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gothkrieger
01-24-2011, 10:57 AM
Been recording my dogfights and don’t notice the supposed “bullet convergence” that is supposed to be happening at 300 (where I set it). At that range when viewing the target there is still bullet spread at that range. I understand that if my plane it turning it will still be scattered in an arc but even in fairly level flight, coming in from direct 6 the rounds seem to envelop the target rather than converge. Am I missing something? (LOL, other than the target)

gothkrieger
01-24-2011, 10:57 AM
Been recording my dogfights and don’t notice the supposed “bullet convergence” that is supposed to be happening at 300 (where I set it). At that range when viewing the target there is still bullet spread at that range. I understand that if my plane it turning it will still be scattered in an arc but even in fairly level flight, coming in from direct 6 the rounds seem to envelop the target rather than converge. Am I missing something? (LOL, other than the target)

Ba5tard5word
01-24-2011, 11:18 AM
Set it to 150, 180 or 200 and get to .20 (200m) or closer to enemy fighters before firing, it should increase the damage your bullets do. 300 is too much for fighters in my opinion. As long as it's between 150 and 200 and you're getting in close, you'll do better. I don't think it matters so much that you get the convergence exactly right on the enemy fighter but getting in close and setting the convergence lower definitely helps.

horseback
01-24-2011, 11:40 AM
Is your 'ball' centered? If it isn't, your nose is not pointing in quite the same direction as your aircraft is traveling. This is referred to as a sideslip.

If your aircraft is in a sideslip, your rounds will scatter. They'll go where your crosshairs are pointing at the moment you pull the trigger, which is not quite where they will be when they reach the target's range.

If that's not the problem, check to see that your cannon and MGs are both set for the same convergence; some a/c with wing mounted guns have some nose mounted armament as purely MG and the wing cannon separate as in the FW 190A, and vice versa, as in the P-39 or the P-47 (which splits the inner and outer wing guns into cannon and MGs).

cheers

horseback

gothkrieger
01-24-2011, 12:14 PM
Good point, I have not noticed where the ball was during shooting, will have to look at that now and see what its doing. Man, there are enough things to watch for and consider when shooting, I am surprised I hit anything.
I am flying the Me 109 G 1942 & will check to see if MG and Cannon are set seperatly, think hey are both set for 300 if I remember right. This 200 range, would you use that againt bombers as well, that seems to be getting pretty close to his defensive guns?

Treetop64
01-24-2011, 12:29 PM
Why are you setting your convergence so far away?

Woke_Up_Dead
01-24-2011, 12:45 PM
I think even at convergence there is some random scatter to the bullets. Even in perfect conditions (level flight, ball centered, etc) they won't all hit an area the size of a coin from 200m just because their convergence is set to 200.

gothkrieger
01-24-2011, 12:47 PM
Treetop 64 Are you suggesting it should be closer?

Ba5tard5word
01-24-2011, 12:48 PM
I think it matters more for wing-mounted guns, the nose-mounted guns in a 109 are close together, though the MG's still have a set convergence, they're just closer together as the bullets move forward. I'd still set it lower to be sure.

It's mainly important to get close and have low convergence when using .30 cals. I wouldn't fire at a fighter at more than 180m out unless you can afford to waste ammo. With .50 cals I'd try to stick to 200m out or closer.

With bombers I start firing with .50 cals or cannons around 300m out though it's best to get closer especially with .30 cals. You just have to press your luck in getting in close or try and attack at an angle where their guns can't hit you. If you're really close you're able to hit engines and wings more easily and you don't waste as much cannon ammo if you don't have much of it to spare like in later 109 models, and if you slow down your speed you can often slide to the side while firing and rack up a bunch of hits on one bomber then move on to its neighboring bomber and do the same, if you're good at riding the rudder. Yes you risk getting hit but if you're attacking Rookie or Average bombers and do quick attacks at dead six then break off ASAP you usually only get pinged a few times. Best is really to just keep up speed and fly in close from the side or above and fire quickly then GTFO.

If you have a lot of cannon ammo or a lot of .50 cal ammo then by all means you can attack from 400 or even 500 meters out, but with .30 cals you really have to get in as close as possible, fortunately most early-war bombers only have turrets on the top or maybe one MG under the plane.

thefruitbat
01-24-2011, 01:30 PM
i use 200m for guns and cannons, and have done for years now.

anything more is to far out imo, and less makes it harder to hit further out.

