he is calm and cool and experienced...doesn't break a sweat.

WWII combat was a lot like the above description I believe.

Pilots who were smart would try to save their energy for the real fight instead of throwing themselves around with wild abandon quickly tiring themselves and their airframes.

That also is why you read of slashing attacks followed by the pilots simply heading home.

Thanks Kettenheund for the thought that made me think to post this.

Freiwillige
11-23-2009, 11:45 PM
So tonight I fired up the beast (IL2) for the first time in quiet a while since I have been in SHIII\IV land lately so its been a good month and a half at least since I tore through the virtual skies.

The AI started pulling some crazy negative G' maneuvers and it all hit me a that moment like a ton of bricks. Something Kettenheunde had posted a few days ago that had been ticking in the back of my head like a bomb went off.

The constant debates about aircraft performance, 109 vs Mustang, Fw-190D is 3 kilometers faster at 12 feet alt. than reality etc.

The reason we dispute these characteristics so passionately is because we can constantly fly our aircraft at the edge of the envelope!

Now lets compare that to the reality of the situation.
Real WWII pilots had to deal with gravity and forces on the body that were exhausting if not out right painful. The fatigue of combat flying on the human body not just physically but emotionally was tremendous. Pilots would not just yank and bank their aircraft all over the sky at 400 MPH...If they did be damn sure it was an emergency!

We take so much for granted sitting at our desks and doing virtual airshow acrobatics while shooting at each other that its hard to grasp that they just did not fight this way. (At least very often)

That is why the little tad bits of aircraft performance mattered little compared with Pilot Training, Aircraft familiarity, Actual flight hours.

The Aircraft of the day were closely matched enough that while having influence on the outcome I would have to say it is far less than what I stated above.

Let me put it to you this way.

You have had your drivers license for 6 months and you have a tuned Corvette with 480 horse power.

You are facing Mario Andrette in his 86' Porsche 911 turbo stock with 390 horse power.

You are racing a twisty track that he has plenty of experience in his F-1 races.

The car numbers say you have him hands down his experience says otherwise. And even if you manage to hang with him for a little while your inexperience almost guarantees your going to kill yourself trying to keep up as you fatigue much quicker than him as your adrenaline rushes and your heart races he is calm and cool and experienced...doesn't break a sweat.

WWII combat was a lot like the above description I believe.

Pilots who were smart would try to save their energy for the real fight instead of throwing themselves around with wild abandon quickly tiring themselves and their airframes.

That also is why you read of slashing attacks followed by the pilots simply heading home.

Thanks Kettenheund for the thought that made me think to post this.

Romanator21
11-24-2009, 12:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">That also is why you read of slashing attacks followed by the pilots simply heading home. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I remember the days when I first played. Icons on, as well as GPS. I would just follow the map to some blue points, blast the crap out of everything and follow the blue things to their blue base if I had to. TnB, take my AI wingmen kills, and average 5 kills a mission. I thought, hey, I would be a decent pilot in WWII.

FR has changed this. It's still not even close to the experience of reality, but I have a lot less information about my surroundings, and my primary goal is to survive to the next mission. Finding someone to shoot at is a bonus. Killing them is uber bonus. I am happy now to average 1 kill every few missions. I know this is still better average than a lot of WWII pilots had. But this I attribute to unlimited chances to live http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I think I also heard that while Spits are more maneuverable, 109 pilots regularly out maneuvered Spits during the Bob, simply because the Germans were more comfortable with their planes and the Brits were afraid to push the Spit to its limits.

To accurately model these circumstances, every new recruit to this game must also purchass a dart launcher which plugs into your USB and points at your head. Now, there's an aircraft guide/readme that would actually be opened!http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif No more airquake fools, that's for sure http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

This is a joke, of course, don't be offended. It's a game after all, and I want to live. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

DKoor
11-24-2009, 12:29 AM
Death is undermodeled in IL-2.

idonno
11-24-2009, 12:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DKoor:
Death is undermodeled in IL-2. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Amen.

pogobbler
11-24-2009, 12:48 AM
But... but... a stock '86 Porsche 911 Turbo had only 282 HP in U.S. trim. I'm not sure how much in euro trim, right offhand, but there was certainly no 108 HP difference between the two. So obviously your point means nothing!! haha 'Tis true what you say... if we felt the effects that a real pilot would-- well, many would applaud the realism, but we'd no doubt tone things down a bit and take some more recovery time between flights, at least.

AndyJWest
11-24-2009, 02:57 AM
Yup, sounds about right.

