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Ba5tard5word
07-06-2010, 01:58 PM
I've got the itch to fly a good campaign and I do like planes like the B-239 and I-16 and so on.

Are there good campaigns anyone knows of for the Winter War or the Continuation War? I'd like to do stuff where you're flying planes that match up well like the B-239 and I-16, I'm not so much into stuff like flying a B-239 against a Yak-1B like in the stock missions that come with Il-2, I know they did stuff like that in real life but the AI is really too annoying to deal with if it has even a marginally faster plane than you...

Ba5tard5word
07-06-2010, 01:58 PM
I've got the itch to fly a good campaign and I do like planes like the B-239 and I-16 and so on.

Are there good campaigns anyone knows of for the Winter War or the Continuation War? I'd like to do stuff where you're flying planes that match up well like the B-239 and I-16, I'm not so much into stuff like flying a B-239 against a Yak-1B like in the stock missions that come with Il-2, I know they did stuff like that in real life but the AI is really too annoying to deal with if it has even a marginally faster plane than you...

WTE_Galway
07-06-2010, 06:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ba5tard5word:
I've got the itch to fly a good campaign and I do like planes like the B-239 and I-16 and so on.

Are there good campaigns anyone knows of for the Winter War or the Continuation War? I'd like to do stuff where you're flying planes that match up well like the B-239 and I-16, I'm not so much into stuff like flying a B-239 against a Yak-1B like in the stock missions that come with Il-2, I know they did stuff like that in real life but the AI is really too annoying to deal with if it has even a marginally faster plane than you... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Peter Kempf has done a few.

http://mission4today.com/index...s&file=search&sa=740 (http://mission4today.com/index.php?name=Downloads&file=search&sa=740)

This one features the Fokker D.XXI

http://mission4today.com/index...file=details&id=3782 (http://mission4today.com/index.php?name=Downloads&file=details&id=3782)

I have also seen reference to a B239 campaign of his called "Fighting the Lend Lease" but no idea where to download it.

Ditchinit
07-06-2010, 07:22 PM
I've been enjoying the stock DGEN continuation war while flying a B-239. I've been doing the full set, and am currently in the second of the series. That little bird sure knows how to turn on a nickle. I-16s don't stand much chance against a B-239 with four 50 cals.

My favorite tactic (gosh, I hope this isn't considered cheating) is to listen in on the enemy's radio frequency to get an idea of their cruise height, and then I take my flight up higher to cruise on top by another 2000-4000 ft so that we have an energy advantage when we meet. This gives a high speed diving first pass at a wingman and then at his leader from a rapidly closing 6 o'clock high. That helps a lot with knocking down the initial numbers of MiGs, Yaks and LaGGs. The other trick is to not chase them up into the stratosphere and get them to fight on your terms down low where they are disadvantaged in a turn fight. Or let the AI idiots chase the ones up top while you go on to slash up the flight of bombers they were supposed to be escorting.

Good luck. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Ba5tard5word
07-06-2010, 08:07 PM
Thanks for the link Galway, this one could be promising:

http://mission4today.com/index...file=details&id=3329 (http://mission4today.com/index.php?name=Downloads&file=details&id=3329)


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ditchinit:
I've been enjoying the stock DGEN continuation war while flying a B-239. I've been doing the full set, and am currently in the second of the series. That little bird sure knows how to turn on a nickle. I-16s don't stand much chance against a B-239 with four 50 cals.

My favorite tactic (gosh, I hope this isn't considered cheating) is to listen in on the enemy's radio frequency to get an idea of their cruise height, and then I take my flight up higher to cruise on top by another 2000-4000 ft so that we have an energy advantage when we meet. This gives a high speed diving first pass at a wingman and then at his leader from a rapidly closing 6 o'clock high. That helps a lot with knocking down the initial numbers of MiGs, Yaks and LaGGs. The other trick is to not chase them up into the stratosphere and get them to fight on your terms down low where they are disadvantaged in a turn fight. Or let the AI idiots chase the ones up top while you go on to slash up the flight of bombers they were supposed to be escorting.

