PDA

View Full Version : which aircraft got the most kills in WWII?



fulanito_chile
03-11-2004, 01:29 PM
(not perticular veriants just the main aircarft)

i guess maybe the Bf-109? or may be a bomber due to it large amount of fire power? any ideas?

"The Chilean Airforce" (FACH) The 4th oldest in the World...

fulanito_chile
03-11-2004, 01:29 PM
(not perticular veriants just the main aircarft)

i guess maybe the Bf-109? or may be a bomber due to it large amount of fire power? any ideas?

"The Chilean Airforce" (FACH) The 4th oldest in the World...

LilHorse
03-11-2004, 01:40 PM
Usually when talking about numbers per type the Grumman F6F Hellcat is reputed to be the winner in that catagory. For models which racked up the most individual kills (that is kills attributed to individual aircraft), that would probably have to be the Bf-109.

fulanito_chile
03-11-2004, 01:43 PM
i did'nt even think about the hellcat you know... that imperial navy must have got it hard... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/53.gif

"The Chilean Airforce" (FACH) The 4th oldest in the World...

ajafoofoo
03-11-2004, 01:47 PM
Based on online play, the ki-84c kill everyone and everything, even aliens that tried to invade earth were repelled by the mightah ki.

SonOfTheBeach69
03-11-2004, 01:49 PM
The Brewster in Finnish hands had kills/downs ratio of 20.8 (478/23), wich is the best ratio AFAIK.

Dunno if you meant that though...

"Ride the big one" - Notch Johnson

biggs222
03-11-2004, 01:56 PM
yeah actaully i have to agree with ajafoofoo on this one.

Koohullin
03-11-2004, 02:38 PM
Does anyone read the thread title? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/52.gif

The Bf/Me109 has the claim for the most kills, no others can come anywhere near.

LilHorse
03-11-2004, 03:14 PM
You guys gotta understand that there are different ways to look at this. Are we asking the most kills on an individual plane type basis or are we asking overall kills accross the whole of the type? Perhaps the B-239 does beat the Bf-109 on an individual plane in type basis. You could also try to determine which INDIVIDUAL plane regardless of type had the most kills scored in it. Though that might be hard to determine. I believe that if you are asking about most planes killed accross the whole of a given type then the Hellcat wins.

Chuck_Older
03-11-2004, 04:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SonOfTheBeach69:
The Brewster in Finnish hands had kills/downs ratio of 20.8 (478/23), wich is the best ratio AFAIK.

Dunno if you meant that though...

"Ride the big one" - Notch Johnson<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I also beleive that the B239 holds the record, also while in Finnish service, for most kills for an individual airframe. Not airplane type or sub-varient, but the single individual serial number aircraft that destroyed the most enemy aircraft.

*****************************
Wave bub-bub-bub-bye to the boss, it's your profit, it's his loss~ Clash

_Bootlegger_
03-11-2004, 04:47 PM
I'm sure you guys are right about the Brewster's percentages but I've read in several different places that the plane that got the most kills in WWII was the P-38.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

24 beers in a case.
24 hours in a day.
Coincidence...I think not !!!

p1ngu666
03-11-2004, 05:41 PM
um 109 i think got most
perhaps lanc/b29 for most ppl :\

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg

FiPete
03-14-2004, 05:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SonOfTheBeach69:
The Brewster in Finnish hands had kills/downs ratio of 20.8 (478/23), wich is the best ratio AFAIK.

Dunno if you meant that though...

"Ride the big one" - Notch Johnson<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I also beleive that the B239 holds the record, also while in Finnish service, for most kills for an individual airframe. Not airplane type or sub-varient, but the single individual serial number aircraft that destroyed the most enemy aircraft.

*****************************
Wave bub-bub-bub-bye to the boss, it's your profit, it's his loss~ Clash
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The FAF Brewster BW-393 had 41 victories.

nixon-fiend.
03-14-2004, 06:35 PM
During WW2 the hawker hurricane destroyed more aircraft than any other.

Zyzbot
03-14-2004, 08:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nixon-fiend.:
During WW2 the hawker hurricane destroyed more aircraft than any other.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Has to be the Me-109. It was in action from Poland in 1939 to the end of the war in Europe in 1945. Many of the high scoring Experten flew the 109. Don't see how anything else can come close.

Slickun
03-14-2004, 08:35 PM
For US planes the Hellcat has the best kill ratio. However, the P-51 shot down more total planes.

HAS to be the 109 for the entire war. Has to be.

Best ratio ever? The F-15 has 100+ kills and no losses.