What it comes down to is the 'noobs' online are the most historically correct in their representation of typical flying skills, the 'masters of full real' are the most authentic in their tactics, and the only ones to get it all right are the ones that only fly once, get shot down, and give up...

PanzerAce
11-24-2009, 03:37 AM
Andy, what do you actually mean when talking about noobs and flying skills (since there are a few ways I can read that at 2:30 in the morning while loaded to the gills with beer)...

My own views generally coincide with yours, but it seems to me some of the best flyers are going to be the ones that don't fly on full switch servers, since they can never ambush someone, never get in a blind spot, never (really) come out of the sun, etc. Instead, they have to earn each and every kill the hard way, against an enemy who knows where they are already.

AndyJWest
11-24-2009, 04:04 AM
PanzerAce, all I meant was that they don't get the ultimate out of their aircraft, make wrong decisions at critical moments, and otherwise show their lack of knowledge and experience. That is how many real-world WWII pilots started out, and a lot of them died because of it. Training helpes, but in a real combat situation, mistakes are made. If you are lucky, you live long enough to learn from them...

You could be right about 'the best fliers', at least in terms of being able to get the last few degrees-a-second turn out of an aircraft in a dogfight, but I was writing about tactics rather than turning ability.

I hope this makes sense, but having had less sleep than I really need, as usual (insomnia strikes again), I'm probably not expressing myself as well as I could either...

BillSwagger
11-24-2009, 04:06 AM
I play full real and open pit for different reasons. I don't think its a reflection of pilot skill, only that one is designed around a historical premise, the other is more for gaming.

In open pit i get shot up more, but i also get more kills. Full real plane sets are usually limited to historical premise, so planesets are often limited which really makes combat quite predictable after a few goes.

In a sim, we also have the luxury of learning from our mistakes. On the battle front, in RL, you only get one go at it. If you happened to be shot down and lived through it, then you could learn from it, and i'm sure the memory played out in heads of many pilots after being shot down. Prior to becoming an Ace, many of them were shot down, sometimes more than once.

I also think we can agree that Il2 is well past its prime as a simulator. Still a great simulator, its just what people are expecting to get out of it is no longer easily modded or developed.

The next generation of flight sims, will be able to model the extra details that could make sims like Il2 more realistic in terms of pilot fatigue, just the same as more detail can be put into the damage model, flight characteristics, and atmospheric conditions.

Bill

Yskonyn23
11-24-2009, 04:31 AM
Nice comment about the bodily excercise you get when doing combat maneuvers. Indeed on our PC's we can yank the aircraft from here to there without ever feeling what it would be like in real life or without becoming fatigued.

I remember my 'upset recovery' lesson when I was at the Flight Academy (real life). We went airborne in a simple Cessna 152 (Utility rated so it is certified for simple aerobatics +4g max IIRC).
After completing the objective of the lesson which was recovery of stalls, spins and unusual attitudes the instructor asked if I would like to go a bit further?

Of course I agreed and we pulled of some basic aerobatics, S turns, break away turns, 90 degrees course changes, 120 degrees bank dive/turns, some simple fairly basic stuff, but even then you get fatigued fairly quickly! We only pulled 2 - 3.5 g maximum and I was a fit 21 year old.

stalkervision
11-24-2009, 04:48 AM
I remember in a dogfights episode how a p-51 pilot described a "old hand" in a me-109 that just totally embarrassed him (fancy flying.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif ) with the maneuvers he could pull in his 109. He just got out of that combat with this pilot by the skin of his teeth.

I also remember another episode where a late model hotter version of the 109 was flown by a experianced german pilot and the mustang driver got into real trouble also and had to think quick before he was toast.

Kettenhunde
11-24-2009, 08:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Thanks Kettenheund </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


You are welcome!

Slapshot_54
11-24-2009, 10:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PanzerAce:...My own views generally coincide with yours, but it seems to me some of the best flyers are going to be the ones that don't fly on full switch servers, since they can never ambush someone, never get in a blind spot, never (really) come out of the sun, etc. Instead, they have to earn each and every kill the hard way, against an enemy who knows where they are already. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's an awfully subjective concept. While I've spent 95% plus of my time in the open pit servers, I went into a closed pit/no externals server a couple of nights ago for simple dogfight practice. There were maybe four of us in the server. It was the first time I spent serious time in a CP server in a very long time (I'm not counting CP with externals and padlock enabled).

