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View Full Version : I read in Oleg's Ready Room that PF has a new DGEN. Is it true?



sukebeboy
10-16-2004, 06:31 AM
I only play single player campaigns in IL2 and I sometimes get very frustrated because the low level AI is very poor almost every mission, planes slam into the ground or the side of a hill. I guess this won't be as much of a problem over the water, but what about campaigns over mountainous islands like New Guinea or the Philippines?

I really, really hope they took the time to fix this. I was very patient throughout the IL-2FB development and patching cycle and the problem has still not been addressed.

Yellonet
10-16-2004, 06:57 AM
Not sure if something has been done about that.. the mail (probably the pf readme) that Bearcat posted said something about being carefull with the waypoints as the AI tend to crash into the ground... It DID actually happen in real life sometimes.

VW-IceFire
10-16-2004, 07:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sukebeboy:
I only play single player campaigns in IL2 and I sometimes get very frustrated because the low level AI is very poor almost every mission, planes slam into the ground or the side of a hill. I guess this won't be as much of a problem over the water, but what about campaigns over mountainous islands like New Guinea or the Philippines?

I really, really hope they took the time to fix this. I was very patient throughout the IL-2FB development and patching cycle and the problem has still not been addressed. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
What you describe happened on real missions. Its not like humans are perfect and the AI is an imperfect representation. Three quarters of the complaints about AI I pass off as being unrealistic in expectation. Frequency of the event happening is another thing and certainly I understand the problem when half of your flight group never makes it from a low level run.

The DGEN is apparently much more detailed...and you can have a greater or lesser impact on the war based on your actions. Apparently there is a smoother flow of missions as well...escort a recon plane to the target and succeed and you'll be attacking that target on the next run.

Hopefully the generator sets the waypoints a bit higher so that there is less collision.

sukebeboy
10-16-2004, 09:26 AM
The excuse that it happened in real life is a cop out. I'm sure pilots had to trim their toenails as well, but I don't have any desire to see that modelled either.

The thing is, this is a very serious flaw in IL-2 and it is something that should have been addressed long ago yet the people at Maddox:1C seem more focussed on keeping the Hpyer-Lobby addicts satisfied.

If a plane hits the dirt due to pilot error during low level manouvering, I think that's great. It increases the realism and enjoyment of the game. If a flight of 4 planes ploughs into the side of a hill (and I've seen it happen countless times on the missions in Hungary) because the stupid DGEN generator plots a flight plan at 300 m when there is a 1,000 m hill in the way, that's just poor programming.

I'm going to buy Pacific Fighters, but if this problem still exists, the game is going right back to the store and I will be all over every website telling people to steer well clear of this game.


That warning in the readme file or whatever it was posted by Bearcat does not bode well. It's great to say "pay attention to way points" but if you are not the flight leader, then there is bugger all you can do about the rest of your flight committing suicide.

LuckyBoy1
10-16-2004, 09:46 AM
Look, what do you want out of your PC? Want it to guess where the plane should go? Want the program to be so choked with code to make up for the fact that you're too lazy to put in a waypoint or ask the AI to make the next waypoint in unrealistic speeds, atlitudes or timing? For that, you'll need a nitrogen cooled mainframe to run it! Could the code be better? No matter how good it gets the answer is always yes. All I know is yes, it is a frustrating process, but after a while, you discover by actually building missions what the AI can and can't do.

The part that's always been a mystery to me is how the B-17's fly a successfull mission and land at base fine. Then they taxi on to the pad and blow up! Probably a user error on my part. Anyone know what the deal is on that one?

VW-IceFire
10-16-2004, 09:59 AM
I play the same game that you do...and I don't have half of the problems that you are. So honestly, there isn't much that anyone can do for you. If your flight leader, your flight follows you...be smart about being flight leader.

If realism is a cop out...then not too much to do http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

sukebeboy
10-16-2004, 11:17 AM
I don't play as a flight leader. I like to start a campaign at the lowest rank and like to work my way up.

e5kimo
10-16-2004, 12:08 PM
what he wants is what all offline players want !