DDad
03-14-2004, 09:13 PM
Ummmmm, not sure on a source- but didn't the B-17 have the most Air to Air Kills in the ETO?

Menthol_moose
03-14-2004, 09:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>

Best ratio ever? The F-15 has 100+ kills and no losses.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

yeah.. the F-15... heavy weight champion of the world ! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/icon_twisted.gif

http://www.ljuhome.com/images/own3d/owned-granny.gif

Gershy
03-15-2004, 09:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DDad:
Ummmmm, not sure on a source- but didn't the B-17 have the most Air to Air Kills in the ETO?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No bombers were actually quite ineffective in AA combat. The snipers in FB don't count. The escrt planes got far more kills than the B17.

For the whole war it has to be the 109.

-----------------------------

So long.We wish you well.
You told us how you weren't afraid to die.
Well then, so long.Don't cry.
Or feel too down.
Not all martyrs see divinity.
But at least you tried.

Wolfskraft
03-15-2004, 04:49 PM
The plane whith most air to air kills is the bf109 (B-K) Dont forgett the thousands of kills in russia.
I cant find the book right now but i found something else:
The luftwaffe detroyed about 120000 planes in WW2.
70000 of them were destroyed by fighteraircraft.
And because the 109 was the standart fighter, i guess it shot down about 50000 aircraft.
on the other hand side the luftwaffe "only" lost about 15000 fighter aircraft in WW2.(RAF/USA about 42000 of all types. Russia about 80000 !!!)
how could the Hurricane shot down more than about 50000 planes !?!

Zyzbot
03-15-2004, 04:56 PM
The link below lists Luftwaffe losses for one year.

http://www.butler98.freeserve.co.uk/thtrlosses.htm

DaBallz
03-15-2004, 05:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Wolfskraft:
The plane whith most air to air kills is the bf109 (B-K) Dont forgett the thousands of kills in russia.
I cant find the book right now but i found something else:
The luftwaffe detroyed about 120000 planes in WW2.
70000 of them were destroyed by fighteraircraft.
And because the 109 was the standart fighter, i guess it shot down about 50000 aircraft.
on the other hand side the luftwaffe "only" lost about 15000 fighter aircraft in WW2.(RAF/USA about 42000 of all types. Russia about 80000 !!!)
how could the Hurricane shot down more than about 50000 planes !?!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Dude, your numbers are so fantastic I won't even
bother to comment further.

Odds are the Bf-109 has the kill championship.
It was in the fray before WWII started, and
fought on both fronts.

Hellcats had the best kill ratio, but as a unit
the AVG, Flying Tigers had the best kill ratio
for the Allies (in P-40's!)

Anyone who thinks B-17's were ineffective
against fighters should contact Gunther Rhall.
He will inform you that you are very much incorrect.
The gunners scores/claims are hyper inflated.
But the effect on the German fighter force in the
west was dramatic. Like a P-51, you only had
to damage the cooling system in a Bf-109
to destroy it.
Landing with a damaged engine meant a lost plane
for a period of time, and by mid 1944 it probably
meant it would be written off and cannabalized.

The USAAF planners were aware the gunners scores were inflated.
But they mounted missions to force the Luftwaffe
to fight just for the bombers and escorts to
chew them up.

Reality is that flying into a box of bombers
with dozens, perhaps hundreds of .50's shooting
at you was bodering on suicide.

Doing it over and over again was going to get you killed.

da...

Zyzbot
03-15-2004, 05:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Wolfskraft:
The plane whith most air to air kills is the bf109 (B-K) Dont forgett the thousands of kills in russia.
I cant find the book right now but i found something else:
The luftwaffe detroyed about 120000 planes in WW2.
70000 of them were destroyed by fighteraircraft.
And because the 109 was the standart fighter, i guess it shot down about 50000 aircraft.
on the other hand side the luftwaffe "only" lost about 15000 fighter aircraft in WW2.(RAF/USA about 42000 of all types. Russia about 80000 !!!)
how could the Hurricane shot down more than about 50000 planes !?!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


------------------------------------------

According to one source I have read, the Luftwaffe lost about 94,500 aircraft of all types from 1939 to 1945. Of these, 38,900 were fighters, 9,800 were night fighters, and 21,800 were bombers. I assume that these losses were from ALL causes...not just combat.

The Luftwaffe claims were:

25,000 British,french and American planes shot down;British and American reported losses were 40,000 (again...probably ALL causes)
Claims of 45,000 Russian planes shot down were also made by the Luftwaffe.

Aimosika
03-15-2004, 05:57 PM
According to sources Luftwaffe produced in ww2 about total of 32 200 planes..
Those figures are toally American insane...