After spending all of that time worrying about my situational awareness, keeping my head on a swivel, focusing on instruments when I had to, focusing on keeping my enemy in sight when I was engaged (and wondering in the back of my head when or if I was going to hit by his teammate), the idea that "earning it the hard way" in an open pit server where situational awareness is not a learned skill requring a lot of work (at least for me it did) but handed to them (myself included) on a silver platter with a push of a button on the joystick strikes me as a bit odd. Maybe it's because I'm somewhat new to the overall experience, but I felt far more mentally taxed after exiting that server than I ever did exiting an open pit server.

In other words, with all due respect, I think you're making the full real environment seem easier than it is (I would think that the ability to ambush, fly to a blind spot and coordinate with a wingman to survive in hostile skies are acquired skills that require a lot practice). That full real pilots may not be able to execute the radical moves by virtue of not having externals and padlock and choose not to engage in 1v1 duels for the sake of it is meaningless.

I guess this is my epiphany.

As far as earning kills the hard way, well, those pilots who think they are earning them the hard way by locking horns in a turnfight for the ages aren't paying attention to what's going on around them. Wonder Woman and arrows do nothing for them. Most of my kills are against pilots like that and they never see me coming. Maybe some of them are the "best" in that they can make radical turns, but I'd hardly call flying like that smart (even when I do it LOL)

S!
_54th_Slapshot

HayateAce
11-24-2009, 10:06 AM
This is the most gamey aspect of IL2. It was worse several versions ago, when a/c with good roll rates would allow noobs to put their craft into a perpetual pinwheel of death, to try to avoid taking fire. Not only did they not lose altitude while doing this at 20m, but the "pilot" did not experience much red out at all. In reality, their powdered eggs and sawdust sausage would be all over the canopy.

As things are now, we are all 19 year old towers of steel that aren't effected much more than a little blackout and occasional red out. There was a huge debate this in the past, that Oleg may have chimed in on. The method I think most realistic to implement would be to track the red out/black outs, keep a running total and degrade the pilot's input ability accordingly.

So, JohnnyAce of the server who pulls constant bat turns and uses trim (on a slider) would start mushing around later in his sortie. BnZ should be heavily taxing as well. A6M and I~153 pilots would have to watch their step and not overdo the turning.

Scolar
11-24-2009, 10:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Freiwillige:

You have had your drivers license for 6 months and you have a tuned Corvette with 480 horse power.

You are facing Mario Andrette in his 86' Porsche 911 turbo stock with 390 horse power.

You are racing a twisty track that he has plenty of experience in his F-1 races.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The problem with that is the Corvette is an American car and therefore cannot turn corners to save it's life. The Porsche although being a beast of overstear will go around corners better than a muscle car!

Manu-6S
11-24-2009, 10:42 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Slapshot_54:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PanzerAce:...My own views generally coincide with yours, but it seems to me some of the best flyers are going to be the ones that don't fly on full switch servers, since they can never ambush someone, never get in a blind spot, never (really) come out of the sun, etc. Instead, they have to earn each and every kill the hard way, against an enemy who knows where they are already. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's an awfully subjective concept. While I've spent 95% plus of my time in the open pit servers, I went into a closed pit/no externals server a couple of nights ago for simple dogfight practice. There were maybe four of us in the server. It was the first time I spent serious time in a CP server in a very long time (I'm not counting CP with externals and padlock enabled).

After spending all of that time worrying about my situational awareness, keeping my head on a swivel, focusing on instruments when I had to, focusing on keeping my enemy in sight when I was engaged (and wondering in the back of my head when or if I was going to hit by his teammate), the idea that "earning it the hard way" in an open pit server where situational awareness is not a learned skill requring a lot of work (at least for me it did) but handed to them (myself included) on a silver platter with a push of a button on the joystick strikes me as a bit odd. Maybe it's because I'm somewhat new to the overall experience, but I felt far more mentally taxed after exiting that server than I ever did exiting an open pit server.

In other words, with all due respect, I think you're making the full real environment seem easier than it is (I would think that the ability to ambush, fly to a blind spot and coordinate with a wingman to survive in hostile skies are acquired skills that require a lot practice). That full real pilots may not be able to execute the radical moves by virtue of not having externals and padlock and choose not to engage in 1v1 duels for the sake of it is meaningless.

I guess this is my epiphany.

