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XanderF
12-09-2004, 02:20 PM
I have wondered a lot why we don't have a Korean War sim out of this engine. As in, an addon like "Ace Expansion Pack" was to IL2: Forgotten Battles.

Wouldn't need to add THAT many aircraft - and many of those added we already could use in the WW2 Pacific Theater (B-29s, for example).

I mean, a *basic* Korean War sim on this engine would need:
* Carriers (got them)
* P-51s (got them)
* P-80s (got them)
* F-4U Corsair (got them)
* F-84
* F-86
* B-29 (got them)
* La-11 (got them, basically)
* IL-10 (got them, basically - Il-2 modified)
* Yak-9 (got them)
* Mig-15
* Korean Theater map

So...ummmm....yeah, 3 new airplanes, a new bomber, and a new map and we'd be set.

Guess I've always been thrilled by the jet fighter modelling in the IL-2 series, and revisitting the Korean War era with THIS game engine would be....really, really cool.

mazexx
12-09-2004, 02:42 PM
That sounds like an excellent proposal, especially as they have to leave some good stuff for BoB addons like the Spanish civil war, the med theatre and the late war western front....

/mazex

VW-IceFire
12-09-2004, 03:03 PM
Would love to see it, but I would also like them to fill the Pacific Theater in a bit more before they did.

I still think that Oleg should visit this one after he's done with Bob/The Med. That'd be really great. Its much like WWII...just with a few more advancements.

BTW: B-29...we've already got it. Unless they changed the B-29 alot. Also, add the IL-10. The North Koreans used those I think.

avimimus
12-09-2004, 03:03 PM
Carriers are not neccesary!

All that is needed:
-One or two small Korean maps (using PF textures)
-Modified versions for a few existing aircraft
-F-84
-F-86
-Il-10
-Mig-15
-Maybe an AI plane or two and some new weapons.
-A new version of DGEN

Remember that many Korean war sims have had less features than the above!

Quick development, could be sold as expansion back for $39.99, making money to be used building BOB

I know it isn't as extensive and good value for our money as we are used to, but it is a good way to give Oleg money to fund BOB and would give us at least a taste of Korea!

Definetly worth suggesting to Oleg.

avimimus
12-09-2004, 03:16 PM
Xander could you edit your post and add a poll?

Could you included in the option what price people would be willing to pay and whether they think BOB should be prioritised instead?

XanderF
12-09-2004, 03:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by avimimus:
Xander could you edit your post and add a poll?

Could you included in the option what price people would be willing to pay and whether they think BOB should be prioritised instead? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hmmm....doesn't look like I can add a poll after the fact (or don't have sufficient permissions to yet, dunno).

FWIW, I'd prefer this prioritized over BoB (although I am EAGERLY awaiting that sim) and would *gladly* pay, say, $29.99 for it for just what is listed above. Possibly $39.99 if a little more was added than outlined above.

Again, as noted above, it's a matter of economics. Compared to BoB, this will take a LOT less dev time - very little actually needs to be added - and can be sold as a full retail add-on.

Daiichidoku
12-09-2004, 03:25 PM
Dont forget Fairy Fireflys, Gloster Meteors, A 26 Invaders, A1 Skyraiders, Grumman Panthers....there is actually quite a few different types involved...plus rotary craft

Not sure abotu wether the B29s there or not....that is, wether they were deployed there as B 50s, or what?

Aaron_GT
12-09-2004, 03:32 PM
Sea Fury, Vampires, Canberra (n service - was it used in combat in Korea?), probably Sea Vixen too.

ucanfly
12-09-2004, 06:11 PM
ALthough I would love to see a Korean expansion pack, I think I agree with the "let's finish WWII" and even "let's round out the Pacific first" sentiments. Furthermore , your "got that" list is a little optimistic since all of the models you cite as already in the sim are not the same variants as their Korean war counterpart.

I'd love to see what Oleg could do with Korean war addon and I think it's a great idea as long as it doesn't interfere with WWII addons and BOB release.

LEXX_Luthor
12-09-2004, 08:47 PM
A late 1940s to early 1950s jet addon pac would be the better scenario, and far more interesting, with Dessualt Mystere, Hawker Hunter, Supermarine Swift, IL~28, La~15 etc... (yes another uber La dogfighter!!)


Jet sim would require new high altitude grafix engine, or it will bust. I think the Devs pushed FB as far as it goes in PF. Waiting for BoB and Beyond...with Battle of Poland and France addon pacs.

...with the recent labelling of something sad called "firepower" as "FP" I am now forced to call PF "PF"...I give in. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

SkyChimp
12-09-2004, 08:58 PM
The Korean War deserves to be an entirely new sim.