Good luck. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've never been able to get these figured out. Do they require a mod? If not can you tell me how to get them to run?

Ditchinit
07-06-2010, 08:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ba5tard5word:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ditchinit:
I've been enjoying the stock DGEN continuation war while flying a B-239. I've been doing the full set, and am currently in the second of the series. That little bird sure knows how to turn on a nickle. I-16s don't stand much chance against a B-239 with four 50 cals.

My favorite tactic (gosh, I hope this isn't considered cheating) is to listen in on the enemy's radio frequency to get an idea of their cruise height, and then I take my flight up higher to cruise on top by another 2000-4000 ft so that we have an energy advantage when we meet. This gives a high speed diving first pass at a wingman and then at his leader from a rapidly closing 6 o'clock high. That helps a lot with knocking down the initial numbers of MiGs, Yaks and LaGGs. The other trick is to not chase them up into the stratosphere and get them to fight on your terms down low where they are disadvantaged in a turn fight. Or let the AI idiots chase the ones up top while you go on to slash up the flight of bombers they were supposed to be escorting.

Good luck. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've never been able to get these figured out. Do they require a mod? If not can you tell me how to get them to run? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't understand. You can fly the B-239 for Finland in plain old vanilla 4.09m (no mods required) in the Continuation War I through IV (it's the only Finnish fighter campaign available without mods) ... just select the B-239 from the drop down box for the choice of aircraft in Continuation War 1941. The default is a J8A, but you could choose to fly that one, a G.50, a B-239, or a Hurricane Mk.I. You can also select the aircraft available for the other three sections by choosing them from their respective drop-down boxes. Then launch with the first one and fly your assigned missions. I started at Luutnantti rank, which put me in the number 5 position. The first Continuation War chapter is nice because, if you're somewhat successful in the air, you get to see the lines of the front close in on Leningrad as the outlying towns and cities get overrun by Fins and Germans. It gives a sense of accomplishment and contribution to the overall war effort. The second section (the one I'm in currently) seems to be more defensive oriented ... to hold the ground taken in the first section.

Treetop64
07-06-2010, 09:45 PM
I like the Finland and Leningrad campaigns that come with the EnjoyR package, along with the tons of skins that can be downloaded with it.

Erkki_M
07-07-2010, 04:05 AM
If you are really interested, visit www.virtualpilots.fi (http://www.virtualpilots.fi) and check out the history part. Lots of stuff there, including Hans Wind's lectures on Brewster fighter tactics(in English as well).

Main fighters in the beginning of the Continuation War were B-239 and Hawk 75, about equal number of them (45-ish each). G.50 and MS.406s were used by a sole squad(a dozen) each together with a sole wing of I-153s(!) - however stuff like Hurricane and LaGG saw very little service. Bf 109 G-2s entered service in March 43, grand total of about 155 G-2s and G-6s, some G-6s would see service to mid 1950s.

Of bombers, Bristol Blenheim was imported and built with a license in numbers, more than 200 of them. Later in the war, the Germans also exported some 40 old battle of britain era Ju-88 A-4s. Ex-Soviet Pe-2s, Pe-3s as well as SB-2s and DB-3s were popular, first in reconnaissance and spec ops missions, latter in maritime patrol and anti-sub role, in which they were very good.

Soviets used the Leningrad theater as some kind of "practice theater" for their Army and Navy air forces, meaning Brewster had it "easy" early against the Hurricanes, I-153 and I-16s(note, in real life, very few I-16s and no I-153s in operational use had cannons). However in early 43 the 3rd and 4th GvIAPs appeared to the front, and at the morning of Vyborg-Petroskoi offensive Finnish air force would have 6 Bf 109s in operational condition in the Karelian Isthmus, against more than a thousand soviet fighters and Il-2s between front and Leningrad only.


