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View Full Version : How suitable will the MKV be as a MK1A BOB alternative



Destraex
02-13-2004, 11:44 PM
THe MKV seems to be a spitfire MK1 with a more powerfull engine. No other differences are evident in the early MKVs (which mare converted MK1b's and sometimes MK1a's)

This means you will probably have to put better 109s into the missions that BOB makers create. The Hurri will be at a distinct disadvantage against both of these models.
As I understand it their were hardly any MK1b's in the BOB (as against the MK1a with only machine gun armament) which will make it even more unrealistic to include them in any BOB missions.

Not that I am complaining, just want to discuss
how it may be possible to get round these problems, perhaps we do not use cannons or boost in the spitfire to bring it down to MK1 standards http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Hey but its better than a kick in the teeth, esp since we are getting BOB later on http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Destraex
02-13-2004, 11:44 PM
THe MKV seems to be a spitfire MK1 with a more powerfull engine. No other differences are evident in the early MKVs (which mare converted MK1b's and sometimes MK1a's)

This means you will probably have to put better 109s into the missions that BOB makers create. The Hurri will be at a distinct disadvantage against both of these models.
As I understand it their were hardly any MK1b's in the BOB (as against the MK1a with only machine gun armament) which will make it even more unrealistic to include them in any BOB missions.

Not that I am complaining, just want to discuss
how it may be possible to get round these problems, perhaps we do not use cannons or boost in the spitfire to bring it down to MK1 standards http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Hey but its better than a kick in the teeth, esp since we are getting BOB later on http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

WUAF_Badsight
02-14-2004, 12:13 AM
in my BoB coop i had Hurricane IIb flying against Bf109 E7Z

its unfair ..............the BFs are a lot weaker

i use Hurricane Mk1's against Bf109 E7Z

& Hurricane IIb against Bf109 F2 & F4

kyrule2
02-14-2004, 12:35 AM
The Mk.V was enough of an improvement that I don't think you could fairly use it as a substitute for Mk.I.

I think after expansion this would be a nice plane set for a early Med type scenario:

-Spitfire Vb/c
-Hurricane IIb
-Hurricane IIc
-P-40E
-P-40M

vs.

-Bf-109F-2
-Bf-109F-4
-Bf-110G
-Ju-87D-3
-He-111H-6
-Fiat G.50

*Optional to include 109G-2 and FW-190A-4. This would be preferable though LW would have advantage IMO. It would still be accurate as P-40M is a '42 plane and the Spitfire Mk.IX didn't arrive in Med until later I believe.

I would love a desert map for this with lots of desert skins/camo. Dare to dream.

Things would really get interesting when/if we get Macchi 202, B-25, A-20, P-38F, etc.

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Destraex
02-14-2004, 01:02 AM
I do not like the idea of cannon armed fighters on the British side at all in BOB missions.

Guess its inevitable though.

Its probably better just to concentrate on the raids, circuses, rhubarbs and the like that flw over france to try and entice the
German A/F up. this was where the MKV realistically has its place and probably why we got the normandy maps and the late war AMI A/C.

I guess we can also do the Mediterannean and Desert with the MKV and as said above a desert map would not be hard to do and would be awesome.
does anyone know how to mod sturmovik maps yet, afterall its only a look unless you wanna include dust storms and reaistic weather - heat busrting tyres and shimmering deserts....

BOB just seems a little out of Reach ATM with good reason

Abbuzze
02-14-2004, 01:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WUAF_Badsight:
in my BoB coop i had Hurricane IIb flying against Bf109 E7Z

its unfair ..............the BFs are a lot weaker

i use Hurricane Mk1's against Bf109 E7Z

& Hurricane IIb against Bf109 F2 & F4<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why are you using the E7/Z? Its heavier with a worse performance thill 5000m than the other Emils, perhaps you should try another Emil...

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Oso2323
02-14-2004, 02:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by kyrule2:
The Mk.V was enough of an improvement that I don't think you could fairly use it as a substitute for Mk.I.

I think after expansion this would be a nice plane set for a early Med type scenario:

-Spitfire Vb/c<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Spit V's had metal ailerons, which were a huge improvement, as well as a negative g carberator (meaning your engine won't cut out a la Hurricane Mk 1.) The Vokes filters on those desert spit V's knocked off 20-30 mph - so we'd need a new model there as well.

Chuck_Older
02-14-2004, 08:03 AM
Spit Mk1B had cannons in 1940, but only 30 of them! Eight gun version was called the Mk1A after that.

MkV was also slowly optimised for low altitude, with clipped wings and various engines.

*****************************
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Bremspropeller
02-14-2004, 08:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Oso2323:

Spit V's had metal ailerons, which were a huge improvement, as well as a negative g carberator (meaning your engine won't cut out a la Hurricane Mk 1.) The Vokes filters on those desert spit V's knocked off 20-30 mph - so we'd need a new model there as well.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


The metallic ailerons improved the rollrate, but the new carberator didn't work as good as the engineers hoped to. The Spit Mk.V still could not compete with german a/c in negative-G maneuvures. The new carberator was an improvement, but it didn't solve the problem.



