PDA

View Full Version : People who ***** about MG and Cannon In AeP



tonedogbf110
04-01-2004, 08:10 AM
just a small observation, how is it that nearly all the *****es I hear about this topic are from Axis pilots?

obviously the MK108 is not powerful enough!
well I want to say I have tested the MK108 and clean removed the wing of a TB3 with it!

as for 20mm, I have no problem with these either.

People talk about the size of the bullets from 20mm and larger calibre rounds. Yep they certainly would do a lot of damage!

but some rediculous crap about a 20mm shell being able to remove an aileron with 1 hit!
leave off! I dont know where these people are coming from but have obviously never been upclose enough to a ww2 bird to see exactly how thick the wings and armament are, or how hollow if the case is! and compare with actual bullet sizes.

the point is rather than take the part clean off it would more likely just puncture the wing/aileron etc... Therefore it would not fall off completely.

The most rediculous was I want the back of the plane to fall off when i hit it with my 30mm!
FFS!

I really dont think Russian planes were made of paper! and to be honest I think the hardest plane to shoot down is the FW190, but thats the one they complain about being too weak!. check your aim guys there is a lot of muzzle flash in the 190 and 109!

not every bullet you fire hits the target!

If you cant shoot anything down, or want the plane to explode after getting hit by a spud gun, then turn off realistic gunnery and stop moaning!

Sorry guys, just sick of all the unconstrutive *****ing about this subject!

http://www.alliedwingedlegion.com/members/signatures/tonedog_sig.jpg

tonedogbf110
04-01-2004, 08:10 AM
just a small observation, how is it that nearly all the *****es I hear about this topic are from Axis pilots?

obviously the MK108 is not powerful enough!
well I want to say I have tested the MK108 and clean removed the wing of a TB3 with it!

as for 20mm, I have no problem with these either.

People talk about the size of the bullets from 20mm and larger calibre rounds. Yep they certainly would do a lot of damage!

but some rediculous crap about a 20mm shell being able to remove an aileron with 1 hit!
leave off! I dont know where these people are coming from but have obviously never been upclose enough to a ww2 bird to see exactly how thick the wings and armament are, or how hollow if the case is! and compare with actual bullet sizes.

the point is rather than take the part clean off it would more likely just puncture the wing/aileron etc... Therefore it would not fall off completely.

The most rediculous was I want the back of the plane to fall off when i hit it with my 30mm!
FFS!

I really dont think Russian planes were made of paper! and to be honest I think the hardest plane to shoot down is the FW190, but thats the one they complain about being too weak!. check your aim guys there is a lot of muzzle flash in the 190 and 109!

not every bullet you fire hits the target!

If you cant shoot anything down, or want the plane to explode after getting hit by a spud gun, then turn off realistic gunnery and stop moaning!

Sorry guys, just sick of all the unconstrutive *****ing about this subject!

http://www.alliedwingedlegion.com/members/signatures/tonedog_sig.jpg

michapma
04-01-2004, 08:22 AM
Step into my office, we need to have a talk about the proper use of the exclamation mark.


Just teasin' mate. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/69giap/fileadmin/Image_Archive/badges/69giap_badge_chap.jpg (http://giap.webhop.info)

The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/) | Forgotten Skies (http://www.forgottenskies.com/)
But we are all that way: when we know a thing we have only scorn for other people who don't happen to know it. - Mark Twain, Personal Recollections of Joan of Arc

tonedogbf110
04-01-2004, 08:37 AM
LOL, I had not noticed I used it so much. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.alliedwingedlegion.com/members/signatures/tonedog_sig.jpg

73GIAP_Milan
04-01-2004, 08:40 AM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif Good Post, tonedogbf110 !

Ppl just seem to want ├╝berplanes all around...IRL pilots had to work hard for their kills too..
Hope this post of you shuts up alot of whiners http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

but...i'm realistic..and i hear the discussion roar up like a firestorm already http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Salute!

Regards,

Der Tote Baron a.k.a. SK_Black_Knight....
______________________________
Sky Knights Squadron Leader

Xnomad
04-01-2004, 08:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tonedogbf110:
just a small observation, how is it that nearly all the *****es I hear about this topic are from Axis pilots?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe it's because the Axis 20mm is cr@p? Well all I know is that lately I have been blasting at LA 5's with amazing accuracy with a hell of a lot of cannon and seeing them get away, today it was a P-51 bang bang bang etc yesterday it was a P-40!!!! It took me a long time to get the guy to show any damage. Face it mate it's not right read some first hand accounts how they shot down fighters with 20mm in short bursts.

Then you will tell me I'm aiming wrong. There is nothing wrong with my aim, I aim at the cockpit, engine, wings etc. it's all the same! No result!

What really gets me is this doesn't allow you to get a kill and get away quickly, as you spend so much time trying to damage your target that either a kill stealing loser comes along and ruins it with his MK 108 or you get waxed by an enemy, it's definitley not realistic like this. Read Lipferts book he often states that the plane flew across his gunsite and he let off a quick burst and the plane was in pieces and that's with MG 151/20mm.

Sure we axis pilots complain about this as a Yak's machine gun can do more damage to a Bf 109, than a 20mm can from a Bf 109 against a Yak, I do fly red sometimes and I've never had to complain about their fire power.

The whole phrase "get him on your first pass" is nigh impossible with the current state of affairs. I'm really surprised at how easy it is for Reds, I climbed into a Spitfire saw a 109 at long distance crossing took a shot to scare him (I didn't expect to hit him) and his engine started billowing smoke. Easy! Oops forgot to mention that this happens almost everytime I climb into a red plane, it happens far too often for me to consider it a lucky shot anymore.

http://www.xnomad.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/sig.jpg

Abbuzze
04-01-2004, 09:16 AM
Hmm, just take a look at the flying tank called Me109... with the Mk108 its hard to down.. both hits at this picture were HE hits (lots of fragments!). But maybe- the DM of the 109 it wrong and it is just to sturdy! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Even in the worst times in il2 the 109 was the only plane which were allways threatend by the 30mm now you take a hit nearly w/o problem!

http://mitglied.lycos.de/p123/bilder/MK108vsMe109.jpg

JG53 PikAs Abbuzze
I./Gruppe

http://www.jg53-pikas.de/

http://mitglied.lycos.de/p123/Ani_pikasbanner_langsam.gif

CaptainGelo
04-01-2004, 09:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Abbuzze:
Hmm, just take a look at the flying tank called Me109... with the Mk108 its hard to down.. both hits at this picture were HE hits (lots of fragments!). But maybe- the DM of the 109 it wrong and it is just to sturdy! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Even in the worst times in il2 the 109 was the only plane which were allways threatend by the 30mm now you take a hit nearly w/o problem!

http://mitglied.lycos.de/p123/bilder/MK108vsMe109.jpg

JG53 PikAs Abbuzze
I./Gruppe

http://www.jg53-pikas.de/

http://mitglied.lycos.de/p123/Ani_pikasbanner_langsam.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

well, next hit'll kill himhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/93.gif

http://img23.photobucket.com/albums/v68/wolf4ever/Animation3.gif

KGr.HH-Sunburst
04-01-2004, 09:23 AM
ROFLMAO
best thread ever

the MG151/20mm is crap we all know that its a fact no need to bring this up again
do you even tested the mg151 online against some yaks ore La's ?
take a 109G2 go fight against a La5 or something and come back and say
"its a good wapon i can rip a la5 apart with 3/4 rounds as it should be"

http://www.freewebs.com/fightingpumas/
http://img31.photobucket.com/albums/v94/sunburst/sig-97th.jpg

tonedogbf110
04-01-2004, 09:24 AM
Some good points here, I never seem to have a problem with the 20mm, though planes are a little tougher it seems, its not that much more.

I'm not saying OKL pilots cant aim, I just dont think the complaints are in a constructive manner in most cases.

and it all really depends on the range and convergance settings.

I never open fire until i'm at 300 max! and my convergance is set to reflect this. at that range bits fall off all right! a short burst in any plane with 20mm is enough to severely damage or clean take out the target.

There are exceptions of course, the FW190 for example, you have to aim well and hit a vital part!

as for the YAK the MG is effective simply because of the rate of fire. More chance to hit the same spot in less time rather than spray and pray.

keep the comments coming.

http://www.alliedwingedlegion.com/members/signatures/tonedog_sig.jpg

Skii_
04-01-2004, 09:26 AM
Normally I'd agree, but have you ever tried shooting down a Spitfire with a 190 ?

You'll be pumping shells into him all day..

http://www.skiisworld.plus.com/pilot2%20copy.jpg
XP Pro / 2200XP / Fx5950 Ultra, 1Gb Pc2700 DDR / Abit KD7A Kt400 / Carppy old case

KGr.HH-Sunburst
04-01-2004, 09:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Abbuzze:
Hmm, just take a look at the flying tank called Me109... with the Mk108 its hard to down.. both hits at this picture were HE hits (lots of fragments!). But maybe- the DM of the 109 it wrong and it is just to sturdy! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Even in the worst times in il2 the 109 was the only plane which were allways threatend by the 30mm now you take a hit nearly w/o problem!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif

http://www.freewebs.com/fightingpumas/
http://img31.photobucket.com/albums/v94/sunburst/sig-97th.jpg

Yum_Yum
04-01-2004, 09:49 AM
Hello http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I have had FB since August 2003
I have used all the versions of the FW 190 since then and continue to use them in AEP.
I have no choice of preference over server settings.

Through all the changes and patches I have contiuned to use the FW 190 because I like them.
If there is something wrong with the flight Model I don't even notice since I am a not a real Pilot!.

I see changes good and bad, but I try to use all the strengths of the FW in whatever version of patch. When someone is shooting at me I don't wonder what guns they have .. I just try to avoid getting shot in the first place.

If I have difficulty shooting a plane type, I use QMB and choose 8 of them at Ace level to practice, I die a lot but I learn a lot.

I have my convergence set to 1000m and can shoot accurately up to 800m with 20mm or 30mm. am a poor player, but a good shot.

I don't know how powerful the shots should be or what damage I should see, I only know that if I shoot enough and accuratetly, I will shoot the enemy down.

I think the damage model in AEP is more fairer than it was in FB, and damage occures more frequently but may look like no damage was caused.

Thanks http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Dylan_D
04-01-2004, 10:10 AM
Well just last night I was flying a QMB mission, I was in the He-162 and was attacking a formation of B-17's. As you know, the 162 is armed with only 2 MG 151/20mm's. Yet, I didn't have much trouble downing the B-17's. Diving down from above and behind, I aimed at their wings/engines and easily set their engines on fire. Removing an aileron wasn't too dificult either. And if I could land enough hits in one pass, I could take off a wing. I managed to down 2 B-17's in a single pass (a separate pass for each one, I'm not that good http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif), but most took 2 passes. The most it took to down one, was 3 passes. The 20mm seems fine to me...but I have yet to try in online against LA's with AEP.

NorrisMcWhirter
04-01-2004, 10:47 AM
Hi,

Of course all the rants are from Axis pilots; they are the ones experiencing the problem. I fly the 190 online and have done for many months now and I have to subjectively say that the weapons feel less effective. This is on the basis of being able to completely destroy/incapacitate aircraft on one pass in v1.22 but it taking a couple of passes with AEP. As Yum says (Hi Yum!), it may be that visual damage may be different but I've seen planes flying around quite happily as though they have not lost control surface response.

Maybe my aim just went to sh*t between the versions?

Of course, it's difficult to prove all this unless:

a. You can test, with a high level of repeatabilty, damage effects of shooting the cannons into a particular target.

b. You can verify that the DM of the 'particular target' has not been modified between v1.22 and v2.0.

c. Someone from 1C who actually knows the programmed gunnery parameters [rather than some lackey spouting third hand info] saying that nothing has been changed.

If it's c, it suggests that DMs may have been modified..If so, which ones and in what direction?

One thing that would be interesting is to know the demographics of the play testing team as it has been suggested, many times, that whining in the forum can cause FMs/DMs etc to be modified...I'd hate to think that Axis a/c would suffer as a result of play testers feeling that their beloved nations' a/c weren't good enough.

Where's my tin opener?

Cheers,
Norris


================================================== ==========

: Chris Morris - Blue Jam : http://cabinessence.cream.org/

More irreverence:
http://www.tvgohome.com/

nixon-fiend.
04-01-2004, 12:10 PM
It isn't just the axis that suffer..

Using the p39's 37mm in aep i've noticed it is MUCH weaker..

Online i landed 3 (yes 3!!!) hits on a 109's wing before it broke off! Other instances have occured but that one springs to mind.

That is from about 100-200m

JV44Rall
04-01-2004, 12:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Xnomad:
Maybe it's because the Axis 20mm is cr@p? . . . Face it mate it's not right read some first hand accounts how they shot down fighters with 20mm in short bursts. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep. I think it was in Luftwaffe Fighter Aces by Mike Spick there's an account of a LW pilot who, fresh to the Eastern Front around 1942, got a lesson from an experienced pilot on how to down IL2s. It took one pass if you aimed at the gas tank right behind the pilot. They flamed three IL2s in a row.