As far as earning kills the hard way, well, those pilots who think they are earning them the hard way by locking horns in a turnfight for the ages aren't paying attention to what's going on around them. Wonder Woman and arrows do nothing for them. Most of my kills are against pilots like that and they never see me coming. Maybe some of them are the "best" in that they can make radical turns, but I'd hardly call flying like that smart (even when I do it LOL)

S!
_54th_Slapshot </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

One of the greatest mistakes a pilot could do during a 1v1 is to losing visual track of his enemy. In OpenPit / External On you never lose it...

All depends on what you search in the sim: there are lots of players who are untouchable in close fights (1v1 above all) but are the first to be shot down in a full switch coop. The same many pilots are good ambusher but can't do nothing to save their life if catched in a dogfight.

Who's the better pilot?

Full switch and WW servers are two different games. But surely you can be the greatest pilot in close dogfight but still to be killed by a bounce (and calling for unfairness).

A good pilot on full switch will never enter in a close dogfight... never (this is why I don't teach defensive manouvres to my squad's OTU... good SA, good tactic &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; good skill with stick)

Infact somebody said that the most important things in air warfare are (in order):
1) Shooting skill (one chance =&gt; one kill)
2) Engagement (bounce or to be bounced)
3) Acrobatic skills.

Anyway if I know that I'm surely 1v1 and I'm in the better performer plane, I stay in the fight. But If I find a enemy dot 2km higher than me, I return home....

RegRag1977
11-24-2009, 10:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HayateAce:
In reality, their powdered eggs and sawdust sausage would be all over the canopy.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
+ 1

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif oh no that's too funny http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Another thing would also be to blur the vision before and after heavy g load and force the view to the center position.... to funny how we can look freely all around under heavy maneuvers.

RegRag1977
11-24-2009, 10:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Manu-6S:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Slapshot_54:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PanzerAce:...My own views generally coincide with yours, but it seems to me some of the best flyers are going to be the ones that don't fly on full switch servers, since they can never ambush someone, never get in a blind spot, never (really) come out of the sun, etc. Instead, they have to earn each and every kill the hard way, against an enemy who knows where they are already. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's an awfully subjective concept. While I've spent 95% plus of my time in the open pit servers, I went into a closed pit/no externals server a couple of nights ago for simple dogfight practice. There were maybe four of us in the server. It was the first time I spent serious time in a CP server in a very long time (I'm not counting CP with externals and padlock enabled).

After spending all of that time worrying about my situational awareness, keeping my head on a swivel, focusing on instruments when I had to, focusing on keeping my enemy in sight when I was engaged (and wondering in the back of my head when or if I was going to hit by his teammate), the idea that "earning it the hard way" in an open pit server where situational awareness is not a learned skill requring a lot of work (at least for me it did) but handed to them (myself included) on a silver platter with a push of a button on the joystick strikes me as a bit odd. Maybe it's because I'm somewhat new to the overall experience, but I felt far more mentally taxed after exiting that server than I ever did exiting an open pit server.

In other words, with all due respect, I think you're making the full real environment seem easier than it is (I would think that the ability to ambush, fly to a blind spot and coordinate with a wingman to survive in hostile skies are acquired skills that require a lot practice). That full real pilots may not be able to execute the radical moves by virtue of not having externals and padlock and choose not to engage in 1v1 duels for the sake of it is meaningless.

I guess this is my epiphany.

As far as earning kills the hard way, well, those pilots who think they are earning them the hard way by locking horns in a turnfight for the ages aren't paying attention to what's going on around them. Wonder Woman and arrows do nothing for them. Most of my kills are against pilots like that and they never see me coming. Maybe some of them are the "best" in that they can make radical turns, but I'd hardly call flying like that smart (even when I do it LOL)

S!
_54th_Slapshot </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

One of the greatest mistakes a pilot could do during a 1v1 is to losing visual track of his enemy. In OpenPit / External On you never lose it...

All depends on what you search in the sim: there are lots of players who are untouchable in close fights (1v1 above all) but are the first to be shot down in a full switch coop. The same many pilots are good ambusher but can't do nothing to save their life if catched in a dogfight.

Who's the better pilot?

Full switch and WW servers are two different games. But surely you can be the greatest pilot in close dogfight but still to be killed by a bounce (and calling for unfairness).

A good pilot on full switch will never enter in a close dogfight... never (this is why I don't teach defensive manouvres to my squad's OTU... good SA, good tactic &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; good skill with stick)

Infact somebody said that the most important things in air warfare are (in order):
1) Shooting skill (one chance =&gt; one kill)
2) Engagement (bounce or to be bounced)
3) Acrobatic skills.

