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bazzaah2
06-23-2004, 05:23 AM
I was browsing through a neat book about German aces and the author wanted to illustrate why roll rate is useful (then realised I was late and had to rush off for urgent pints). He indicated that a good technique used by slower turning but fast rolling planes against faster turing opponents was the vector roll

So was he right to say that a well executed vector roll can negate a turn rate advantage?

Curious to know what y'all think...if anyone can tell me how to do one, that'd be great. Thanks!

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bazzaah2
06-23-2004, 05:23 AM
I was browsing through a neat book about German aces and the author wanted to illustrate why roll rate is useful (then realised I was late and had to rush off for urgent pints). He indicated that a good technique used by slower turning but fast rolling planes against faster turing opponents was the vector roll

So was he right to say that a well executed vector roll can negate a turn rate advantage?

Curious to know what y'all think...if anyone can tell me how to do one, that'd be great. Thanks!

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Koan___
06-23-2004, 06:14 AM
Excuse me my ignorance but what is a vector roll?

bazzaah2
06-23-2004, 06:22 AM
I think that it's a way of using superior roll rate to cancel out an opponent's superior turn rate in a turning encounter. So, e.g., a FW190 pilot might use a vector roll to keep on a Yak's 6 if the Yak pilot is exploiting his turn rate to evade the 190.

But that's all I know really, hence the question, and am hoping that someone will help out with a good explanation/description. Please?

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HART_dreyer
06-23-2004, 06:32 AM
If my understating of it is correct, lets say you are in a 109 on somebody's 6 (a better turning aircraft), you'll then instead of committing to the turn go vertical in the turn, roll over and then come down at a different point in the turning circle for a deflection shot. I don't see how a fast roll-rate will help you tremendously in this maneuver however so I'm probably wrong. If this is not what vector rolling is I'd sure like to see the real thing! (Because it doesn't make any sense http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif)

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bazzaah2
06-23-2004, 06:43 AM
gaaah! I was hoping to do some work on my thesis today but may have to pop over to the bookshop instead! I'd have thought that it would be something like a high yo yo, but the diagram had plenty of rolling in it....anyone else know off hand?

Like you, I don't see that rolling would help you against a better turning opponent as obviously mobility is around the rolling plane's axis...(scratches head), but if combined with a yo yo may help get into position on 6 a little quicker, and take the edge off opponent's superior turn rate that way?

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Fehler
06-23-2004, 06:47 AM
Vector roll: Here's how it works.

Take a superior rolling plane versus a superior turner. For our example we will match up the Spitfire and the FW190.

Let's say the 190 is on the tail of the spit, but cant pull lead because the Spit is turning inside of the 190 (Which it should!).

The 190 has the option (Since his roll rate is superior) to roll in the opposite direction of the turn. This will cause him to basically roll under the Spit's circle. The the 190 can pull back up for a deflection shot on the Spit as he (The Spit) comes about.

The 190 will appear to turn inside the Spit during this move, but infact all he is really doing is allowing gravity and roll to pull him to a position where he can then pull nose up for a firing solution.

On the defense (And I sure hate to give out this information as I am a dedicated 190 jock) the Spit merely needs to go into a rolling scissors defense, thus thwarting the 190's deflection shot. If the Spit is lucky, the 190 will follow him through the rolling scissors and the Spit will quickly gain the advantage or at least negate any advantage the 190 created with his roll rate. -OR- The spit driver, realizing the 190's attack plan, can release his turn slightly to increase speed and distance on the 190. The first defense is preffered in my opinion because the Spit can force a reversal rather easy in this situation. The latter example keeps the Spit on the defensive, and defensive fighting = short life for a fighter pilot.

On the other side of the coin, the 190 driver, seeing he is being suckered into a rolling scissors fight, should counter with a shallow angle dive and extension. The Spit may or may not bleed enough energy to allow the 190 to gain an speed advantage which he can then convert to altitude and once again be in a position to put the fight back on his terms.

It is not too tricky to pull off, but the limiting factor in this sim is visibility. In real life, the 190 would be able to tilt his head enough to see where he needs to pull deflection during the first stage of the move. The other factor (In my opinion) is that aircraft roll too well currently, so an historical advantage may not actually exist where it did in real life.

I have used this move both on and offline and had marginal success with it.

The other aircraft that could pull this maneuver historically was the P-47. Eliptical wing Spitfires were not good at this move, especially against the 190 in real life.

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bazzaah2
06-23-2004, 06:56 AM
cool, thanks Fehler!

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Fehler
06-23-2004, 07:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bazzaah2:
gaaah! I was hoping to do some work on my thesis today but may have to pop over to the bookshop instead! I'd have thought that it would be something like a high yo yo, but the diagram had plenty of rolling in it....anyone else know off hand?

Like you, I don't see that rolling would help you against a better turning opponent as obviously mobility is around the rolling plane's axis...(scratches head), but if combined with a yo yo may help get into position on 6 a little quicker, and take the edge off opponent's superior turn rate that way?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Perhaps you dont realize that when you roll, your aircraft loses altitude as well. With that altitude loss, you will gain energy (Speed). Because of the fast roll rate of the 190 in my illustration, you will lose less energy than the energy you gain with altitude drop, or your energy will remain the same. You have then turned you initial circle into an ellipse and maintained energy to pull deflection on the spit. If you shoot accurately, you will score hits or even a kill because you should be coming back up in a position where the Spit will fly through your bullets (Engine cowling, or even cockpit hits). You could then extend briefly and go into a high yoyo. The spit would have to either continue his turn to come about on you (Thus bleeding more energy without a way to replenish it) or change direction of his turn completely (Still bleeding more energy than you) giving you a chance to extend slightly and set up for another attack.

