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dogstar4000
10-09-2005, 10:13 AM
While Im lugging a He111 or Ju87 upto altitude online I get plenty of time to read the chat. One thing Ive noticed a lot of on UK Dedicated 1 is people complaining about being rammed. Given that among the first few air kills the Russians made in Barbarosa were through ramming, do you think its a legitimate way to earn a kill or does it deserve the same status as vulching?

dogstar4000
10-09-2005, 10:13 AM
While Im lugging a He111 or Ju87 upto altitude online I get plenty of time to read the chat. One thing Ive noticed a lot of on UK Dedicated 1 is people complaining about being rammed. Given that among the first few air kills the Russians made in Barbarosa were through ramming, do you think its a legitimate way to earn a kill or does it deserve the same status as vulching?

Taylortony
10-09-2005, 10:39 AM
I have been known to ram on occasions, but in my case its either i have totally cocked up my approach speed and cant avoid in time or i have been shot to death and i am just along for the ride, took a b17 out once and the person quite rightly got shirty with me, till i pointed out those bits he saw falling off were both ailerons and the elevators, the rudder was a ghost of its previous self and the engine was screaming its proverbials off..

all because someone flying the B17 had filled me full of lead....he saw the funny side http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

NorrisMcWhirter
10-09-2005, 11:27 AM
I'm sure it's much easier to ram someone knowing that it's not your very own life involved.

Ta,
Norris

PBNA-Boosher
10-09-2005, 12:40 PM
If it's a coop and I have defined mission objectives against a bomber, I will consider it, though trying not to kill anyone unnecessarily in the attempt.

In a dogfight against a fighter or bomber, however, with no overall objective, I consider it a heinous crime.

Above all, I do my best never to do so. Chances are if I run out of ammunition I will break and head for home.

FritzGryphon
10-09-2005, 12:42 PM
It's right up there with suicide bombing.

If I ever host a server, I explicitly spell out 'no deliberta ramming' in the rules, and boot any offenders. I wish more hosts would do that.

Especially when you are colliding with other players that can't defend themselves, like bomber pilots. It ceases to be combat and becomes griefing.

Tooz_69GIAP
10-09-2005, 01:03 PM
Ramming, and surviving is the key! If you just run into another aircraft blowing both yourself and your enemy to bits, that's pointless, but if you can bring an aircraft down by slicing it's tail off, or something, and you survive, then I reckon that is absolutely legitimate!

Taran attacks were encouraged in the VVS, and the tactic was even described in the pilot's manual!

dogstar4000
10-09-2005, 01:14 PM
Just had a very similar incident as Taylortony described. In a Bf110, Spit on my tail, everything went, engines, ailerons and elevators, then caught a glimpse of the Spit ploughing through starboard wing. Of course I thanked the Spit pilot in a very sarcastic way, and he pointed out that my rear gunner had just killed him and he watched on an external view as his plane careered into me. D'OH!

cygfrain
10-09-2005, 01:27 PM
Wihin the limitations of the sim, i am looking for realism where possible, so if it happened in real life, i.e. ramming or vulching, then I am in favour of it being used.

Kuna15
10-09-2005, 01:52 PM
I don't really care too much about this issue. Reason is quite simple, most of these taran attacks online are performed unintentionally by newbie pilots. I don't get mad at all in those occasions. Besides overall most of ram attacks (newbie & experienced players) were performed unintentionally. I had rare 'pleasure' to see some of the guys that were ramming other people on purpose. Even friendlies. But that is very rare and those guys are usually banned.

Two days ago I was in G6-AS and being chased by three Spitfires one was gaining on me so I had to take evasive actions. With a bit luck I outmaneuvered all three of them (they all have overshoot me).
One of them, I suppose wanted my skin really badly, made a sharp turn in me after he overshooted me. I was low on energy/speed so I didn't take any counter measures and he trimmed my wing-result we were both killed (we were on deck). Now that player weren't newbie just overeager; I suppose from time to time we all are... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Thing is after that he apologized and I said "No prob", even if he didn't said anything I wouldn't mind. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

jeroen-79
10-09-2005, 04:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PBNA-Boosher:
I consider it a heinous crime. </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FritzGryphon:
It's right up there with suicide bombing. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

civildog
10-09-2005, 06:21 PM
I gotta go with Tooz on this one. Taran attacks were encouraged in the VVS as a valid and useful way to down a bomber when you ran out of ammo. Obviously these were not kamikazis - the tactic was to try to use your propellor to destroy the enemy plane's tail and survive the process.