And the best kill ratio is Hans Wind's Brewster, 44 kills or more in single plane.
(Against "The Ally, HAH!")

Zyzbot
03-15-2004, 06:03 PM
Germany produced way more than that.

There were 30,000 Me-109's made alone.

The records of Luftwaffe Quartermaster General show a total of 98,755 main types of aircraft from 1939 to 1945.This list does not include trainers.

from the Luftwaffe war Diaries

[This message was edited by Zyzbot on Mon March 15 2004 at 05:12 PM.]

UncleVanya2001
03-15-2004, 06:05 PM
I thought it was the P-47...

Didn't one magazine or another (one of the aviation history mags, but I forget which) voted the P-47 the most effective plane of world war 2...citing kill/loss ratio blah blah blah.

Dunno about all that, tho...

but she sho' is perty.

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif

SkyChimp
03-15-2004, 06:08 PM
The B-17 was ineffective?

One can look forward too,
even take pleasure in, fighting
Spitfires. But when I turn in
on a Boeing, the whole of my life
flashes before my eyes.
- Adolf Galland

Regards,
SkyChimp
http://members.cox.net/us.fighters/skychimp.jpg

Aimosika
03-15-2004, 06:25 PM
Sources and verified links please http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Anyway Hans Wind's Brewster is still The Greatest scoring individual plane in aviation history....

Zyzbot
03-15-2004, 06:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aimosika:
Sources and verified links please http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Anyway Hans Wind's Brewster is still The Greatest scoring individual plane in aviation history....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


i just gave you one source...The Luftwaffe War Diaries

here are some links to just 3 types of aircraft which total 65,000 alone:

109 production..over 30,000

http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/air_power/ap14.htm

http://www.cavanaughflightmuseum.com/Aircraft/Me-109/Page1.html

Fw-190 production over 20,000

http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/town/avenue/vy75/ger190.htm

http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/gustin_military/db/ger/FW190FOC.html

Ju-88 production about 15,000

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/christophe.arribat/stofju88.html

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/2WWjunkers88.htm

ForkTailedDevil
03-15-2004, 06:32 PM
The Hellcat may have had a better kill ratio but the P-38 shot down total more Japanese aircraft during WW2 than any other aircraft.

Aimosika
03-15-2004, 06:34 PM
Outstanding!
But those numbers seem not to be fron Beyerishe Flugzoig Werk?

Please those numbers from actual sources?
I doubt there were any Americans counting the planes?

The real historical sources (not thos B-17 gunners who shot down over 3500 German fighters..)

Zyzbot
03-15-2004, 06:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aimosika:
Outstanding!
But those numbers seem not to be fron Beyerishe Flugzoig Werk?

Please those numbers from actual sources?
I doubt there were any Americans counting the planes?

The real historical sources (not thos B-17 gunners who shot down over 3500 German fighters..)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
----------------------------------

"The luftwaffe War Diaries" quotes actual Luftwaffe production sources as well as actual pilot losses. The author is German.

I doubt that Bf has a web site to show you since they dissapeared after the war.

Where is your source for the 32,000?.

[This message was edited by Zyzbot on Mon March 15 2004 at 06:17 PM.]

WUAF_Badsight
03-15-2004, 08:14 PM
its been common knowledge for Decades that the plane with the most kills was the HURRICANE

it might bite to be told that but its true

the underpowered dog got more A2A kills than any other family of A/C

Zyzbot
03-15-2004, 08:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WUAF_Badsight:
its been common knowledge for Decades that the plane with the most kills was the HURRICANE

it might bite to be told that but its true

the underpowered dog got more A2A kills than any other family of A/C<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


all you have to do is provide the actual data and I'll believe you.

tenmmike
03-15-2004, 11:51 PM
post some verifiable numbers!! its as easy as that hellm ill join your side ,but you cant post any numbers ..its been asked for hrs ..not one post in reply ..you boys are trooling ..and im on the line but youll never land me

http://www.2-60inf.com/2-60_crest.gif U.S INFANTRY 1984-1991

pinche_bolillo
03-15-2004, 11:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Wolfskraft:
The plane whith most air to air kills is the bf109 (B-K) Dont forgett the thousands of kills in russia.
I cant find the book right now but i found something else:
The luftwaffe detroyed about 120000 planes in WW2.
70000 of them were destroyed by fighteraircraft.
And because the 109 was the standart fighter, i guess it shot down about 50000 aircraft.
on the other hand side the luftwaffe "only" lost about 15000 fighter aircraft in WW2.(RAF/USA about 42000 of all types. Russia about 80000 !!!)
how could the Hurricane shot down more than about 50000 planes !?!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

your joking right? luftwaffe only lost 15,000 fighter a/c during the war.

the luftwaffe lost more aircraft air to air from direct combat w/ enemy a/c than did the allies. american fighter loses due to luftwaffe fighters is way lower than luftwaffe fighter loses due to american fights

I must be an idiot. I respond to posts like this one, yep im an idiot.