Sillius_Sodus
01-24-2011, 01:39 PM
Most of the time I have mine set to 200m although in some early war and/or weakly armed kites I'll bring it down to 175.

A quick and easy way to determine distance to target is to look at its size relative to your sight ring. If you are shooting at a single engine fighter, with most aircraft, if the targets wingtips are touching the edge of your sight ring, you are 100m away from it. This method works with most of the aircraft in the game.

So, if you have your convergence set to 200m, wait until your target takes up at least half the diameter of your sight ring, then let 'er rip.

gothkrieger
01-24-2011, 02:03 PM
Thanks guys, I will try some of this stuff tonite. I have to get closer to my targets. It seems that AI takes shots from farther away but its not very effective at that.

Would like to get good enough to fly online eventually, at the moment I don't think I would make much of a challenge to the Ace types. Think I would like to fly co-op type missions rather than free-for-alls anyway, that way I can learn things from being with more experienced sim pilots rather than spending my time under silk.

ytareh
01-24-2011, 02:21 PM
100m for 90% of situations is lethal

thefruitbat
01-24-2011, 02:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gothkrieger:
Thanks guys, I will try some of this stuff tonite. I have to get closer to my targets. It seems that AI takes shots from farther away but its not very effective at that.

Would like to get good enough to fly online eventually, at the moment I don't think I would make much of a challenge to the Ace types. Think I would like to fly co-op type missions rather than free-for-alls anyway, that way I can learn things from being with more experienced sim pilots rather than spending my time under silk. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

join us for ubizoo co-ops if you casn make it, saturdays, see here. best way to learn is to get stuck in, plus can just ask for advice over comms http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/foru...1013236/m/5221074698 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/2601013236/m/5221074698)

flying 4.10 at the moment

M_Gunz
01-24-2011, 03:05 PM
+1 to Horseback, thanks you saved me on typing!

When I BnZ with high closing speed I am breaking off the run at about 200m just so I have time to avoid ramming. But I don't BnZ from 6 as my shots would have to go through the enemy AC and my passing angle would be too close to his nose and anyway most AC don't have armored sides (unlike those seat backs, etc) but rather from 4-5 or 7-8 angle and firing ahead of the target which the AI don't pick up on (they know when you're within 250m and your pipper is on them for 2+ seconds) until hits land. Even 303's are effective from 300m through canopies and engine sides. It takes far fewer hits from deflection to achieve the same results as from dead 6 on average, but you can always get lucky or mess it up either way.

Convergence at XXXm has an effective zone +/- about 20% given guns spread 5m apart and a 1m spread on target being acceptable, less if the guns are set wider or you have to have a tighter pattern.

Convergence also sets how far out the bullets should cross your pipper so be aware inside/outside convergence you may need to aim low or high and which depends on where your guns are in relation to your sight-line. If you are firing more than a little upwards or downwards, aim a bit low. If you are closing fast on the target, aim a bit low.

For gunnery practice, go into conf.ini and set Arcade=1 instead of 0 and your hits will show as white dots that stay on the target for a number of seconds, it is great positive feedback to get all those aiming corrections straight for whatever plane you're flying pretty quickly.

Treetop64
01-24-2011, 04:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gothkrieger:
Treetop 64 Are you suggesting it should be closer? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Others have already beaten me to respond, but yes, 125 - 200 meters is optimal, depending on what you're flying, and how you develop your flying and firing skills.

PhantomKira
01-24-2011, 09:06 PM
In long range shots with the German aircraft in particular, watch the "tracer", or the grey paths that follow the bullets. You'll notice that at longer range, the trajectory of the bullets changes markedly; they take a nose dive. I'd think this is modeling the loss of kinetic energy of the bullet. As the saying goes: "Don't fire until he fills your windscreen" (ie get close).

As a point of reference, I heard somewhere along the line that the P-47 types were set for 300 yards (274 meters) in the factory, and the guys in the field found this adequate. I use that setting in IL2 to good effect, but tend to get much closer.

VW-IceFire
01-24-2011, 09:11 PM
It really depends on your gunnery style.

For years I've played with the convergence settings and I've found that the optimal distance, for me, is 275 meters. I use this setting no matter what I'm doing (tank busting, strafing, air combat, etc.). I find 200 meters is too close... and it seems to mean that the bullets scatter too much when I do want to go for a longer ranged shot or a deflection angle shot. The saturation and hitting power at 200m is great... but there are a few trade offs.

No right answer... just different interpretations of the same issue.