This is not a great defensive maneuver if you are the lead plane because you will give the Spit the opportunity to merely high yoyo initially and come right back down on your 6 as you pull up. Your best bet if you are the 190 and defensive here is to roll away and split S in an attempt to use your superior dive speed to try and get away.

Clear as mud? Though so.. hehe

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bazzaah2
06-23-2004, 07:02 AM
Re your point on defensive, the 190 would have an advantage in the rolling scissors as well, no? Either way, sounds like it's the kind of move that can be used to change the nature of engagement to suit the better roller. Thx!

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bazzaah2
06-23-2004, 07:07 AM
Understood thanks!

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Fehler
06-23-2004, 07:12 AM
Oh, another note. The real trick to pulling either of these maneuvers off is good judgement of the other guy's energy state. Knowing when to pull the trigger or when to hold your cards is the toughest part and can only come with practice.

I am not declaring that I am the best at this maneuver.. far from it. Again, I have had only marginal success on and off line using it, but when properly executed you will certainly get a woody! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif And if the guy isnt looking back while you are doing it, he will swear you just turned your 190 inside of his Spit and come here to whine.. LOL

For me, my hardest part of flying is trying to think three dimensionally. Being a creature of gravity, I tend to thing in north, south, east west, and not in N,S,E,W, and height.

There is another way to turn inside a Spit, and that's the high yoyo. Of course you pull into a climb, roll over and come back down on the Spit. I have had a hard time with this since AEP because the stall characteristics seemed to have changed in the game, and I just cant get the 190 to drive around the hammerhead like I used to. The P51 drives around the hammerhead at the top of the yoyo very nicely now, however, so that attack may be preferred if you were against, say a Zero.

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Fehler
06-23-2004, 07:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bazzaah2:
Re your point on defensive, the 190 would have an advantage in the rolling scissors as well, no? Either way, sounds like it's the kind of move that can be used to change the nature of engagement to suit the better roller. Thx!

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Initially, I would say yes. But once both energy states get low, the lower stalling aircraft (Spit) will gain the advantage and will then be in a position to dictate the fight.

I have never been a good rolling scissors fighter. I tend to misjudge my energy in this type of fight, but some good guys at this are Zen, Hunde, HeinzBar, and Rall (In the 190) and that blasted JimmyGiro in the allied aircraft. It's always fun to review tracks after flying in a dogfight server for a while with these guys on board. Some of them are simply nasty~

I prefer a simpler approach and if all else fails scream like a little school girl -AND/OR- hit &lt;Ctrl&gt;&lt;E&gt;! LOL

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bazzaah2
06-23-2004, 07:28 AM
exactly!

Can't fly online at mo but hope that'll change soon and thanks for the info! Good to understand how roll rate is useful...

I just crash, lol. Saves time!

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dieg777
06-23-2004, 08:45 AM
For more info read Andy Bushs articles-linked thro Tailspins pages-He illistrates how to use your lift vector to gain advantage in dogfights

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Henkie_
06-23-2004, 08:56 AM
Rolling away from the direction of the turn can only be good if you are inside the defenders turn already, in lead pursuit and you are overshooting. Then pulling up and rolling away from the turn is helping to fly a half barrel roll path around his flightpath and keep tally while you are flying upside down. And while inverted, the extra G when you pull down, can help for a quicker turnrate (in the vertical or oblique) so instead that you follow the defender with the same break turn, you roll away, out of plane, keep tally while you are upside down, and cut inside his horizontal circle with a vertical circle. Then after, you end in lead pursuit again. But again, I think it is only effective if you are inside his turn already and you overshoot.

And also I think that the difference in rollrate between the planes in AEP is not enough to make this a good advantage for better rolling planes. It can be a advantage for not so good turning planes because you can use the extra 1 G to help you turn quicker.

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karost
06-23-2004, 09:48 AM
vector roll is very classic play
in EAW can apply this tactic
but in this game stall characteristic is difference and hard to apply for online.

just see a real air show in V.D.0. for a stall turn or reverse with open smoke you will see that difference.



vector roll require a batter roll rate ,g-gravity and speed.

and I agree with Fehler http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


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please visit original source here:
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S!

[This message was edited by karost on Wed June 23 2004 at 09:05 AM.]

HQ1
06-23-2004, 09:50 AM
thank you for your explain Fehler.could you send us a track about how it works in offensive situation?
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HeinzBar
06-23-2004, 10:34 AM
S!,
I use the vector roll quite a bit to get a guns solution on fast turning spits and stangs. It takes a lot of practice and isn't always the best solution. Fehler is right in the first step to using the this tactic is to sum up your opponent. A cagey opponent, who is watching you, will climb and turn into your roll, thus negating you 'cutting the corner'. If your opponent is a spit or a fast moving stang, your best option is to extend away and reposition yourself.

I use a combination of Hi yo-yos and vector rolls to get my guns on a target. I also have a move in the fw190a series that I use a good bit. I don't know if it has a proper name or not, so I'll call it the Heinz method http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Take the same situation as before where the spit or p51 is turning horizontally to the left. You, in the fw190a, have to pull greater Gs to take a lead sight on the target. Unfortunately, this isn't always great due the fw190a's piss poor frontal view. In some situations you will find your target obsured by the nose or lower strut of the windscreen making an accurate deflection shot a wild guess. If this happens, I roll my fw190 90deg opposite of the horizontal turn. I then push the stick forward. This has the effect of pushing the nose to the left while the target will enter my gunsight from the top. I can then easily get a passing shot on the target if I time it right. It has taken me a long time to do this just right. I also need to say that w/ each patch I have to relearn this technique as the elevator authority seems to get a slight change too which usually causes a stall. A good thing about this trick is if you're unable to get your guns on the target, roll back to the left 90deg and extend out and up. This will put you back at a higher NRG state and safely away from the spit/stang.

I'll try to make a trk of this move.