Bearcat99
12-09-2004, 09:29 PM
Im with the ape on this one.

XanderF
12-09-2004, 09:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SkyChimp:
The Korean War deserves to be an entirely new sim. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
And...while I *do* agree that this would be nice, let's be realistic for a moment.

Remember the LAST Koren War air sim? Critical success, commercial failure?

Let's keep it simple and small - something that would be suitable as an addon for Pacific Fighters (to boost sales of PF the same way AEP boosted sales of IL2:FB). A whole new product would be nice, but I can't see that happening for a LONG time.

LEXX_Luthor
12-09-2004, 09:45 PM
XanderF:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Remember the LAST Koren War air sim? Critical success, commercial failure? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ya, because Rowan kept it small and tiny and Korea Only.

Madddox Games does big things like, for example, ALL of World War 2, and Oleg should make new vast 1950-1970 jet sim, possibly with seperate profitable Korea Addon CD. Saab, Dessault, Supermarine, Hawker, etc...all this would generate global interest outside small commercially limited Korean War sim.

We already have all the Corsair and JuGG ground attack we want now over the FBP. F~84G and F~105 "Thunder JuGGs" would be Awsum though.

WUAF_Badsight
12-09-2004, 10:02 PM
i was BADLY hopeing that Maddox Games would decide to do a modern Korea sim as their sequal to FB . . .

it deserves a new Game Engine (a'la BoB) to do it justice

ucanfly
12-09-2004, 10:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SkyChimp:
The Korean War deserves to be an entirely new sim. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

True but I would like to see what Oleg can do with it. I don't see how it will occur unless it is small. Oleg has too much on his plate as it is. I think a Korean expansion would be far more likely to occur than a whole new game (from Oleg at least).

XanderF
12-10-2004, 01:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WUAF_Badsight:
it deserves a new Game Engine (a'la BoB) to do it justice <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I really don't see how.

Try watching the 'Me262vsYP80' track again some time. Looks pretty **** good to me.

Tweak the view distance some is all that is really needed - and modern CPUs and GPUs can handle that.

So...few new aircraft, new maps, longer view distance....sounds like addon material.

karost
12-10-2004, 06:40 AM
Korean War?
hummm sound... interesting but I would like them all on BOB engine batter

do you have anyidea when you fly mig-15 over ( 35,000 ft) it seem like you fly U2 at 70,000 ft for current IL-2 engine.... do you like that ? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://flatstanley.enoreo.on.ca/images/stan-in-u2.jpg

S!

LEXX_Luthor
12-10-2004, 09:28 AM
Yes, jet sim can't use FB high altitude Earth pancake grafix.

Like XanderF said about Rowan's commercial failure, you can't sell a Korea sim by itself because you can only fly for one side with any Choices, the other side you only get MiG~15...maybe Yak~17 I guess.

But a new 1950-1970 jet sim would be like FB -- all nations of the world represented, allowing simming Mid East, India/Pakistan, early Vietnam, and Korea, as well as fascinating "Hot" Cold War possibilities. For ground attack prop planes, we already do that now with Corsair, JuGG and IL~2.

Aaron_GT
12-10-2004, 09:37 AM
" ALL of World War 2"

Not until there's an Avro Anson in it it isn't :-)

Seriously, a good idea might be for Oleg, at the end of the life of the IL2/FB/PF engine to license it to a 3rd party developer to do a Korean sim/add on. It could give Oleg a bit of a cash lump sum just before BoB gets released and when sales of the existing sims will probably be low. (Although there is the RTS coming about at some point, I suppose - don't know when, though).

Aaron_GT
12-10-2004, 09:39 AM
" because you can only fly for one side with any Choices, the other side you only get MiG~15...maybe Yak~17 I guess. "

Also IL-10, Po-2 (used on night intruder missions, amazingly enough). I am sure there were other planes involved of soviet design too.

LEXX_Luthor
12-10-2004, 09:47 AM
-- didn't see your latest post. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


People are looking for "jets" in "Korea sim." People can fly for one side only with any Choices. For the ground attack prop planes and fighter planes, we already have Ussian and Russian props--and we can mix them with German and Japanese (and hopefully soon more Italians).

Czech out netwings....Fiat G.55 is Dead. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

A "Korea War" addon pac for 1950-1970 jet sim could be hugely profitable. They could "reserve" and hold back some pop culture early jets like F~86 and MiG~15 until releace of Korea addon pac.