If your plane was then too damaged to fly - and this wasn't always the case - then you were supposed to bail out. A lot of VVS heroes made and survived Taran attacks and were credited for the kills.

One of the first things I tried in the game was to set up a Taran against a German Heinkel. The problem is that it's very difficult to match your speed closely enough to kiss that rudder with your prop so your whole plane doesn't blow up. It can be done, though. As in real life, this is mainly useful against bombers, not fighters. But I have been known to ram enemy fighters to protect a wingman if I was out of ammo.

Badsight.
10-09-2005, 08:12 PM
Taran in a DF with no real objective other than point-&-kill collecting is kinda lame . sign of frustration/lack of maturity

i laugh at realisim guys who take offense at getting their pilot shot in the chute tho

so far , ive only managed to do one proper Taran attack ever - where i chewed the rudder/elevators with my prop & glided back to RTB with the bandit heinkel augering in

Daiichidoku
10-09-2005, 08:39 PM
taran?

when its online its more "moron"


yea, sure, its often unintentional, due to lag, etc

but good lord!...when someone is flying a TB3 and gets rammed, there is NO excuse

wayno7777
10-09-2005, 08:51 PM
Was doing fine right up to about 30 yards out when the screen went black. Had to replay to see what happened....
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v224/wayno77/FB%20shots/95c90447.jpg

civildog
10-09-2005, 09:46 PM
Reminds me of a funny thing that happened online the other night:

My teammates and I were playing the online Stalingrad campaign in the game when we were escorting some IL2's against an airbase. As several IAR's zoomed up to meet us I nicked one in the engine as they shot through our formation.

I turned on his tail and saw he was smoking pretty heavily but not burning, so knowing how well the A.I. can make it back to base on a wing and a prayer I chased him down to finish him off.

I came up to approx. 100m behind him to fire a coup de gras and was enveloped in his smoke as I did so. He broke into several pieces that fell away in front of me and then - suddenly- the last thing I see before my plane vaporizes is the front end of a radial engine and prop spinner coming right at my head through the space the debris had been in!

Unknown to either of us a teammate was coming straight at the IAR I was following from dead 12 o'clock and was about to fire at the same time as I was. He didn't see me because I was buried in the smoke of the IAR. So when the IAR broke apart in front of him he had about a half second to be surprised when he saw my plane come out of the smoke. My plane was obliterated, but his only lost one wing and his screen went black.

JtD
10-10-2005, 12:35 AM
Beeing rammed always makes me upset and I usually say so. I hope that whoever it was realizes that he did something wrong and will be more careful to avoid that in the near future. Usually if there is a 'sorry' in the chat I forgive them instantly but if not I usually leave the server to make sure I am not saying something I might regret later. Lately about half of my deaths are related to collisions and ramming.

On the other hand I happened to rear end a few people myself so I might just try to find a more relexed attitude towards rammers (which indeed mostly are newbies or were having a bad moment themselfes).

And yes, there is hardly anything more annoying than being rammed in a TB-3. It's amazing how many people switch off their brains when they see the 400 slow, fat points.

IAFS_Painter
10-10-2005, 02:12 AM
A 'good' taran attack is one where the attacker deliberatly destroys the other plane without using ordenance (guns &c), and is neither killed, nor forced to bail.

I used to be able to make a good taran attack in IL2, but never in FB/AEP/PF. The trick was to destroy the rudder or tail-plane with the propeller.
Ramming will only get the attacker killed.

nakamura_kenji
10-10-2005, 02:46 AM
only time ram by acident not intend just make mistake.

one time i think about it very much i explain.