Anyway if I know that I'm surely 1v1 and I'm in the better performer plane, I stay in the fight. But If I find a enemy dot 2km higher than me, I return home.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The words of wisdom http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/halo.gif

Best defensive maneuver: straight line + wingman

Manu-6S
11-24-2009, 10:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RegRag1977:
The words of wisdom http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/halo.gif
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://media.ubi.com/us/forum_images/gf-glomp.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RegRag1977:
Best defensive maneuver: straight line + wingman </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

M_Gunz
11-24-2009, 11:07 AM
Realism is pixel view POV 90 deg or less wide, right? I keep forgetting.
Must be that way to make up for no G-forces or feel.

Stiletto-
11-24-2009, 11:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Scolar:
The problem with that is the Corvette is an American car and therefore cannot turn corners to save it's life. The Porsche although being a beast of overstear will go around corners better than a muscle car! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you knew anything about a late model Corvette and a mid 80's 911 you would realize that a C5 or C6 'Vette is much better in the corners as well as on the straights. The 911 is an aged design (I will hold off saying outdated). It is a rear-engined car, not mid-engined like most other sportscars with the motor behind the driver.

With the engine all the way in the back the 911 well most certainly hang it's tail out in the curves excessively and has a dangerous habit of throttle off oversteer .. Not exactly the quickest way around a track and a good way to get in trouble, this wasn't fixed until the 993. Certainly it is no Corvette slayer.

Sorry to get off subject.

Freiwillige
11-24-2009, 03:26 PM
The point was not about the cars per say but about the situation. It was a metaphore.

I think that most understand that.

The point is more than ever "Its not the plane its the pilot."

And take two fighters that are comperable such as Spit IX vs FW-190 A and the differances in performance of the planes does not effect the outcome as much as the pilots themselves.

MrSteven37
11-24-2009, 04:00 PM
Hmm, as soon as I discovered the full switch servers I instantly decided I would never fly anything else. However once in a while if there aren't any full switch servers with players in them I'll join one of those joke servers that allow externals and all that rubbish. I usually just pick a P-38 and take 400 MPH runs at the furball in a slight dive from a few thousand feet above. It's funny blasting someone away, then going to external and seeing all the enemies chasing me, a couple hundred miles per hour slower of course. They get bored and turn away, and I repeat for about 10-15 kills an hour without even getting shot at. If you're an open pit player, read a few books written by WWII pilots, play full switch only, and experience the best thing that mankind has created to this day, IL-2!

Stiletto-
11-24-2009, 04:20 PM
Sorry, I am bit of a car nut, and for someone to think a late model Vette handling worse than a mid 80's bathtub.. I have to set it straight. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

But yes, I agree with you.. It is the pilot. All one has to do is look at the aircraft Finland had and the pilots who could do so much with what was given to them.

Monterey13
11-24-2009, 04:47 PM
The most important aspect I have found, is that you should be mature enough and wary enough to know when to engage, and when not to. If you don't have a clear advantage, then avoid the fight...period. You want to make the other pilot fight on your terms, not his.

ROXunreal
11-24-2009, 04:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MrSteven37:
Hmm, as soon as I discovered the full switch servers I instantly decided I would never fly anything else. However once in a while if there aren't any full switch servers with players in them I'll join one of those joke servers that allow externals and all that rubbish. I usually just pick a P-38 and take 400 MPH runs at the furball in a slight dive from a few thousand feet above. It's funny blasting someone away, then going to external and seeing all the enemies chasing me, a couple hundred miles per hour slower of course. They get bored and turn away, and I repeat for about 10-15 kills an hour without even getting shot at. If you're an open pit player, read a few books written by WWII pilots, play full switch only, and experience the best thing that mankind has created to this day, IL-2! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

1. some of us don't have track IR and can't play from cockpit decently
2. Some of us like quick fun rather than flying 45 minutes on a full real server without seeing anyone
3. My opinion is that usually true pilot skill is the determining factor in open pit servers, while the element of surprise/situational awareness is the determining factor in full real servers.
4. I'd love to see your 15 kills per hour on an open pit server in a P-38, and the name of the server where you fly so I can score some good 2 engine kills in it.

Full real/non full real servers don't exclude each other.