I have made a small coop campaign of the LeLv34's missions from Kymi air base in 1943, excluding recce and torpedo bomber chases and some 2-3 plane skirmishes that resulted in no losses for either side.

DKoor
07-07-2010, 05:05 AM
B.239 is ugliest piece of flying crate that flew over that front yet it is one of the... wait, it is the most pleasant plane to fly and fight in.... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I flew everything on that north front on all sides, from sturmos, 109s, early VVS crates, bombers (TB-3, Ju-88s etc.), Hurricanes all types, P-47s (they really flew therehttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif), even moded MS.406s and Hawks, no other plane felt so good as Brewster.

About campaigns... I don't know I flew stock dynamics but enjoyed them http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif .

x6BL_Brando
07-07-2010, 06:19 AM
Your co-op campaign is very enjoyable, Erkki_M! Thank you for the work.

B

Erkki_M
07-08-2010, 04:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by x6BL_Brando:
Your co-op campaign is very enjoyable, Erkki_M! Thank you for the work.

B </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good to see at least someone liked it! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Single or multi?

Friendly_flyer
07-08-2010, 11:44 AM
The stock campaigns are quite good, and the little Brewster is an entertaining plane to fly.

Ba5tard5word
09-17-2010, 03:44 PM
Well I have been making some Finnish missions where you fly as a Hurricane then a Buffalo against Russian planes like I-15's, I-153's and I-16's. I really don't know if it would fit in the Winter War or only in the Continuation War because really I don't know a lot about either conflict, I have done some reading a year or so ago but I can't remember what I learned. One thing I know is that the Finns would often fly two planes high and two planes low to try and trap less experienced Russian fighters, so I'd like to put that sort of thing in some missions though I don't know what altitudes would be used.

For one thing I really want to only have planes that can be in a fair fight against one another given Il-2's AI, so unfortunately that means no LaGG's or La-5's or whatever--if you give the AI faster planes than the player's, then even at Rookie AI they will just rocket off away from you and never overheat, it's just too frustrating I think and a real limitation of Il-2.

So I have some other fairly broad questions that I'd like to ask so I can figure out what kinds of missions to make:

a) What main planes were used in the Winter War compared with the Continuation War? I have a general idea but I don't know if there were planes used in the WW that weren't in the CW. Were Buffalos and Hurricanes used in the WW or just in the CW? And when the Finns started using Bf-109G's, what Russian planes did they mainly face?

b) Did the Finns use the Hurricanes before the Buffalos, or did they come out at about the same time? The Hurricane I seems like a more primitive plane to me--slower and weaker armament--so I would assume the Buffalo would have been seen as better by the Finns but I really don't know.

c) What parts of the maps that we have available would a lot of conflicts happen near? Murmansk? The Eastern or Western Gulf of Finland? UP has one new Finland map which seems to be a smaller version of the Gulf of Finland map.

d) What was the typical size of air battles in the WW and CW? Dozens of planes battling it out? Or just groups of 5 against 3 or whatever? I know the Finns were pretty much always at a disadvantage in numbers and I'm not sure how to deal with that considering that even Rookie AI can be too much to deal with if you give them large numbers.

Anyway thanks in advance. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif I don't know if I'd ever want to release this as a campaign but if I like the missions I make, I might. I expect it would be modded though, but I guess I could avoid the mod map and the modded I-15's/I-16's and release a non-mod version.

Ba5tard5word
09-17-2010, 04:07 PM
Oh and let me know if you can think of anything in Ultrapack 2.1 that would improve missions over a non-modded version. All I can think of that would fit is the new Finnish map (which is just kind of duplicative of the current Gulf map) and the mod I-15's and I-16's, though I guess 4.09m has some of those anyway. Plus we have the Fokker thingy which I find frustrating to fly even against I-15's because of its cheesy armament but I'm sure I could find something to do with it.

And heck maybe I could make a flipside campaign where you fly as a Russian pilot, that could be fun too.