HB

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Locust_
06-23-2004, 12:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HART_dreyer:
If my understating of it is correct, lets say you are in a 109 on somebody's 6 (a better turning aircraft), you'll then instead of committing to the turn go vertical in the turn, roll over and then come down at a different point in the turning circle for a deflection shot.

_http://www.dreyermachine.com/il2/_<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That sounds more like a High_Yoyo.....

Ive herd of this vector roll yet I cant explain it nor have I mastered it.......

Someone in the know give illistrations !!!

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El Turo
06-23-2004, 12:28 PM
Edit: Locust, it is in the diagram above as "rollaway"


This is one of my favorite manuevers.

Also known as the Lag Roll, Roll Away and Vector Roll..

I have almost always pulled up to initiate the manuever rather than just roll over and pull through as the transition into the vertical climb gives you a little bit more energy back in the "bank". This manuever is especially valuable for obtaining quick multiple gun passes on a single target that has a superior raw turn rate and/or is at an energy disadvantage (which is often equatable to the same thing, really).

So, by pulling up and performing a maximum-roll in the opposite direction, you change your relative position from "inside" his turning circle to "outside" his turning circle which gives you a renewed opportunity to pull back across his turning circle once more for a firing solution. The ONLY way to remain inside of his turning circle and attempt a firing solution is if you have a superior cornering aircraft and/or a slower airspeed/radius (generally speaking).

It is an aggressive move that can certainly backfire if not done precisely correct.. but once tamed it is a very nice trick to have up your sleeve in an engagement.

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JG14_Josf
06-23-2004, 12:40 PM
Search for Barrel roll attack (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?q=Y&a=tpc&s=400102&f=63110913&m=417107072&p=5)

This forum has a history on this subject.

Below is a cut and paste job from an earlier discussion on a related topic. The book titled "Boyd" by Robert Coram has a very good description of the Barrel Roll Attack. Boyd's description is included in the following :


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The Yo-Yo differs from the Barrel roll, or Lag displacement roll attack in that the direction of roll relative to the opponent changes from outside the targets turn and toward the targets turn in the case of a High Yo-Yo; but for a Barrel Roll there is a roll away from the targets turn from inside the targets turn instead.

The following is a description of the Barrel Roll attack from Boyd's Aerial Attack Study, my notes are in Brackets. Boyd's notes are in parenthesis:

1. Stalk your target and attempt to reduce angle-off as much as possible. [Line up behind the target] If this is impossible, employ the procedures outlined below.
[During a 6 o'clock bounce attack the target sees the attack coming and maneuvers to spoil the shot so a Barrel Roll Attack is prescribed]

2. Dive below and inside your opponent's turn radius, maintaining nose-tail separation throughout the maneuvers. [Don't get too close]
The dive below should be initiated far enough out so the forthcoming zoom may be played inside or outside the defenders turn.
[Get ready to zoom up well before the overshoot, maintain control of the fight, be pro-active and not simply reactive]

3. Pull up and zoom inside your opponent's turn radius if you feel he is not strongly oriented toward the scissors maneuver (sometimes this is difficult to determine). [This is a crucial moment during the attack. The wrong move by the attacker will favor the defender. At this time during the attack the target is out in front and nose high. The attacker is closing rapidly. The target is turning to make things difficult and spoil a tracking shot. Before the attacker gets too close he must now decide to either lead the target or lag behind the turning target. The wrong choice here can be costly for the attacker. The right choice here is the key to making the Barrel Roll Attack work. Boyd now describes how to Barrel Roll Attack a plane that does not reverse the original evasive turn. In this case the attacker leads the target with a turn inside the defenders turn radius and then the attacker pulls up into a zoom climb. The zoom climb must be done in time, before things get too close.]

4. Barrel-roll, nose-high, in a direction away from your opponent's turn. If he turns right, barrel-roll left, and vice versa. The roll will reduce vector velocity and the height of the yo-yo apex, yet maintain a higher aircraft velocity.
[Since a Barrel Roll Attack is made inside the opponents turn radius it should be clear how this attack differs from a yo-yo where the attack is made outside of the opponents turn radius. Going back to the crucial decision moment before the pull up; it should be clear that the attack is changed significantly when the attacker decides to lead the turning target. Looking out in front as the attacker closes on the target the attacker makes the decision to keep the target in his right hand view as the target turns left. The attacker maneuvers to a collision course, the attacker turns to fly ahead of the turning target as if the attack is meant to be a snap shot.]
[If the attack was planned as a high yo-yo the attacker would allow the target to pass from his right view to his left view before the attacker zooms up. The high yo-yo attack is made on the outside of the target's turn and the Barrel roll attack is made on the inside of the target's turn. Now it should be clear as to which way the attacker rolls his plane for a Barrel Roll Attack. Looking out in front the attacker has a target on his right side, the target is turning left. The attacker zooms up and rolls right keeping the target in his forward up view.]
[In other words the attacker is maneuvering to place his lift vector aimed at the target. Notice the difference at this time; if the attacker were to roll left as the target is going from the attacker's right view to the left view then the roll left and zoom would break visual contact. It may seem wrong to roll right as the target is passing from right to left it may seem quicker and better to roll left at this time so as to start turning sooner; it may seem as if rolling right is the long way around. It may seem, at this time, as if rolling right will delay the shot opportunity.]

[Going back to the crucial moment before the attacker closed the gap, going back to the time when the two planes were relatively far apart; the attacker could set up a High Yo-Yo and allow the turning target to pass from his front right view to his front left view and then the attacker can pitch up and roll left to keep his vector pointed at the target. Notice the difference? The Barrel Roll Attack is a move made by the attacker to turn inside the targets turn, to fly ahead of the target and then pitch up rolling opposite the targets turn to keep the target in view and to keep the lift vector pointed at the target. Why does this work?]