fly over okinawa in ki-61-I-hei already shot down f6f but thought still have ammo. spot target low do strafe run so dive down and fire high deflection shot which miss.i manage manover and fire discover no ammo &gt;_&lt;. problem now was what do. plane front me was f6f and he saw first burst so know i there, we low level 100m most so not able dive and run. before i do speed test while go was convice f6f was faster me so unable run &gt;_&lt;. so i chase plane so he keep ahead me so safe while think then thought realise if i able catch and ram tail hopefully on pull up so plane contiue get altitude i bail out and live fight other day, better remove threat for other friendly plane than leave as threat. so for next 2min i chase f6f very fast very low, must have been wonder why no fire as often easy shot if had ammo. after while got small village which flew down street in center village lower than buidling roof with engine make funy noise and heat guage try go off scale &gt;_&lt;. i reach end street i only 5 6m behind plane think he must realise what i try do as he instantly pull up vertical climb. this throw me for little bit but i did same and follow into vertical climb. i decide take chance and run hope he not notice leave fight. so as plane climb zero throttle and open radiator use momentum to carry go to about 600m then roll over dive away leaving f6f to keep climb. then i run away as fast little kawaksaki could back down village street and to nearest airfield ^_^.

sometime thought and harder than seem ^_^

F19_Ob
10-10-2005, 05:37 AM
Earlier (years ago)in my online simming I used to successfully Taran enemies, and survive , when I was out of ammo. My goal was to survive and my intentions were honorable. However, I had to revise my thinking.

Now I strongly advise against it since the risk to die is too great and it absolutely will lead to annoyance and contributes to a bad atmosphere.
There are no positive gains at all with Taran attacks online.

Although U personally may have a correct motive, the other players that don't know u will almost automatically see u as a game-destroyer and, who knows, U might even be a team-killer.
So avoid uncareful flying asmuch as possible and never use Tarans or suicide attacks online.

marc_hawkins
10-10-2005, 06:10 AM
This is just the sort of useful stuff a newbie like me needs to hear, if i can get online soon! accidental ramming sounds like just the sort of thing i'll have to look out for, being new and likley to overshoot targets and suchlike. I've been swallowing the advice about being close and then some for effective gunning, but the downside is that i have a tendancy at the mo to plough straight into the backside of my target as i am not able to control my airspeed effectivley yet... so in advance, sorry! sorry!

nakamura_kenji
10-10-2005, 06:15 AM
people get fixate(think that word) on target especial when attack 6 just fly to close before pull up or dive below and result crash in back plane. not happen much use deflection shot not getjust few more bullet fire in him syndrom fire window small because

F19_Ob
10-10-2005, 07:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by marc_hawkins:
This is just the sort of useful stuff a newbie like me needs to hear, if i can get online soon! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>



Being prepared and to have some insight when one starts is a good thing
I wish I had some advice when I started out.
There are so many things that can go wrong online and accidents will happen.
The best thing is to be forgiving and when someone apologizes for his mistakes its good tone to just write NP (=no problem) in the chat window.

A few online tips that saves the day:

# read the briefing in the maproom and locate your target on the map and write the grid down.

# After spawning and when u have engine running, turn slowly to see in front of u by pressing brakes and rudder while throttling up slowly. This will make th plane turn almost on the spot and U will be able to avoid most of the frequent takeoff accidents, such as crashing into the plane infront.

# When taking off there is a custom to take off from the taxiways and leave the big strip for landing planes and emergency landings.
Some servers however want u to takeoff from the main strip, so another reason for reading the briefing.
Some planes can lock the tailwheel and this can be of help when u are lined up for takeoff, although experienced pilots may do without it.
Anyway the takoff looks more controlled with locked tailwheel.

# After takeoff climb to atleast 2000m above your own field. This gives u the cover and warning of flak and U may protect plane landing and taking off.
When at 2000m continue to climb on your way to target area wich gives u a good oversight of the are aswell as energy to fight or escape.
Remeber to climb in wide turns wich allows u to look behind (swell as below or above) without losing too much energy. So very wide S-turns to target.
Experienced pilots will atleast climb to 2000m (many go higher) (I often go to 5000m).
From there it can be easier to pick off the ones without energy below (often inexperienced).
Sometimes, depending on plane and mission one must go low to avoid detection. For example Bf110's on a bombing raid can hide and blend in over forrests and between mountains.

# Avoid starting arguments or discussions ingame
and avoid remarking negatively and try to disregard stupid people.

#U don't have to salute your opponent that shot u down although it's polite. Avoid to salute the opponent u shot down Unless he salutes u first), especially if he was in a bomber or inferior plane.
If u want U can say something positive to the opponent u shot down and it is tactful to be humble in that situation.

Example: If I just shot down an opponent wich put up a good fight, and I want to say something, I might say; That was some good moves U did there. and / or add; it really could have gone either way. Or I might say I had some luck or got a lucky shot. I might also add some mistakes I did, like; I almost crashed myself in that last turn.