Erkki_M
01-24-2011, 10:54 PM
For guns in the fuselage or wing root, convergence is mostly just about how much the guns are moved up. Like a rifle sight.

For wing guns, I've found that 200m is absolute max online. Usually use 140m, depending on plane and opponents and situations I expect to face. Only use 200m in the Fw 190 to get the "shotgun effect", the firepower being more than enough for one burst one kill from behind anyways.

Of course it depends on server settings, with the exterior views and icons on, and especially if the cockpit OFF view is allowed, you are not going to surprise anyone. That leads to firing distances being much longer than they would otherwise be, from 100-200m to 200-400m.

Just remember practice makes you the master, and while gunnery's golden its not the most important aspect of the game to know or learn first.

PhantomKira
01-24-2011, 11:11 PM
Erkki_M, what do you think is the most important aspect to know and learn first?

M_Gunz
01-25-2011, 02:17 AM
If for some reason you were not a science geek but are still interested in bullet drop, it's not terribly hard to figure.

A bullet fired exactly horizontal drops at the same rate as one that is just dropped motionless at the muzzle. If it is fired slightly upwards then it rises and drops the same as one thrown upwards with the vertical component of the fired bullet. This is simple physics and yeah sure if the bullet starts pointing slightly upwards and the spin keeps the nose high there will be some aero effect from that but at bullet ranges, in the short time of flight, it is a very low-order effect on accuracy; decimals to the action of gravity, ie 'jusabout nuthin'.

Things that fall speed up at a constant rate as they fall. Near Earth surface the rate is about 9.81m (32.2ft) per second per second. A curve showing how far with time looks like a parabola, it gets steeper and steeper.

From the TOP of the trajectory down the formula is simple. The drop is 1/2 x -9.81m x seconds squared. The gravity is - (minus) because the bullet falls down. If the bullet starts with an upward component then it's slightly more complicated as the rise has to slow to zero before it drops, then you need to use rise in meters per second + 1/2 x -9.81m x seconds squared and that does take some back-solving to know say how long a bullet thrown upwards at 1 m/s will take to fall back to the same height it started from. Velocity downward from drop is -9.81m x seconds.

Dropped from zero, by 1/10th seconds for 1/2 second;

second - mm dropped - inches dropped - velocity downward in m/s
0 sec - 0mm - 0' - 0 m/s fall
.1 --- 48 -- 1.8 - -0.981 --- our bullet that starts out with 1 m/s upward takes just over 1/10th second to stop rising and start falling.
.2 -- 192 -- 7.6 - -1.962
.3 -- 433 - 17.0 - -2.943
.4 -- 769 - 30.3 - -3.924
.5 - 1202 - 47.3 - -4.905

1 full second -- 4.9m - 16' 1" - -9.81

See how quick it adds? Viewed from behind, all you see is the rise and drop. A small rise before the drop does delay the drop for a small time but by then your shot has gone a long way out indeed.
From the pipper you see something of an illusion especially when the guns are well below the gunsight. With a very close convergence the bullets cross the pipper on the way UP at convergence range when the guns are 1m below the gunsight and the drop is less than 1m in the maybe 1/4 sec or less they might take to get to your range.
With nose guns just below the sight, the gunsight view 'sees' them rise above the pipper and then fall very quickly.

These gunsight pipper views can lead to some very whacked ideas about bullet trajectories if you don't know what's behind them. I've only shown the start here to give some idea of how fast bullet drop develops and the complication of crossing a curved trajectory with a straight line (view from the gunsight) and trying to judge the drop.

M_Gunz
01-25-2011, 02:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PhantomKira:
Erkki_M, what do you think is the most important aspect to know and learn first? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can give you my answer and it may differ from Erkki's. #1) Learn how long it takes your shots to reach convergence range. It's about like music timing; full note, half note, quarter note.. a feeling, not a calculation. The bullet should cross the pipper in that bit of time. Put your pipper ahead of the target so that the target will cross at around convergence in the time it takes the bullet to get to convergence and they will meet up to have a little party. Notice that no real math is involved, this is an animal kind of thing that works really fast without much thought at all. It's when you're shooting much off convergence (or with slip, or upwards/downwards, etc) that judgment steps in.

From dead six, out in front of the target is the same as the back end of the target. Shooting deflection only takes watching the motion of the target relative to the pipper and timing your trigger. From there, you have automatic weapons not single shot sniper rifles -- close is good enough to correct fire quickly. Even a ground-pounder grunt can do that. You get the timing down and the rest only helps get the first aim closer. Within a couple meters of target at 200m range is plenty good enough when you can swing the fire a bit or the target is already moving into the line of fire anyway (ie you shot a bit ahead, another 1/4 sec on the trigger and he crosses your fire before he can begin to turn).