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VW-IceFire
02-14-2004, 08:33 AM
There is a MK 1 Spitfire being worked on. When it arrives then you'll have all the historical accuracy required...until then the Mark V is not too bad of a substitute. Its a year later and better but it sure does the role better than the LaGG's used in the present BoB campaign.

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The New IL2 Database is Coming Soon!

WUAF_Badsight
02-14-2004, 12:50 PM
well it will be a total slaughter putting the Spiy MkV against E series Bf109

it is totally unfair

as it is the Hurri handels getting bullet hits better than the Bf109 , if you are going to use E series Bf109 then use Hurricane Mk1

save the Hurricane IIb for going against Bf109 F series

after running my BoB DF room & my BoB coops that is the best match-up

even Hurricane IIb against Bf109 E series is unfairly balanced

XyZspineZyX
02-14-2004, 05:52 PM
Badsight wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>even Hurricane IIb against Bf109 E series is unfairly balanced<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In BoB yes, but not overall. Switch to the Med and this happened some.

Overall, the MkV should NOT be used in the BoB. the cannons are the main reason why. The carburetor improvements are the second.

ericson
02-14-2004, 05:59 PM
Fair? There were no Spits in the Desert of any Mk till 1942. The Hurricane and the P40 had to cope with the 109F and did a good job against the odds.Tach R squadrons were still flying the Mk1 Hurricanes. There is very little visual diference between MK1b mk11b and the Vb. Mk1's could and were converted to MKV's. The only visual difference being a circular oil cooler and a slightly blunter nose shape. The Mk11 was slightly slower than the MK1. Mk1a K9793 gave a top speed of 366mph at 20,000. Vb W3134 atained 371 at the same hieght. Not sure if K9793 was fitted with the slab of bullet proof glass that knocked about 6 mph off. Va X4922 fitted with the Volkes attained 360mph at 20,000 ft.

Destraex
02-14-2004, 06:17 PM
Well it seems even though it is a bad match that it is inevitable somebody will include it in BOB missions. For now I think it would be best to include it as AI only in campaign missions even though this spoils things.

Alternatively put the MKV up agianst the F or G would be ok.

I think I will be more keen to play french raiding party though against the new FW190s with their heat problems ;0
Were Blenheims used in these raids to entice the enemy or was it other Brit Bombers?

WUAF_Badsight
02-14-2004, 06:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stiglr:
In BoB yes, but not overall. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ive been running Bob coops & DF rooms for the last month out of interest for something different

the Hurri IIb is unfair to put against the E series Bf109 in FB

basically at equal ALT its VERY hard for the Bf to win

to get kills the Bf109 HAS to keep alt advantage

to make it fair the Mk1 Hurricane should be used against Bf109's in FB

Chuck_Older
02-14-2004, 06:57 PM
OK, I'll admit that now I'm confused.

Are we discussing the historical accuracy of which planes should be fighting which planes in May-October 1940, or are we now getting into which planes should be substituted for their actual counterparts, to preserve game balance?

*****************************
from the Hundred Years war to the Crimea, from the lance and the musket and the Roman spear, to all of the men who have stood with no fear, in the service of the King~ Clash

LEXX_Luthor
02-14-2004, 07:44 PM
*idea*

For offwhine BoB campaign...use classic Yak~1 substitution for AI Spitfire, but use Gibbage's Mk~5 Spit for Player/Playerette Spit~1, however...

...disable some functions like higher throttle settings or something in Control Menu so you suffer Punishment of flying a Mk~1 instead of Mk~5. Again, for AI use the traditional Yak~1.

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Destraex
02-14-2004, 09:02 PM
You could even unmap your cannon key. That way only the cine guns would fire

Rajvosa
02-15-2004, 07:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Destraex:
You could even unmap your cannon key. That way only the cine guns would fire<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, but then you'd only get half the firepower, 4 mgs vs. 8 on Spit Mk IA.
Gosh, why does it have to be so "accurate"?! Just use the darned plane until we get (if we get) the Mk I!

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Extreme_One
02-15-2004, 07:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
There is a MK 1 Spitfire being worked on. When it arrives then you'll have all the historical accuracy required...until then the Mark V is not too bad of a substitute. Its a year later and better but it sure does the role better than the LaGG's used in the present BoB campaign.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/temp_sig1.jpg
The New IL2 Database is Coming Soon!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif The Laggs were only used for a 'track' though not a mission!

S! Simon
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XyZspineZyX
02-15-2004, 11:05 AM
ericson, may i remind you that the Med is more than just the desert. There were spits on Malta in '42 as well.

I was merely pointing out that there are some occasions where spit Vs would come up against 109Es. Fs were the norm by 42, but there were some Es still in service.