Aaron_GT
03-16-2004, 12:27 AM
The B17 was ineffective in the sense it didn't shoot down
very many enemy planes for the numbers lost on missions.
As an air superiority fighter it wasn't very good, hence
it tended to be used as a heavy bomber on the whole :-)

Stalker58
03-16-2004, 01:45 AM
"2423 Experten ranked up 61 852 confirmed air-to-air kills, the majority of them on Bf 109s.
107 of them scored over 100 victorie

I guess it's Me109 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Altitude, speed, manoeuvre and.... CRASH!

Gershy
03-16-2004, 02:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aaron_GT:
The B17 was ineffective in the sense it didn't shoot down
very many enemy planes for the numbers lost on missions.
As an air superiority fighter it wasn't very good, hence
it tended to be used as a heavy bomber on the whole :-)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


have to agree http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Well for those who say the B17 was so great:
The strenght of the B17s was the formation. A single B17 was dead meat as single gunners are NOT as accurate as in FB. Take the Schweinfurt raid for example. After the Pulkzerstoerer were done the B17s got shot up. Galland was talking about attacking B17 in formations there. I don't want to say the B17 was a bad plane and it was surely the best armed bomber in WW2 BUT losses to bombers were minimal compared to losses to fighters.

-----------------------------

So long.We wish you well.
You told us how you weren't afraid to die.
Well then, so long.Don't cry.
Or feel too down.
Not all martyrs see divinity.
But at least you tried.

Pollireh
03-16-2004, 03:03 AM
It is pretty inadequad to argue with the numbers of the produced german aircraft as there were simply no pilots who would have been able flying these aircraft!
Nazi Germany had only about 30000 pilots...
(from: Francis` "Lezikon des Zweiten Weltkriegs")

BTW: the Aircraft with the most "Luftsiegen" (Kills Air-to-Air) was surely the Bf109, because it was in Service not only the whole WWII but also in Spain 1936

SUPERAEREO
03-16-2004, 03:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cdn.401SHRIKE:
I'm sure you guys are right about the Brewster's percentages but I've read in several different places that the plane that got the most kills in WWII was the P-38.

Correct me if I'm wrong.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


AFAIK the American fighter with most kills was the P-47, even if Bong flew the P-38.

Maybe the P-47 in RL was more effective than in FB... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

S!



"The first time I ever saw a jet, I shot it down."
Chuck Yaeger

tenmmike
03-16-2004, 04:12 AM
you still feel you have something to offer this thread..well keep on going instead of "i think the hurricane was the best" as i have said over and over ...POST YOUR SOURCE how hard is that ? ..iv been here awhile bud and so far your the only one who ever said that about me .ask any body who has been here a while ..check my rep .. then report back .....you think the hurri was the no.1 well that's fine ..its just unbelievable for any WW2 person to think that is possible and shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the warfare of the entire European theater (including Russia ).. good luck

http://www.2-60inf.com/2-60_crest.gif U.S INFANTRY 1984-1991

[This message was edited by tenmmike on Tue March 16 2004 at 03:21 AM.]

MandMs
03-16-2004, 04:20 AM
How can the Hurricane rack up the most a2a kills when its only glory time was during BoB? After 1942 it was a secondary a/c, while the 109 series flew from the SCW until May 1945 as the main LW fighter.

The number of 109s produced was in the 35,000 range (German & Hungarian production) and for the Hurricane, it was ~14,000.


M&Ms
I eat the red ones last.

tenmmike
03-16-2004, 04:26 AM
MandMs check your pm

http://www.2-60inf.com/2-60_crest.gif U.S INFANTRY 1984-1991

WOLFMondo
03-16-2004, 04:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stalker58:
"2423 Experten ranked up 61 852 confirmed air-to-air kills, the majority of them on Bf 109s.
107 of them scored over 100 victorie

I guess it's Me109 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Altitude, speed, manoeuvre and.... CRASH!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The German score method was flawed though and prone over exageration. I've seen several documentaries (I'll try to find the title of one, it was on BoB and took the myth of Mallory apart and placed credit on Park and Dowding) on this stating that since medal in the LW were based on kills, pilots tended to over exagerate so they could get recognition by Goering.