JtD
09-17-2010, 10:50 PM
The Finns give a pretty good overview over their air force in their wiki, if you can't figure it out a google translate will clarify things.

winter war (http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talvisodan_ilmasotatoimet)

air force overview (http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suomen_ilmavoimien_historia)

Ba5tard5word
09-18-2010, 12:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JtD:
The Finns give a pretty good overview over their air force in their wiki, if you can't figure it out a google translate will clarify things.

winter war (http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talvisodan_ilmasotatoimet)

air force overview (http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suomen_ilmavoimien_historia) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for the tip. Google Translate didn't do a great job (Booty Machines? LOL) but at least I got some plane numbers and some more ideas. Sounds like Viipurii was a major bombing target, maybe I could center the campaign around its defense.

Erkki_M
09-19-2010, 03:28 AM
Yes, unfortunately majority of the Finnish aviational literature is not translated to other languages... About 99% of it.

You can divide the continuation war into 3 phases: advance in summer and fall 1941, mostly stabile "trenchwar" from 42 to early spring of 44, and the massive Vyborg-Pedrozavodsk offensive to the end of the war in fall 44.

In the beginning, operational fighter squadrons used Brewster and Hawk 75 as main fighters (40+ of each), with, if I remember right, 2 MS406 wings and 1 G.50. No FiAF fighter units were in Lapland, it was left for the Luftwaffe (map of Murmansk in il2). Hawks were mainly used in East Karelia (NE of Lake Ladoga, or Laatokka), but the most famous Brewster unit LeLv24 flew from Suulajärvi, which you can find in the Gulf of Finland map. Its southwest to a funny-shaped lake in the middle of the Isthmus.

First Bf 109 G-2s arrived in March 43, and were given to the newly formed LeLv34. They would first use Malmi(Helsinki) and Utti airbases, but from mid 43 it had wings in Malmi, Kymi(Kotka) and Suulajärvi with LeLv24's Brewsters. They mainly fought against Il-2s, LaGGs and La-5s at the sea front, and more of the same stuff + yaks(that were used for DCA CAPs and base protection). In early 44, LeLv24 would also get its 109s, and 34 switched to G-6s. But because G-6 sucks in game, you might want to keep using G-2 instead. Some planes arrived armed with gun gondolas, and even used in combat before they were removed, but those incidents can be counted with one hand.

The air battles were typically flights or wings engaging typically a similarly numbered or superior soviet force. In summer 44 however, the Soviets would fly easily over a thousand sorties a day, though. Soviets considered the Finnish front a "secondary front", and until 43 used secondary hardware such as I-15, I-153, I-16 and Hurricane. In summer 44 VVS fighters were apparently solely LaGGs, Jak-9s, some La-5s and lots of P-39s (with some Q-1s as well). The Soviets used at least Hurricane Mk. I. Also I-16 type 24 in real life didnt have cannons, model 28 did.... You might want to use type 18 instead, as a more historical (and matching) opponent for Brewster.

Ba5tard5word
09-19-2010, 11:11 AM
Thanks again for the tips Erkki, I'll try and implement them into the campaign.

I tried the "Fighting the Lend Lease" campaign and did a couple missions, it seems to set you on the Murmansk map at the airfield in the SW corner.

Also UP 2.1 has the Svir map, which I guess is the Svir River area northeast of Lake Ladoga and south of Petrozavodsk. Would this have been an area of contention between Finland and Russia? I guess it was the area overseen by the Hawks but unfortunately even in UP we can't fly them without a P-40 cockpit.

dirkpit7
09-21-2010, 02:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ba5tard5word:
Also UP 2.1 has the Svir map, which I guess is the Svir River area northeast of Lake Ladoga and south of Petrozavodsk. Would this have been an area of contention between Finland and Russia? I guess it was the area overseen by the Hawks but unfortunately even in UP we can't fly them without a P-40 cockpit. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Indeed it would. Finns reached the Svir as a result of their advance in the first months of the Cont. War, but halted their offensive soon after, so that is where the front stabilized until the Soviet offensive in the summer of 1944.