[Boyd says: "reduce vector velocity" My interpretation is that this means the maneuver avoids the problems of a snap shot where vector velocity is increasing rapidly and "reduce the height of the yo-yo apex" means that this maneuver is better than the outside yo-yo because the roll is done quickly with less zooming up and more energy is being spent toward maintaining the correct amount of separation.]
[Understand that a high yo-yo increases separation with more zoom and less geometrical advantage, which brings us to "yet maintain a higher aircraft velocity." The Barrel Roll Attack wastes less energy than the yo-yo since roll, pitch, and yaw are all simultaneously working toward gaining angles and maintaining just the right amount of separation. Picture a Barrel placed on the scene of this maneuver where the attacking plane goes around the barrel while the target plane is centered in the barrel. The target plane turns about 90 degrees inside the barrel while the attacking plane turns how much? The idea seems to be an adjustable lead turn. Rolling up and on top of the target sets up the correct amount of separation for a lead turn. The roll up and then over on top of the target changes the geometry from a increasing aspect snap shot into a nose to nose merge followed by a aileron directionally assisted out of plane early turn. The moment of overshoot is replaced by an oblique lead turn where the attacking plane is utilizing yaw, aileron, elevator, and geometry to gain angles against the opponent.]

5. Continue the roll and employ bottom rudder as the aircraft comes through the nose-high inverted position. This will provide a 270deg change of direction and place you with longitudinal separation, at a reduced angle off above your opponent, diving toward a six-o'clock-low position. The longitudinal separation will be less than that acquired from an ordinary yo-yo.
[Looking back at the imaginary barrel placed on the scene it should be clear that although the path around the barrel is longer than the turn inside the barrel the path around the barrel is more efficient. The target plane is using elevator and possibly some rudder input to make a 180 degree heading change. The Attacking plane is flying faster and cannot match the same elevator turn, let alone try to turn inside the slower plane turning horizontal. But the Attacking plane can use aileron elevator and rudder to scribe a line around the barrel to maintain just the right amount of separation, not too close and not to far away from the turning target.]
[As the target turns the attacking plane goes from a position abeam or to the side of the target then over the target and then behind the target and at all times the attacker is maintaining and then increasing angular or geometrical advantage because every input control is used to place the lift vector on the target at all times during the maneuver and the resulting expenditure of energy is vectored to point the attacking planes nose at the defending planes tail.]
[The attacking plane maintains just the right amount of separation and maintains just the right heading to maneuver into firing position and this happens to work out looking similar to scribing a line around a barrel where the target is inside the barrel. The problems of getting too close should be clear as are the problems of allowing too much separation. Think of the maneuver as being a solid steel bar connecting both planes that does not allow the attacking plane to get too close yet pulls the attacking plane around the target plane as the attacking plane scrubs off excess energy. The solid steel bar lifts the attacking plane during the approach and pulls the attacking plane around as the attacking plane overshoots. Think of the maneuver as if the target plane were a center point where the attacking plane flies around this center point up, over, around, and then back in. The idea is to maintain enough separation throughout the maneuver for the room needed to eventually turn into the target. Flying too close will remove the required room to turn in and flying too far away will allow the target to escape or reverse. Think of the Barrel as being a path around the target that allows the faster plane to travel a longer distance around the target yet maintain the proper heading or vector to continue his progress toward angular gains.]

[Boyd says: "employ bottom rudder" and on this point the maneuver is very difficult to understand for me, perhaps you can make more sense of the terminology. Yaw can direct the velocity vector just as the elevator can only not with as much effect since the elevator directs the lift force of the wings and the thrust of the engine whereas the rudder changes only the engines trust and any lift force created by the fuselage, and any combination of these forces. Picture the attacking pilot's perspective as he rolls to keep the target in his view. The attacking pilot maintains the target at his high 12 o'clock. How can yaw help in this task? What happens at the top of the barrel? Where is the target in the attackers forward up view; left, right or centered?]

6. Do not employ bottom rudder if your opponent rolls away from the turn and pulls up into the attack. Instead, employ top rudder and continue the roll from the inverted position. This will place you in a nose-high attitude at six-o'clock-low - a perfect set-up for a GAR-8 launch.
[At the start of the barrel roll the target is showing his canopy to the attacker. If the target reverses the turn at this point, such as would be done for a scissors maneuver, then the target would be showing his underside. The attacker is looking first at a plane passing from his right to his left during the initial zoom, as the attacker starts to roll, in this case rolling right; the target is now orbiting from right to up and right. Rudder and Yaw can be used to point the plane at the target with bottom rudder as the target appears on the right, but if the opponent reverses and if the opponent pitches up then the attacker should stop the yaw to the right and down and start yawing to the left and up since the target is now showing his low 6, turning the other way and going up.]

[I think the next segment of Boyd's description brings us back to the critical moment before the decision is made to go inside or outside of the targets turn. At this moment the attacker is again out of range and closing fast. The target has seen the attack coming and has started a defensive turn. For our example we claim that the target turns left, and the Attacker must decide if the target is going to continue turning left or left then right. The Attacker will cut off the left turn for a Barrel Roll Attack or:]

7. Pull up and zoom to the outside of your opponent's turn radius if you feel you can sucker him into a turn-reversal. If he reverses, continue with the following procedures.

8. Roll in a direction opposite your opponent's turn-reversal. This will reduce your vector velocity and help maintain longitudinal separation.

9. Play top or bottom rudder, according to whether your opponent pulls up or dives away after the reversal. If he pulls up, employ top rudder. This will allow you to roll nose-high toward a six-o'clock-low position. If he dives away, employ bottom rudder. This will allow you to roll nose-low and prevent your opponent from obtaining extreme longitudinal separation. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

HART_dreyer
06-23-2004, 09:53 PM
I think a track is necessary for me to really grasp this concept. From what Fehler (thanks m8) explained I still don't really grasp how the roll-rate will make such a big difference.