Wolfgaming.net. Where the Gameplay is teamplay (http://www.wolfgaming.net)

Storm_Bird
03-16-2004, 04:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ajafoofoo:
Based on online play, the ki-84c kill everyone and everything, even aliens that tried to invade earth were repelled by the mightah ki.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Really? I always shot dowm the Ki-84 when I fly a He-162 and Bf-109K.

http://http://www.52dby.com/non-cgi/usr/16/16_931_1.jpg

MandMs
03-16-2004, 04:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WOLFMondo:

The German score method was flawed though and prone over exageration. I've seen several documentaries (I'll try to find the title of one, it was on BoB and took the myth of Mallory apart and placed credit on Park and Dowding) on this stating that since medal in the LW were based on kills, pilots tended to over exagerate so they could get recognition by Goering.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The only reply worthy of your post is a http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif.


M&Ms
I eat the red ones last.

tenmmike
03-16-2004, 04:39 AM
QUOTE]Originally posted by WOLFMondo:

The German score method was flawed though and prone over exageration. I've seen several documentaries (I'll try to find the title of one, it was on BoB and took the myth of Mallory apart and placed credit on Park and Dowding) on this stating that since medal in the LW were based on kills, pilots tended to over exagerate so they could get recognition by Goering.

////////////////////////// im going to bed..... but sir your conclusion is flawed and your facts are wrong they have been shown many times on this board ..the info you have is from the 50's..please take the time time to research furthur into your assertations..no offence ment its just that these same things get brought up every few months only to be shown to be wrong over and over ........edit to break up my post from the original

http://www.2-60inf.com/2-60_crest.gif U.S INFANTRY 1984-1991

[This message was edited by tenmmike on Tue March 16 2004 at 04:47 AM.]

[This message was edited by tenmmike on Tue March 16 2004 at 04:49 AM.]

Aaron_GT
03-16-2004, 05:37 AM
Both RAF and LW claims in BoB were exaggerated, although
there is some evidence that RAF claims for public consumption
were not the same as the numbers believed they had actually
shot down. In other words figures for public consumption
were exaggerated for propaganda purposes as well as the
standard overclaims.

Also there were different means of counting, and both sides
lost aircraft from non-combat causes, but these were
sometimes accounted for differently. The LW had more
aircraft written of totally as a plane that could not
be salvaged due to the lack of LW spares production counted
as lost, whereas the RAF had different procedures.

In other words comparing like-for-like in BoB is
difficult.

Still, I would eat my hat if it turned out that the Hurricane
had the most air-to-air kills in WW2. It seems immensely
unlikely.

WOLFMondo
03-16-2004, 06:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tenmmike:

////////////////////////// im going to bed..... but sir your conclusion is flawed and your facts are wrong they have been shown many times on this board ..the info you have is from the 50's..please take the time time to research furthur into your assertations..no offence ment its just that these same things get brought up every few months only to be shown to be wrong over and over ........edit to break up my post from the <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If its wrong and flawed you could at least inform me why.

So the German medal system didn't encourage pilots to exagerate? If I knew I was going to get a medal for several kills I'd be tempted to exagerate, especially when so much attention was given to Aces. What I stated was from a BBC programme on the battle of britain and was said to be one of the fall downs of LW amoungst other things. I can't find the actual name of the programme on the BBC sitehttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif but it was early this year and featured interviews with Pilots and some experts from the Imperial College in London. I'd like to be more specific but the BBC sites not very forthcoming.

You at least need to tell me why thats wrong otherwise im none the wiserhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Wolfgaming.net. Where the Gameplay is teamplay (http://www.wolfgaming.net)

Tully__
03-16-2004, 07:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Menthol_moose:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>

Best ratio ever? The F-15 has 100+ kills and no losses.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

yeah.. the F-15... heavy weight champion of the world ! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/icon_twisted.gif

http://www.ljuhome.com/images/own3d/owned-granny.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Menthol_moose, that sig pic is WAY outside the 30kB file size limit. Choose another.

=================================================


http://members.optusnet.com.au/tully_78th/Corsair.jpg (http://www.mudmovers.com/sturmovik_101/FAQ.htm)

IL2 Forums Moderator
Forum Terms of Use (http://www.ubi.com/US/Info/TermsOfUse.htm)

Salut
Tully

Zyzbot
03-16-2004, 07:36 AM
You'll find by doing some more searching of sources that the Luftwaffe was no more prone to overclaims that anyone else in the war.