Erkki_M
01-25-2011, 05:14 AM
I was more of thinking about the sim in general...

But if on gunnery, and not counting getting the guns solutions which is, in the end, more about SA, tactics & discipline etc. than sheer "flying skillzor", agreed with Max. Set convergence range(both vertical and horisontal components of the guns' lines of fire), heaviness of armament and where they are placed in your machine are all secondary. Easily number one is having instinctual knowledge, skill, guts feeling, of where your target is going to be in the time required for the rounds to cover the distance, and score hits. After that comes the ability to actually point the nose of your aircraft, and the guns, there, which is not (always)trivial.

As you might already see, its a whole field of related skills that are needed in such a simple PC game to fly, achieve whatever your mission is, and make it home. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Xiolablu3
01-25-2011, 06:43 AM
Personally I use 300 for mg and 200 for cannon. Its just about personal preference of what distance you shoot from.

As you get much more mg ammo, I tend to take pot shots from longer distance, hoping to get a lucky hit. And only shoot my cannons when I am pretty sure of a hit, as you dont want to waste precious cannon ammo. Once its gone I fly home and rearm.

Obviously the closer the better for shooting distance, but its not always a good idea to get TOO close. The screen may go black....http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

DKoor
01-25-2011, 08:20 AM
I've noticed that the crucial thing for my gunnery is precisely the trim...

thefruitbat
01-25-2011, 08:28 AM
If you however hear someone say 'if you think your close, get closer', take this with a grain of salt in il2.

I've just had my plane ruined for the n'th time by a bloody exploding i16 in front of me, grrrrrrr.

just about managed to unanimously dump it down on the runway despite oil all over the windscreen and various holes in both wings and an early morning mist.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

gothkrieger
01-25-2011, 10:07 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by thefruitbat:
If you however hear someone say 'if you think your close, get closer', take this with a grain of salt in il2.

I've just had my plane ruined for the n'th time by a bloody exploding i16 in front of me, grrrrrrr.


Yes, have had that happen to me as well, a plane explodes in front of you and shreds your own aircraft in the process.
just about managed to unanimously dump it down on the runway despite oil all over the windscreen and various holes in both wings and an early morning mist.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

gothkrieger
01-25-2011, 10:15 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by M_Gunz:

Convergence also sets how far out the bullets should cross your pipper so be aware inside/outside convergence you may need to aim low or high and which depends on where your guns are in relation to your sight-line. /QUOTE]

On flying a Me 109 G, the sights being above guns and cannon, should I be aiming a little high if I am a 200m and at same level as other aircraft?

PhantomKira
01-25-2011, 10:19 AM
As the saying goes "Fancy flying never killed anybody". It helps, but if you can't put your bullets where you want them, you're useless as a fighter pilot. Ability to shoot is key to getting kills, good flying is a large part of it, but by not means all of it.

@fruitbat: Ah yes the famous "exploding plane of DOOM!"

thefruitbat
01-25-2011, 11:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gothkrieger:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by M_Gunz:

Convergence also sets how far out the bullets should cross your pipper so be aware inside/outside convergence you may need to aim low or high and which depends on where your guns are in relation to your sight-line. /QUOTE]

On flying a Me 109 G, the sights being above guns and cannon, should I be aiming a little high if I am a 200m and at same level as other aircraft? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

if your convergence is at 200m and the plane is at 200m and you are directly behind both going straight, your sight will correspond with where your bullets will hit.

in the same situation but your 300m behind you will have to aim a little higher to allow for gravity, at 100m aim a little lower, because your bullets won't have dropped yet.

can't find the pic i was looking for showing bullet trajectory's from above and the side, but this will help,

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/foru...331078524#4331078524 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/2251068524?r=4331078524#4331078524)

scroll about halfway down.

Ba5tard5word
01-25-2011, 12:09 PM
For gunnery, practice is essential, keep at it and eventually you'll surprise yourself at how naturally you gauge your shots. I think if you overthink it you won't help yourself. Keep at it and keep experimenting and watching where your bullets go and you'll pick up on it. Each plane is a little different though, especially when you compare nose-mounted guns to wing-mounted guns. Getting close and setting convergence low are really the main rules I would follow, the other stuff like where your bullets drop is stuff you will pick up on naturally, though if you have to correct for bullet drop when firing at a fighter you need to get in closer...but like FB says not too close or you risk an enemy blowing up and killing your plane...it's happened to me many times though it's fairly rare, usually they fall apart or go down in flames.