MrSteven37
11-24-2009, 06:34 PM
Ah, I didn't mean to start a war, just wanted to shed some light. After all, this is a simulator, most people I would imagine play this for the feel of realism. 25 mixed aeroplanes (Spits, 109s, 190s, Zeroes, Lavochkins and KI-84's on the same team) all with different skins and different markings just sort of kills it for me. In the full switch servers you learn to appreciate the flying itself, not just the combat. You can go up for a flight and get in one confrontation with an enemy, duke it out for a short while and break off home without even firing and as long as you make it back it can be a very satisfying flight. Worry less about those 'points' for getting kills, and focus on the actual experience. By the way I don't have TrackIR, a HOTAS setup, rudder pedals, or a computer that can even run the game on full settings, and I still put up some serious numbers on the full switch servers. Good day!

Romanator21
11-24-2009, 08:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">1. some of us don't have track IR and can't play from cockpit decently
2. Some of us like quick fun rather than flying 45 minutes on a full real server without seeing anyone
3. My opinion is that usually true pilot skill is the determining factor in open pit servers, while the element of surprise/situational awareness is the determining factor in full real servers.
4. I'd love to see your 15 kills per hour on an open pit server in a P-38, and the name of the server where you fly so I can score some good 2 engine kills in it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

1. I don't have TIR either. Most folks don't. I do just fine in FR servers by just placing my stick in my right (dominant) hand, and the mouse in my left. This way you can even bind controls to your mouse: left and right buttons for rudder, and wheel for throttle or prop pitch.
2. And that's fine. I have my days when I need quick action too.
3. The determining factor in open pit servers is luck I think. There are days when I do terribly, and other times when I destroy everything in sight. Do I magically get better and worse game by game? Situational awareness is a skill set in itself, and you shouldn't downplay that. I sometimes make kills in the Airquake servers without touching F2 or F6, just for the fun of it. I hope that doesn't make me a lesser pilot because I practise better tactics and try to outsmart my enemy rather than seeing who has a tighter turn radius.
4. Very possible, and I've seen examples of it. But if you try to turn with a La-7, of course there is no chance. I hope that my inability to out-turn a La-7 in a P-38 is also not a reflection of my skill level.

Bearcat99
11-25-2009, 06:09 AM
Good post Freiwillige... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MrSteven37:
Ah, I didn't mean to start a war, just wanted to shed some light. After all, this is a simulator, most people I would imagine play this for the feel of realism. 25 mixed aeroplanes (Spits, 109s, 190s, Zeroes, Lavochkins and KI-84's on the same team) all with different skins and different markings just sort of kills it for me. In the full switch servers you learn to appreciate the flying itself, not just the combat. You can go up for a flight and get in one confrontation with an enemy, duke it out for a short while and break off home without even firing and as long as you make it back it can be a very satisfying flight. Worry less about those 'points' for getting kills, and focus on the actual experience. By the way I don't have TrackIR, a HOTAS setup, rudder pedals, or a computer that can even run the game on full settings, and I still put up some serious numbers on the full switch servers. Good day! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes but when you say things like <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">However once in a while if there aren't any full switch servers with players in them I'll join one of those joke servers that allow externals and all that rubbish. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It just seems so condescending .. You may not mean it that way but that's how it comes off.. as elitist BS.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
and I guess you may be in it for the "realism" I fly in this sim for fun.. but I like many many others fly it for fun.. and sometimes that fun comes in the form of a full switch server.. and sometimes not.

HayateAce
11-25-2009, 06:59 AM
No TiR here either.

Just an X45 with hat switch lookie.

stalkervision
11-25-2009, 07:19 AM
I never thought a good hat switch was such a big deal in using whatsoever. Hell, I often do vertical maneuvers while looking over my shoulder with my cheapo saitek 290 pro. One thing a good hat switch needs is "a good feel to it" thou.

Manu-6S
11-25-2009, 03:57 PM
TIR4 here, but I advise all the "Hat" guys to use NewView... It's a wonderful tool to have a "smooth" view if you can't buy a TIR (always the best, for motorsport sims and Arma2)

Viper2005_
11-25-2009, 04:52 PM
Being a pilot is something distinct from knowing that pushing the stick forward makes the nose go down.

The stick & rudder skills are only a relatively small fraction of the real deal.

When I took my PPL, the majority of the work I did was on nav and R/T, because the aircraft handling bit was pretty easy after umpteen zillion hours on various flightsims since the 1980s.

Likewise, Full Switch flying in IL2 places relatively little emphasis upon aircraft performance when compared with open cockpit, because there's just so much more going on.

I've seen fights go completely the opposite way from what you'd expect, both from the aircraft performance and indeed the initial position. The main reason for this is that people lose SA in a full switch environment. This doesn't just mean losing sight of the bandit; SA comes in myriad shades of grey.