Luftwaffe claims procedure.

http://users.aol.com/dheitm8612/claims.htm

Tully__
03-16-2004, 07:42 AM
Fishing season is closed. Bait has (mostly) been removed. Both fish and anglers will remain under observation. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Lets enjoy this thread without breaking the rules please.

=================================================


http://members.optusnet.com.au/tully_78th/Corsair.jpg (http://www.mudmovers.com/sturmovik_101/FAQ.htm)

IL2 Forums Moderator
Forum Terms of Use (http://www.ubi.com/US/Info/TermsOfUse.htm)

Salut
Tully

Slickun
03-16-2004, 08:18 AM
No no no.

Gentlemen. Please. Some facts.

The P-51 had the most total kills for Ami's in WW2. Period. End of story. If one counts kills from the ETO, MTO, PTO and CBI, the total is 5944 air to air kills. This doesn't include RAF kills AFAIK. I've never seen totals on that for the P-51.

The Hellcat had the most in the PTO. Including 8 scored in the ETO, the total is 5168 total air to air kills.

The P-38 had 3785 kills, all theatres (1700 PTO).

The P-47 had 3661.16 kills, all theatres.

The P-40 had 2225.5 kills, all theatres.

The F4-U had 2140 kills, all theatres.

The F4-F had 1012 kills, all theatres.

source..."Victory Roll" by Wolf.

HarryVoyager
03-16-2004, 08:38 AM
On a side note, it's F4U, and F4F, not F4-U. The dash comes after the manufacturer letter, and before the subvariant number.

Thus, the fifth subvariant of the Corsair would be the F4U-5, and the last Wildcat was the F4F-8, or FM-2 if it was produced by GM. (If the aircraft was the first produced by a company, the '1' was typically dropped.)

Navy numbering conventions were interesting, to say the least.

Harry Voyager

Koohullin
03-16-2004, 09:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HarryVoyager:

Navy numbering conventions were interesting, to say the least.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://www.microworks.net/pacific/aviation/usn_aircraft_designations.htm

for a list of the codes and an explaination

Slickun
03-16-2004, 09:19 AM
I believe you, Harry. I've seen it like you say, as I posted, and also as F-4U etc. I'll go with you, as long as you have the USN backing you.

BTW, add 422 FM-2 kills to the F4F totals if you wish.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HarryVoyager:
On a side note, it's F4U, and F4F, not F4-U. The dash comes after the manufacturer letter, and before the subvariant number.

Thus, the fifth subvariant of the Corsair would be the F4U-5, and the last Wildcat was the F4F-8, or FM-2 if it was produced by GM. (If the aircraft was the first produced by a company, the '1' was typically dropped.)

Navy numbering conventions were interesting, to say the least.

Harry Voyager<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wolfskraft
03-16-2004, 11:29 AM
My numbers are from the book "Die ber├╝hmte Me109 und ihre Piloten 39-45"
but i agree that they look unrealistic when i look at them again.

HarryVoyager
03-16-2004, 11:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Slickun:
BTW, add 422 FM-2 kills to the F4F totals if you wish.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you are tallying Wildcat kills, then the FM kills should certainly go in with the F4F kills.

The F4F-4 and the FM-1 are nearly exactly the same plane, with the only significant difference being, the GM manufactured aircraft had a four gun wing, instead of the six gun wing on the F4F-4/Marlet mk IV.

The FM-2 was an exact copy of the F4F-8. The only reason the F4F-8 didn't see combat was because Grumman was to busy building F6Fs to spare the production space for more than the two prototypes, but all of the developmental work was done by Grumman; all GM did was churn out the airframes.

This is why tracking the kill record of Navy aircraft can get so interesting. While two aircraft may be very nearly identical in all respects, they may have radically different designations, merely because they were produced at different factories.

Harry Voyager

csThor
03-17-2004, 01:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
If its wrong and flawed you could at least inform me why.

So the German medal system didn't encourage pilots to exagerate? If I knew I was going to get a medal for several kills I'd be tempted to exagerate, especially when so much attention was given to Aces. What I stated was from a BBC programme on the battle of britain and was said to be one of the fall downs of LW amoungst other things. I can't find the actual name of the programme on the BBC sitehttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif but it was early this year and featured interviews with Pilots and some experts from the Imperial College in London. I'd like to be more specific but the BBC sites not very forthcoming.