Ba5tard5word
09-21-2010, 03:28 PM
Well for now I think what I'll do is focus on the Winter War. I guess I can have a lot of fighting over the Mannerheim line for the first few months with some defense against Russian bombers trying to make it to places like Viipuri, then the big battles in 1940 where the Russians broke past the Line and went further north.

Here are some screenies from a mission I made a couple days ago which is pretty fun, you fly a Fokker in a group of 10 against 16 Russian DB-3 bombers. I think I might reduce the Finnish numbers a bit to make it tougher, though I can only shoot down about 4 bombers with the Sarja version of the Fokker before my ammo runs out. They set on fire pretty easily.

The Fokkers flying in formation:

http://img842.imageshack.us/img842/8609/grab0000.jpg

The Fokkers spot the bombers and dive in...

http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/2976/grab0001bu.jpg

A bomber I managed to set on fire...

http://img704.imageshack.us/img704/1285/grab0003.jpg

Slowly but surely the Fokkers win the day...

http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/2966/grab0004.jpg

Back to base...all in a day's work!

http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/891/grab0005.jpg

Ba5tard5word
09-21-2010, 03:31 PM
Also here is an interesting page of Winter War photos I found while looking for some Mannerheim Line maps...

http://www.mannerheim-line.com/kahonen/gallery.htm

And a funny Russian propaganda poster about the Line.

http://www.sovmusic.ru/jpg/posters/ussr0253.jpg

Ba5tard5word
09-21-2010, 03:51 PM
Here's an attempt at showing the Mannerheim Line on the Gulf of Finland map...hopefully I got it right.

http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/9184/grab0000v.jpg

I got it from this, I can't tell if Taipale was north or south of it though.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e4/Mannerheim-line.png

VW-IceFire
09-21-2010, 04:05 PM
Looks good!

I find with placing front line markers that it's excellent to be accurate but there is a point of diminishing returns as all but the most experienced historian will even notice that you messed up on the frontline a tiny bit.

Still the attention to detail I always appreciate in a campaign.

Ba5tard5word
09-21-2010, 08:45 PM
Thanks Icefire.

Got another question, hopefully pretty easy: what altitude did most Russian bombers fly at when doing bomber runs? I've just guessed and put them at 1000 to 4000 meters up.

Viikate_
09-21-2010, 11:08 PM
Wrong Fokker. Sarja (series) 4 wasn't avaliable during Winter War. Also the yellow eastern front markings were not used during Winter War.

Ba5tard5word
09-22-2010, 12:12 AM
lol.

Well which Fokker was used? I don't really like flying the other ones because they have the dumb telescope sights that are horrible to use. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Viikate_
09-22-2010, 04:25 AM
That flyable series 4 Fokker is a mod which has wrong cockpit. Series 4 had completely re-designed pit and pretty much all parts were different. Correct Winter War Fokker is sarja 3 "early". It can have both tube & reflector sights (it help is you read the 4.09 pdf manual) http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

Download this skinpack and extract all files to the correct folders.

http://www.simmerspaintshop.co...kate/FokkerSkins.zip (http://www.simmerspaintshop.com/%7Eviikate/FokkerSkins.zip)

Zip has skins with historically correct sights. So if you take for example FR-110, you get Revi.

il2battle
09-22-2010, 04:25 AM
Hey.

I think you should use Fokker Sarja 3 Early in winter war. It seems that it didn't have easter front markings in default skin (yellow marks), which came with the Germans, begin of the continuation war.

There is that Customization.ini file in skin folder, which should give you to able to change something, like telescope sight to "normal" sight. Although I didn't remember what to do with it - change what ? There was instruction for it, but couldn't find it.

Your frontline seems to be about alright, but I think you should drag it to the Taipale. Follow the waterline, like you have done now, about Riiska and then up to Taipale and about 45-50* to up through to Laatokka.