The lowest level is tracking the dot.
The highest level is to know what the enemy aircraft is, and what its energy state is.

Most fights happen somewhere between those levels of SA.

It's very common for people to completely misjudge the energy state of their opponent, and this is where things can start to get strange - especially if they also misjudge distance.

What ends up happening is that everybody starts fighting shadows. You're fighting your assumed opponent, and his buddies you assume you haven't seen yet. Your opponent is doing much the same thing.

If you were genuinely fighting each other, then the result would be somewhere closer to that which you'd expect from the aircraft performance numbers. But when you fly full switch, your SA is almost always extremely incomplete, and so you're shadow boxing against the balance of probabilities.

IMO a good pilot in IL2 full switch needs to have good judgement. All the other stuff (stick & rudder skills, gunnery etc) are of limited importance. Judgement keeps you alive long enough to exploit opportunities as they present themselves.

If you're a bad shot then you'll be poor at converting opportunities into kills. But if your judgement keeps you alive then eventually the kills will come. It's much easier to learn to shoot than to learn good judgement. One of the hardest skills to learn is when to refuse combat. You generally know that you've done the right thing when the chatbar fills up with taunts...

A similar argument applies to real flying; the hardest thing is to know when not to fly.

Effectively, what you see in open cockpit servers is that most people have their SA artificially bumped up a few notches. This disproportionately affects the short range game, because the removal of cockpit bars, and the constant presence of basic instrumentation favours hard manoeuvring. So people go for turning fights, and turning fights naturally go to the deck.

Despite the artificial aids, the average open cockpit pilot doesn't really have good SA, so you can score kills easily by blowing through the turn fight at a high rate of knots and blasting all the low energy ducks that present themselves. But this does tend to annoy the locals after a while...

The thing that I find strangest about the open cockpit scene is the idea of the "1v1 fight".

Full switch I devote the majority of my efforts to avoid both "1v1" situations and "fights". The objective of the exercise is to kill the enemy, not to fight him. If I wanted a fight I'd be wearing ill-advised shorts and standing in a boxing ring with a referee.

Where I differ from some previous posters is that I consider the "1v1 fight" avoidance procedure to be strategy, whilst I consider that the end-game of manoeuvring and shooting is the domain of tactics.

The distinction in my mind is that strategy is an open loop approach to control, because it takes place in effective isolation from the enemy. Tactics is closed loop, because your every move depends upon that of your opponent.

PanzerAce
11-25-2009, 05:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Viper2005_:
The thing that I find strangest about the open cockpit scene is the idea of the "1v1 fight".

Full switch I devote the majority of my efforts to avoid both "1v1" situations and "fights". The objective of the exercise is to kill the enemy, not to fight him. If I wanted a fight I'd be wearing ill-advised shorts and standing in a boxing ring with a referee.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think you're misunderstanding something with 1v1 fights. There are two ways that they can come about. The first (and most common), is two pilots have been going after each other whenever possible, and so decide to remove themselves from the main combat area and engage in a duel or three to see which is actually the better pilot. These kinds of things provide great breaks from the run of the mill fights you see in open pit servers.

The other time they happen is when people in open pit servers go high without wingmen. Generally in the form of a D-9, J2M, P-47, etc, at ~7-9000m who is dropping on people. Eventually, someone else in a similar craft will climb up to them and engage in a very slow-mo dogfight while trying to maximize energy. In these instances, it isn't uncommon for an engagement to increase in alt as it progresses, as each person tries to get the high ground on the other. I remember one fight like this I had, I was in a P-47, other guy was in a -152H, we started around 7km, and we had climbed to ~12km before a lucky shot at almost 700m hit his engine and he started bleeding oil.

trashcanUK
11-25-2009, 05:29 PM
Going from externals on to off has changed how I fly, how I fight and my opinion of most aircraft ingame. Fw190 and P-39 being 2 examples of a/c that went up and down in my opinion respectively, primarily due to visibility from the 'pit.

externals on = speed is nice
externals off = speed is life

Good teamwork and comms is the most important thing, as history has proven time and time again.

Viper2005_
11-25-2009, 06:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PanzerAce:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Viper2005_:
The thing that I find strangest about the open cockpit scene is the idea of the "1v1 fight".

Full switch I devote the majority of my efforts to avoid both "1v1" situations and "fights". The objective of the exercise is to kill the enemy, not to fight him. If I wanted a fight I'd be wearing ill-advised shorts and standing in a boxing ring with a referee.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think you're misunderstanding something with 1v1 fights. There are two ways that they can come about. The first (and most common), is two pilots have been going after each other whenever possible, and so decide to remove themselves from the main combat area and engage in a duel or three to see which is actually the better pilot. These kinds of things provide great breaks from the run of the mill fights you see in open pit servers.