Having a good stick and rudder pedals is one of the best things you can do, I have a CH stick and it's great for aiming in dogfights because it's very good at small movements to correct my gunsights placement. Like I'll fire a short burst and it overshoots the enemy's wing, then I can bank to the side slightly and line it up better and get a much better shot. I used to have a Logitech 3D Extreme Pro and it was terrible for the kinds of small movements you need for good firing, when I'd try to line up a shot my nose would be bouncing all over the place because the stick didn't have as fine control as a CH stick.

Rudders help with this too though they're more for keeping the plane steady and helping you maneuver--they require a lot of practice too but eventually you'll use them really naturally and feel like you lost a limb when your rudder cables get cut!

leitmotiv
01-25-2011, 12:41 PM
Shooting well with your Microsoft Sidewinder force-feedback stick (best FF in the business, but still not realistic enough) buffeting you is the real challenge. The non-FF sticks are like shooting at a penny arcade---rock stable---and completely unrealistic. A fighter vibrated terrifically whilst firing.

I used to use 100 meter convergence and shot from 50. Even with two .30 Brownings you had results, but the downside was getting hit by your target's broken off parts. I shoot from longer range now, but it is effete. Hartmann's advice was to shoot when the opponent filled your windscreen.

M_Gunz
01-25-2011, 03:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gothkrieger:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by M_Gunz:

Convergence also sets how far out the bullets should cross your pipper so be aware inside/outside convergence you may need to aim low or high and which depends on where your guns are in relation to your sight-line. /QUOTE]

On flying a Me 109 G, the sights being above guns and cannon, should I be aiming a little high if I am a 200m and at same level as other aircraft? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you have the convergence at 200m, flying straight and level and not changing speed then your shots should cross the pipper 200m in front of you. If the target is there then you should hit.

109 G nose gun shots should start out just below the sight line, rise up and cross the pipper at about 25m, be a bit but not much (a few inches at most right about 100-125m) above the pipper clear out until they fall back down to the pipper at 200m where you set convergence. Beyond 200m aim above the target, perhaps 1/2 a meter or more at 300m, you should check that in practice using Arcade=1 and see what sight picture gets hits with -very- short bursts. You can practice against friendly AI planes or get a friend online, set up invulnerable planes with unlimited ammo and not turn it into play time which is the hard part.

What's a lot of fun to me is when my plane is not staying the same distance from the target because I am closing in very fast. By the time the shots travel to the target it is closer than when I fired them. At 200m or less the extra is not much though and when closing at perhaps 100m/sec... I just start shooting maybe 40m 'long' and in 1/4 second trigger time I'm already hitting spot on. The longer the shot, the longer the travel time, the more extra range I trigger on. As I get inside my effectively longer convergence I need to aim just a bit low but at 200m with 2 seconds to ram the target, this pilot stops shooting and maneuvers to avoid collision!

It's amazing how close you can miss even with a good sight picture. Make a track of gunnery practice, be sure to have Arcade=1 during playback and when your plane starts to shoot hit pause. Look at your sight picture and instruments, especially The Ball. Jump the view to your target and slew around so you see the target up close and your plane off behind. Slow the time down to 1/4 and un-pause. Prepare for a revelation. Do that a few times and you should have enough feedback to start knowing what to change.

You only have to get close and correct your aim. If you are firing ahead in deflection you don't even have to correct your aim as long as your shots are just a bit ahead, just hold trigger another 1/4 to 1/2 second.

For me that is easier. I put my pipper ahead of the target with my plane flying steady and let the target approach to cross that. I am NOT trying to horse the pipper onto the target and therefore NOT inducing nose wobble. All I need to do is time my trigger pull and either fire or not depending on what I see the target do. If I can make a small correction smoothly then fine but otherwise I hold fire and keep maneuvering for the next guns pass. And I always go for hitting a bit from the side, below or above where I can put strikes directly on the cockpit and engine. All my tactics are to that end +and+ to make sure I don't exit out in front of the target, with the latter more important than the actual shooting.

The biggest thing you need to learn is where your shots go and how long they take to get there. Once you know that it's just a matter of setting up so your target will cross your fire and triggering just a tiny bit ahead. In time you will hardly need to use the gunsight at all.