Flyable Folland Gnat http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

J_Weaver
12-10-2004, 04:35 PM
A korea sim would be cool. But a Skyraider, F9f are a must. An A-26 wouldn't hurt anything. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Philipscdrw
12-10-2004, 05:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aaron_GT:
" ALL of World War 2"

Not until there's an Avro Anson in it it isn't :-)

Seriously, a good idea might be for Oleg, at the end of the life of the IL2/FB/PF engine to license it to a 3rd party developer to do a Korean sim/add on. It could give Oleg a bit of a cash lump sum just before BoB gets released and when sales of the existing sims will probably be low. (Although there is the RTS coming about at some point, I suppose - don't know when, though). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Interesting idea. I think that in a perfect world, all the sims would be made by Oleg... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

2 ways to do Korean War:

a) Slap a couple more planes into PF, along with a basic A2A radar of some sort

b) Use the BoB or post-BoB engine to make a full 1950-1970 sim. Do everything properly.

I can't see a reason why he can't do both - except that option a) slows down BoB, which is bad...

ooh, I really hope that Oleg will make an Il2-style 50-70 sim... do you remember how groundbreakingly exciting Il-2 was when it was new? If Oleg would repeat that, but with jets and radar, wow...

ElmerFuddGantry
12-10-2004, 06:30 PM
No mention of a Meteor in possible Korean sim. They fought and flew with the RAAF in that conflict. Will still end the usual way. Icons on, all reds in Mig 15's, blue's all in Sabres, anything else as targets and screaming on the forums for eagles, foxbats and starfighters.

karost
12-10-2004, 06:51 PM
Korea War , Vieatname War and other jet war from 1950 to now Lock On is ready for all of that jobs and Lock On's FM is batter for Jet's job

BOB is next sim generation which we all waitting for, and Oleg and teams have alot of experience enought to create this new innovation.

we all are waitting for BOB....
S!

LEXX_Luthor
12-10-2004, 06:57 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

ElmerFudd:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Icons on, all reds in Mig 15's, blue's all in Sabres, anything else as targets and screaming on the forums for eagles, foxbats and starfighters. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
haha Perfect Mode description of a stand~alone Korea War flight sim. F~86 vs MiG~15. A classic 2-plane study sim.

That's why we need sim with F~86, MiG~15, MiG~19, Hawker Hunter, Supermarine Swift, Folland Gnat, Su~7 (~sweetest~ flying plane ever made since Fokker DVIII), Dessault Mystere, MirageIII, Saab J~29, J~35, BAC Lightning, etc...

did I mention F~106?

La~15 will be BANNED from the 1950 servers though http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif ...probably from all servers 1950-1970.

Philipscdrw
12-10-2004, 07:11 PM
You're forgetting the Vampire and the Javelin, they should be included if we're getting the Lightning... the Buccaneer would be awesome, with tactical nuclear anti-bigfatexpensiveSovietcruiser bomb... and if we're going to the 70s it gets Vietnam era too... which is a whole extra theatre to code for. Maybe starting off as Korean War, then the FB or the PF to the Korean sim is the Vietnam era? Ending up with a KW+VC supersim, 1950-1970... sweeeet...

AWACS would be nice, especially if we could fly it or operate the systems in it. Imagine co-op missions with players in the AWACS...

LEXX_Luthor
12-10-2004, 07:22 PM
Yes, the bombers too. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif How could I forget them?

B~57 / Canberra and IL~28.

I am also thinking of the old timer SAMS, when real missiles had real fins. SA~1, Nike Ajax, etc... this was before the HAWK and SA~6 tactical battlefield SAMs. In fact, they could releace a "Strategic" addon pac, with old timer SAMS, Tu~95 and B~47, and Su~11 and Canadian CF~100, etc...

woofiedog
12-10-2004, 10:53 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif If there is a Korean Addtion... you can't forget F-82B's Twin Mustang, TigerCat, A-26 Invader, F-80C and also the Helicopters YH-5A and the UH-19B.

ElmerFuddGantry
12-11-2004, 02:04 AM
Yeah Lex, I'm gettin a little cynical in my old age. Seems there's always a drift towards the latest and best "cats whiskers" in each addition to this great game/sim. These days its easier to count who's not flying in a corsair or frank, when I drop into a server. Prefer the common, old stuff. After all, most wars are fought with obsolete equipment. Just look at the Falklands in 1982. I'd love to see a "rarity factor" like in the old Squad Leader board games. Anyhow, I'm a bit curious about your comment on the Sukhoi Su-7 being the sweetest plane since the Fokker DVIII. I'm assuming you really meant the DVII, but I've always read that the Su-7 fighter bomber was a bit of a dud. Don't know too much about jets, but give me a Mig 17 for your new IL2 addon and I'll be happy. Thanks mate.

LEXX_Luthor
12-11-2004, 03:46 AM
~~> Fokker D~7 ... I always mess up my Roman numbers.