The other time they happen is when people in open pit servers go high without wingmen. Generally in the form of a D-9, J2M, P-47, etc, at ~7-9000m who is dropping on people. Eventually, someone else in a similar craft will climb up to them and engage in a very slow-mo dogfight while trying to maximize energy. In these instances, it isn't uncommon for an engagement to increase in alt as it progresses, as each person tries to get the high ground on the other. I remember one fight like this I had, I was in a P-47, other guy was in a -152H, we started around 7km, and we had climbed to ~12km before a lucky shot at almost 700m hit his engine and he started bleeding oil. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

IMO, all that 1v1 contests tell you is who is best at 1v1 fights.

It's a bit like taking a football game to penalties. You find out who is best at penalties, which represent a very small fraction of the game as a whole.

Personally, I've had 1v1 fights when flying full switch; but that was simply because there weren't other people around.

What I'm really talking about is the institution of the 1v1 with rules. You know the sort of thing. Dry merge, co-alt etc. etc..

It's just strange. I can do it; not very well, but I can do it. What I don't understand is why people want to do it. On the rare occasions that I watch football, the very last thing I want to see is England vs Germany in a penalty shoot-out.

Learning how to fight these "fair" 1v1 battles is roughly equivalent to learning how to play the penalty shoot-out game. The objective of the exercise should have been to win the game fair and square before the question of penalties could arise.

ROXunreal
11-26-2009, 07:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MrSteven37:
25 mixed aeroplanes (Spits, 109s, 190s, Zeroes, Lavochkins and KI-84's on the same team) all with different skins and different markings just sort of kills it for me. In the full switch servers you learn to appreciate the flying itself, not just the combat. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's what I thought too when I first went online, as all my other playing in QMB and campaigns offline all the years before was more or less historical planesets. But coming online I got used to flying for fun on open pit with various planes on both sides, not only is it quicker fun but also allows interesting showdowns between historically on the same side airplanes. That does not exclude my desire to go full real when I get a head tracking device (or learn to use the mouse, which will be never), but full real desire also doesn't exclude airquake chaos. It's a simulation, but it's also a game, and I intend to play it as many ways as I can. As far as flying itself and appreciating it goes, some times I spend 30 minutes on open pit servers flying a bomber high and around for that one pass before the map changes.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Romanator21:
The determining factor in open pit servers is luck I think. There are days when I do terribly, and other times when I destroy everything in sight. Do I magically get better and worse game by game?
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Luck is the defining factor of everything, but don't tell me you don't have good or bad days on full real too. I played 4-5 games online in my life, and in all of them there are days when I suck and days when I'm in the zone and can do anything. It's partially due to luck, but I think a much more important factor is your psychological state on that day, everything will affect the way you play, your mood, time of day, amount of sleep, empty or full stomach, even the weather. But the biggest factor is still skill.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Very possible, and I've seen examples of it. But if you try to turn with a La-7, of course there is no chance. I hope that my inability to out-turn a La-7 in a P-38 is also not a reflection of my skill level. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I said that because in a year of playing online I have never, ever been threatened by a P-38 while in a single engine plane, except for the occasional head on pass.

robtek1957
11-26-2009, 08:10 AM
Open pit -&gt; game
closed pit -&gt; attempted simulation

stalkervision
11-26-2009, 08:15 AM
stinky pits..no deodorant. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

Erkki_M
11-29-2009, 06:02 AM
+1 Viper! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

I too find the externals on game a mere shadow of what IL-2 can be in full switch. So much more to do and think about, so much more variables and depth! It might take more time for something to happen(boooooring, says a random arcade jock), but its a completely different game at all levels!

And about 1 vs 1 "skills"... Who cares, you never need them? Situational awareness, judgement, discipline, teamwork are the words, not even aircraft performance matters as much as any of those, gunnery and "flying skillzor" even less so. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

And you dont need a TIR! Flown since 2003 full real only, with CH 568, CH pedals, stick and mouse, as =PT=Erkki.

Sillius_Sodus
11-29-2009, 09:53 AM
I thinks having icons on is a bigger realism killer than having an open pit or externals enabled. It can pretty hard to sneak up on someone when your id is visible from kilometres away.

M_Gunz
11-29-2009, 02:51 PM
That's probably why there are servers with limited icons.