I though you have been looking maps in wikipedia and you can see the front been in Taipale. Although couldn't say, if it go through it or above or below.
Anyway, begin from 6.12-39 and all the way to the end, there was heavy figths in Taipale, which holds. 14.2-40 western front breaks and get order to retreat. In map you can find Äyräpää, which was one of the places where line retreat. Fights continue to 26.2-40 in that line and after that came order to retreat to line in Viipuri. Still Taipale holds. (These ain't from wiki, but the little book I have.)

About flying altitude, only thing I have find is that they fly low, so your altitude thoughs should be right. Second thing is that Russians ain't use escort figters at the begining at all, but start use them later when losing too much bombers. Another point is, that Finnish fighters were too slow to catch the bombers, which use them speed to get away. So the only tactic was to get higher and dive after the bombers, when find them. Yet another point, which Finnish bombers use, was that after the bombing they fly back with high speed and low altitude. Could be about samekind tactic, what Russians use, atleast you could think that this work agains early figters and maybe AA's has harder time to shoot and hit them in real life.

And when you think about, where to make Russian bombers to attack, there are good files in net, which tell you about all the citys Russians bomb and how many times and when (mostly). But any city and especially factory or citys with trailroads fits, ofcourse. Although Russian air force have the order not to bomb unmilitary targets and that was from them higher commanders, maybe even from Stalin order. As you know the though was to connect Finland to Russia and Stalin has get the promise that Finnish ain't fight back so hard, only few white minded could do that, but the red minded ain't. These promises was from Russian intelligence and from Kuusisto coverment from Terijoki, which Stalin has nomination to be Finlands coverment and Stalin ain't accredit Finlands true coverment at begining. Although he change his mind later.

Hope this helps and give you some thoughs and there are not much spelling errors.

Ba5tard5word
09-22-2010, 12:39 PM
Thanks guys. I think I'll try and post the basic outlines of the missions tonight and you can tell me if you think they would work--what types of planes on each side, what part of the map, etc.

And yeah I noticed that if I have the Russian DB-3 bombers fly at 300kph, the Fokkers can't really keep up with them at all. I set them to 200kph instead which makes it work, but I guess that is unrealistic. DB-3's are nice to fight against though with the Fokker because they set on fire really easily.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Viikate_:
That flyable series 4 Fokker is a mod which has wrong cockpit. Series 4 had completely re-designed pit and pretty much all parts were different. Correct Winter War Fokker is sarja 3 "early". It can have both tube & reflector sights (it help is you read the 4.09 pdf manual) http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

Download this skinpack and extract all files to the correct folders.

http://www.simmerspaintshop.co...kate/FokkerSkins.zip (http://www.simmerspaintshop.com/%7Eviikate/FokkerSkins.zip)

Zip has skins with historically correct sights. So if you take for example FR-110, you get Revi. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah I knew that you'd randomly get either a telescope or a reflector sight.

So there's a way for certain skins to force you to get reflector sights? That would be awesome...I'll check it out tonight.

Ba5tard5word
09-22-2010, 09:41 PM
Ok this is what I have for now. These are the basic outlines for the missions. I need to rearrange them a bunch, for instance I have some on the Svir or Murmansk maps but I want to put them by the Mannerheim Line instead.

Mission 1: Player is in group of 4 Fokker DXII's taking off near Viipuri. Mission is to shoot down 6 DB-3 bombers coming in at 1500m to bomb Viipuri.

Mission 2: Players is in group of 2 Fokkers. Mission is to shoot down 4 DB-3's at 1000m. [location to be determined]

Mission 3: player is in group of 10 Fokkers sent up to shoot down 16 DB-3's at 1500m.

Mission 4: Player is in group of 2 Hurricanes who take off and are bounced by 4 I-15bis on skis and 1 I-16 type 6 on skis.

Mission 5: Player is in group of 2 Hurricanes sent up to shoot down 8 DB-3's at 2000m up. 4 Fiat G.50's are after the same bombers.