Su~7 (SuVII http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif ) was the most pleasant flying jet combat aircraft ever designed. Su~7 flight endurance and weapon load are for another thread.

Yes, the one thing that could break me away from a Mad_Docs BoB with Battle of France/Poland addon pac would be a Mad_Docs 1950-1970 crapp jet sim.


Crapp jets Rule! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

XanderF
12-12-2004, 03:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by karost:
Korea War , Vieatname War and other jet war from 1950 to now Lock On is ready for all of that jobs and Lock On's FM is batter for Jet's job <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
LOL - I think "flight model" is a moot point either way - both games do very well.

It's not like the Korean War was modern jets, anyway. As noted, the BULK of the fighters showing up in the war we ALREADY HAVE (albeit early models of). So it's hardly a leap in flight model requirements you seem to think. Again, watch the 'Me262vsYP80' track file you've already got with IL2:FB. Doesn't that look like fun?

Further, the radar modelling is VERY basic. Everything I can find on the topic indicates that Rowan's "Mig Alley" had it right - it's just about useful only to automatically adjust the convergence of the guns....and that's about it. No target designations or HUDs or anything fancy. Simple reflector optics, simple radar in the nose that is capable of adjusting the convergence to whatever is in the gunsight....and that's all she wrote.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>BOB is next sim generation which we all waitting for, and Oleg and teams have alot of experience enought to create this new innovation. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
No doubt - I'm eager to see this sim, too! (Well, no, I'm not - but the promise of an add-on Med theater after the fact is what has me waiting for BoB!!)

Still, Oleg's team needs money to keep developing BoB, and a buyable, retail, add-on to "Pacific Fighters" would be great way to do that. Preferably one that wouldn't require a huge time investment.

Aaron_GT
12-12-2004, 07:22 AM
" An A-26 wouldn't hurt anything."

It would be a nice addition for the ETO and PTO in the merged AEP/PF let alone anything else! Great plane, and saw plenty of service in WW2 so deserves to be included.

XanderF
12-12-2004, 07:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ElmerFuddGantry:
No mention of a Meteor in possible Korean sim. They fought and flew with the RAAF in that conflict. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Indeed, and, as noted above by another poster:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by J_Weaver:
An A-26 wouldn't hurt anything. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
And both would be decent additions to the WW2 plane set, as well - which is why I really think this is STRONGLY suitable for an add-on.

LEXX_Luthor
12-12-2004, 08:14 PM
It won't work because you can only fly for one side with any Choices available to the simmer.

With the exception of two (2) swept wing jets, Korea is *mostly* a ground attack sim for one side (must remember IL~10 though). IL~2 sim design started out as ground attack sim with only one (1) plane--obviously flying on Russian side only--so a Korea sim could expand into a real flight sim like FB covering all nations' aircraft. But a designed "Korea Only" would run into problems moving forward like FB's original "IL~2" high altitude grafix and FM engines are not suited for Western Front simming. In a 1950-1970 sim, the Korea part would be most easily accomplished as it represents the most primitive era in the sim.

In fact, Korea dating 1950 would represent the "historical start" of the 1950-1970 sim, although Korea may be a later Addon Pac, and a popular and highly profitable Addon Pac.

For teh internet dogfighters, they could select servers offering F~86, Hawker Hunter, MiG~17, J~29, Dessault Mystere, Folland Gnat, F~100, ...forgot the name of that Italian "F~86 era" jet fighter. The La~15 would be BANNED from servers of course. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif Also, some good online bomber missions could be flown with B~57/Canberra and IL~28, if you can drag dogfighters away from their jet fighter cockpits (well, the ones with pits turned on anyway http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif).

That's the kind of bombers we need. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

ElmerFuddGantry
12-13-2004, 03:30 AM
The RAAF would have been using a later version of the "meatbox" in Korea. They replaced the Mustangs they were initially using there. The Meteors used in WW2 were mainly MkI versions, although the substantialy improved MkIII was starting to come online in the squadrons. Still wasn't as advanced as the 262 though.

Il2pongo
12-13-2004, 10:35 AM
BOB is the way to go.
As people have pointed out, the low level optimized engine for IL2 is not suitible for Korea. Its not really suitible for the Defense of the Reich.
Let Oleg start us over with popular well known planes done to rediculous levels of detail and full 6 DOV cockpits. Make it so it works fine to 60,000 ft.
Then let our natural dweeby tendecies keep wanting later and later planes, keeping his team and a host of comunity modelers busy for 6 more years..
Include the 47-67 air war in later addons as described above.

But I think the important thing is to start with a clean slate as Oleg proposes..and start eary. The later planes generate thier own marketing with the masses.