It makes no sense to me at least. Roll around and turn (?!) in the opposite direction? How will that help? Say what? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Please excuse my ignorance, I've never been able to make much of written tactics.

Regards,
dreyer
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Henkie_
06-23-2004, 10:04 PM
Better rollrate will not make a difference in AEP. It's the extra 1 G that can make the difference after you roll up and to the opposite side of the turn when you are inverted that can make a difference.

It's logical.

If you are inside the defenders turn you must barrel roll up and to the opposite side to keep tally. There is no other way.

If you are outside the defenders turn then rolling to the opposite side will lose you tally. So then you can do a hi yoyo instead.

So to turn to the opposite side of the turn, you must be inside the turn (so in lead pursuit) already and there must be an overshoot. Otherwise you don't have to barrel roll to the outside.

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EAF274_Henkie

HART_dreyer
06-23-2004, 10:06 PM
Ah, from the drawing karost (thanks!) provided I think I udnerstand now. There was no mention of going vertical first which had me way confused. Why would you want to do the a Vector Roll instead of the High YoYo though I'm still not clear on. Does it not produce the same effect (other than getting to fire from below isntead of above) or am I stupid? Probably the latter.

Regards,
dreyer
the dreyer vs. Hartmann game! (http://www.dreyermachine.com/il2/)

patch_adams
06-23-2004, 10:18 PM
vector roll exploits the blind spot, high yo yo does not.

karost
06-23-2004, 10:41 PM
Hi , JG14_Josf and friends

That link was so long time of good post for new pilots to learning.


for me, conclude that vector roll for 190 or p-47 "NOT WORK" in AEP , I hope I'm wrong and would like to see online trak file from our good 190 pilot show me to change my mine.

all we read in history is still a history and game is still game.

I like to thanks Oleg&Team romove sonar sound, so surprise attack can simulate same like a wwii history air-combat that we read.

just hope, in BOB project we can apply "vector roll" same as history.

S!

El Turo
06-23-2004, 11:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HART_dreyer:
Ah, from the drawing karost (thanks!) provided I think I udnerstand now. There was no mention of going vertical first which had me way confused. Why would you want to do the a Vector Roll instead of the High YoYo though I'm still not clear on. Does it not produce the same effect (other than getting to fire from below isntead of above) or am I stupid? Probably the latter.

Regards,
dreyer
_http://www.dreyermachine.com/il2/_<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Using a lag-roll you place yourself on the OUTSIDE of his turning circle which gives you a better angle-opportunity to cut back across as you pull through the bottom of your manuever.

If you simply yo-yo, you will retain a superior energy state but you will not get as sharp of an angle cut across your bandit's turning circle.

The reason a superior roll rate is critical is because you want to get yourself rolled-around and coming back through the back side of the manuever as fast as possible in a similar-E engagement.

The larger the difference in energy, the less critical the speed of your roll. You can use a VERY high lag-roll to keep yourself on top of your opponent and with sharp angles for better opportunity for a top-down deflection shot.

Callsign "Turo" in IL2:FB & WWIIOL
______________________
This place
was once
a place
of worship
I thought,
reloading my rifle.

~V.

JG14_Josf
06-24-2004, 01:20 AM
Karost,

The Lag Displacement Roll, Barrel Roll Attack, Lag Roll, Raspberry Roll or whatever you want to call a maneuver that maximizes energy usage to gain maximum angles from inside an opponents turn up and over while rolling outside the opponents turn and at the same time maintain visual contact can work in IL2/FB.

The problem is that this maneuver is not easy to visualize, realize and certainly difficult to apply.

From "Boyd" by Robert Coram:

page 214

"Razz had his work cut out. The success of Mission Bolo depended in large part on him. Then he remembered the maneuver John Boyd taught at the FWS, the one that had so astonished him with its elegant simplicity: the roll to the outside in order to gain the tactical advantages. It was a maneuver contrary to everything a fighter pilot thought he knew about aerial combat, but a maneuver that put a pilot tight in on his adversary's six, well within the narrow missle-launching limitations. Razz briefed more than sixty pilots in the wing. And after every mission up North, he had pilots practice the maneuver on the way back to Ubon. Again and again they practiced.
Then came january 2."

Page 215

"Wolfpack pilots shot down seven MiGs that day, plus two probables (MiGs that disappeared into an overcast with missles tracking strong and true). January 2. 1967, was the greatest day the Air Force had during the Vietnam War. Bolo went into the history books. But what Razz remembers is that six of the seven kills that day were done by pilots who used John Boyd's outside roll at some point in the engagement. Razz says Boyd was the father of that great victory as surely as if he had led the mission."

According to that source the maneuver is not easy, but it is effective.

There must be guys flying on-line that use this manuever.

I have yet to find a place to use it.

In jet fights the ability to get back up to speed makes this manuever more usefull I think.

Normally I am flying with a wingman and the last thing I want to do is overcommit. If a target is turning and I am in possition to get inside his turn my tactic is to take a snap shot or fake a snap shot and then extend looking to see if he will follow so my wingman can pick him up.

The Barrel roll attack is a full on aggressive maneuver, something that comes from someone like John Boyd. It 'bets the farm' in my opinion. The energy used to make it work will be tough to get back if the target is not disabled.

I think planes like the LA7, Yak 3, and Spitfire IX would be great at this maneuver in the game. I don't fly those planes and if one of those planes are attacking me I don't turn much. Turning makes it tough for your wingman to get a shot.

It wouldn't be too tough, I think, to demonstrate and record this maneuver in the game if two guys connected on-line for that specific purpose. It has occured to me to do this demonstration, however, when I get hooked up on-line with the squad it doesn't get on the list of things to do, we are more inclined to try our luck at shooting down other players.

On the occasions I am alone flying on-line in a dog fight server there is even less incentive for me to over commit, to bet the farm in a turning fight. Energy is a valuable commodity. Once it is gone someone always seems to show up with an abundance of it.

There is no reason why this maneuver will not work in the game. I have one track file that almost fits the bill. If an opponent is turning in front and if you are attacking at a higher speed then simply get inside the targets turn. Maintain just the right amount of separation, something under one turn radius but not less than half a turn radius. When it looks like things are getting too close then pitch up and roll to keep the target in view. Use a lot of rudder too. Push the inside rudder pedal to help point the nose at the target. Pull on the stick for maximize turn performance as the roll progresses. Get the screen to grey out. I think the target should appear near 12 oclock high throughout the whole maneuver. The target should appear to rotate as you travel around his turn. It will first appear up in the forward right or left view (depending upon the targest evasive turn) and it's nose will be pointing at your nose. As you roll around the target it will appear to rotate in your view from his nose pointing at your nose to your nose pointing at his tail.
On the top of the roll as you look down you should see the target perpendicular to your planes vector as if it is going from your 9 oclock high to your 3 oclock high (depending upon the targets evasive turn) Your geometrical gains are increasing at a much higher rate due to maximum turn rate performance at corner speed and geometrical progression (roll is added to pitch). I think yaw adds even more angle gains as the tail is thrown around in a wider arc.
The maneuver is a maximum effort, it utilizes all that excess energy, relative energy margin, toward the shortest possible angle gains.

Perhaps it is not well know in IL2 because the guys that know how to use it are being quiet about it.

bazzaah2
06-24-2004, 04:41 AM
great thanks guys!

http://www.endlager.net/fis/pix/banners/fis_banner_05.gif

Crashing online as :FI:SpinyNorman

HART_dreyer
06-24-2004, 06:34 AM
Good information Josf.

I'm going to test this manouver my self and post a track sometime.

Regards,
dreyer
the dreyer vs. Hartmann game! (http://www.dreyermachine.com/il2/)

geetarman
06-24-2004, 07:21 AM
I think I've used this tactic on a number of occaisions on-line. It usually occurs in the following situation:

1. I dive on a bandit from it's rear with relatively high angle-off (say 50-60 degrees off his tail - and let's say from his right rear).

2. As I begin to pull tighter right, he breaks hard right to rapidly increase AOT so as to force an overshoot.

3. Rather than continuing to pull a hard right turn to keep on his tail, I loosen-up on the stick, climb and then roll LEFT.

4. While going over in the roll, I use my rudder to bring my nose around so it winds up pointing in the same direction as my bandit's travel direction as I complete the roll.

5. When complete, I should basically be behind him, at his altitude and essentially traveling in the same direction, with slight AOT and a good shot opportunity.

6. I use this all the time while flying the P-38 against 109's, Spits, Mustangs, etc.

I consider this a vector roll. A barrel-roll attack I use on a dead six approach where I'm going too fast. The horizontal movement of the barrel roll keeps me a good distance from the bandit's tail.

Redwulf_34
06-24-2004, 07:36 AM
I would like to see a track on the vector roll. I understand it and know exactly what it is but for some reason I can't do it anymore. Don't know if its the patch or what.

I also would like to see a track of Heinz's move. That sounds interesting too.

There is still nothing better than hiding around in the clouds and sun and using the 190's speed to dive down on the spits and ponys. Get there so fast they dont see you or have time to turn. It's awesome to see the words typed what the .%&#*$ where did you come from. As you see his wings come off. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

http://www.redwulf.de/Pic/ani34.gif

MEGILE
06-24-2004, 07:47 AM
BUMP for a track http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://www.2and2.net/Uploads/Images/p51dark.bmp

Countdown to 1337 post count = P minus 149

Henkie_
06-24-2004, 08:29 AM
You must be in lead pursuit first before to use that lag displacement roll.

It's not logical to use the hi yoyo when you are in lead pursuit, because you lose tally. The hi yoyo you can use when you are in lag pursuit. Then you can keep tally.

If you are inside the defenders turn and barrel roll to the outside you can go from lead to lag pursuit and control the closure and keep tally and cut inside his circle to lead pursuit again with 1 extra G because you turn nose below the horizon.

It's not difficult to visualize but the situations that it happens online or offline is very rare to recreate. The manuver is independant of planetype. Any fighterplane can do it and not just planes with good rollrate because the difference in rollrate in AEP is to small to see a big difference.

cu http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

EAF274_Henkie

Diablo310th
06-24-2004, 09:03 AM
Thanks guys for a great post. I haven't done as much copy and paste of a maneuver in a long time. I have done this but not really known what it was called. Now i can use it to better advantage knowing exactly why it works and how to perform it better. HeinzBar and Fehler thanks for all teh "useful" info. LOL

http://img54.photobucket.com/albums/v166/310thDiablo/DiabloSig.gif

Redwulf_34
06-24-2004, 09:12 AM
Henkie is right about the roll rate and the vector roll. Any plane can do a vector roll. Roll speed isnt a requirement.

The superior roll rate can be used to change direction quickly. In say a defensive move. If I am turning right and being tracked by a better turner but slower roller, I can change direction by turning left faster than the plane following. Then using speed put distance between us before he can get his direction reversed. In AEP its definately not a big enough difference to be useful.. If you try it you just get your wings turned to swiss cheese!

http://www.redwulf.de/Pic/ani34.gif

Fehler
06-24-2004, 09:19 AM
Dammit Diablo! I had hoped you didnt see this thread. Actually, I used it once on you and clearly remember it. It was pre-2.01 however, back when the 47 didnt roll so well.

I recalled diving in on you on that winter WC44 map. You saw me and pulled a hard right bank. I rolled the opposite direction, under you and fired as I came up with a deflection shot from under your 4 o'clock. I hit you with a 30mm from my A-9 in one of the best lead shots I have ever fired! Your engine smoked and you headed for home. I zoomed back up as there were other thunderbolts in the area. (I recal getting shot down later, but I forget who did it.) I later got a kill message from you, probably when you had to dead stick land it (You know how FB is now with dead engines, even on safe landings.)

I remember a lot of fights as clear as if they happened 2 minutes ago. That one stuck in my mind because A) It was you, and B) it was such an amazing shot! I recall the tip of the nose of your plane was in the left quarter glass of my 190 canopy. I fired a good one second burst and slightly rolled back over to watch a good hit on your engine cowling. I immediately though, woohoo! I wish I had a track of that! And I popped a woody! LOL http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/FehlerSig.gif
http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/9JG54.html

karost
06-24-2004, 09:50 AM
I just make timing test for vector roll
=======================

1. Time for spritfire vb turn complete 360 degree in hard break turn for me, I can make at 17 second , ok then look back at the picture I posted you will see the nice angle to make a shoot is when target make turn to 3/4 of 360 degree right ? so how long it take ? let say 13 second ok.

2. Now it's mean that I have to make a vector roll complete no longer then 14 second , so I try fw-190A4 but the best time I can make is more then 16 second. ( my best plane is bf 109 so I still noob in 190 ) http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif and I can tell you that it is not easy to make a good vector roll, fw-190 spin alot to dance like that http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I believe a good 190 pilot can make this turn complete in 13-14 second.


it would be nice if some one can simulate fw-190A4 make a vector roll complete in 14 second and share a track file for us


as my test is just a time testing only , and did not talk about lose sight problem , best range to open fire and best angle setup for make a shot.

here is my trak test:
http://www.allthaiproperties.com/bmax/fb/track/vector_1.ntrk
http://www.allthaiproperties.com/bmax/fb/track/vector_2.ntrk
http://www.allthaiproperties.com/bmax/fb/track/vector_3.ntrk
http://www.allthaiproperties.com/bmax/fb/track/vector_4.ntrk
http://www.allthaiproperties.com/bmax/fb/track/spitfire_turn.ntrk

S!

JG14_Josf
06-24-2004, 11:58 AM
Karost,

Relative energy state, specifically relative veloicty, is a component of the Lag Dispacement Roll maneuver.

The plane with the higher velocity is attacking and the problem with this excess energy is that the higher velocity plane is going to 'overshoot' the lower velocity plane.

If the pilot flying the slower plane is 'savy' he will look for the overshoot.

The faster plane is attacking and trying not to overshoot. The slower plane is defending looking for an overshoot.

How then can the faster plane avoid an overshoot? What must be done by the pilot flying the faster plane to avoid an overshoot? The faster plane will oversthoot if something isn't done.

Look at the maneuver from the perspective of the defender. He is watching a plane approaching rapidly from his 6 oclock, so he turns left for example. Now the faster plane is set up for a snap shot but the range is too far, the defender is getting ready for that inevitable 'overshoot' or so he thinks.
His break turn is causing his plane to cross the path of the faster plane and the defender may be thinking 'If I jink at the moment the attacker is going to shoot I can then reverse my turn after the overshoot and get a shot as the overshoot occurs'. However as the defender prepares to avoid the snap shot the attacker goes up. The defender is looking out the top rear of his cannopy wondering just what this guy is thinking. The expected overshoot is not going to happen. Imagine this situation at this moment in time. In the description documented by John Boyd, in his Aerial Attack Study he says:
________
3. Pull up and zoom inside your opponent's turn radius if you feel he is not strongly oriented toward the scissor maneuver (sometimes this is difficult to determine).
_________

The scissors is a defensive maneuver that forces an 'overshoot'.

Back to Boyd:
___________
6. Do not employ bottom rudder if your opponent rolls away from the turn and pulls up into the attack.
__________

That decisive moment illuminates the situation as it relates to relative energy states.

The reason I am pointing this out is to return to the question you raise concerning turn performance.

Vector rolls between two planes having the same energy state will favor the plane with better turn performance at that velocity.

The Barrel Roll Attack is an overshoot control maneuver where one plane is going faster than the other and this point is very important when considering relative turn performance.

If the attacking plane is above corner velocity and the defending plane is at or below corner velocity then it becomes clear just how well this maneuver should work because the slower plane's turn performance deteriorates every second that g force is applied. The faster plane will use excess energy to climb (maintain enough separation for an out of plane lead turn) and in so doing the faster plane will slow down to corner velocity where maximum turn performance is achieved. Furthermore the faster plane will be able to maintain corner velocity since the remainder of the maneuver is nose low. It is clear that in this ideal state of relative velocity the faster plane has a great advantage in turn performance.

Look at the differences in turn performance for any plane traveling at corner velocity and the same plane at the sustained turn velocity (level sustained turn speed).

The imporatance of relative velocity on relative turn performance is vital when trying to figure out what is going on in Air Combat.

If you read "Figher Combat" by Robert Shaw you will find many references to the extreme importance of corner velocity. Combat maneuvers require specific velocities. For example: How can a vertical maneuver be performed without 'vertical maneuvering speed'?

The Barrrel Roll Attack works so well because it utilizes every advantage an attacker has on a defender but those advantages must exist. One of those important advatages is the advatage of velocity. Not just more speed but the right speed advantage.

If you take the same situation where the attacker is at that decisive moment when he pulls up inside the defenders turn and this time have the attacker going 750kph while the defender is going 400kph then what happens?

If corner velocity for both planes is around 350kph then the maneuver is not going to work.

As the defender makes a breaking turn his velocity decreases into corner velocity and his break turn will be at the maximum possible rate, while the attacker is going well over corner velocity with a much higher turn rate and a much larger turn radius. The attacker would have to 'throw out the anchor' to avoid the inevitable overshoot.

The right relative difference in velocity is one important component required for this maneuver. The advantage in geometry remains as a geometrical advantage but will not offer any advantage if excess velocity enlarges the relative turn radius and lowers the relative turn rate between the attacker and the defender.

The attacker maintains possition by moving into the defenders rear hemisphere with a turn opposite the defenders turn. The attacker maintains range by pitching up to avoid minimum range. The roll mainains the lift vector pointed at the defender.

The defender is defending against a possition dissadvantage trying to maneuver the attacker from a rear hemisphere to a forward hemisphere, but as the defender turns to bring his guns around the attacker goes up, the defender can see the attacker if he looks up and back. As the defender looks at the attack he should recognize the intent and ability of the attacker to maintain a rear hemesphere possition advantage. The defender can see the attacker orbiting his rear hemisphere, going around his tail so to speak. The defender is in a tough spot now. Now, at that moment, it is important again to consider relative velocity and relative possition or range. Relative velocity must be so that the attacker has the speed to travel a greater distance around in a cork screw while the defender is traveling a simple arc. Relative range must not exceed the turn radius distance that would have allowed the defender to turn inside the attack. Relative range must not be less than the turn radius of the attackers turn to maintain a rear hemisphere possition advantage.
The defender first tries to turn into the attack while range is excessive and once it is obvious that the attacker is too close to accomplish this defensive maneuver the defender needs to make the range too close and force an overshoot.
The defender can't turn into the attack and then when the defender looks for minimum range the attacker goes up and around his tail, maintaining just the right amount of range; defeating the oversthoot.

Boyd's description warns the attacker to watch for the only defensive option left to the defender i.e. the reverse. The defender's only option is to force an overshoot because the attacker maintains that possition advantage in the defenders rear hemesphere.

Relative velocity is again a very important factor when considering how the defender forces an oversthoot and how the attacker maintains minimum range.

If the defender chopped the throttle at the begining of the break turn the defender would be well oriented toward the scissors because of the increasing gap in relative velocity. The defender would be doing the most he could do to force an overshoot at the earliest moment during the attack.

Boyd warned about this defense.

I really don't want to sound like a know it all. I'm sorry if that is the way this effort comes across, but there is nothing I can do about it. I write the way I see it.

I think the Barrel Roll Attack is a more effective maneuver for Jet fighters because of the higher speeds and greater thrust that Jets have over WWII planes. The conditions required for this maneuver to be effective are more difficult to meet when the planes have a narrower energy flight envelope.

I think also that the game flight model does not account for mass or momentum and this too may limit the ability of the game to reproduce real life air combat tactics.

Subtle tactics require subtle computations.

I hope someone can learn from reading as much as I do in writing. The more I think about this maneuver the more likely will be my chances of employing it.

[This message was edited by JG14_Josf on Thu June 24 2004 at 11:14 AM.]

Henkie_
06-24-2004, 01:19 PM
It is basically only a quarter barrel roll with a split S when you are upside down. You can do that the quickest if you are close at corner speed and make the radius of the barrel roll not so big.

and there is no lose sight problem in the situation that you use a lag displacement roll. In that situation, rolling to the outside of the bandits turn is making sure that you don't lose sight.

cu http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

EAF274_Henkie

karost
06-24-2004, 05:42 PM
Hey JG14_Josf , Thanks for your advice and I found something close to "POSSIBLE TO APPLY" in this game http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

and Henkie_ , Thanks alot for your point.

1) for my previous track file for spitfire_turn.trnk , I start make hard turn spitfire at initial speed 430 km/h until make turn complete 270 degree it's take time 11 second ( crezy turn , in normal case, it's should be 13 second http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif ) and speed drop to 300 km/h.

2) now I fix my fw-190A4 speed should faster so I simulate at 460 - 470 km/h , then I start vector roll by pull barrel roll smaller and faster ( as Henkie_ advice ) when I roll right 140-150 degree and speed drop to 310 km/h then I pull verticall turn and keep roll next 30 degree at the same time ... and I found "a magical energy" can bring me complete apply vector in "13 second" and my speed back to 350 km/h. just lose attitude about 450meter... WOW!

with pull barrel roll smaller and fast help the situation better not lose sight too.

ok , I think for my timing test for vector roll is ok.
now I have to keep more skillful and look a real experience in DF server http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

S!

Diablo310th
06-24-2004, 06:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
Dammit Diablo! I had hoped you didnt see this thread. Actually, I used it once on you and clearly remember it. It was pre-2.01 however, back when the 47 didnt roll so well.

I recalled diving in on you on that winter WC44 map. You saw me and pulled a hard right bank. I rolled the opposite direction, under you and fired as I came up with a deflection shot from under your 4 o'clock. I hit you with a 30mm from my A-9 in one of the best lead shots I have ever fired! Your engine smoked and you headed for home. I zoomed back up as there were other thunderbolts in the area. (I recal getting shot down later, but I forget who did it.) I later got a kill message from you, probably when you had to dead stick land it (You know how FB is now with dead engines, even on safe landings.)

I remember a lot of fights as clear as if they happened 2 minutes ago. That one stuck in my mind because A) It was you, and B) it was such an amazing shot! I recall the tip of the nose of your plane was in the left quarter glass of my 190 canopy. I fired a good one second burst and slightly rolled back over to watch a good hit on your engine cowling. I immediately though, woohoo! I wish I had a track of that! And I popped a woody! LOL http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/FehlerSig.gif
http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/9JG54.html<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL Fehler...funny you mention that..I remember that shot too. I was like WTF.....where did that shot come from. Now that I know how you did it I'll be watching next time. LOL If i remember correctly i said something to you about it.

http://img54.photobucket.com/albums/v166/310thDiablo/DiabloSig.gif