Not in FB.

But then you don't see many P-47s sawing off the wing of LW planes in one pass in FB either.

My impressions of the last two months revolve around dawns. Pink dawns, grey dawns, misty, rainy and windy dawns, but always dawns; first light. Shadowy Spitfires and quietness . . . . Geoffrey Wellum, First Light.

Flamin_Squirrel
04-01-2004, 12:44 PM
One of the German experten (think it might have been Molders) like to just use MG.

Why dont you try that tonedog, then come back and tell me the Axis guns are alright. Oh, and you'd better hope your opponent is asleep... you'll need a good five mins to down em.

Dont even bother trying to shoot down a P38 in an MG151 equiped 109 either. If they fly straight, chances are you'll run out of ammo before you can down them.

VW-IceFire
04-01-2004, 01:14 PM
I fly all sides and test virtually all planes (except the 109Z) and I can say for certain that all weapons are less effective than before. Overall you can still kill a plane with 3 well placed lucky cannon rounds but generally it takes alot more to down aircraft like we used to do...

It needs tweaking here and there...I'm getting used to having to pour more fire per target but overall it is indeed better. Just needs tweaking http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/tmv-sig1.jpg
RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"

Yum_Yum
04-01-2004, 01:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NorrisMcWhirter:
Hi,

Of course all the rants are from Axis pilots; they are the ones experiencing the problem. I fly the 190 online and have done for many months now and I have to subjectively say that the weapons feel less effective. This is on the basis of being able to completely destroy/incapacitate aircraft on one pass in v1.22 but it taking a couple of passes with AEP. As Yum says (Hi Yum!), it may be that visual damage may be different but I've seen planes flying around quite happily as though they have not lost control surface response.

Maybe my aim just went to sh*t between the versions?

Of course, it's difficult to prove all this unless:

a. You can test, with a high level of repeatabilty, damage effects of shooting the cannons into a particular target.

b. You can verify that the DM of the 'particular target' has not been modified between v1.22 and v2.0.

c. Someone from 1C who actually knows the programmed gunnery parameters [rather than some lackey spouting third hand info] saying that nothing has been changed.

If it's c, it suggests that DMs may have been modified..If so, which ones and in what direction?

One thing that would be interesting is to know the demographics of the play testing team as it has been suggested, many times, that whining in the forum can cause FMs/DMs etc to be modified...I'd hate to think that Axis a/c would suffer as a result of play testers feeling that their beloved nations' a/c weren't good enough.

Where's my tin opener?

Cheers,
Norris


================================================== ==========

: Chris Morris - Blue Jam : http://cabinessence.cream.org/

More irreverence:
http://www.tvgohome.com/

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Norris http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I have noticed in every patch that my FW 190 handels slightly differently than the patch before it http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif.
Broad terms are used like tweaked, fixed, toned down, enhanced, improoved changes to flight models .. but difficult to pin down everything.
Usually I have to fly to see whats changed and then find out if it was good or bad and wait for the next patch ....which has the same effects on and on and on and on http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

Xnomad
04-01-2004, 01:30 PM
Yup I'm now going to whine for the reds too I flew the P-63 today and the cannon sucks although I must add that I took off the whole radiator from one wing of my target and watched it spiral down, that was pretty cool, I've never seen that before but I rarely shoot at my darling 109 anyway.

And now I'll whine for the blues again, today I fired a MK 108 perfectly flat smack bang into the middle of a Spitfires wing, he continued to dogfight with me and got away. Later I was hit in the wing by another Spitfire with one Hispano round and I lost so much control that I crashed.

Fehler
04-01-2004, 01:33 PM
I read in ORR that Oleg stated there is a bug in (On-line) damage of secondary explosions of all cannon rounds.

The LW pilot will feel this the most as their rounds were thin skinned and depended on explosions to create vast amounts of damage. The Allied 20mm's have a higher rate of fire and muzzle velocity, so the damage effects may not be noticed as much.

So, hate to burst the bubble of the original poster, but since LW ammo is in a 50/50 AP/HE, that means that 50% of the rounds are not doing damage now. Thus the complaining.

The bug will eb fixed in the patch, and B&Z tactics restored.