Mission 6: Player in 3 Buffalos that take off just as 4 I-153's with rockets come in to attack the airfield, followed by 4 I-16's that come in for dogfighting. 3 DXXI's come in from the North to help the Buffalos a few minutes into the mission.

Mission 7: Player is in group of two Buffalos sent to fly patrol in a circle around Viipuri. Your flight is to fly at 500m up while another group of 2 Buffalos flies overhead at 2000m. As you do patrol you come across 4 I-16 type 18's to the southeast. Later two I-16's come in from the north.

Mission 8: 4 Buffalos are sent up to shoot down 8 SB 2M-103 bombers coming from the south to bomb the Buffalos' airfield at 3000m.

Mission 9: 4 Buffalos take off from Kolkkala to shoot down 8 TB bombers which are escorted by 2 I-16's. Two Fiat G.50's come in from the north later on to help out.



Anyway this is just a blueprint but I want to try and get it about as realistic as I can before I start doing the hard work of setting up buildings on the ground and other details that take a while to put together.

dirkpit7
09-23-2010, 07:14 AM
Just remember, Hurricanes and Brewsters were not used in the Winter War: just the Fokkers. That was all that the FAF had at the time when it comes to frontline fighters.

Ba5tard5word
09-23-2010, 10:14 AM
Jeez, seriously? I went from this page which lists some Hurricanes and Buffalos [http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talvisodan_ilmasotatoimet] but now that I looked into some of the squadrons I guess they only got Buffalos and Hurricanes at the very end of the Winter War though it's kind of hard to tell what the Finnish page says with Google Translate.

JG53Frankyboy
09-23-2010, 10:47 AM
for me this site
http://www.sci.fi/~ambush/faf/fafincolor.html (http://www.sci.fi/%7Eambush/faf/fafincolor.html)
is always helpfull.
sure not knowing how reliable it is !!

according to it you can use for winterwarmissions the FIATG.50, Gloster J8A and Fokker XXI as flyable and Gladiators ans MS406 as AI- speaking about an unmodded IL2 !

il2battle
09-23-2010, 12:03 PM
Hey.

"Lentolaivue 22 /10 Hawker Hurricane, 5 Brewster B.239 /Hollola

Lentolaivue 22 ei ehtinyt taistelutoimiin talvisotaan"

Well actually it says about "Lentolaivue 22 ain't see action in winterwar"
(they didn't make in time to winterwar, because late delivery of the planes or get them in action ready.)
(edit: Hurricanes ain't make in time to winterwar, but Brewsters been in Finland. Although only 5 been in action ready, but even those ones ain't be use in action.)

You can use:

Fokker D.XXI (early model as main fighter)
M.S.406 (came in february -40)
S.328 (hack as Fokker C.V)
G.50
J8A (january -40)
Blenheim

+what mods have.

Finland use everything what they have to every job they need to, but ofcourse it ain't easy to use slow fighters to intercept the faster bombers. Anyway when they catch the bombers and get in action enemy suffer heavy loses. (well no escorts to bother)

One interesting thing been, that Finnish ain't get all to bombs in blenheims, but add one more member with Finnish-machinegun, who shoot the enemy groups and vehicles whos hiding side of the roads on the ground.

Your missions ain't sound bad at all, just change the Finnish plane types and maybe you could keep in mind, that Russia could use 1000 planes in everyday.
Well this front was the only one for Russia in that time. Later when Germany attack, Finland front change to be secondary front for Russians and that's why they still keep using old plane types in Finland front. Ofcourse when they get build up more new planes they could send some of them in Finland front too. This thing change later in -44, when Stalin wants to get rid of Finland front, so he can get everything against the Germans.

About samekind thing happen in winterwar, but because of western countrys, more like British, whos already planning to attack into Russia (through Finland), but this could be like secondary thing or excuse, because they been more interesting about mines and harbors in Sweden and Norway like Germany was.
Anyway this makes Stalin to want to end winterwar, but still keep mighty redarmy face clear. So this means Finnish need to force to ask for pease and redarmy get this job. And they make it to happen.