Anything that makes u seem a decent huble guy creates a good atmosphere and an opponent may feel respect being defeted by a good guy instead of a possible @sshat.

Often it's best to say nothing at all when one wins a fight, but compliment others when they do something good is good and adds positives.
The online environment is usually socially hostile, unintentionally, and needs positive balance.

# Most importantly be yourself. Being polite online goes long way, just don't overdo it http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


The above advise/suggestions is what i find most important online and what I try to follow, with random success.

marc_hawkins
10-10-2005, 10:11 AM
Yeah, that all sounds good, its great to be able to know some of the basic ground rules! I'm not the gloating type anyway, but its good to learn things like saluting can be taken the wrong way etc if you shoot somebody down.. not that i think i'll have a problem with that anytime soon http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif more likley its being unintentionally stupid and so forth. Wonder if there's a learner driver skin available anywhere?

F19_Ob
10-10-2005, 11:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by marc_hawkins:
........I'm not the gloating type anyway, but its good to learn things like saluting can be taken the wrong way etc if you shoot somebody down.. not that i think i'll have a problem with that anytime soon.......... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Saluting is really no negative thing but sloppy, unclever use of it may give it negative meanings (intentionally or unintentionally)
picture a victorius pilot that salutes the defeated, who perhaps is a bomberguy that have been shot down too many times in a day. This bloke is not up for taking salutes anymore. although it's not the winners fault the circumstances makes it an delicate thing to use salutes in an environment like this.

Most have no problems in the short run, I think, but after some bad sorties with mishaps and gotten shot down, or vulched on the ground too often, or whatever, even the average cool guy could get fed up and say or do something he would later regret.
No one is perfect and there is a limit for how much **** one can take in a day.
So that was why I wrote that thing about understanding and such.
I try to think that when someone snaps it's because he reached his limit, wich makes it easier for me to just let it go and say..... sh1t happens and move on. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

In my opinion competition , in any form, often reveals the uglier side of us. (Has to do with offense and defense and other evolutional stuff)

See u online m8

marc_hawkins
10-10-2005, 02:50 PM
True, sometimes like everything it can get fustrating i guess! shall try to be understanding in all circumstances and treat others as they'd want to be treated themselves, and then happy flying for all of us! so yep hopefully see you soon! I shouldn't be too hard to spot, i'll be the one zig zaging along trying not to stall out http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

marc_hawkins
10-10-2005, 02:52 PM
whoops, or as i meant to say: "treat others as i'd like to be treated..." Well, you know what i meant anyway!

Stigler_9_JG52
10-10-2005, 04:09 PM
Well, you can't say anything about taran not being a "tactic"; it simply was, so the discussion about how heinous/heroic it is is beside the point, just like with "vulching" or "chute shooting".

However, I'm not real sure the sim (or ANY sim ever made) handles collisions very well, so its use as a tactic as far as planning and getting certain results; that's pretty dicey.

Because of lag issues especially, the "results" of collisions are often not very realistic; one guy will fly off unscathed while another loses a wing with one unsatisfying "klunk" sound. I've both lost and benefitted from collisions during tight maneuvering and scissoring, but I never really had the feeling that what happened is what "should have" happened. Seems in a collision, *both* planes should always take some kind of damage.

Rammjaeger
02-24-2006, 12:25 PM
I'll once again dust off another old and forgotten thread...

One successful ramming attack (Fw-190 A8 offline single mission):

http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/5563/taran47ah.th.jpg (http://img407.imageshack.us/my.php?image=taran47ah.jpg)
http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/4109/taran59af.th.jpg (http://img407.imageshack.us/my.php?image=taran59af.jpg)

I didn't really preplan the attack - I still had ammo, although one MG got jammed and I was having engine troubles due to defense fire -, I simply targeted one wingtip of the B-17G out of sheer anger as I failed to inflict enough damage on the wings by MG fire. I managed to land afterwards, the B-17G obviously crashed.

jds1978
02-24-2006, 12:55 PM
if you can get away with it then kudos to you.

I'm proud to say that the 403 Sqn's soon to be completed server will not only be full switch, but will be free of silly "no vulching/no ramming" rules...We are simulating war, not The Care Bear Movie http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif