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Bearcat99
05-10-2007, 09:51 AM
Below is an email I got from Saitek after sending them kudos from this thread (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/5811036655)and asking about FFB in a Saitek HOTAS. The content of my original email to them is all there with the quote from TT. Pay particular attention to the italicized and emboldened lines in the email. If anyone has an X-52P


Hi Barry,
Mike Cannaby in Tech Service just passed your message on to me. First of all,
thanks for taking the trouble to write to us. We will work on a product all
year round, living and breathing them, dreaming in building them, really
appreciate a word of feedback from a knowledgeable person from time to time.
I have just started working on building a case for extending force feedback in
Saitek's line-up. Personally, I think there may be room for force feedback in
both the civilian and the combat flight sim communities.
One concern that I encounter is the quality of the force feedback synthesis
generated at the application level, whether Il2 or MS FS-X. You know the
saying: "garbage in, garbage out". Do you have any views on the availability
and quality of force feedback synthesis in current and future releases?
<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">Switching for a moment to the X52 Pro, are you aware of whether there is
any/much activity in the user community in programming additional control into
the multifunction display and its associated controls? </span> I have always had a tremendous respect for the creativity and
skills of Joe Public, but in some cases he just moves on to the next challenge
-- and can leave the unwary high and dry. What is the trend right now?
Thanks in advance for any help that you may be able to provide mean, and enjoy
your flying.
Eric Winkler

-----Original Message-----
From: Helpline [mailto:helpline@saitek.com]
Sent: 08 May 2007 14:59
To: 'cshallcross@saitek.com'
Cc: 'mcannaby@saitek.com'
Subject: FW: I'm sure you get this all the time.....
Ladies and gents...
I am a die hard flight sim junkie .. I fly in the best WWII flight sim to date
IL2 Sturmovik 46. I am also a moderator on their forums. I have been tooting the
Saitek horn for years now because frankly I think that there is no better source
for joysticks etc... than Saitek. Sure the CH products a more expensive.. and
thus in some ways more elitist... but pure bang for the buck quality? You can't
beat Saitek with a bat. The best HOTAS (Hands On Throttle And Stick ) pound for pound... (or I guess I should say ounce for ounce...)
on the retail market today. I cannot tell you how many people I have directed to
your site for reconditioned sticks over the years and how many I sold , sticks
wheels, pads, mice etc.... when I worked retail for 3 years at my local Best
Buy. Literally in the upper hundreds over the years.... and I have yet to have
anyone come back to me and say "Why did you recommend that piece of garbage..."
In fact... most of them now have your pedals too.... I thought you guys might
get a kick out of this post that I saw in the UBI forums from a very satisfied
customer.

Originally posted by Taylortony:
You just cannot go wrong with this company, Ok, as some of you are aware I
bought 3 sticks sight unseen and untested.
One of the was an X52 and when trying it it would not move on the lateral axis
very well...........
I took the bottom off and decided it was one of the hall effect sensors that was
shot, so I emailed Saitek with the part number off it stating it was broken and could I buy another one..
I reiterated after they said it had a 2 year warranty that the item was
secondhand so was probably out of warranty, I was passed onto Saitek's technical
support and the last email asked me to call one of the staff.
This I did today, again pointing out it would be out of warranty, secondhand etc
and that I had proved the fault was the sensor by swopping the sensors over so
the snag transferred...........
Up shot of this converstation..........
They are sending me a new sensor out and have given me instructions on exactly
how to set the replacement up so the stick calibrates itself centrally..........
SUPERB SERVICE AND NO CHARGE FOR A SECONDHAND STICK OUT OF WARRANTY They have me
as a loyal customer now, this is the second stick they have bent over backwards
to fix for me, one being my original X45..
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif
I know how it is sometimes... and it is always good to know that peiple appreciate your work and what you do. I dont know what your numbers are like...
but it is always good to hear it from a customer dontcha think?
By the way..... I am not sure if you are aware of it or not but a very good
place to get an idea for the pulse of the community as far as what they want
etc... without conducting a poll... or perhaps in conjunction with a poll.... is
here:
http://www.simhq.com/
and here
http://www.pacific-fighters.com/en/home.php
If you folks ever decided to come out with a force feedback X-52 I think it
would go over rather big but from a previous inqirey I hear that since the
flight sim market is such a niche... it is unlikely to happen.
Cheers....
Barry "Bearcat" Knotts
C.O. 332nd V.F.G.

Bearcat99
05-10-2007, 09:51 AM
Below is an email I got from Saitek after sending them kudos from this thread (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/5811036655)and asking about FFB in a Saitek HOTAS. The content of my original email to them is all there with the quote from TT. Pay particular attention to the italicized and emboldened lines in the email. If anyone has an X-52P


Hi Barry,
Mike Cannaby in Tech Service just passed your message on to me. First of all,
thanks for taking the trouble to write to us. We will work on a product all
year round, living and breathing them, dreaming in building them, really
appreciate a word of feedback from a knowledgeable person from time to time.
I have just started working on building a case for extending force feedback in
Saitek's line-up. Personally, I think there may be room for force feedback in
both the civilian and the combat flight sim communities.
One concern that I encounter is the quality of the force feedback synthesis
generated at the application level, whether Il2 or MS FS-X. You know the
saying: "garbage in, garbage out". Do you have any views on the availability
and quality of force feedback synthesis in current and future releases?
<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">Switching for a moment to the X52 Pro, are you aware of whether there is
any/much activity in the user community in programming additional control into
the multifunction display and its associated controls? </span> I have always had a tremendous respect for the creativity and
skills of Joe Public, but in some cases he just moves on to the next challenge
-- and can leave the unwary high and dry. What is the trend right now?
Thanks in advance for any help that you may be able to provide mean, and enjoy
your flying.
Eric Winkler

-----Original Message-----
From: Helpline [mailto:helpline@saitek.com]
Sent: 08 May 2007 14:59
To: 'cshallcross@saitek.com'
Cc: 'mcannaby@saitek.com'
Subject: FW: I'm sure you get this all the time.....
Ladies and gents...
I am a die hard flight sim junkie .. I fly in the best WWII flight sim to date
IL2 Sturmovik 46. I am also a moderator on their forums. I have been tooting the
Saitek horn for years now because frankly I think that there is no better source
for joysticks etc... than Saitek. Sure the CH products a more expensive.. and
thus in some ways more elitist... but pure bang for the buck quality? You can't
beat Saitek with a bat. The best HOTAS (Hands On Throttle And Stick ) pound for pound... (or I guess I should say ounce for ounce...)
on the retail market today. I cannot tell you how many people I have directed to
your site for reconditioned sticks over the years and how many I sold , sticks
wheels, pads, mice etc.... when I worked retail for 3 years at my local Best
Buy. Literally in the upper hundreds over the years.... and I have yet to have
anyone come back to me and say "Why did you recommend that piece of garbage..."
In fact... most of them now have your pedals too.... I thought you guys might
get a kick out of this post that I saw in the UBI forums from a very satisfied
customer.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Taylortony:
You just cannot go wrong with this company, Ok, as some of you are aware I
bought 3 sticks sight unseen and untested.
One of the was an X52 and when trying it it would not move on the lateral axis
very well...........
I took the bottom off and decided it was one of the hall effect sensors that was
shot, so I emailed Saitek with the part number off it stating it was broken and could I buy another one..
I reiterated after they said it had a 2 year warranty that the item was
secondhand so was probably out of warranty, I was passed onto Saitek's technical
support and the last email asked me to call one of the staff.
This I did today, again pointing out it would be out of warranty, secondhand etc
and that I had proved the fault was the sensor by swopping the sensors over so
the snag transferred...........
Up shot of this converstation..........
They are sending me a new sensor out and have given me instructions on exactly
how to set the replacement up so the stick calibrates itself centrally..........
SUPERB SERVICE AND NO CHARGE FOR A SECONDHAND STICK OUT OF WARRANTY They have me
as a loyal customer now, this is the second stick they have bent over backwards
to fix for me, one being my original X45..
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I know how it is sometimes... and it is always good to know that peiple appreciate your work and what you do. I dont know what your numbers are like...
but it is always good to hear it from a customer dontcha think?
By the way..... I am not sure if you are aware of it or not but a very good
place to get an idea for the pulse of the community as far as what they want
etc... without conducting a poll... or perhaps in conjunction with a poll.... is
here:
http://www.simhq.com/
and here
http://www.pacific-fighters.com/en/home.php
If you folks ever decided to come out with a force feedback X-52 I think it
would go over rather big but from a previous inqirey I hear that since the
flight sim market is such a niche... it is unlikely to happen.
Cheers....
Barry "Bearcat" Knotts
C.O. 332nd V.F.G.