Good luck for your campaing.

Ba5tard5word
09-23-2010, 01:03 PM
Yeah I guess I will just rearrange the missions so they only have the Fokkers. What air base or bases did the Fokkers generally fly out of during the Winter War?

Also I'll give that existing Fokker campaign a try because I don't want to do something if it's exactly like something that already exists, I was hoping I'd add something new with Buffalos and Hurricanes but obviously that would be historically ridiculous. I guess I'll save them for maybe a Continuation War campaign.

But also I'm thinking about doing a short Russian Winter War campaign. The mod I-15 bis is rather annoying to fly though because it keeps wanting to pull up but mainly because it has a weird pipe right in front of the gunsights that makes it hard to line up shots. I don't know if that is based on reality but it seems like a dumb thing to do. The I-153 doesn't have that issue though.

il2battle
09-23-2010, 02:18 PM
Well bases are little bit difficult, but see this:

Immola - not in map
Lappeenranta AW22
Suur-Merijoki AZ19
Joutseno - not in map
Ristiina - not in map
Lemi - not in map, but been middle of Lappeenranta and Luumäki, just little bit higher.

"Etteivät neuvostoliittolaiset voisi tuhota koneita maassa, suomalaiset koneet oli hajautettu useille kentille tai metsiin. Neuvostoliiton hyökkäykset kentille eivät olleet tehokkaita. Talvisodan lopussa suomalaiset hävittäjät ja pommittajat tekivät rynnäkkötehtäviä neuvostoliittolaista jalkaväkeä ja maamaaleja vastaan, varsinkin Viipurinlahdella."

Just because Russians couldn't destroy planes on the ground, Finnish planes were scattered different bases and into forest. Russians attacks against bases were not effectived. At the end of winterwar Finnish fighters and bombers made ground attacks against Russians infantry and ground targets, especially in bay of Vyiborg.

So if you want you could even made your own base near some forest. Or use frozen lake as temporary airstrip.

Although I don't mind, if you use any base on the map.
I have play only one Finnish Fokker campaign and not been found any more of them yet, so there ain't too many of them, if never going to be.

dirkpit7
09-23-2010, 02:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by il2battle:
So if you want you could even made your own base near some forest. Or use frozen lake as temporary airstrip. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's a cool idea. I have always loved pictures of FAF planes on their often primitive looking fields during winter. Setting up your own airfield in the forest might convey the feeling.

http://www.saunalahti.fi/fta/luukk1m.jpg

Too bad I can't play your campaign as I'm away from home and my computer until next summer (on student exchange in Ireland), but good luck for your project.

P.S. The man in the above picture is Eino Luukkanen, one of the most famous Finnish pilots in WW2. If I may offer an idea, slip some names in your briefings to add authenticity. Here are some in addition to Luukkanen:

G. E. "Eka" Magnusson, leader of LLv24 (the Fokker squadron)

Ilmari "Illu" Juutilainen
Jorma "Joppe" Karhunen - both were pilots of the LLv24

The FAF was a really small force, and it would be quite realistic to run into these well known characters.

Ba5tard5word
09-23-2010, 08:13 PM
Well actually I am playing the Fight for Survival (http://mission4today.com/index.php?name=Downloads&file=details&id=3782) campaign listed earlier in this topic and it pretty much does what I wanted to do. It is only 8 missions long though so maybe I could get away with a Winter War campaign of my own. I like the idea of a fighter base in the woods or on the ice though! I will definitely try and do that.

Ba5tard5word
09-23-2010, 08:29 PM
Also does the DXXI 3-early just not have radiator flaps or changeable prop pitch? Sort of weird. What do you do if you're in a steep dive, try and avoid it?

JG53Frankyboy
09-24-2010, 03:03 AM
engine to idle