BTW, that is the same reason you see the DM of the 109 being so tough. Half the rounds are not exploding, even though the arcade arrows make it look that way.

Seems like a reasonable answer to a lengthy question. Have fun flying!

http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/FehlerSig.gif
http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/9JG54.html

Hunde_3.JG51
04-01-2004, 03:02 PM
Just wanted to agree with Fehler and point out the stupidity of the original post. It is pretty much a known bug I believe, and in case you missed it there are just as many "the .50 cals are CRAP" threads. I'm not taking sides, I think both have a right to complain as they seem underpowered (as do all 20mm's, heavy mg's, etc.). I don't think it is just an online thing though, I think planes take too much damage online and offline, but thats just my opinion and others are free to disagree. Still, its always nice/fun to see someone make an a$$ out of themselves by selectively yelling and pointing the finger at someone.

Nice "Allied" wing legion sig btw. Have a look in the mirror next time before gracing us with your ignorance.

http://www.brooksart.com/Icewarriors.jpg

Formerly Kyrule2
http://www.jg51.com/

ajafoofoo
04-01-2004, 04:15 PM
Yup, people who complain about the cannons are right, there is a bug and it is not about aim.

Most pilots aim well enough to notice the problem.

Same thing with 50 cal guns, most think the dispersion is ridiculous when russian versions that Oleg says should function simular shoot freaking laser beam accurate fire.

There is no way except maybe on some worn out damaged m2 guns that the spread should be so bad.

I'm sure there will be another thread from this guy about how people in fw190 are idiots for letting their gunsights get shot out all the time.

ImpStarDuece
04-01-2004, 06:43 PM
As a reguler poster on a millitary-themed web site (tank-net.org if ur interested, it kicks arse) i have come across the work of a guy called Anthony Williams. A published Authority on milliatry firearms, particularly in regard to airborn machine guns and cannons, he has done a defenitive study of the effectiveness of WW2 fighter armament.

All the major airborn weapons of WW2 are in the study. Browning .303 and .50, all the German 20mm and 30mm cannon, the 37mm T9, ShvaK and B-20 20mm cannon, UBT ect, ect. All are organised with regard to a firepower index per gun and also with reference to their effectivness when mounted on various planes.

Stop whining go and do some research or benefit from the knowledge of others. With my own reading and research ( i did my thesis on the economic and warfighting impact of the Circus raids of France and Germany post battle of Britain) i would have to say that Oleg and the team have pretty much got the damage modeling of the various weapons about right. There are some exceptions but even when these do occur they are relatively minor.

His website is here http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/

and the article is here
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm

Read it, learn it, love it but please stop complaining about your guns.

boltonlam
04-01-2004, 06:59 PM
close...close..close to your enemy !
many aces in wwII said they always get close to enemy to shoot it down.
at close range,gun power were stronger than long range.

Hunde_3.JG51
04-01-2004, 07:53 PM
Boltonlam, not to sound ignorant but many of the people who notice a big change in weapons/DMing are long time veterans who know that you only shoot when in close. You are correct, but like I said most people voicing their concerns know this.

ImpStarDuece, so which version does Oleg have weapon/DMing right in? 1.22 or 2.0 because the two are very different? If they are right in 2.0 then guns have been overpowered since original IL-2 was released, if it was right in 1.22 then AEP is certainly off.

And again I think it is a known bug at this point so everything may not be right as you say. When the patch is released I guess we will know whether 1.22 or 2.0 is/was right or intended. So please don't tell people not to voice their concerns when something has obviously changed, they both (1.22 and 2.0) can't be right.

http://www.brooksart.com/Icewarriors.jpg

Formerly Kyrule2
http://www.jg51.com/

WUAF_Badsight
04-01-2004, 07:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tonedogbf110:

obviously the MK108 is not powerful enough!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

i agree 110% there dude

this is ONE Mk108 shell detonated in a Spitfire


http://img7.photobucket.com/albums/v18/Badsight/oneMK108inSpit.jpg

Longjocks
04-01-2004, 08:01 PM
Excellent, dudes! A thread whining about whiners. That'll teach 'em! Can I start one too? I'll whine about the whiners whining about whiners. Then someone can start another thread and whine about me whining about the whiners whining about the whiners. We can then keep doing this until we get cross-eyed and go home.

Nah, I'd much rather talk about the erection I got when my mate just now hit me with a strip of plastic.

"Thanks for the inspiration to rise above you all."