AI that doesnt crash into a mountain after take off when you yourself are perfectly capable of just pulling back on the stick and clear the obstacle. what he wants is AI that might have a 500m altitude waypoint but is still able to make it over a 700m hill.

that is what he asked about .. and i sure hope that PF can do that. it is not as if we havent moaned about this problem before..

swansong4raven
10-16-2004, 12:29 PM
"i bailed out with a parachute on two occaisions, once during training, and i made 14 emergency landings, but not once was i hit by an enemy fighter during battle." -erich hartmann 1914-1970. (german luftwaffe bf109 and me-109 pilot)


point being, **** happens.

VF-3Thunderboy
10-16-2004, 12:47 PM
Not sure how the AI detect mountains. They may not, so its up to you to get into the MB and work it out if it can be. If someone has posted tips on how to do this, then there you go.put a waypoint in then the aircraft should climb per waypoint instructions. If they DONT climb per waypoint, THEN its a programming issue.

DuxCorvan
10-16-2004, 01:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sukebeboy:
The excuse that it happened in real life is a cop out. I'm sure pilots had to trim their toenails as well, but I don't have any desire to see that modelled either. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Aye, so much work for nothing. What am I gonna do with my 'Toenail Trim Simulator' project? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Yellonet
10-16-2004, 01:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sukebeboy:
The excuse that it happened in real life is a cop out. I'm sure pilots had to trim their toenails as well, but I don't have any desire to see that modelled either. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well, maybe you can mod the game so that your AI friends never die. Poeple died in the real war, but that no excuse for them to do so in the game, right?

sukebeboy
10-16-2004, 06:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Yellonet:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sukebeboy:
The excuse that it happened in real life is a cop out. I'm sure pilots had to trim their toenails as well, but I don't have any desire to see that modelled either. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well, maybe you can mod the game so that your AI friends never die. Poeple died in the real war, but that no excuse for them to do so in the game, right? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for that insightful input fanboy.

The point is, in DGEN campaign generator has serious flaws in Il-2. They hsould have been addressed long, long ago but they weren't.

As I said before, I don't play as the flight leader, so I can't go in and edit the waypoints unless I want to waste a whole lot of time going into the FMB. I don't want to have to do that. I just want the game to work as promised. Is that concept so hard for you to grasp?

e5kimo
10-16-2004, 11:02 PM
dont waste your time mate. i think they dont want to understand. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

i too hope that the squad crashing is addressed.

does this airfield on the kuban map look familiar ? fly german and you get a guranteed 3 planes to slam into the hill on every mission.
http://users.on.net/~peabody/kuban.jpg

heywooood
10-16-2004, 11:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DuxCorvan:


Aye, so much work for nothing. What am I gonna do with my 'Toenail Trim Simulator'
project? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

________________________________________-

already available at WAREZ, Dux..ya shoulda used a CD key and fixed that friggin' hangnail bug. serves you right, I'd say....along with "release the birds, grandpa!!"

adlabs6
10-17-2004, 12:52 AM
Some interesting replies on this...

For what it's worth, it does not require a super computer to calculate map altitude or make AI fly above the terrain.

Just now in LockOn, I made a series of five A-10's use the AI to follow waypoints that went from over the sea, to across a small mountain, back through a valley, and over a hilly city. For each waypoint I entered an altitude of "0".

Guess what? The mission builder replaced the "0" with a safe altitude above the terrain in each case except for waypoints over the sea. In this case, three waypoints were automatically assigned alts of 65, 111, and 279 to clear the terrain as I created them.

Running the mission things were fine, not a single AI crashed. Each one climbed and decended over each terrain change, staying low in valleys... poping up to clear hills. I did not even fly in the mission to guide them, just watched from external views.

It certainly can be done with todays PC power.

I personally think that the IL2 engine isn't able to read terrain altitude and convey it to the FMB. Sadly, if it can't be patched in, then what can you do?

oddglob
10-17-2004, 05:04 AM
Sukebeboy makes a very good point. I too have shared his frustrations - AI crashing into terrain without any pre-existing damage and in high visibility conditions happens quite frequently in this sim.

It's not simply a waypoint problem. If you get into a low level dogfight with the AI in mountainous terrain then a sure way to always win is to simply fly around until they crash into the side of a mountain. You don't even need to engage them.

What I have found is that this problem increased dramatically in all the patched versions of FB but is quite rare in FB version 1.0 - i.e before the flight model enhancements. In my experience it is the flight model enhancements that have made this problem far worse. It's one thing to set appropriate waypoints in a mission, but there is a limit to how much you can control what the AI does.

It's one reason why I'm still using FB version 1.0.