You at least need to tell me why thats wrong otherwise im none the wiserhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://www.wolfgaming.net<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your logic is flawed as you seem to think "kill claim = awarded kill". In fact a lot of kills were not given due to lack of evidence (witness, guncam or wreckage). The Luftwaffe put up an astonishing bureaucracy just to deal with the kill claims of its fighter pilots. Official acknowledgements or rejections of aerial victories tended to take roughly a year - and that excludes a lot of dubious kill claims as these mostly never got past the Gruppe (where they were sorted into the trash can).

______________________________

<A HREF="http://www.il2skins.com/?action=list&authoridfilter=csThor" TARGET=_blank>
http://home.arcor.de/csthor/bilder/ubi_sig.jpg </A>

csThor's skins @ Il2skins.com

RicknZ
03-17-2004, 01:38 AM
Heres some more info for ya.

Typically when german pilots reached the 100 kill milestone they were ordered to no longer fly combat missions.
FOr example Werner Molders.

So what happened when he was touring the eastern front he took up individual pilots and showed them how to shoot down il2's. Since he wasnt allowed to fly combat missions he wasnt allowed to have the kill awarded.

Zyzbot
03-17-2004, 06:29 AM
I don't think that policy was enforced for long. Germany had many pilots with over 100 kills.

Slickun
03-17-2004, 08:32 AM
And, of course, the F4F's that originally saw combat with the Japanese had 4 wing guns. The move to the 6 gun version was met with dismay by the pilots. More weight, fewer rounds, while 4 .50's was easily enough to deal with the light Japanese designs of the time.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HarryVoyager:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Slickun:
BTW, add 422 FM-2 kills to the F4F totals if you wish.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you are tallying Wildcat kills, then the FM kills should certainly go in with the F4F kills.

The F4F-4 and the FM-1 are nearly exactly the same plane, with the only significant difference being, the GM manufactured aircraft had a four gun wing, instead of the six gun wing on the F4F-4/Marlet mk IV.

The FM-2 was an exact copy of the F4F-8. The only reason the F4F-8 didn't see combat was because Grumman was to busy building F6Fs to spare the production space for more than the two prototypes, but all of the developmental work was done by Grumman; all GM did was churn out the airframes.

This is why tracking the kill record of Navy aircraft can get so interesting. While two aircraft may be very nearly identical in all respects, they may have radically different designations, merely because they were produced at different factories.

Harry Voyager<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

DaBallz
03-17-2004, 03:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Slickun:
And, of course, the F4F's that originally saw combat with the Japanese had 4 wing guns. The move to the 6 gun version was met with dismay by the pilots. More weight, fewer rounds, while 4 .50's was easily enough to deal with the light Japanese designs of the time.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HarryVoyager:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Slickun:
BTW, add 422 FM-2 kills to the F4F totals if you wish.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you are tallying Wildcat kills, then the FM kills should certainly go in with the F4F kills.

The F4F-4 and the FM-1 are nearly exactly the same plane, with the only significant difference being, the GM manufactured aircraft had a four gun wing, instead of the six gun wing on the F4F-4/Marlet mk IV.

The FM-2 was an exact copy of the F4F-8. The only reason the F4F-8 didn't see combat was because Grumman was to busy building F6Fs to spare the production space for more than the two prototypes, but all of the developmental work was done by Grumman; all GM did was churn out the airframes.

This is why tracking the kill record of Navy aircraft can get so interesting. While two aircraft may be very nearly identical in all respects, they may have radically different designations, merely because they were produced at different factories.

Harry Voyager<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Similar planes, but really there are a lot of differences.
But first they are definatly Wildcats, no doubt about it.
F4F-4 was powered by a P&W R-1830 of 1,200hp.
The tail was standard height etc.
The FM2 was changed in several ways.
the tail is taller to compentate for increased power.
The Engine is a Wright GR-1820 of 1350hp and 9 cylinders
instead of the 14 cylinders of the P&W.
The wing, as previously mentioned is different
in having 4 guns and improved hard points.

Time to climb is drasticly improved in the FM2
and it's a little faster.
A A6M Zero pilot mistaking a FM2 for a standard
Wildcat was in for a nasty surprise. It could
out climb him and could beat him in a sustained
turn or a loop.

Yes they look the same, sort of, but the FM2
is much improved.

da...

darkhorizon11
03-17-2004, 04:03 PM
I'd go for the Cessna 172. That plane was unstoppable.

Seriously though, I think those Luftwaffe babies are right for once. I don't think any plane was used more extensively and was still a threat at the end of the war like the 109 was... then again did anybody check on the Spitfire? That plane was around for most of the war too...

ColdWarrior11
03-17-2004, 06:20 PM
Luftwaffe kills in WWII- 70,000 planes
Luftwaffe losses- 62,500 planes
103 pilots with 100 plus kills
13 pilots with 200 plus kills
2 pilots with 300 plus kills

Russian claims
126,000 aircraft produced
77,000 kills
70,000 deaths

EPP-Gibbs
03-17-2004, 06:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by darkhorizon11:
then again did anybody check on the Spitfire? That plane was around for most of the war too...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

All of the war actually. In service 1938-1950ish or threabouts. Served all over the world too, in all the major theatres of war.

If I had all the money I'd spent on drink..I'd spend it on drink!

WUAF_Badsight
03-17-2004, 08:35 PM
what kind of insane madman would tackel a Spitfire mk22 with anything less than a Bearcat or LA-9 lol

was one of the top 5 prop fighters ever

HarryVoyager
03-17-2004, 11:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Slickun:
And, of course, the F4F's that originally saw combat with the Japanese had 4 wing guns. The move to the 6 gun version was met with dismay by the pilots. More weight, fewer rounds, while 4 .50's was easily enough to deal with the light Japanese designs of the time.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The primary reason the Gruman made Wildcats moved to the six gun wing, was because the British did not want an aircraft armed with only four machine guns. They stipulated at very least a six gun wing, and preferably an eight or ten gun wing, reguardless of the calibre.

The US Navy, on the other hand, said .50 machine guns, at least four, and build lots of them, too.

So Gruman compromised. Their assembly line standardized with the six gun wing on all Wildcat/Marlet variants serially produced there. GM, on the other hand, was only tasked with supplying Wildcats for the Navy, so they were free to produce the four gun wing exclusively.

Ironically, Britain became so pressed for carrier aircraft, that they ended up buying GM made Wildcats, anyways, complete with the four gun wing.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DaBallz:
Similar planes, but really there are a lot of differences.
But first they are definatly Wildcats, no doubt about it.
F4F-4 was powered by a P&W R-1830 of 1,200hp.
The tail was standard height etc.
The FM2 was changed in several ways.
the tail is taller to compentate for increased power.
The Engine is a Wright GR-1820 of 1350hp and 9 cylinders
instead of the 14 cylinders of the P&W.
The wing, as previously mentioned is different
in having 4 guns and improved hard points.

[...]

Yes they look the same, sort of, but the FM2
is much improved.

da...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The FM-2/F4F-8 was the last generation Wildcat, and first saw service in 1943. Compairing the F4F-4/FM-1 and the F4F-8/FM-2 is about the same as compairing the Spitefire mkV and the Spitfire mkIX.

On another side note, the FM-2 is actually the version of the Wildcat that saw the greatest amount of service in the war. It turned out that the heavier Hallcats and Corsairs were just to heavy to operate from the light "Jeep" carriers that we were churning out in large numbers, but the Wildcat was just right for them, and it was still a dependable, though obsolescent by that time.

I think in the end, FM-2's accounted for half to two-thirds of the entire Wildcat production. They were in combat through VJ day, and were in full production up until about a month before the war ended.

Really, the Wildcat is the closest aircraft the US had to the Yak-1. It wasn't the greatest aircraft, but it was a good plane, that served through the entire war, and helped found a great line of fighters.

It is one aircraft that I truely wanted to see represented in Il-2, but alas, I have been unsuccesful in making the models for it.

Harry Voyager

darkhorizon11
03-18-2004, 12:23 AM
"Luftwaffe kills in WWII- 70,000 planes
Luftwaffe losses- 62,500 planes
103 pilots with 100 plus kills
13 pilots with 200 plus kills
2 pilots with 300 plus kills

Russian claims
126,000 aircraft produced
77,000 kills
70,000 deaths" http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/353.gif

Okay this has nothing to do with the superiority of one airforce over another this is only about the aircraft themselves. Don't flame out this thread too....

Good point Gibbs, although I think the Messerschmitt edges it out because it saw more action in more theaters and was flown by more countries. Keep in mind the RAF kept the Spit out of the battle of France, and they weren't as widely available in the Battle of Britain as the Hurricanes were. I contrast this to the 109 which was the mainstay fighter for the Luftwaffe in both battles.

ulriktham74
03-18-2004, 03:26 AM
Since Hartmann took down a good percentage of the Soviet Air Farce singlehandedly my vote is on the Bf109. Hehe. I fly it, too.

"What's 'Hooah' in German?"

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by fulanito_chile:
(not perticular veriants just the main aircarft)

i guess maybe the Bf-109? or may be a bomber due to it large amount of fire power? any ideas?

"The Chilean Airforce" (FACH) The 4th oldest in the World...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>