Divine-Wind
05-10-2007, 11:55 AM
So, I take it that if he gets enough support, we just might see an FFB HOTAS from Saitek?

Yskonyn23
05-10-2007, 12:13 PM
FFB would be a double edged knife.

Of course it would be nice, but the quality issue that he brought up is a valid one.

FFB in, for example, racing games varies from average to excellent and progress has been made to the 'feel' of the car over the years, but I've never come across any realistic FFB in flightsims to be honest.

Sure you feel the impact of firing guns in your stick, but a lot of other effects (most notably the rotation of blades in a helisim for example) are ****.

If they can come up with (subtle) realistic FFB I'd go for it, but due to flying planes in real life makes me wonder if FFB won't be an overly exaggerated effect in most instances?

faustnik
05-10-2007, 12:17 PM
Ask Saitek to buy a MSFFB2 stick on EBay and reverse engineer it.

Huxley_S
05-10-2007, 12:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by faustnik:
Ask Saitek to buy a MSFFB2 stick on EBay and reverse engineer it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

Surely, it would make sense for Saitek to speak directly to the developers about the "garbage in, garbage out" issue. Also, they should include a FFB design utility or SDK with the stick so that users can define their own FFB effects. With the right tools, the community will come up with the right effects.

BSS_AIJO
05-10-2007, 01:17 PM
hey,

if saitek released a forcefeedback x52 pro, I would not think twice about buying it.

a x52pro-ffb is the stuff of my dreams.

BSS_AIJO

DmdSeeker
05-10-2007, 01:25 PM
I would SO like an FF X52 pro..

notamuppet
05-10-2007, 02:51 PM
me me me http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I wouldnt hesitate!!!

Taylortony
05-10-2007, 03:15 PM
Noo they can't bring a FFB version out, I just got my X52 fixed http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

crazyivan1970
05-10-2007, 03:18 PM
Personally i am not too found of Saitek sticks. But what can you expect from someone spoiled rotten with MS FFB2 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Bearcat99
05-10-2007, 04:25 PM
Well thats the thing... and basically what I told him in my reply was that MS had the lock on FFB till they quit... but if Saitek could come up with one that was at least as robust if not better it would go over big. Personally for me I think the FFB of the MS stick does a better job than any spring ever could. I never did like the gunshake feature as it spoils my aim... but being able to feel the load out.... and a change therein... say after dropping the first load of bombs... and then the second and each rocket... or being able to feel damage to a control surface.... the sluggishness of a low speed roll as opposed to the crispness of a high speed roll... all these things are priceless to me and where FFB really shines.

Note that he said "One concern that I encounter is the quality of the force feedback synthesis
generated at the application level, whether Il2 or MS FS-X. You know the
saying: "garbage in, garbage out".

I take that to mean that for FFB to really be worthwhile then developers need to broaden the scope of what they put into the code to translate to FFB. Imagine if engine vibration were also transferrable to FFB.. and if FFB could be more finely tuned... as in say being able to individually set gunshake (or weapon release in general.. like say a slight buck at the release of a rocket), engine vibration, speed transmission, wing loading , ground impact (as in wheels hitting the ground..), projectile impact (as in gun hits) and things like landing gear retraction and rudder deflection... (although that would probably be better rendered as some for of electromagnetic resistance since the leg muscles are so much more powerful than the hand muscles and that in itself would neccessitate a more robust frame to say a set of pedals).

Note too that he mentioned the multifunction control display of the X-52.. I dont know what that is... does anyone who has one care to explain some of the potential for that?

Huxley_S
05-10-2007, 05:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Note too that he mentioned the multifunction control display of the X-52.. I dont know what that is... does anyone who has one care to explain some of the potential for that? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is an LCD display that can show data from the game like speed, prop pitch etc etc... in theory it would make all on-screen prompts like the speedbar etc redundant.

If Saitek are this serious then they should really be talking directly to Oleg about designing a stick specifically for / highly compatible with the Storms of War series. But from their email you posted it still seems like they're a bit in the dark. Which is a bit odd if you ask me.

SithSpeeder
05-10-2007, 05:14 PM
http://www.saitekusa.com/USA/images/product/pcp/x52.jpg
The MFD is the little multi-line LCD screen on the throttle.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The panel displays the current mode that the X-52 is in as well as the time, date and the current profile you are using. A clutch button is included on the throttle, which allows you to switch profile on the fly and also view the function of any button you press. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> I believe that it may be programmable to do other functions, however. If I could figure out how to throw up the in game map there, that might be useful (albeit a bit small).

* _54th_Speeder *

249th_Maico
05-11-2007, 11:43 PM
I was in a DF room in the middle of an engagement. I finally got a firing solution and was about to pull the trigger. A Spit came straight down on me and fired cannon shells straight into my pit. It scared me so bad that I snapped my MS FF2 stick right at the base. In the next hour I went through denial (I cant beleive this just happened) Rage (What kind of guy JUST KILLS YOU LIKE THAT!!!) and finally sadness (I love you shtick.... please, dont DIE ON ME!!! Lucky for me I had heard that MS was going to discontinue our beloved stick. I had a spare in the closet. Long periods of depression were thus avoided. However should anything happen to it, I dont know how I could cope. I have looked for a replacement to no avail. Thanks to these forums I have avoided kissing a few frogs.
To say that a force feedback HOTAS is a sure thing is an understatement. I dont know why there is not even one out there. Are we such a small comunity ? Sure, not every kid out there is going to rush to Best Buy if ACME produced the Super HOTAS FFB tommorow. But I beleive there is enough of us dedicated simmers who would jump on this bandwagon. We would wait impatiently for the product. Once we had it, we would RUSH home from the post office with fire in our bellies and then try to be the first to post a "review". The news of the product would spread like wild fire. If the quality was as good as my MS FFB2, I would say they would be sold out in a few months. The Saitek product designer gets a huge bonus. He vacations in the Maldives and lives happily ever after.
Yes, this is an gold mine waiting to be opened. The FFB HOTAS would fill a HUGE gap in flight sims. It would turn casual fliers into dedicated simmers and IMO would bring a lot more people to this hobby.
In a perfect world this is what I would expect.
Base for the new controller should be the X52 Pro. Its solid, its sturdy, Its familiar to most serious simmers. FFB should be as good as the MS FFB2. No FFB on the throttle. It would have a twist stick (not everyone can afford or even wants a set of pedals). I would have a stick that fits real hands. The MS FFB2 was/is perfect for average to small hands. Dont mess with success. I beleive the X52 joy is WAY too big. Has this been said enough? Ergonomics are important when you spend four hours with your hand wrapped around the stick. The button layout on the top of the FFB2 is great. Some sticks tend to crowd the top of the shtick with buttons. That is not cool. Three to four buttons and a hat is enough. Arrangement is also important. You don't want to lower your gear when you drop that 500 pounder!
Saitek would not change the throttle in my perfect world. It is just about perfect on the X52. They would add two trim wheels to the base of the joy or throttle. i.e. I use the throttle on my FF2 as elevator trim. We have three trim axis we need to deal with plus prop pitch. Did I miss anything?
Big BIG thanks to Bearcat 99 for contacting Saitek and for promoting our hobby. Cheers Buddy.

erco415
05-12-2007, 05:52 AM
ffb x52 ftw!

The only ffb effect I MUST have is that little flutter that tells me I'm (almost) pulling too hard.

Airmail109
05-12-2007, 06:05 AM
Have them make the stick out of steel or aluminum as well, and make it not to flashy...

EiZ0N
05-12-2007, 06:08 AM
I just KNOW that if they make a FFB HOTAS it's going to be for righties only http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Airmail109
05-12-2007, 06:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by EiZ0N:
I just KNOW that if they make a FFB HOTAS it's going to be for righties only http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Could make it ambidextrous no?

EiZ0N
05-12-2007, 06:19 AM
I doubt they'll make it ambidextrous. They could make the stick ambidextrous, but looking at their current HOTAS products, the throttle has loads of gadgets and really is designed to fit in the left hand.

It wouldn't be that hard to make an ambidextrous throttle unit, just make it so that lefties can turn it upside down and use it in their right hand http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

T_Kang
05-12-2007, 12:10 PM
A FFB-X52 Pro? I'm In!

Sarcastic flame~ I did not know that they swapped the controls in the cockpit for the Brits to fly on the wrong side of the sky, or to be used by leftie's as optional equipment? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif